CCH At A License Check


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MikeNice
May 12, 2011, 08:20 AM
I ran in to a license check this morning while taking my kid to pre-school. I wanted to post and see if anyone else has had a similar experience.

While I was waiting in the line of cars I reached in to my pocket and pulled out my wallet. I retrieved my license and carry permit. I then tossed my wallet up on to the dash board. I rolled my window down and put my left arm on the window sill with both cards in my hand.

When I got to the cops the first words out of my mouth were, "I am a concealed carry permit holder and I have my gun with me."

The officer took both cards and before he looked at them he asked me to pull up and off of the road. I complied and even said "yes sir." I parked and put both hands on top of the steering wheel with my fingers interlocked.

He walked over to the car and asked me where my gun was located. I told him that it was in a holster beside my right leg. He then asked me to rais my arms over my head so that he could see the gun. I did as I was asked and everything seemed fine.

He asked me when I recieved my carry permit and I said that it was either late October or early November. He shook his head and asked me to exit the car. I reminded him of the location of the gun. He called another officer to observe while I exited the car.

When I exited the car he told me to walk to the rear of the car and place my hands on the trunk. He then reached in the car and removed the gun and holster. He inspected the gun. He removed it and held it pointed sideways torwards the car. He actually muzzle swept my kid twice.

After he inspected the gun he said he hadn't seen one like it before. He then asked if I had modified the barell in any way. I told him that I hadn't it was just a semi rare Taurus 85 with a three inch barell. He nodded and asked the other cop to stand by while he went to run the numbers.

He came back and asked me where I had bought the gun. I told him that I had bought it from a friend that picked two of them up at an estate sale. He nodded again and asked if my friend had an FFL. I responed that he didn't but that we were both CCH holders and no laws were violated. He nodded and looked at me for a second.

(This part was the icing on the cake.)

He asked me, "do you think you are properly trained to carry a gun."

I responded, "According to the state of North Carolina I am responsible enough, I have trained enough, and I can shoot well enough. I know I can put fifty of fifty inside the nine ring or better. Most cops I work with can't do that. So you tell me."

He then asked which department I worked with. I told him which department I worked with and explained my position with the department. He simply said, "sorry for the mix up" and handed me back my gun.

Suddenly it was fine for me to carry even though I am not a LEO. It seems that in his mind just working for a police department makes me worthy to carry a gun.

I got his badge number and car number. I am actually in the process of typing up a formal complaint.

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Ford4x4
May 12, 2011, 08:42 AM
Good for you on the complaint. Sweeping your kid is a really bad deal. I considered not appendix or pocket carrying my j frame, because of the possibility of getting shot in the carotid artery while a cop disarms me.

When he asked you if you were properly trained to carry a gun I might have mentioned that I can at least follow the four rules and not point it at anyone, unlike him. However, that would be kind of like going to the zoo and putting your finger between the bars, just to see what would happen.

dusty14u
May 12, 2011, 08:43 AM
Which part of Carolina? My fiancee live in Greenville and I was ticketed for a minor traffic offense and my experience was pretty good.Once I informed the officer nothing else was said of the matter. He did have a second unit there and I kept my hands on the steering wheel and that was it.

On Open Carry forum I have read of some pretty nasty treatment by LEO in the North Carolina forum. I think you are more than justified in filing a complaint. Totally unproffessional and asking questions that were irrelevant to anything going on. It seems he has a personel agenda and was persuing his own agenda.

MikeNice
May 12, 2011, 08:51 AM
It was in Orange County. I honestly never would have expected it there. I have been through checks in Durham and Raleigh with zero issues.

Superpsy
May 12, 2011, 08:53 AM
geez louise. Please file a complaint.

M2 Carbine
May 12, 2011, 09:05 AM
I got his badge number and car number. I am actually in the process of typing up a formal complaint.
Definitely file a complaint. The Officer was WAY out of bounds. I would demand a written apology for such unnecessary high handed treatment.
(I was a city Policeman myself years ago)


I have been stopped, for one reason or another, over a dozen times, by all manner of LEO. They were always very polite when they saw my carry license.


He actually muzzle swept my kid twice.

OH YEAH, this REALLY makes me mad.

HD Fboy
May 12, 2011, 09:14 AM
My son got pulled over several months ago for rolling thru a stop sign.. Cop comes up and my son does the same thing. Officer asks where is the firearm. Son tells him center console. Officer asked if he can retrieve the gun my son says sure. Cop retrieves weapon, and says wow this is what I carry as an off duty piece. "Nice choice!" He then let my son go, no ticket.

Bubba613
May 12, 2011, 10:42 AM
Some cops just have an attitude that private citizens cannot be trusted with guns,no matter what the law says.
Sad.

JellyJar
May 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
The only time I have ever been stopped while carrying was in East Texas outside the city of Nacodoches. Once I informed the officer about my gun and showed him my CHL it was a total non-issue.

Got to love Texas! :)

Mudinyeri
May 12, 2011, 11:25 AM
I would most likely have asked that he please not point the barrel of the weapon at my kid. Did he at least remove the magazine and empty the chamber before he "waved" the gun around?

Hangingrock
May 12, 2011, 11:29 AM
I’ve never experienced that problem in this part of NC nor did I experience a problem when pulled over for speeding by the NCHP on I-40 when returning from Raleigh.

On a stop/check I give them NC-CHP, drivers license, insurance card, and registration. The only question I’ve ever been asked is “what are you packing”.

Jeff F
May 12, 2011, 11:37 AM
Thats one reason I like it here, no duty to inform. Its a can of worms I don't want opened.

dodo bird
May 12, 2011, 11:54 AM
License check???? Your experience sounds horrible. File a complaint for sure. But why would you ever have a licience check if there was no laws broken?

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 11:56 AM
It was in Orange County.

There's your problem. That's Liberal Country there! ;)

I live in Wake County and haven't had any issues yet. I tell my CCH students that if they're pulled over to roll down the window and press your palms against the steering wheel at the 10:00 and 2:00 position and spread your fingers without making a move. When the officer comes to the car, inform him or her that you're a CCH holder and whether or not you are carrying. DON'T MOVE YOUR HANDS. The LEO will then ask for your permit and license, but ASK IF YOU CAN MOVE YOUR HANDS TO RETRIEVE THEM. The LEO will ask where the gun is if you're carrying, but TELL HIM/HER WHERE IT IS WITHOUT REACHING FOR IT (usually the LEO will retrieve it personally). In other words, don't move your hands at all unless you explicitly ask if you may and only for the item in question.

It's a big, fat PITA in North Carolina, but it's getting better here. At least we will soon be able to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. Baby steps...baby steps...

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 12:00 PM
On a stop/check I give them NC-CHP, drivers license, insurance card, and registration. The only question I’ve ever been asked is “what are you packing”.

I would've recommended against that. See post #14.

Hangingrock
May 12, 2011, 12:03 PM
License check???? Your experience sounds horrible.

Driver-Licence check points SOP in NC

henschman
May 12, 2011, 12:08 PM
What a disgrace. First you are stopped without any suspicion of being in violation of any law, and required to show papers. Then you have to show that you have permission from the state that you are armed and inform the policeman that you are. Then, still without any suspicion of any wrongoing of any kind, nor with any warrant, you are subjected to a search and seizure of your property. Absolutely ridiculous and disgraceful that this happens in what we fancy to be a free country. The fact that this sort of thing goes on in my country makes me livid... not only at those who made such laws, but those who unquestioningly enforce them. I could never be in the business of law enforcement these days. There are too many laws that I would be required to enforce which I consider to be a violation of the rightful liberty of the citizens of this country.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 12:19 PM
What a disgrace. First you are stopped without any suspicion of being in violation of any law, and required to show papers. Then you have to show that you have permission from the state that you are armed and inform the policeman that you are. Then, still without any suspicion of any wrongoing of any kind, nor with any warrant, you are subjected to a search and seizure of your property. Absolutely ridiculous and disgraceful that this happens in what we fancy to be a free country. The fact that this sort of thing goes on in my country makes me livid... not only at those who made such laws, but those who unquestioningly enforce them. I could never be in the business of law enforcement these days. There are too many laws that I would be required to enforce which I consider to be a violation of the rightful liberty of the citizens of this country.

North Carolina used to be a decent state to live in, however we have now been overrun by yankees from New York*, New Jersey*, etc., who have brought their liberal, anti-gun agenda with them.

*I commend and respect my freedom-loving gun owners in NY and NJ. This comment was not directed at you. It was directed to your liberal brethren who have fled your state and have infected ours.

ny32182
May 12, 2011, 12:24 PM
Prime example of why "requirement to inform" laws are a terrible idea.

phoglund
May 12, 2011, 12:24 PM
I have to agree with 9mm+. A driver's license check? Really? North Carolina blocks roads to check everybody's driver's licenses? I'd thought only authoritarian autocratic governments had random document check points strewn about. :barf:

:cuss:

I'm beginning to think I'll have to start a list of 'No Visit' states!

mljdeckard
May 12, 2011, 12:30 PM
I would also seek to learn which judge requested this checkpoint, and look through the notices in your newspaper to see if advance public notice was given.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 12:36 PM
I would also seek to learn which judge requested this checkpoint, and look through the notices in your newspaper to see if advance public notice was given.

These are determined at the police department level. They're legal here without consent required from a state judge. See below:

There is no constitutional mandate requiring law enforcement officers to obtain permission from a supervising officer before conducting a driver's license checkpoint; furthermore, written guidelines are not required and the legislature did not intend for N.C.G.S. ß 20-16.3A to apply to all license checks.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 12:42 PM
I was pulled over in VA once for speeding. In VA you do not have to inform them but when they run your lic your CHP data shows up so I always inform. The officer was young and inexperienced. While holding my lic and permit my hands are on the wheel so he can clearly see them. He asks for my lic & registration and I move my left hand giving him the items he requested + my CHP.

He asks are you armed and where is the gun? I told him I was armed and that the gun is on my hip secured in a holster. He asks me to step out of the car because he wants to take posession of the gun. I comply and he has me put my hands on the car and reaches to unholster my gun and take possession of it. His eyes just about bug out of his head at this point because he sees the hammer is cocked. I am carrying a DW 1911 CBOB.

He then proceeds to remove the mag but cannot clear the weapon because he does not disengage the thumb safety. He looks confused and at this point I ask him do you want me to clear the weapon. He says yes. So he hands it back to me I point it in a safe direction and clear it. I then hand the round and the gun back to him. I am pretty sure he had never held a 1911 in his short life. IMHO he had no business taking posession of a gun he had no idea how to operate.

He then asks me to sit in the front seat of the patrol car. He writes me my ticket and then hands the unloaded gun, mag and unchambered round back to me. As I am signing the ticket he says to me. "It's your gun and you can carry it anyway you want but carrying it with the hammer cocked is dangerous and sooner or later you are going to shoot yourself or someone else." :what:

At this point I have my ticket my gun back but I cannot keep my mouth shut any longer. I proceed to explain to him that the gun is a 1911. I explain the grip safety and the thumb safety to him. I even ask if he will allow me to demonstrate how they work. I show him that with the thumb safety disengaged but no pressure on grip safety the trigger will not drop the hammer. I then show him that with the thumb safety engaged and pressure on the grip safety the hammer will not fall. I then show him the 3 diliberate actions required to fire the gun. I explain to him that yes it would be dangerous to carry his Sig P229 with the hammer cocked because it is a DA/SA gun but that in many ways one could argue that the cocked and locked 1911 is safer than his Sig.

He just looks at me and repeats "It's your gun and you can carry it anyway you want but carrying it with the hammer cocked is dangerous and sooner or later you are going to shoot yourself or someone else."

Needless to say I filed a report with the VA State Police. He did not sweep me with the gun but he had no business taking posession of a gun he did not know how to operate. He also should have skipped the lecture since again he had ZERO knowledge of the 1911. Instead of simply leaving me in the car with my hands where he can see them he not only took the gun but felt the need to clear it. Then when he could not clear it handed it back to me to clear it. If I had bad intentions towards him I would have shot him with the chambered round. This fact seemed to be lost on him. By handing it back to me he negated the need to secure it in the first place. It was a clear case of a young ignorant officer who believed because he wore a badge he knew best.

Every other time in VA during a traffic stop the officer has simply asked where is the gun. I told them it was in a holster on my hip. They told me to leave it there and keep my hands where they could see them.

The Lone Haranguer
May 12, 2011, 12:49 PM
I don't know what NC law is regarding this, but it seems likely this could have been avoided by not volunteering such information.

ForumSurfer
May 12, 2011, 01:05 PM
He then asked which department I worked with. I told him which department I worked with and explained my position with the department. He simply said, "sorry for the mix up" and handed me back my gun. :fire::cuss::banghead:

I hate that. I did some work with government in my past. I was pulled over once and the guy recognized me. He literally stopped writing the ticket. It felt disgusting. Are you a better class of person deserving of special consideration because you work with law enforcement? That's why I hate those little black stickers with the blue bars that the LEO's significant other displays. Is an LEO's marital partner more deserving of leniency than we lowly peasants' marital partners? Same goes for those "NC Justice System" license plate frames or the special tags for judges. This is a free society and we all deserve the same treatment during a traffic stop. I have many friends in law enforcemnt and I have the utmost respect for them, but they and their SO's should be subject to the same treatment and scrutiny as the rest of us.

/rant

I got his badge number and car number. I am actually in the process of typing up a formal complaint.Good for you!!!! Keep me informed, by pm if necessary.

I don't know what NC law is regarding this, but it seems likely this could have been avoided by not volunteering such information.We have a duty to inform in NC.

Edit:: one more thing...

He then asked if I had modified the barell in any way.

So what if you did? At that point, I might have lied and said "yes" since you hadn't done anything you could be ticketed or charged for. You were detained for no good reason and your child was left unattended in your car at the roadside while some self righteous LEO (mind you, all of them aren't...you ran into a bad apple) pointed your weapon at your kid. Man I'm furious just thinking about it. I hope you follow through on the complaint. The officer needs to be taught a lesson and have someone lecture him in this case, not you.

youngda9
May 12, 2011, 01:18 PM
Laws requiring you to notify are BS...all in the name of police safety. A BG will lie anyways. There is absolutely no upside to informing if you don't have to.

Grey_Mana
May 12, 2011, 01:21 PM
He asked me, "do you think you are properly trained to carry a gun."
Easy way for him to get his arrest numbers up. If you say no, he can ask why, and if you tell him why, he can lead you further down the road toward admiting something that can be used against you.

Ben86
May 12, 2011, 01:33 PM
This is why I don't bring it up unless the cop asks if I'm armed, which hasn't happened yet. In MS there is no requirement to inform and I appreciate that. Otherwise I would be open to harassment and criticism from every officer that doesn't agree with CC laws, and there are more of those than you might think.

I'd of course tell the officer before he commenced to searching me about my CCW, I don't want to surprise him.

It's really telling that the guy said "Sorry for the mix up." As if it is ok to harass people if they don't work for the PD.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 01:37 PM
There is absolutely no upside to informing if you don't have to.

I do not agree with this. A traffic stop is vunerable position for an officer. If you are carrying and do not inform but the officer one way or another sees the gun you are greatly upping the chances of you getting shot or at the very least having a gun drawn on you.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 01:40 PM
I hate that. I did some work with government in my past. I was pulled over once and the guy recognized me. He literally stopped writing the ticket. It felt disgusting. Are you a better class of person deserving of special consideration because you work with law enforcement? That's why I hate those little black stickers with the blue bars that the LEO's significant other displays. Is an LEO's marital partner more deserving of leniency than we lowly peasants' marital partners? Same goes for those "NC Justice System" license plate frames or the special tags for judges. This is a free society and we all deserve the same treatment during a traffic stop. I have many friends in law enforcemnt and I have the utmost respect for them, but they and their SO's should be subject to the same treatment and scrutiny as the rest of us.


My brother was a cop and then a Marine. He could drive up and down I95 without fear of getting a ticket. If he was pulled over he simply showed his credentials and they would let him go. Special rules for special people. :barf:

hso
May 12, 2011, 01:44 PM
I got his badge number and car number. I am actually in the process of typing up a formal complaint.

Good for you. Feed the complaint to the NC RKBA organizations as well.

NavyLCDR
May 12, 2011, 01:48 PM
I don't know what NC law is regarding this, but it seems likely this could have been avoided by not volunteering such information.

The situation could also have been avoided if the police had not violated the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution and actually obeyed the law themselves rather than engaging in criminal activity.

However, I also subscribe to the belief that my lawfully carried firearm is none of a police officer's business. If I am not required to inform by law, I won't.

dodo bird
May 12, 2011, 01:51 PM
I think everyone is missing the point of getting pulled over with no cause. Reminds me of Mexico.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
I do not agree with this. A traffic stop is vunerable position for an officer. If you are carrying and do not inform but the officer one way or another sees the gun you are greatly upping the chances of you getting shot or at the very least having a gun drawn on you.

I agree 100%. In NC, if the LEO spots a firearm in the car or on your body and you haven't informed him/her that you're carrying, you're going to get shoved to the asphalt very quickly while staring at the business end of a service pistol. We're always petitioning to get more reasonable gun laws in NC with some modest successes, but until then we should play by the rules. No need to take a bullet over this -- literally or figuratively. The fight belongs in the ballot box.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 01:58 PM
I think everyone is missing the point of getting pulled over with no cause. Reminds me of Mexico

Use the public roads or highway system is not a right. Lic checks and sobriety check points have been upheld many times over as Constitutional. I do not like them but when done properly they are not Unconstitutional.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 01:59 PM
I don't like the need to inform, but I will comply with it. Consequently, we're contemplating a move to a more gun-friendly state. While there have been changes in NC for the better, the pace of change is much slower than I would care for. The liberal/anti-gun migration to NC is greater than the conservative/pro-gun; I'm actually surprised that we've seen any positive changes to date, but we have had a few. It's an anomaly, though, and I don't see this sustaining. In the Triangle area, I feel completely outnumbered by the anti's.

Zach S
May 12, 2011, 02:02 PM
I do not agree with this. A traffic stop is vunerable position for an officer. If you are carrying and do not inform but the officer one way or another sees the gun you are greatly upping the chances of you getting shot or at the very least having a gun drawn on you.
And yet, if you surrender your firearm, your four year old may get swept by the muzzle, twice, or you may have an officer hand you a hot sidearm so you can clear it for his safety...

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 02:07 PM
And yet, if you surrender your firearm, your four year old may get swept by the muzzle, twice, or you may have an officer hand you a hot sidearm so you can clear it for his safety...

All poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 02:07 PM
And yet, if you surrender your firearm, your four year old may get swept by the muzzle, twice, or you may have an officer hand you a hot sidearm so you can clear it for his safety...

The alternative is to not inform and break the law, which could get your CCH license revoked or worse. These actions hurt all lawful CCH holders who worked very hard to get this law passed and carry responsibly every day.

Hangingrock
May 12, 2011, 02:08 PM
North Carolina used to be a decent state to live in, however we have now been overrun by yankees from New York*, New Jersey*, etc., who have brought their liberal, anti-gun agenda with them.

There has not been a Republican Governor of NC elected since 1988. All the governorís since then have been Democrat and I believe native born of this state. This you can not blame on the Yankees. This is more or less self-inflicted.

The Republicans now have control of the State Senate and House of Representatives now when was the last time that occurred. The ills in NC can not be blamed on Yankees. Place the blame where it lays at the feet of the native born.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 02:09 PM
We're contemplating a move to a more gun-friendly state. While there have been changes in NC for the better, the pace of change is much slower than I would care for. The liberal/anti-gun migration to NC is greater than the conservative/pro-gun; I'm actually surprised that we've seen any positive changes to date, but we have had a few. It's an anomaly, though, and I don't see this sustaining. In the Triangle area, I feel completely outnumbered by the anti's.

Lic checks and their Constitutionality has nothing to do with guns IMHO. Many states that are pro gun practice these types of stops. VA and WV come to mind.

ny32182
May 12, 2011, 02:12 PM
If cop sees your gun, you have "informed" him; just not in an ideally controlled fashion.

We should all have the discresion to inform or not. If you are open carrying, obviously it is probably prudent to say something before the cop spots it. If you are concealed, in my opinion there is no upside whatever to informing; except for the possibility of ending up with your own gun pointed at you, like the OP.

I've been pulled over several times while carrying (I'm in a "must inform" state). Normally it is a complete non-issue, but one time I was required to stand there with my back to the cop while he monkeys with my gun; muzzle going who knows where... at least I had a Glock that was very much like his. It is not a good situation. If I was ever shot by a cop with my own gun, I would have no qualms about suing the state for millions. If this has never happened, it is only a matter of time.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 02:13 PM
The alternative is to not inform and break the law, which could get your CCH license revoked or worse. These actions hurt all lawful CCH holders who worked very hard to get this law passed and carry responsibly every day.

The mentality of not informing when there is a law to do so is a perfect example of one step forward 3 steps back.

If a large number of people were found not complying it would be used by those who are against the right to carry. It would put otherwise lawful people on the wrong side of the law. Why would a lawful gun owner advocate that?

doc.lonestar
May 12, 2011, 02:22 PM
If you provided the proper id showing you had a chl and the weapon is legal this never should have happened. It is a shame that this happened to you and your child.

I am the belief that if I do nothing wrong then I should not be treated as though I did. Thank goodness you were able to leave with your weapon. I watched Navajo Cops the other night on Natgeo and they confisicated this guys weapon because he did not have proof that the weapon was purchased legally. I for one do not carry reciepts for my weapons. They are locked up in my safe. Numbers came back clean. He was within the law of the state but because he was driving thru Navajo land (the rules changed) he should have declared the weapon. The driver was chl holder - did not break any laws EXCEPT for not declaring to the Navajo police officer - this lead to the confisication and other tickets.

I hope that all ends well for you.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 02:25 PM
Lic checks and their Constitutionality has nothing to do with guns IMHO. Many states that are pro gun practice these types of stops. VA and WV come to mind.

Rellascout -- my comment was not regarding the license check, but the need to inform in NC (and another half-dozen gun-unfriendly laws, too). I have gone back to that post and revised it for clarity.

ForumSurfer
May 12, 2011, 02:33 PM
For the record, not all of the stops are like this. A state trooper pulled me over last week. After I notified him of my my CHP and that I was carrying, he never asked anything further about it. That's what should happen after I notify him. Relieving me of my weapon further endangers the officer, myself and anyone else in the vehicle if I haven't demonstrated threatening activity. He did however write me a seat-belt ticket. He also didn't mention that my break light was out, which I found out after I failed inspection. :/

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 02:35 PM
There has not been a Republican Governor of NC elected since 1988. All the governor’s since then have been Democrat and I believe native born of this state. This you can not blame on the Yankees. This is more or less self-inflicted.

The Republicans now have control of the State Senate and House of Representatives now when was the last time that occurred. The ills in NC can not be blamed on Yankees. Place the blame where it lays at the feet of the native born.

I would agree with your comments on the state level but not the local level, especially in places like Cary. There is a very strong liberal influence here by permanent snowbirds, including active petitions to have local establishments ban any concealed firearm. It really annoys the crap out of me. I suppose other parts of the state are better, but you won't find too many Carolina accents in Cary or Chapel Hill, and there is an active anti-gun lobby.

henschman
May 12, 2011, 02:50 PM
If a large number of people were found not complying it would be used by those who are against the right to carry. It would put otherwise lawful people on the wrong side of the law. Why would a lawful gun owner advocate that?

Because they have no right to demand that we inform them of such a thing... plus the fact that it avoids a couple of different possibilities that carry the risk of a negative outcome for you.

And there is no way that a large number of people could be found to be not complying. How would they be caught? That illustrates one of the many absurdities about this law -- the fact that nobody would typically know you have a concealed weapon unless you voluntarily inform them, which if you do shows that you obviously mean no harm. If you did, their notification would come in the form of a bullet.

And though I disagree with you about the duty to obey laws which violate one's rights, I do like the Ayn Rand quotes in your sig! ;)

Here is another one of my favorites:

Then I saw what was wrong with the world, I saw what destroyed men and nations, and where the battle for life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality—and that my sanction was its only power. I saw that evil was impotent—that evil was the irrational, the blind, the anti-real—and that the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the good to serve it. Just as the parasites around me were proclaiming their helpless dependence on my mind and were expecting me voluntarily to accept a slavery they had no power to enforce, just as they were counting on my self-immolation to provide them with the means of their plan—so throughout the world and throughout men’s history, in every version and form, from the extortions of loafing relatives to the atrocities of collectivized countries, it is the good, the able, the men of reason, who act as their own destroyers, who transfuse to evil the blood of their virtue and let evil transmit to them the poison of destruction, thus gaining for evil the power of survival, and for their own values—the impotence of death. I saw that there comes a point, in the defeat of any man of virtue, when his own consent is needed for evil to win—and that no manner of injury done to him by others can succeed if he chooses to withhold his consent. I saw that I could put an end to your outrages by pronouncing a single word in my mind. I pronounced it. The word was “No.”
-- Ayn Rand

Owen Sparks
May 12, 2011, 02:56 PM
The conventional wisdom when dealing with the police is:

NEVER VOLUNTEER INFORMATION.

Unless you are required by law to disclose that you have a pistol, (some states do) it is better to keep your mouth shut. If the cop asked to see your driver’s license and that is all you are legally obligated to do, this sort of thing can been avoided.

You would not ask: "You're not going to look in the trunk are you"? Of course not, that would be stupid, so is inviting a search by announcing that you are armed when you are not required to.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 02:59 PM
And there is no way that a large number of people could be found to be not complying. How would they be caught? That illustrates one of the many absurdities about this law -- the fact that nobody would typically know you have a concealed weapon unless you voluntarily inform them, which if you do shows that you obviously mean no harm. If you did, their notification would come in the form of a bullet.

"Large number" is a moving target.

Let me try again. For example for the sake of arguement 50 CCH holders in the state of NC were drawn down on after being pulled from a car because a cop saw the gun after they did not inform. No one was shot but some degree of physical harm was done to the CCH holder and those 50 people lost their permits. IIRC you are required to inform in NC.

Now this is might be a relatively small number relative to the number of permits and it might also be a small number vs the people who did not inform and did not get caught but.... Would that harm the state of CCHs in NC?

Bonesinium
May 12, 2011, 03:02 PM
So if you are in a duty to inform state, and do so, what is the legality of the officer taking and clearing your weapon if you simply refuse when he asks? If you have no violated any laws, and state that you do not consent to any searches, can he still legally take your firearm?

If I were stopped and ID checked for no reason, I would never step out of my vehicle or willing allow to be searched without first asking if I am being detained, and then saying that I don't consent to any searches. I have no qualms with police officers, but if they are going to violate my rights after I have made it clear I have no wish for them to be violated, I would certainly be interested in pursing legal action against them.

However in this case, you willing allowed him to take your firearm, and considering you are now filing a complaint, it was obviously against your better interest.

Are there specific laws requiring you to not only inform, but to also tell them where the firearm is, where you bought it, how you acquired it, etc? If not, I would not answer any questions about it beside the required "I am carrying a firearm, sir/ma'am". Period. It seems clear no good comes from doing more then that. Maybe the cop will think better the next time he feels the need to disarm someone and muzzle sweep their kid.

Look at it this way. He is carrying. You are carrying. Both are doing so legally. Do you think he would let you check his firearm and clear it? Hell no! So why should he to you? Just food for thought...

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 03:03 PM
Unless you are required by law to disclose that you have a pistol, (some states do) it is better to keep your mouth shut. If the cop asked to see your driverís license and that is all you are legally obligated to do, this sort of thing can been avoided.

In VA you are not required to inform but once they are in posession of your lic they will know you have a permit. The first question out of their mouth will be are you armed and is there a gun in the car or on your person.

I have been pulled over when I was not carrying and therefore did not say anything but that was the first thing that the officer asked me once she returned with my lic after running it.

Zach S
May 12, 2011, 03:11 PM
Why would a lawful gun owner advocate that?
I didn't. I just think a duty to inform is stupid - and I always did so, and only because it was required by law. Out of over 195,553 valid permits in NC, just over 1007 have been revoked... Right around half a percent. (source) (http://www.ncdoj.gov/CHPStats.aspx)

I don't feel comfortable with an officer "figuring out" how to clear my sidearm, asking me if its registered, why its cocked, why I have two spare mags, lecturing my on gun safety, etc. Do a search, you'll find plenty of stories of lawful citizens being harassed when a verbal or written warning, or simple ticket would have sufficed.

Duty to inform also applies if you're unarmed in NC. I rolled through a license check and didn't have any firearms in the vehicle. When they ran my licence (I wasn't local) and I was flagged as a CHP holder, I sat on the side of the road and watched my car get searched while being uncooperative with answers to their questions such as "Why do you have a permit?" "How many guns do you own?" "Do you own any assault rifles?" "Are your guns registered?"

If I get stopped for a traffic violation, that traffic violation should be the focus of the stop. Not my Kimber or why I carry it. Traffic checks are to check for seatbelts, drunks, unlicensed drivers, unregistered cars, etc. If I go through a checkpoint, I don't smell like alcohol, my three year old and myself are properly strapped in, and the car is legal, I should be on my way...

Due to duty to inform, Mike wasn't.

hardluk1
May 12, 2011, 03:17 PM
I don't get all the worry about drive check points. I will glad set thru one. gets some of the rif-raf of the roads if only for a few days . I don't do anything wrong so i have nothing to fear. And it ain't oly nc that does that. I also will tell a leo that I carry just they they don't get all work up when it comes up on the computer in there car. Last thing I want is some inexperienced getting a superprize and then me getting a pistol pointed at me. I have bee a 2 driver checks in nc and the troppers only wanted to see a licence and did not care to check my the pistol at all. Handed back my paper work and on my way. Got caught in a check point a rural FL and told the deputy I had my carry gun as I handed him my paper work and he asked what I carried and asked to see it. Did not touch. I just held it flat in my hand to see it. Handed back my papers and said have a nice stay and away we went. I do worry about the young officers but had desided some years back if a young'n ever said something about do i have the skills. I would say that with 48 years of growing up with firearms and 26 years of carry'n yes I think I have more skill than most leos.

Remember in NC you have to tell the officer first. If I carry will show up on the cumputer if they check you out. Beside who wants some excited inexperienced leo jumping out of his car gun in hand to come up and check yours. Even the florida deputy said it showed on his check of me.

hermannr
May 12, 2011, 03:29 PM
Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution. Removal of your firearm when there is no RAS is theft, this guy needs a lesson in teh Laws of the US and the Various states.

While I know this was not in NC, but there is an incidence in the 9th district where the judge (Justice Black) removed the LEO's immunity. The LEO will be charged with theft of a firearm, which in WA is a Class B Felony...many years in prison and no more job as a LEO.

rellascout
May 12, 2011, 03:52 PM
Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution.

You might want to double check that....

LawScholar
May 12, 2011, 04:05 PM
So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I have a family full of cops and I am an avid cop supporter, but my dad (a 23-year Highway Patrol veteran) is the first to express disgust at the anti-gun elitism and paramilitary attitude of an unfortunate number of modern officers. Asking if you were "trained enough" was very insulting. Even with a family full of cops I am recognized as the family gun expert. Good cops don't assume they know more than you automatically.

dirtykid
May 12, 2011, 04:09 PM
Wow ! Im speechless just, wow ! I didnt know some states REQUIRE you to inform officer of weapon present, the 1-time I was pulled over i didnt offer any information than what was needed for him to complete his investigation,(i didnt have my seat-belt on)
The officer ran my DL and returned to car noting that i hadn't any moving-violations for many years,told me to buckle up and drive safely. next time i could be ticketed for such violation, (little did i know they RECORD warnings now in the computer) so about 5-weeks later ,got stopped for same thing (DUH ! sometimes i dont learn) and sure enough he says :you just got warned for this about a month ago so i got to choose: a speeding ticket or a seatbelt ticket (seatbelt violation is seen as a equipment violation basically)
So i choose the seatbelt ticket ($110) and chalked it up to my ignorance or arrogance whatever fits best.. However making you get out of car and put hands on trunk ?? thats demeaning and would cause public-embarassment,, It's just not right !!

ForumSurfer
May 12, 2011, 04:18 PM
So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I was all loaded up to go spend a day shooting with a long time friend I hadn't seen in a long time. He said he would buy all the ammo if I would supply some fun firearms. So I loaded up to go check out his new stretch of land. I went through a checkpoint along the way. I had 6 pistols, 6 shotguns, an ar15 (and 1/2, 2 uppers) and a few rifles. I was expecting to get questioned since I had it all in the back seat of my suv.

"Mornin, son." (At this point I'm thinking he's an old school guy that has been around. He'll either want to come along or detain me all morning because he isn't a gun person.)

"Hi officer, I have a CHP and I'm carrying a weapon on me [awkward pause as I debate on whether I'm legally obliged to tell him about the arsenal not concealed on my person] and all those [sheepishly points over shoulder]."

"Damn, goin shootin?"

"Yes, sir."

"Have a good one..."

Completely opposite experience from the OP, which is exactly why he should file a formal complaint against the arrogant, overbearing and uninformed officer that detained him.

V1ROT8
May 12, 2011, 04:33 PM
Sad but true. You do have your rights until you choose to say goodbye to them.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 04:43 PM
So much drama in other states! In WY I could have an AR-15 laying across the backseat and no one would bat an eyelash. God bless states that support gun rights.

I sooooooooo want to move to WY! :)

I still think a lot of the trouble the OP described was due to the fact that he was in Orange County. For those who aren't familiar with North Carolina, it is the location of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, the former of which is one of the most liberal areas of NC. It's not quite "Berkeley South", but relatively speaking, it leans left. Lots of anti's in that part of the state. Of course, that is no excuse for why the officer acted the way he did, but it does shed some more light on this. I would file a complaint and get this resolved ASAP.

ForumSurfer
May 12, 2011, 04:50 PM
For those who aren't familiar with North Carolina, it is the location of Chapel Hill and Carrboro, the former of which is one of the most liberal areas of NC. It's not quite "Berkeley South", but relatively speaking, it leans left. Lots of anti's in that part of the state.

Amen...the only place in the state that would be worse is The People's Republic of Cary.

henschman
May 12, 2011, 05:32 PM
License checkpoints may be constitutional according to the Supreme Court as long as they are conducted for a regulatory rather than a criminal enforcement purpose (checking to see that the person is properly licensed in this case). However, the authority for the search/seizure only extends to briefly detaining the driver and checking his license. To engage in a further search, it would need to be either pursuant to consent, to a warrant, or to one of the warrant exceptions established by Supreme Court precedent. In a motor vehicle, an officer can search any time he has probable cause that a specific crime is being committed, and the search may extend anywhere he has probable cause of there being evidence of the crime. However, in this case, the officer had no probable cause of any kind of crime being committed.

That leaves the "stop and frisk" line of cases under Terry v. OH. Under this line of cases, an officer must have reasonable suspicion, based on specific and articulable facts, that a suspect is both armed and dangerous. If he so believes, he can pat down the person, search the interior compartment of a motor vehicle that he is in or was recently in, and remove and secure any weapons he finds.

However, like I said, this type of search requires reasonable suspicion that the suspect is both ARMED, and DANGEROUS. I will give the cop the "armed" part, since you freely told him you have a gun -- but what specific and articulable facts led him to believe that the OP was any more dangerous than the average joe at the checkpoint? As I said before, the cop had absolutely no reason to believe that the OP is violating any law whatsoever.

Unfortunately, this is something that seems to be standard procedure for police departments all over the country -- many times when a cop comes in contact with a firearm, even if he has absolutely no reason to believe it is possessed illegally, he will secure it without the consent of the owner. I believe it to be a clear violation of Supreme Court precedent.

OP, you might want to talk to a lawyer who handles tort claims to discuss the possibility of recovering damages in a 1983 suit.

The only way this widespread abuse will end is if officers, departments, and municipalities are held accountable financially.

9mm+
May 12, 2011, 05:34 PM
Amen...the only place in the state that would be worse is The People's Republic of Cary.

I hear ya, Forum...Cary is where I live and it's killing me every day. :(

Frogomatik
May 12, 2011, 05:55 PM
I was all loaded up to go spend a day shooting with a long time friend I hadn't seen in a long time. He said he would buy all the ammo if I would supply some fun firearms. So I loaded up to go check out his new stretch of land. I went through a checkpoint along the way. I had 6 pistols, 6 shotguns, an ar15 (and 1/2, 2 uppers) and a few rifles. I was expecting to get questioned since I had it all in the back seat of my suv.

"Mornin, son." (At this point I'm thinking he's an old school guy that has been around. He'll either want to come along or detain me all morning because he isn't a gun person.)

"Hi officer, I have a CHP and I'm carrying a weapon on me [awkward pause as I debate on whether I'm legally obliged to tell him about the arsenal not concealed on my person] and all those [sheepishly points over shoulder]."

"Damn, goin shootin?"

"Yes, sir."

"Have a good one..."

Completely opposite experience from the OP, which is exactly why he should file a formal complaint against the arrogant, overbearing and uninformed officer that detained him.

had a similar experience when I lived in CO. On my way back from a day off shooting up in Conifer. I was armed, had 3 long guns up front, and a dozen or more in the bed. Older officer pulled me over for speeding(of which I was most certainly guilty). He, of course, saw all the guns when he came up to my window, I told him I was armed...as if it wasn't obvious. He asked me to disarm(he didn't disarm me, just asked me to set the pistol on the seat) and exit the vehicle while he ran my license...no problem. He came back, gave me a verbal warning, then asked me if that was an 870 between the seats, I said yes, and we ended up just shooting the breeze for about 30 minutes before he got another call. Real nice guy, ran into him again at the range and got to shoot a bit of trap with him.

Bonesinium
May 12, 2011, 06:01 PM
Everything this officer did was totally illegal. Licence Checks are illegal as per the 4th Ammendment of the constitution.

You might want to double check that....

Removal of your firearm when there is no RAS is theft, this guy needs a lesson in teh Laws of the US and the Various states.

And you also might want to check teh Laws...

Sad but true. You do have your rights until you choose to say goodbye to them.

Fact.

Deanimator
May 12, 2011, 06:09 PM
I don't do anything wrong so i have nothing to fear.
Other than having an arrogant, untrained imbecile sweep you or your family member with a loaded firearm.

Deanimator
May 12, 2011, 06:23 PM
Just one more reason to carry and use a recording device wherever lawful to do so.

Dean1818
May 12, 2011, 07:41 PM
I was pulled over at night here in my beloved state of Texas


As he was walking up I put my hands on the wheel at 2 and 10

I gave him the DL and CCL.

I was polite and professional.

He didnt even ask about the gun and handed the CCL back, like it wasnt
worth discussing.

(I was a bit suprised, I thought he would ask where the gun is)

He gave me a warning



I will add that when I lived in Ohio many years ago (No CCL) I was pulled over by a trooper and I knew what he was looking for..... I had the new sticker to put on my license that had expired sitting in a pile of papers in the front passenger seat.

As he walked up I started to dig through the papers to find the stickers.

I happened to glance in my side mirror and he had cleared leather on his pistol

It woke me up a bit...... he obviously thought I was going for a gun.

I put my hands out the window and he was a more relaxed.

I dont blame him for that.... there are some nut jobs out there that they have to deal with.

He gave me a warning

All in all... I give ALL cops the benefit of the doubt.

I dont view them as my enemy

I belive that we dont HAVE to be confrontaional.

In Texas, A cop knows that I carry on his system when he pulls me over.

Unless he does something REALLY stupid, I will absolutely be flexible with him / her.

My experience has almost always been positive. These guys generally are just trying to work a shift and get home to their family.

The OP should write a compaint, as this may be a learning experiene for the cop.

But I have to say....I really am not looking for a conflict when those all to often times when I get myself pulled over occurs.

MikeNice
May 16, 2011, 08:43 AM
I sent a copy of the complaint to the proper person in the department. I also sent a copy to the officer's liutenant and sarge as encouraged by the officer in charge of handling complaints like this. (The guy knew who I was talking about just by my description of the event.)

I recieved a call from the department this morning. The officer's liutenant called to let me know he is requesting an investigation. I told him I had sent the letter to the appropriate person to get it started. He said he would comply fully. He found the "allegations" to be "disturbing and unsuitable for an officer."

We'll see what happens. It won't lead to termination but any discipline would be comforting to me.

ForumSurfer
May 16, 2011, 08:59 AM
He found the "allegations" to be "disturbing and unsuitable for an officer."

See! You dealt with a bad apple. But if someone doesn't call him on it, he will continue to act like that toward the rest of us. Good job on filing the complaint. I hope it works out well for all of us here in NC. Keep us posted.

geekWithA.45
May 16, 2011, 09:14 AM
For starters, your treatment was unconscionable.

And for seconds:

License check?

"Papiere, Bitte."

The premise that claims that this is consistent with 4A is a load of manure.

SimplyChad
May 16, 2011, 09:57 AM
I've been pulled over twice as it comes to my Chl. Both times in El paso Texas. The first time officer was completely professional asked me to set my revolver on the dash of the truck and went on with the ticket (speeding). Second time I really got pisses off. Cop comes to the window asked for my license and insurence. I gave it up with my chl. He asked what I was carring I told him I wasnt. He didnt believe me. He asked me out of the truck I did so. Frisked me asked me again where the gun was I told him I didn't have it. He called in a friend they cuffed me sat me on the curb and proceeded to tear apart my truck until a supervisor showed up. He uncuffed me gave me back my stuff. Helped me put my tools back in my toolbox along with some other stuff they pulled out of the bed. Then proceeded to apologize profusely while giving me the paperwork to file a formal complaint. To make all the worse I was in uniform on the way home from work. The next day I was called into my first Sgt office to ask what I had done I had never been so angery and embarrassed.

HOOfan_1
May 16, 2011, 10:19 AM
My brother was a cop and then a Marine. He could drive up and down I95 without fear of getting a ticket. If he was pulled over he simply showed his credentials and they would let him go. Special rules for special people. :barf:

I work for my state Government, we have a parking deck under my building for visitors, it is free of charge, but it is meant for people who use our building. A Capital Police officer ticketed a woman for parking there for free but not using our building. She was a state legislator's wife. The officer nearly got fired and the enforcement of the parking policy is no longer followed.

Another state employee was fired about a month before that for parking in the deck.

:barf: is exactly right.

heeler
May 16, 2011, 11:46 AM
It certainly seems to me the officer over reacted giving the supplied information.
I really hate hearing things like this.

On another note I was stopped last month for actually going 69 mph in a 65 zone and in Texas you must present the officer your drivers license as well as Concealed handgun license if you are carrying.
The officer came back and gave me a warning only and thanked me for showing my CHL even though I would have been in trouble had I not done so.
I was never asked where it was or even if I had it on me.
In all honesty I think my CHL might have actually gotten me out of a ticket that day.
I am sure far west Texas is a lot more different than the long distance difference from Texas to N.C. though.
In Texas an officer has the right to take your weapon from you in a traffic stop if he/she feels like it and you must comply.
It will be given back to you after they are ready to release you.
I hope this never happens to me but it is quite possible.

Dr_B
May 16, 2011, 07:41 PM
This was an unfortunate encounter. I haven't been stopped for anything since I got my carry license, but the few times I've been around an LEO who knew I was carrying, things were OK.

brboyer
May 16, 2011, 08:47 PM
It certainly seems to me the officer over reacted giving the supplied information.
I really hate hearing things like this.

On another note I was stopped last month for actually going 69 mph in a 65 zone and in Texas you must present the officer your drivers license as well as Concealed handgun license if you are carrying.
The officer came back and gave me a warning only and thanked me for showing my CHL even though I would have been in trouble had I not done so.
I was never asked where it was or even if I had it on me.
In all honesty I think my CHL might have actually gotten me out of a ticket that day.
I am sure far west Texas is a lot more different than the long distance difference from Texas to N.C. though.
In Texas an officer has the right to take your weapon from you in a traffic stop if he/she feels like it and you must comply.
It will be given back to you after they are ready to release you.
I hope this never happens to me but it is quite possible.

You are mistaken...you might want to check the current law on this.

heeler
May 16, 2011, 10:18 PM
brboyer,could you be more specific??
Texas law requires that you show your CHL while carrying if an officer asks for your ID during a stop and they can most certainly disarm you if they want to.
I will be more than happy to site the exact letter of the law on this matter if you care.
Look up GC 411.205.
Also GC.411.207 on the officers authority to disarm.

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:22 PM
License check???? Your experience sounds horrible. File a complaint for sure. But why would you ever have a licience check if there was no laws broken?

I know right?

North Carolina IS still part of the USA, isnt it?

This is outrageous and I commend him on filing a complaint. The minute he asked me what made me think I was qualified to carry a gun my mouth would have dropped open. Thankfully I have enough control to close it again before responding. I would save that for my written complaint.

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:30 PM
There's your problem. That's Liberal Country there! ;)

I live in Wake County and haven't had any issues yet. I tell my CCH students that if they're pulled over to roll down the window and press your palms against the steering wheel at the 10:00 and 2:00 position and spread your fingers without making a move. When the officer comes to the car, inform him or her that you're a CCH holder and whether or not you are carrying. DON'T MOVE YOUR HANDS. The LEO will then ask for your permit and license, but ASK IF YOU CAN MOVE YOUR HANDS TO RETRIEVE THEM. The LEO will ask where the gun is if you're carrying, but TELL HIM/HER WHERE IT IS WITHOUT REACHING FOR IT (usually the LEO will retrieve it personally). In other words, don't move your hands at all unless you explicitly ask if you may and only for the item in question.

It's a big, fat PITA in North Carolina, but it's getting better here. At least we will soon be able to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. Baby steps...baby steps...

That sounds awfully overdramatic to me. They are only exercising their LEGAL right. Are the cops that scared there? Are the criminals doing that? No.

As a courtesy, even before I carried, I placed my hands...normally...on the steering wheel at 10 and 2....to put any officer at ease. I used to be a park ranger and make car stops. It was just to be polite and show courtesy.

In my state, it shows when they run your plates if you have a permit. You are not required to tell them and I havent. No issues, but one thank you...for the hands on the steering wheel.

I refuse to act LIKE a criminal or be treated like one.

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:36 PM
Easy way for him to get his arrest numbers up. If you say no, he can ask why, and if you tell him why, he can lead you further down the road toward admiting something that can be used against you.

There's no training requirement for a permit in some states, including mine. He'd have no law to back him up here.

If I was asked that question, I would just stare at him, pointedly.

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:37 PM
I do not agree with this. A traffic stop is vunerable position for an officer. If you are carrying and do not inform but the officer one way or another sees the gun you are greatly upping the chances of you getting shot or at the very least having a gun drawn on you.

If that is true it doesnt say much for the training level of some cops. Panicking at a holstered gun?

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:42 PM
Use the public roads or highway system is not a right. Lic checks and sobriety check points have been upheld many times over as Constitutional. I do not like them but when done properly they are not Unconstitutional.

Srsly? Use of PUBLIC roads or federal highway system isnt a right? What restrictions are there if you are in the correct vehicle as posted (meaning not on a horse or hitchhiking, for example).

I can understand....unfortunately....the manufacturing of the excuse of checking drivers' licenses in the interest of public safety but then they still should have no right to ask for ID from anyone else in the vehicle (which is outside the scope of this discussion).

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:45 PM
There has not been a Republican Governor of NC elected since 1988. All the governorís since then have been Democrat and I believe native born of this state. This you can not blame on the Yankees. This is more or less self-inflicted.

The Republicans now have control of the State Senate and House of Representatives now when was the last time that occurred. The ills in NC can not be blamed on Yankees. Place the blame where it lays at the feet of the native born.

WA St has had Democratic governors for decades. And a huge influx of Californians.

We still have pretty darn gun-friendly laws, and a very gun-friendly state Constitution, despite being a blue state (but it's pretty close to 50-50).

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:46 PM
Sorry, obviously this topic has irked me. I'm only halfway thru.

I'll stop reading...and writing...now.

Ben86
May 16, 2011, 11:46 PM
Use of PUBLIC roads or federal highway system isnt a right?

It is in fact not a right, hence their ability to deny you that privilege by revoking your driver's license. That's just the way it is.

9MMare
May 16, 2011, 11:48 PM
It is in fact not a right, hence their ability to deny you that privilege by revoking your driver's license. That's just the way it is.

It doesnt stop you from riding the bus or riding in a car on the highway. Driver's licenses arent licenses to use roadways, they are verification that you can safely operate a potentially dangerous vehicle on those roadways.

HOOfan_1
May 17, 2011, 01:40 AM
The minute he asked me what made me think I was qualified to carry a gun my mouth would have dropped open.

Wonder how the officer would have felt if MikeNice had asked him if he thought he was properly trained to wear a badge?

He would probably have felt disrespected, just like MikeNice felt. Respect is a two way street.

MarkDozier
May 17, 2011, 03:50 AM
I haved been stopped a few times. never got a ticket. the only time i told cop i was packin was becauuse i had the gun and wallet in a fanny pack. I was wearing sweats.
Told him and he saiys i know. He then asked if I was going to shoot him? Only if I have to I replied. We starting talkin guns and i left with a slow down admonisment and a smile from the tropper.
Funny but between my retired ID and my CPL I have only got one ticket in 15 years and I crushed it in court.

Zach S
May 17, 2011, 09:02 AM
It is in fact not a right, hence their ability to deny you that privilege by revoking your driver's license. That's just the way it is.
Its a right, they cant revoke my license at their will. And like other rights, I can lose that right due to stupidity on my part.

Honestly, I cant see how people can say that CCW is a right and driving is a privilege.

grubbylabs
May 17, 2011, 10:55 AM
Use of PUBLIC roads or federal highway system isnt a right?

No it is not it is a privileged. That is why they place the barrier of a license. You have to earn the privileged or "right" to be able to drive. You have the privilege of using "public road ways" so long as you comply with the rules for using that road way.

grubbylabs
May 17, 2011, 10:58 AM
Very interesting, I had a state cop pull up behind me while I was stopped on the side of the road to tell me to move. When I saw the lights I took the revolver out of my friends hands and put it up on the dash in plain site. It was not even a consideration. He never even acknowledged that he saw it.

Not a car stop but similar situation. During hunting season while open carrying the same revolver I walked into a restaurant with my family after an outing and right past a table of county deputies, while they all looked at me for a few seconds, not one of them said a peep to me.


More on topic what does training have to do with it any way? I did not read any thing about training in the constitution or the several amendments that follow it. Not that I think you should skip training and practice but there is no stipulation about it.

lawson4
May 17, 2011, 12:12 PM
You do realize that you don't have to have any discussion with the officer. If he asks if it's modified, when did you get your CWP, etc, just ask if you're under arrest. You are free to go, under arrest or investagative detention. If you're free to go, do it. If you're under arrest or being detained, ask to speak with an attorney before any more questioning. The officer has to make a decision at this point: put up or shut up.
You're not being disrepectful, only exercising you're rights.

lason4

smalls
May 17, 2011, 12:53 PM
Sometimes officers need to be reminded that their political standing needs to be left at home, or they should have ran for elected something-or-other instead of becoming a cop.

Nushif
May 17, 2011, 01:01 PM
Definitely complain. As a matter of fact ... complain to whoever is the highest authority wherever you are.

9MMare
May 17, 2011, 10:52 PM
No it is not it is a privileged. That is why they place the barrier of a license. You have to earn the privileged or "right" to be able to drive. You have the privilege of using "public road ways" so long as you comply with the rules for using that road way.

A drivers license is not a barrier to using public roads, nor is it intended as such.

You can ride in a bus, you can be a passenger in a car. You can hire a limo or a taxi. In most places you can walk along them (as long as you dont hitchhike). You can pay someone to move all your possessions or commercial goods....you are using the roadways in all these instances.

As a 'driver' however, you do have to obey the traffic rules.

A drivers license is one measure to try and oversee public safety by developing standards for safe operation of a vehicle. And it has been 'claimed' for various other *identification* purposes by a variety of municipalities and states....not all that I agree with.

Defense Minister
May 18, 2011, 07:17 PM
I'm WAY more concerned about the "license check" than I am the issue with the firearm. Papers, please...

dodo bird
May 18, 2011, 10:04 PM
I agree about the "license check" being more rediciouls. What if you were riding your bicycle past the check point. Do you have to stop and show them your chl? If no laws were broken you should not have check points. I suppose if they were looking for a escaped convict or something like that I would be happy to comply. Can't think of any other reason. We are Americans not nazis.

Ben86
May 19, 2011, 10:30 PM
It doesnt stop you from riding the bus or riding in a car on the highway. Driver's licenses arent licenses to use roadways, they are verification that you can safely operate a potentially dangerous vehicle on those roadways.

A license is permission to use THEIR roadways whilst driving YOUR car. Verification of safe handling is just extra, and often ineffective verification if you ask me.

Its a right, they cant revoke my license at their will. And like other rights, I can lose that right due to stupidity on my part.

Honestly, I cant see how people can say that CCW is a right and driving is a privilege.

Sorry, you are incorrect. Driving on public roadways is not a right. They can revoke your permission to drive on their roadways at will according to the govt's procedure of whose jurisdiction you reside within. If you don't believe me go ask a highway patrol officer, lawyer or judge.

CC ought to be a right, but at the moment it is not considered such, it is a privilege similar to using public roadways to drive your vehicle.

buttrap
May 19, 2011, 11:16 PM
If you read the Constutution of the US the free use of public roads is a right.

9MMare
May 20, 2011, 12:08 AM
A license is permission to use THEIR roadways whilst driving YOUR car. Verification of safe handling is just extra, and often ineffective verification if you ask me.



Sorry, you are incorrect. Driving on public roadways is not a right. They can revoke your permission to drive on their roadways at will according to the govt's procedure of whose jurisdiction you reside within. If you don't believe me go ask a highway patrol officer, lawyer or judge.

CC ought to be a right, but at the moment it is not considered such, it is a privilege similar to using public roadways to drive your vehicle.

Everything you wrote 100% ignored the statements....as written out for you....about how anyone can use the roads without a drivers license. edit: Not only that, you can have a drivers license and drive ANYONE's car, doesnt have to be your own.

No one said that using the roads is a 'right' or even a privilege. You can be restricted from using them anytime you break the laws for using them. Just like with any other laws pertaining to public property/domain. However, drivers licenses ONLY pertain to *driving* a vehicle on those roads...and you have to obey the relevant laws, just like anything else.

But **you do not need anything** to use public roads (except some change for toll roads I guess). Passenger, bus, limo, taxi, horse, walking, goods and services.....NO drivers license required.

But....carry on.

Davek1977
May 20, 2011, 04:59 AM
I don't do anything wrong so i have nothing to fear. I'm frankly disgusted by this line of thinking. You may not want, need, or appreciate privacy, but some of us do,and wanting our privacy respected doesn't mean we are criminal or have something to hide. it means we like to exercise our rights, and use the protections afforded to us under the law. Just because you may not be a private individual doesn't mean everyone's lives should be an open book for law enforcement...or anyone else...to page through at their leisure. Not wanting to advertise your affairs to the world...or the local police department...doesn't make on a criminal. It might make you feel morally superior in some strange way to cooperate with authority at the price of basic liberty, but I find that our constitutional protections were outlined as such because they were important to respect and follow, and as such, I'll use whatever protections afforded to me rather than simply give up my rights because I feel as though i have nothing to hide. Just because I'm not guilty of something doesn't mean i should be subjected to tests to check to the contrary. As a law-abiding person, i should be treated as such, not treated as a criminal until an officer's hunch is proven incorrect.

9MMare
May 21, 2011, 12:03 PM
I agree with you Dave.

And just because someone isnt breaking the law doesnt mean that their lives should be open books. While I'm not supporting unethical or immoral behavior, an example is phone tapping by the govt:

They might not hear that you are breaking a law, but if they hear you badmouthing your boss or cheating on your wife/husband (or even thinking of it), or if you had an abortion or speaking out in anger against a friend, etc etc etc...they can use that information against you to ruin your private or professional life.

Ben86
May 23, 2011, 01:13 AM
Everything you wrote 100% ignored the statements....as written out for you....about how anyone can use the roads without a drivers license.

A license is permission to use THEIR roadways whilst driving YOUR car.


It seems we disagree again. I'm not saying they can ban you from using their roadways all together. They do have the right to take away your privilege of driving a automobile on them.

MikeNice
May 23, 2011, 10:06 AM
I had to go down and fill out some papers after work this morning. I was told the "official" process would start. That just means that somebody will look at the complaint and see if it justifies investigating.

It seems that, unless he broke a law, they will just place an "abrieviated" version of the complaint in his file. If he violated any of the department's policies his supervising officer will have a "coaching session" with him. A report of that session will be placed in his file.

I told the person that I didn't think he broke a law. I just wanted to file a complaint so that a history of harrasment and poor public interactions can be established. They said a full investigation must be under taken. (edit to clarify: they either do a full investigation or deem the complaint baseless. So, they must make a ful investigation if a complaint has merit.)

So, I may be called in to make a statement with an investigator.

We talked or about fifteen minutes. It pretty much came out that the guy is probably going to end up with a "coaching session" and loss of overtime priviliges for a few weeks.

It isn't a big victory, but maybe it will make him treat CCH holders a little better.

I did ask if he might have to take a course on gun safety. The administrator I was talking to said, "unfortunately that part doesn't suprise me." His sentiments were, you should be happy you don't have range time with these guys.

9MMare
May 24, 2011, 03:07 AM
It seems we disagree again. I'm not saying they can ban you from using their roadways all together. They do have the right to take away your privilege of driving a automobile on them.

Closer.

They can take away your privilege of driving an automobile PERIOD.

And having a drivers license has nothing to do with use of state/county/federal roads (which is what the discussion is based on)...only 'driving a vehicle' on them. Thus drivers licenses are not meant to be restrictors of free travel on public roads.

MikeNice
June 28, 2011, 02:07 AM
Finally got some resolution on this matter today. I got a letter saying that the complaint was reviewed.

"Some disciplinary action may be waranted. Exactly what form that action may take has not been determined. The final determinations of the disciplinary board will be made available to the public through the minutes of a future meeting." That was the response I recieved via mail on Monday.

So after a month they basically said he may have done something wrong and they may do something about it. :scrutiny::rolleyes:

Hammerogod
June 28, 2011, 04:36 AM
I live in New Mexico where your Vehicle is considered to be your Private Property in the same sense that your House is.
I can have my handgun, or any gun, in my car (loaded) without ever having to tell anyone.
I could easily get a Concealed Carry License/Permit since I am a life-long non-offender but I see no real reason to do so.
I can reach the gun if I am in my car (Pickup actually) because it is in the center console in a chamois pouch.
I have been stopped 100's of times due to the fact that I often travel between areas that have Homeland Security checkpoints.
Nobody had ever asked my about the Gun(s) or my possession of them.
If I got out of the vehicle at a checkpoint or routine (?) stop (?), for any reason, the gun(s) would NOT get out with me.
I also make it a practice never to step out of my vehicle with the gun(s) on my person unless I am on my own property.

I have no valid reason to go to any of the states that have insane gun laws so I can't speak to the issues that would arise if I operated the same way in Calif or NY.

ForumSurfer
June 28, 2011, 08:25 AM
Finally got some resolution on this matter today. I got a letter saying that the complaint was reviewed.

"Some disciplinary action may be waranted. Exactly what form that action may take has not been determined. The final determinations of the disciplinary board will be made available to the public through the minutes of a future meeting." That was the response I recieved via mail on Monday.

So after a month they basically said he may have done something wrong and they may do something about it. :scrutiny::rolleyes:

You still have an opportunity. At the very least, these minutes are public record and most counties have them available to be downloaded on their websites. I'd respond again and ask them which date they have the disciplinary hearing scheduled to appear in front of the board so you can keep a close eye on it. As the person filing the complaint, you have a right to follow the progress of it. :)

Of course, I also know how frustrating it is when dealing with local government at times, so I wouldn't blame you if you just forgot about and moved on, either. Good luck either way!

MikeNice
June 28, 2011, 09:30 AM
I'm going to stay out of it at this point. I work for a police department in a neighboring county. I deal with a lot of the officer's from the jurisdiction where this happened. Too much pressure might lead to some issues with cooperation and such.

The complaint will be in his file and that will be enough to hinder any promotions and advancement for a while. I don't want to push too hard and cause a problem for people outside of the situation.

knotquiteawake
June 28, 2011, 05:46 PM
Think what you will of those license checkpoints but I would love it if they attempted to do one in Southern California... I got rear ended by an unlicensed, uninsured, illegal immigrant hispanic cafeteria worker. That was a great day for sure. The Sheriff deputy that showed up to take the report was hispanic as well and was chatting it up in spanish with the lady. He let her drive off without a license or insurance. Thanks LA Country Sheriff's Department, you're awesome!
This one of the reasons I left California.

I attempted to file a complaint, spoke to the guy's LT about it but it sounded like they really didn't care and it probably never even got back to the guy that somebody complained.

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