Another Trip to Britain - Cops with no guns


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Dean1818
May 12, 2011, 07:52 PM
There are a few shows in England that mimic "COPS" shown in the US.


I have seen a few shows, and its clear the london thugs have ZERO respect for the police.

I realize there are many folks that dont respect the police in the US, but it seems like the Brits take it to another level.

In almst every show a Brit (or multiple brits) are abusive and throws punches at the cop. (bobby)

The cops are so courteous even after a fight.

I was thinking that the cops in the US wouldnt put up with the crap the Brit cops do, and I do believe the respect begins with the fact that the US police man is armed

thoughts?

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Dr_B
May 12, 2011, 08:02 PM
I think you're right. My experience has been that people are quick to get mouthy and throw punches if they know no one is armed. That's how things seemed to me when I lived in Canada and on the trips I've made to England. More knife-related crimes, but less shooting.

First4Freedom
May 14, 2011, 01:22 AM
Whoah what happened to all the replies to this post, they all disappeared, did something happen when I was away?

Silas
May 14, 2011, 05:58 AM
When a criminal runs from a bobby, the bobby yells, "Stop! Or I'll...yell stop again!?"
Don't know about the replies, but last night I couldn't access the sight. Perhaps some internet Bermuda Triangle or something?

berrieberrie
May 14, 2011, 06:23 AM
Disclaimer: European, and very frequent visitor to London and the rest oif the UK. Got some cop friends there, too. I do want to add some things.
Of course, it's a TV show and I can imagine the brass wanting to portray their men as the corteous, old-time Bobbies one used to see. Fact is, there have never been as many armed police on the UK streets as nowadays. UK police are also somewhat notorious for packing a mean punch, if you catch my drift. That shouldn't be a surprise, given the fact that, indeed, for a long time most UK policemen had to rely on their wits and fists, since not much else was made available to them. How was it said - "most people respect the badge, everybody respects the gun ?". Well, if people don't respect the badge (common behaviour nowadays) and you don't have the gun, you need something else. I can tell you guys one thing: I'd rather be arrested in Oakland than in Manchester.

TexasBill
May 14, 2011, 06:40 AM
Have an acquaintance who was a London Police constable some years ago. According to him, not only did a Bobbie have to swing a mean punch or truncheon, he had to be fast on his feet; if a suspect was able to outrun you, it meant a one-day suspension without pay.

AirForceShooter
May 14, 2011, 08:59 AM
If you need a gun to command respect get a new job.

AFS

First4Freedom
May 14, 2011, 09:40 AM
I was posting last night about how I work with the police in the capacity of my own job, and I hear all sorts of things from them. This is also the country where thugs with nothing better to do, call in bogus fire alerts so they can vandalize the trucks that come to help, and even try attack the firemen. It's a weird situation, but I'm moving soon so I won't have to be as frustrated about the situation.

Here is the original thread in the archive for those of you who were wondering where it all went! http://old.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=592500

Tom Fury
May 14, 2011, 09:50 AM
I have lived in the UK 7 years now; had to laugh the other night when
Inspector Barnaby on "Midsomer Murders" threatened to call out the armed response unit on someone; it would have taken much too long for them to get there.
I live in Grantham, which is rural Lincolnshire (think rural farming area; Country living for sure) response time for the ARU from Peterborough is under 30 minutes (How reassuring)
Great story about how they were called on friends of mine who were playing airsoft; they brought a K9 unit and searched all 13 houses in Welby, my friends' last, and they came in and had tea and discussed how authentic his airsoft AK47 was.
I also have a friend who is a cop; there seems to be a much more understanding policy if heads get busted during a police op; but they seem to be expected to be able to take care of themselves with fists and truncheon.
Personal Observation: There seems to be a greater tolerance for bent cops, physical violence, and petty crime here; an undercurrent of the criminal I don't find in America.
For all of their stated belief in civility, I find the UK a fairly scary place to be, and violent crime never that far beneath the surface. Cops are despised here, and I believe are seen as agents of Social control in a society that is controlling beyond what most Americans would tolerate. I personally believe the British position that neither their cops or citizens need firearms as a crime deterrent to be a fabulous conceit, but it is what it is.
Remember the anti-gun attitude is much harder to change than the anti-gun laws are. That fabulous conceit is reinforced as time passes.

Who needs respect for the law in a police state?

TF

Water-Man
May 14, 2011, 10:30 AM
Some only respect a gun. Some don't even respect that.

MachIVshooter
May 14, 2011, 10:33 AM
I believe are seen as agents of Social control in a society that is controlling beyond what most Americans would tolerate.

Unfortunately, I believe it is a minority these days. Our "enlightened" population seems to want what you have over there. Most of them look at the statistics for homicide and gun crime and believe the UK has got it right. They fail to understand two things; One, Britain has always had a lower homicide rate than the US, regardless of gun laws and two; They seem to feel that homicide is the only "real" crime. They don't realize how much violence exists in Britain and so much of civilized Europe in the form of rape, assault, etc. If they'd review more carefully those statistics they so love, they'd realize you're much more likely to be a victim of violence in the UK than the US.

jerkface11
May 14, 2011, 10:37 AM
I have seen a few shows, and its clear the london thugs have ZERO respect for the police.

American thugs of course have the utmost respect for the police.

berrieberrie
May 14, 2011, 10:48 AM
If you need a gun to command respect get a new job.

See also Water-man's post: respect for authority, values, the fellow man has gone down the drain the last 50-60 years. One may argue that respect should first and foremost be earned, but no matter how you twist it, the simple fact is that some people (more and more, sadly) respect nothing or nobody anymore. How are you going to keep somebody like that from doing whatever he likes ? Face it, a big part of law enforcement and the justice system consists of deterrence - making people think twice before breaking the law: the threat of prison sentences, financial penalties.... on the street level this means arming police or otherwise ensuring that thugs realise they have a big chance of pulling the shortest straw when taking them on.

Squatting Bear
May 14, 2011, 11:01 AM
So what can the average street cop in UK carry? Taser? Mace?

Dean1818
May 14, 2011, 11:39 AM
from what it appears, the Bobbies get Mace



What I believe that has played out in England is a generation pass.

The guns were outlawed in England, driven by a nutjob who killed children I am told a few decades back.

All it takes to rid a country of firearms is a tragic, well publicized event, and a generation of brainwashing.

Unfortunately we have the "setting" in the USA for it to happen here as well.

For those that say "It could never happen here" you should wake up.


I have a client in the UK that was a regular shooter in England before the ban occurred. They were ALL surprised that it happened.

When our supreme court voted 5-4..... not 9-0 on a "constitutional" challenge, I know we have a problem. What happens if JUST ONE
conservative judge is replaced by another anti-gun person?

When the media continues to slant stories negatively

When the media almost never prints a positive gun situation

When the title "gun-nut" is as common as it is

When many of our teachers of our children continue to use every opportunity to put gun ownership in a bad light

Our best fight in my opinion starts this way

1) Responsible gun ownership - don't be the person the media uses
as THEIR posterboy

2) Teach all of your family members the enjoyment of shooting

3) Take a "non-shooter" to the range as many times as possible

I have taken multiple non shooters to the range over the past 2 years,
many of these non-shooters are now responsible gun owners and a few also have CCLs

To continue in the sport that we all love, we need to continue to grow our numbers which refutes the negative myths about gun ownership that is being dumped on us and our families.

4) Support your local ranges and gun shops (They ARE under attack)

5) I also tell everyone to be careful on face to face sales. Obviously, you
cant tell what type of person you are selling to. But......If something doesn't seem right.......DONT SELL THEM THE GUN...... there will be other buyers

6) Support the NRA

7) VOTE !

These are just a few things that I think we can do to keep us shooting

Mk VII
May 14, 2011, 11:48 AM
Some have pepper sprays or CS. Tasers have been more commonly issued recently.
A general issue of firearms to the police would be a severe political blow for any administration that had to authorise it. Also numbers would no doubt be declared psychologically unsuitable and would have to be discharged, also some would refuse to do so on conscientious grounds and would, no doubt, have to be paid off.
The ideal (although increasingly breached) regimen of an unarmed police force which works by persuasion and personality, or if necessary a nightstick, remains very popular here, rather than the American policing model of "Do as I say or I'll kill you".

berrieberrie
May 14, 2011, 12:13 PM
UK patrolmen/women carry mace and it's been a long time since I saw one who wasn't carrying an expendable baton or (partially collapsible) PR-24. Armed police (who once were rarely seen but now seem omnipresent) usually carry both Glocks and some HK (MP5 of G36 in various versions).

The ideal (although increasingly breached) regimen of an unarmed police force which works by persuasion and personality, or if necessary a nightstick, remains very popular here, rather than the American policing model of "Do as I say or I'll kill you".

I highly doubt the American policing model can be summarized as "Do as I say or I'll kill you"; on the contrary, it sounds rather short-sighted to me, not to mention insulting. May I add that in my experience, US police are much more polite and persuasive than their British counterparts. And surely an unarmed police force is popular - especially with criminals the world over, who evidently also prefer their victims to be unarmed or complying...

MachIVshooter
May 14, 2011, 08:34 PM
All it takes to rid a country of firearms is a tragic, well publicized event, and a generation of brainwashing.

Unfortunately we have the "setting" in the USA for it to happen here as well.

For those that say "It could never happen here" you should wake up.

Not gonna say it could never happen, but I will say that the trend over the last decade stands in stark contrast to your theory. While we always have the usual suspects clamoring for more gun control after a tragedy, Americans by and large have been arming themselves to the teeth and saying "I'm not gonna let it happen to me". Since 2000, we've seen an explosion of new enthusiasts, people buying for protection, people taking the class and getting their permits. It has surprised me more than I can express, especially how the atmosphere is such that Big O has done absolutely nothing to push for gun control, knowing that it's even more a loosing battle now than it was for Klinton.

I know this seems to contradict my ealier post at first, but it really doesn't. In so many respects, what I said before holds true; A frightening number of people in this country are apparently OK with massive government control. But we do still cling to our guns, I suppose believing that we'll take it until we just can't anymore, and if we still have our guns, we can fight back. Maybe we can, maybe not, but that does seem to be the logic.

RTR_RTR
May 14, 2011, 09:26 PM
Ruskies prob look at us the same way ;)

hso
May 14, 2011, 09:39 PM
I do believe the respect begins with the fact that the US police man is armed


Not according to my cop buddies who've been spit, hit, kicked, rammed and generally jumped by violent criminals. In response, they have sprayed, tased, batonned, hit, kicked, wrestled thugs into submission. Sometimes with enthusiasm and at other times with difficulty and danger to themselves. The fact that they were carrying a gun too often causes the BG knowing a little something about the rules of engagement they have to follow to shout/spit, "Wadda ya gonna do, shoot me?!?! You ain't gonna shoot me! I'm gonna whup yur...". Sometimes it's a bluff and too often it isn't. The later results in officers being disabled and killed sometimes by the resisting thug.

You have to keep in mind the folks you see on these shows are the most extreme characters videoed because reasonably compliant thugs don't make for interesting TV, therefore the image of the average criminal is distorted badly by...TV.

IlikeSA
May 15, 2011, 01:27 AM
All I can say is "Stop! or I'll yell stop again!"

The police at the airport had an MP5, or at least a H&K sub gun, from what I could see. I didn't like England when I visited and definitely did not feel safe there. Ireland, on the other hand, was very friendly and my wife and I felt quite safe.

MachIVshooter
May 15, 2011, 07:40 AM
Ireland, on the other hand, was very friendly and my wife and I felt quite safe.

That's funny. I'd rather be in St. Louis at 3 AM than Dublin. At least in STL, I can defend myself.

Boanerges57
May 15, 2011, 08:17 AM
I lived in britain for nearly 20 years.

I dont blame most of the violence there on unarmed police. It is a societal cancer. It has been nurtured for decades. I can remember 14 year old kids kicking a 80 yo granny to death in a park. And that isnt even the worst of it.

There is a lot of pride about how great the society is and how great the laws are, most people dont realize that the levels of non gun related crime are enormous.

The british government knew there was a minimum of 1 million illegal firearms in the country back in 1980.
I witnessed enough to know the fishermen bring more than just drugs in. I also know that in many areas the police look elsewhere when this is happening.
I could walk into one small town with a handgun and 14 rounds and end the drug distribution for half of the country and come out with a few rounds to spare. But they dont fear that, the serious criminals are fearless.

I left the country because I was fed up seeing it torn apart by thugs (neds).
It isnt a bad place, it just isnt as quiet and proper as everyone thinks.

It is frustrating and demoralizing.
I couldnt ever comment on the situation there because I was considered to believe what I do because I am an american. Nevermind the fact that I lived there for 19 years from the age of 4.
Honestly id more concerned with seeing armed cops, it usually means you need to not be where you are. They do not arm their police unless they stand a terrible chance of making it down the street without a gun and proper body armor.

InkEd
May 15, 2011, 08:52 AM
I have known career police officers that never had to draw their weapon except to qualify periodically. They are very fortunate in that respect. However, I could not imagine doing police work without a firearm. The risks are just too high to do it unarmed.

It does seem that UK police are quicker to use their batons in a confrontation than US police. The practice seems more accepted by the people too. The cultures are very different.

Ole Coot
May 15, 2011, 09:09 AM
I have a close friend with more than 25yrs on the state police force. Couple of weeks ago a meth dealer pulled a knife and asked how long he was willing to wait for him to drop the knife. He simply responded, until I know you're dead. He dropped the knife, wasn't that stupid. An armed officer ended a bad situation because he was armed and no person was hurt. All officers deserve respect, if the badge and uniform don't work the handgun will.

MachIVshooter
May 15, 2011, 12:17 PM
It does seem that UK police are quicker to use their batons in a confrontation than US police. The practice seems more accepted by the people too. The cultures are very different.

Depends on the locale. My wife worked in two city/county jails as a nurse. A surprising number of people came in pretty beat up. Those two agencies have also had a great many excessive force complaints and lawsuits. One fellow was recently awarded $800K in a settlement from injuries sustained during an arrest a couple years ago. She had been there at that time, said the guy was so beat up she's surprised he was recognizable later.

Cops here have proved to be rather quick on the trigger with tasers the last few years, too.

IMO, there are basically two types of cops. There are the good ones who really do want to make a difference and help people/get the bad guys, and then there are those who are just playground bullies in grown up form. Unfortunately, I think there are too many of the latter in every nation on this planet.

snatale42
May 15, 2011, 02:55 PM
I was thinking that the cops in the US wouldnt put up with the crap the Brit cops do, and I do believe the respect begins with the fact that the US police man is armed

Sure does, where do you think "An armed society is a polite society" came from.

SpeedAKL
May 16, 2011, 01:29 PM
The following is just a layman/tourist's observations and does not in any way represent a complete picture of UK guns/crime:

I saw armed police quite frequently in London, usually with SWAT-type gear and H&K MP5s at the ready. There are plenty of unarmed cops as well - they seem to run a two-tier system of unarmed officers conducting law and order alongside heavily-armed SWAT-style units designed to deal with violent criminals. London definitely had more of the second type than I had expected, but it makes sense given the potential terrorist threat there. The UK is unfortunately one of the largest exporters of violent jihad at the moment.

In East and South London, where most of the violent crime occurs, knives seem to be the weapon of choice. I was explicitly told at the university not to go into certain neighborhoods after dark unless I want to get shanked. Not too different from a big American city in certain regards. I did catch a few stories in the local papers about gang activites surrounding the drug trade which mentioned that the police are seizing more and more full-auto firearms like Uzis and AK-47s that are used in crimes. Firearms aren't much more difficult to smuggle in by sea than drugs, and (like the US) the drug trade there is quite lucrative.

A guy I know grew up in a rough area of Nottingham. His mother is finally moving out but was dealing with near-constant harrassment from gangs and thugs. I see a lot of posts in the comments section of newspaper stories complaining about increasing crime in UK cities. The US still has a higher murder rate but the UK is higher in other violent crime categories. A lot of the crime seems to be driven by inner-city ethnic gangs in immigrant-heavy neighborhoods. Most of these neighborhoods have lots of public housing; I remember a set of high-rise projects near the school that was filled mostly with poor immigrants from Pakistan and northern Africa. It was well-known as a gang hangout. This is similar to the US, as most of our crime is caused by inner-city gangs in mostly black and Hispanic neighborhoods.

The only potential upside of this deteriorating situation is that perhaps a pro self-defense movement will grow stronger in the UK and restore some of the rights they have lost.

Cearbhall
May 16, 2011, 05:18 PM
If the UK can't trust somebody with a gun then why would they trust him to be a cop?

Owen Sparks
May 16, 2011, 05:23 PM
Do the police in the UK wear vests like they do here?

azmjs
May 16, 2011, 05:44 PM
I had a British person tell me once that the police in the UK called him "sir," and in the US he called the police "sir."

Mk VII
May 16, 2011, 07:16 PM
Much more so in recent years. They're stab vests, not bullet resistant vests.

eye5600
May 17, 2011, 02:59 PM
Here is a comment in response to blog entry at http://allbleedingstops.blogspot.com/

We've not now had a gun homicide in London for 13 weeks but the other night some youths chased some others into a store in south London and managed to shoot and injure a five year old girl and a man, both bystanders. Both are stable. This is why we are determined to rid the streets of guns here.

I thought it was pretty interesting because the evidence could be interpreted two ways. The antis would like 13 weeks with without a gun death, and the pros would point out that the bystanders were sitting ducks.

As I understand it, the UK took away everyone's (legal) handguns. I wonder how many gun deaths there were per year before they did that.

TexasBill
May 17, 2011, 08:09 PM
Loved the above quote. I thought the Brits had already rid the streets of guns. What they don't seem to understand is they still have violence because haven't rid the streets of criminals.

bubbacrabb
May 17, 2011, 08:30 PM
If the communist countries of Europe have not already set an example for us here in the USA I fear we are already lost like they are. Our country was founded upon freedom, at what point do we start a 2nd Revolutionary war? I fear that time may come to late when its way to far gone. England citizens told us years ago dont think it cant happen to you, it happened to us. Still people here are to ignorant to see the big picture. This country will only be fought back the way it started.

Limey46
May 17, 2011, 10:15 PM
I've been shot at in Miami and had guns in my face in New York, but my closest call was in London in 1966. Three officers of the Metropolitan Police Force, mistaking me for a gay person, took me off the street and down an alley in Camden Town and set about me with truncheons, knuckledusters, and a two-foot steel pry bar. They broke five of my ribs and both my collar bones, but mostly they went for my head: broken nose, broken jaw, broken cheekbones, smashed teeth, and six skull fractures. They left me where I lay and I almost died.

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