[lizziedog1]

Am I the only one that can't seem to find a fixed sight handgun to hit somewhere in the vicinity that I am aiming?

Adjustable sights on a handgun are almost a mandatory feature for me. They at least have to be windage adjustable, even if it means by drifting the rear sight. But fixed one? Forget it!

Handguns with a groove for a rear sight are about as useless as certain appendages are on boars. A blow gun would serve me better in a SD situation.

I know that I am not great handgunner, and that I need more practice. But with an adjustable sight I am ususally able to adjust them to hit where I am aiming. My Single Six in 32 Magnum has adjustable rear sights, nice ones I might add. I moved them around a bit and right now I hit pretty close to where I aim. I had a Vaquero years ago. If I had to shoot a BG with it, the safest place for him to be would have been straight in front of me. I used all sorts of rests and sandbags. I finaly sold it.

So, am I the only fixed sight failure here?

[earlthegoat2]

With fixed sights you have to test it with different bullet weights to find the right elevation and then you can drift the rear for windage. Then only use the same ammo or ammo you have also tested for point of aim.

[lizziedog1]

With fixed sights you have to test it with different bullet weights to find the right elevation and then you can drift the rear for windage. Then only use the same ammo or ammo you have also tested for point of aim.


I do test different ammo. I even reload , that gives me the ability for an infinite number of loads to try.

Trust me, it did not help. Elevation-wise, I can sometimes find a load that gets close. But windage, that is another animal that I can't seem to tame.

I would love to find a fixed sight handgun that would hit sort of where I am aiming. Not having to adjust and worry about a sight would be nice. But so far, no luck.

Right now I won't even consider purchasing a fixed sight handgun.

[Hunt480]

Adjustable sights on a handgun are almost a mandatory feature for me.
I load all my ammo too,but I do not like fixed sights but thats me. I tend to buy guns that have adjustable sights or have them available as an option. I just bought a Glock 20 yesterday and that will be the first thing I address is that fixed sight as I trick out this for hunting. All my revolvers have adjustable with fiber optic fronts. Not sure why fixed is popular with Auto's

[tlmkr38]

this may be something you have tried but do you shoot with both eyes open or with your dominant eye? I had to learn to shoot with both open as I am left handed and right eye dominant. It will make a difference in POI. If this is happening with every fixed sight handgun you shoot I would say it is something like this, If it was just the one gun it might have needed the barrel turned some.

I bought a Colt 22 one time and needed the barrel turned some as you could look down it and see the sights not aligned.

That said, for some reason I prefer adjustable sights on revolvers but pixed sights on autos... Usually don't adjust them much but just like them like that...

[jmorris]

I have found that if they are adjustable you never have to touch them and if they are fixed they need adjustment.

It's really not a deal breaker either way, it's not too hard to adjust fixed sights and you can get some darn tough adjustable sights these days.

[WC145]

I have no troubles with fixed sights. Earlier this week we had a couple of days of qualifying and training and we all had fixed sight guns - Kimber and S&W 1911's, a couple of Glocks, a Beretta Px4, and a Ruger P-series .40. We worked on some longer distance shooting and everyone was consistently hitting 1ft square steel targets out to about 65yds and several of us were making consistent hits in the 80-100yd range. The sights on all of the guns were as installed and set up at the factories. My gun is a S&W 1911 9mm Pro Series.

[mljdeckard]

If I have fixed sights that aren't accurate enough or need adjusting, I have a smith do it. (the only ones I can think of that needed it were on my Sigma .40.)

[M2 Carbine]

Am I the only one that can't seem to find a fixed sight handgun to hit somewhere in the vicinity that I am aiming?
I have a lot of fixed sight guns that shoot POA but I also have a good number that shoot off, high, low, right, left.

Given the choice, almost all my guns would have adjustable sights.

[amprecon]

I don't believe in adjustable sights on a defensive handgun, I've never really had a big enough problem with them that a little windage adjustment couldn't fix.
Now a range target handgun, that'd be a different story.

[Animal Mother]

If I'm target shooting, then adjustable sights are a requirement for me. If its CCW/HD weapon, fixed sights are usually sufficient.

[BossHogg]

I like the adjustable sights but it's not a deal breaker if the right gun comes along. Shoot them both about the same just have to know your limitations. The gun usually out shoots me.

[BCRider]

Well, first off there's fixed and there's "fixed". I don't really consider sights in dovetails to be fixed since they can be drifted over to compensate for a host of issues. The REAL fixed sights are on such guns as old SA cowboy guns and a lot of the S&W guns such as the Model 10 where the rear sight is actually a groove cut in the frame. It's likely more accurate to call this style "integrated" since it's cut right into the frame.

For integrated sights the issue is typically the grip method of the shooter. Granted there's likely some where the tolerances of attachment of the barrel comes into play such that the gun can't shoot at greater distances without being way off to one side. But for the most part they are pretty close and the height of the front sight is made to be the right height for the prefferred loading of the gun.

For example, I can shoot my fixed sight Model 10 just fine. If I'm missing it's likely because my finger isn't pulling the trigger just right and is pushing or pulling the gun. But my "plowshare" cowboy guns always shoot way off to the left for me. I've had to radically alter how I hold these guns and learn to lean my head way over to the right since I shoot "cross eyed" with a right hand hold but using my left eye since it's sharper than my right one. Now that I'm doing both these things with my cowboy guns that have integrated sights I'm getting groups that are shaking hands with the bullseye. Up to now the groupings were nice enough but they were only within semaphore distance of the bullseye.

For the cases of semi autos I'd strongly suggest that in most cases it'll be your grip or posture that is sending the rounds off to the sides. This, of course, assumes that your groups are tight and just over to the side indicating that there's no flinching issue. If not then you need to deal with muscle control and get rid of the flinch first. Once you're shooting nice tight groups then you can play with how your strong hand is holding the gun and how much finger you put onto the trigger. Even how your trigger finger "hinges" and which joints you move the most comes into play with this. If the pull on the trigger isn't straight back and neutral side to side it can make the gun jump sideways in your hand at the point of firing due to how the hand and trigger finger forces add up and are released when the gun first jumps.

[9mmepiphany]

This has been my experience as well. To shoot accurately, you need to have a consistent, and even grip as well as a controlled trigger press...it really doesn't matter if the sights are fixed or adjustable...I like the intergrated tag for pistols using the topstrap groove as therear sight. I should note that even these can be adjusted through filing the read notch or the front blade.

The first thing that should be addressed with a new gun is to check it's zero from a rested position...usually sandbags on a bench. This should be done with a bullet of the the original design weight 158gr for .38spl or .357 magnum, 230gr for .45ACP, etc.

After establishing where the gun hits with these standard weights, you can adjust the sights for your preferred bullet weight. Some calibers vary widely (.357), some do not (.45 ACP). Once you have established that zero of the gun, you'll need to determine where the gun shoots in your hand. For most folks, any difference between POI of the two has to due with improper gripping of the gun.

BTW: remember that SAA type pistols have always come with front sights that caused them to shoot low...overly tall front sights...when zeroed with 250gr bullets. This was done to allow adjustment of vertical zero by filing down the front sight

I've personally never had to touch the sights on my Sigs, Berettas, Glocks, or H&Ks

[Vern Humphrey]

It depends on the gun and the sights.

I found a beautiful Colt New Service in .45 Colt a few years ago -- it was beautiful because it had been re-blued and aggressively buffed, blurring the markings badly. I bought it as a "shooter" at an appropriately low price.

It shot 18" high and 12" to the left. Some "shooter!!"

In short, I decided to solder on a new front sight. Now the original front sight was about as thick as a razor blade, with a rear sight to match. That would never do, but it gave me an idea. I selected a 1/8 thick piece of steel and calculated the necessary height.

I made the new sight 1 3/16 high, just a bit over the calculated height and went back to the bench. I fount that by holding the top of the new sight dead level with the top of the frame, I could get repeatable elevation, but windage was all over the place, since I couldn't center the new, wider front sight in the tiny rear sight notch. But I was able to file the front sight until I had correct elevation.

The next trick was to open up the rear notch to fit the front sight -- and correct the windage at the same time. Since the gun was shooting way left, I did all my filing on the right side of the notch. By the time the rear notch was wide enough for that new, wide front sight, the pistol was dead on.

[PabloJ]

Am I the only one that can't seem to find a fixed sight handgun to hit somewhere in the vicinity that I am aiming?

Adjustable sights on a handgun are almost a mandatory feature for me. They at least have to be windage adjustable, even if it means by drifting the rear sight. But fixed one? Forget it!

Handguns with a groove for a rear sight are about as useless as certain appendages are on boars. A blow gun would serve me better in a SD situation.

I know that I am not great handgunner, and that I need more practice. But with an adjustable sight I am ususally able to adjust them to hit where I am aiming. My Single Six in 32 Magnum has adjustable rear sights, nice ones I might add. I moved them around a bit and right now I hit pretty close to where I aim. I had a Vaquero years ago. If I had to shoot a BG with it, the safest place for him to be would have been straight in front of me. I used all sorts of rests and sandbags. I finaly sold it.

So, am I the only fixed sight failure here?
Two that shot to poa for me were the H&K PSP and S&W model 13.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

I have one fixed sight revolver, A S&W Fourth Change .38 spl (converted from .38 S&W) British contract K-frame, built around 1942.

Point of Impact is pretty much Point of Aim using my reloads of 158 grain Lee tumble lube SWC 158 grain over 3.7 grains 700X. Love this revolver.

[Remo223]

I've never had to adjust any sights. Sure, you will find a gun here and there that shoots a little off AT A CERTAIN DISTANCE. But at another distance, it might be right on. I've never bothered to adjust for elevation...just make a mental note of it and adjust my eye instead. As for windage, I've never had a handgun that was off. I own very few adjustable sight handguns. in fact, I think only two. I prefer not to buy anything with adjustable sights.

If you really need it perfect for shooting from a rest, maybe you should buy a scope. Otherwise I say it's not an issue.

[sixgunner455]

Never had that issue. Fixed are fine. :D Had more issues with adjustables wearing/breaking/snagging on things.

[M2 Carbine]

I have some good examples of fixed sight guns shooting off.

Three Polish P-64 9x18 pistols.
One shoots right, one left and one shoots centered.

Two 2 inch S&W Model 10 revolvers.
One shoots right on. The other shoots 3 inches left at 10 yards.

Of 6 S&W J Frames, 3 shoot off one way or another.

Of 4 Kimber Ultras, three are right on and the 4th shoots low.


Over the years I've come to consider it a plus if I buy a fixed sight gun and it shoots right on.

[Vern Humphrey]

Fixed sights are not that hard to adjust -- even my Colt New Service with such extreme deviation from the sights was fixable.

[los]

... Adjustable sights on a handgun are almost a mandatory feature for me...

Handguns with a groove for a rear sight are about as useless as certain appendages are on boars. A blow gun would serve me better in a SD situation.

Sights...? I dunt ned no stink'in sights...! :)

Video clip..:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/th_MVI_0009.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/?action=view&current=MVI_0009.mp4)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/los3088/AMTBackUp45inHand-img0012-650.jpg

[SwampWolf]

Sure, you will find a gun here and there that shoots a little off AT A CERTAIN DISTANCE. But at another distance, it might be right on.

Maybe so if you're only talking about elevation but if your fixed sight firearm is off on windage, it'll likely be off at every distance.

[Ole Coot]

I won't drive tacks with fixed sights but at SD ranges I can keep my shots where they will do the most good. Target shooting is a different animal.

[RugerMcMarlin]

You didn't specify caliber but in my experience if it' s a 38special by either Smith & Wesson, or Colt built since WWII, it is regulated for 158 Grain, standard velocity cartridge. Same for 357mag, 158 grn, at 357 velocity,range of 25 yards. Lighter bullets will hit slightly lower. for 1911's with fixed sights, most will be factory regulated for 230 grain bullets at standard velocity. Again at 25 yards. As for your Vaquero I'm just guessing but I bet its the usual on again off again chamber mouth/Bore diameter issues with 45 LC (Colt) caliber. I have had a couple of 38s that were off a little in windage but only with jacketed bullets!!? I suspect it had more to do with bullet length/bearing surface than lead vs jacketed.

[foghornl]

My (fix sight) Vaquero shoots to the left a bit, while my (adj sight) Blackhawk is dead on out of the box...

go figure......

I just don't feel like grinding/filing/polishing, etc on the Vaquero to even up the POA/POI equation..although since it is the glossy stainless model, no re-blue required.

[Hunt480]

For hunting revolvers I got to have adjustable with fiber optic fronts. I'm decent enough to take deer at 50 yards with that set up but a lot better as the distance closes in. I got this set up on a 44 SRH,475 BFR and a 480 SRH. I shoot longer distances when practicing with good groups. I reload all my ammo and sight in for 50 yards and you need to be able to adjust your sights. I don't have any use for fixed sights on nothing not unless its a purpose gun like my pocket LCP but thats just me. Some folks like to guess and adjust while they shoot and some are so good they don't even need sights but I do.

[Cop Bob]

Dang LOS,, that was some pretty righteous with that pea shooter... !! Nice work..!!

Lizziedog, I wish I could see a target that you have shot at a know distance.. Targets talk.. You can tell a lot about what you are doing just from seeing the target and knowing the point of aim..

Most fixed sight guns are pretty darn close, especially the smiths and colts that I have come across..

There were several posts that offered good info, but it would be nice to see a target.. the both eyes open is a real deal... you will naturally be using your dominant eye.. Grip and trigger control are also vital.. it must me proper, and it must be repeated consistanly..

as far as sight adjustment of fixed sights, it can be done.. and the degree of difficulty in doing so depends on the gun design.. it has been talked about in this thread buy some guys that have some solid knowledge...

I have seen many folks step to the firing line and claim that their sights were off, when all it took was a little coaching..

As eluded too earlier, there will usually be some vertical stringing of shot placement with different velocity's and bullet weights.. but that is normal... Usually just the difference between a 6 o'clock hold and a dead on hold at 25 yards...

Good luck... I bet it can be worked out...

[Malamute]

I'm a believer in adjustable sights. I've used and abused various Ruger and Smith revolvers for 30 years or so and havent had any real problem with adjustables. I dropped a 29 on a truck bumper once and broke the rear sight blade, but it was still functional. I've had a number of fixed sight guns that are a pain in the behind to shoot when they didnt all hit the same. Shoot farther distances and the difference in POA and POI becomes more problematic. I reckon it's OK if you want to monkey around with Kentucky windage to make a hit, but shoot a couple different guns, and I just feel it becomes a nuisance. I"ve done the adjusting fixed sights thing, but it's a pain to deal with filing and otherwise tinkering when good adjustables are so simple to use, and generally give a cleaner sight picture in any event.

I'm a bit surprised that folks don't seem to mind if a gun that their life may depend on doesnt hit exactly where they want it to, but a sport gun is more appropriate for having really good sights. If my life depends on a gun, I want it to hit exactly where I want it to, at whatever range I chose to sight in in for. No, you may not choose to make a shot with a defensive gun at distance, or expect it to happen, but being able to sure makes sense if the moment happened, instead of sitting there doing nothing, thinking that you can't, because you only have a 2" gun (or whatever) that you only shoot at X yards in practice, and you couldnt keep your shots on the paper at distance. I've shot a 2" Smith 38 at a couple hundred yards on several occasions, it hit consistantly, but off to the side by a couple feet or so. The gun was quite capable of hitting the plate we were shooting at, but the sights (or lack of hitting exactly POA) were the weak point. Adjustables would make hits at that range (or any range) much easier. Not that anyone shoots those distances regularly with a short gun, but why handicap yourself right off the bat? The biggest problem with shooting it at that range was the sights not being regulated for the range and load, not the gun or caliber. I also want to choose a load and be able to shoot up to the guns ability, not have the gun choose the load and have me try to make use of it. Once in a while I decide the change loads also, adjustables make that a simple process.

Years ago, before Vaqueros were available, I had thoughts of making a fixed sight Ruger SA. Now, I have a couple Vaqueros, and am thinking about having Smith K frame adjustables and custom front sights put on them. The sights on the Vaqueros arent as easy to see or clear as adjustables, especially in poor light.