trench shotgun


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fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 04:02 PM
I'm considering buying a new production copy of the old trench pump action shotgun. Does anyone have one that can tell me whether they are worth having. I want ot bc I think they look really cool. My lgs has one for $369. I think they are made in China. That's why I am concerned about it being a piece of garbage.

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fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 09:13 PM
Surely someone here has a trench shotgun

mr_goodbomb
May 14, 2011, 09:36 PM
Are you thinking about the Modern Warfare trench gun? That's a Winchester M1987, and it functions the same as just about any 5-shell pump shotgun.

fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 10:39 PM
The norinco 1897 style is what I'm talking about. I think the real ones were used in world war 1 & 2. I'm just concerned about the quality of the gun.

mnrivrat
May 14, 2011, 10:51 PM
If your into reinactment, or have a thing for old military, you may be OK with what you get. They are not great shotguns for a person who wants to shoot a lot, or for someone (IMO) who wants to rely on the gun for HD .

If you want a short barreled shotgun of very good quality then stick with Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 guns as they are the top choices for many.

Other choices like finding original Model 1897 guns, or Model 12 Winchester guns that can or have been shortened is another choice. I think the local shop her just put a very nice Winchester M12 on Gunbroker for around the price of the Chinese guns. It has a bad spot in the barrel but can be cut to 19 inches to give someone an excellant shotgun.

fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 11:01 PM
Mnrivrat, I do have a thing for old military. I haven't really looked to see what a real one would costs but I'm sure more than I want to pay. I really love that look and that is the main reason I'm wanting one if these. The real deal isn't really important . I would prolly only shoot it very occasionally.

fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 11:04 PM
I just don't know anything about the norinco and did not want to be throwing my money away if it is really no good.

jon_in_wv
May 14, 2011, 11:09 PM
I have one and its a great shotgun. The Norinco 1897s are also very popular in cowboy action shooting so they do do work very well. It can and will do anything a Remington 870 can do. It can also do something an 870 doesn't do. It "slam fires" by holding the trigger down and working the pump. Its fun. I do agree that if you are looking for purely a defensive shotgun an 870 is probably a better way to go but for a "cool" factor the 97 has the 870 beat hands down.

fallout mike
May 14, 2011, 11:18 PM
Jon, that is what I was hoping to hear bc I really want to buy one. I've went to the lgs and fondled it a couple of times but I take my time to make up my mind before I spend any money.

ifit
May 15, 2011, 06:46 AM
purchased one couple years back, my first shotgun. was suppose to pick up a norinco lever shotgun, then my dealer showed me the trench and it was all over. i have been shootin clays with it, slugs out of it and on ocasion some slam fires. the first thing my friends always tell me when they handle it is.....dam this thing is heavy. for a copy of the trench gun i think ist pretty good and reliable so far.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/075.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/070.jpg

fallout mike
May 15, 2011, 08:37 AM
Ifit, is that an original bayonet for the 1897? Also, will it shoot 3" shells?

Z71
May 15, 2011, 11:25 PM
I own a TTN shotgun..basicaly a Norinco M1897...chambered for 2 3/4" shells only...mine has choke tubes.

Works pretty decent..reliable...all steel except walnut stocks and plastic buttplate(brass bead site)..took some breaking in..but pumps/functions decently smooth with some lubrication and use.

I bought mine a few years back when AIM Surplus had them on close-out sale for $199. These make a great $200 shotgun....I do think I would buy something else if I had to pay more than $300 for one.

ifit
May 16, 2011, 03:08 AM
its not the original bayonet, my ffl dealer some how modified that particular bayonet to fit, will check the make of that bayo. thanks for confirming z71 on the 2-3/4 shells only.

451 Detonics
May 16, 2011, 11:02 AM
An original trench gun can be pricey but you can get a decent buy on a good Winchester 1897 with careful shopping and then have it cut and add on a replica heat shield. Should be able to get one set up for under $600.

andrewstorm
May 16, 2011, 11:30 AM
:cool: buy american!

Mudinyeri
May 16, 2011, 01:28 PM
I came across a cheap Mossberg 500 that I turned into a Trench Gun look-alike (minus the bayonet lug).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/Mossberg%20500/IMG_6304.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Guns/Mossberg%20500/IMG_6302.jpg

fallout mike
May 16, 2011, 03:33 PM
And the hammer

Mudinyeri
May 16, 2011, 05:29 PM
And the hammer
True enough.

JNewell
May 16, 2011, 07:36 PM
The 1897 design comes from a period when guns were essentially hand-fitted in the Winchester factory. I hate to be the voice of caution, but if you think you can get anything approaching that degree of workmanship, which is required for the gun to run at a level that I'd trust for anything more than reeancting, at that price point from China, I think you should reconsider. A used Remington or Mossberg will function much better for less cash. If looks is the primary mission, however, by all means, grab the Norinco.

fallout mike
May 16, 2011, 08:39 PM
Looks is my main concern with this particular gun, however, I want to be able to shoot it from time to time without it falling apart also.

jon_in_wv
May 16, 2011, 09:50 PM
The 1897 design comes from a period when guns were essentially hand-fitted in the Winchester factory. I hate to be the voice of caution, but if you think you can get anything approaching that degree of workmanship, which is required for the gun to run at a level that I'd trust for anything more than reeancting, at that price point from China, I think you should reconsider. A used Remington or Mossberg will function much better for less cash. If looks is the primary mission, however, by all means, grab the Norinco.

The same could very easily be said about the S&W revolver or the 1911, but to be real, modern manufacturing techniques have improved more than a little bit and its possible to create parts with much greater tolerances than in the past and with better heat treating and alloys. I suspect a modern Norinco is every bit as durable as an old 1897 Winchester.
CAS is also hardly "re-enacting". Its some pretty serious competition which involves a LOT of handling and many, many rounds through these weapons. They wouldn't be popular with these guys if they didn't work. You may be letting a little prejudice blind you to the facts my friend.

boltgunnerguy
May 16, 2011, 10:00 PM
Looks is my main concern with this particular gun, however, I want to be able to shoot it from time to time without it falling apart also.
get an 870 trench gun conversion kit and use on a 870 or h&r pardner pump............

jon_in_wv
May 16, 2011, 11:43 PM
Ok, where are you getting your information that it will, "fall apart" from shooting it? Obviously not from anyone who owns one or happens to know anything about the subject.

millertyme
May 17, 2011, 12:37 AM
Go ahead and get it. I have a couple buddies that sound like they got theirs on the same deal as the others for $200 or so. Fun to shoot and the hammer is kind of a nice touch. They've shots hundreds of rounds out of theirs and if they weren't satisfied I would hear about it. One of them is a real whiner.

fallout mike
May 17, 2011, 06:51 AM
Jon, I did not get that information from anywhere. That is the entire purpose of this thread. I do not know anything about this gun and wanted To make sure that it was not a poc that would fall apart. I'm just asking.

mr16ga
May 17, 2011, 02:30 PM
Best thing about a 1897 is how it can chew your thumb if you don't hold it right. Save your money and buy an original Winchester 1897 or a Remington M11 trench gun.

Girodin
May 17, 2011, 04:29 PM
The see a lot of use in cowboy action shooting. You may try to search the web for the opinions of those users. You will hear a lot of yellow scare rhetoric from folks that have never even handled one. Personally I'd discount it.

RugerMcMarlin
May 17, 2011, 06:49 PM
I think the original M12 and M97 Riot and trench guns came with 20" bbls,I only mention this because its easy to forget, their tube mags actually hold 1 more round. If your going to prune one, might as well look stock, even without the CYL on the barrel.

jon_in_wv
May 17, 2011, 10:11 PM
Are you going to start a thread to see if M12 or M97 riots "fall apart" if you shoot them? How about Remington 870s? It seems you have already formed an opinion based on the nonsense the anti-chinese prejudiced trolls are spewing rather than be objective. If the Norincos were unsafe or "fell apart" when you shot them they wouldn't be as popular as they are. They certainly wouldn't be used in shooting competitions by serious competitors.

RugerMcMarlin
May 17, 2011, 10:26 PM
Sorry Jon, didnt know you were Chinese. But as most of us shop at wallyworld, and have lots of experience with china based product, I think he has a legitimate question.

It has been brought to my attention, that my this comment is both childish and racist. My original comment about M12s and M97s really could have done without your rant as well.

Now when someone says they block you is that like saying I dont agree with you, and I think anything else you say will be equally stupid and dont care to hear further from you again, thats cool..
WHERES THAT BUTTON!

451 Detonics
May 18, 2011, 02:30 PM
It seems you have already formed an opinion based on the nonsense the anti-chinese prejudiced trolls are spewing rather than be objective. If the Norincos were unsafe or "fell apart" when you shot them they wouldn't be as popular as they are. They certainly wouldn't be used in shooting competitions by serious competitors.

I have to agree, the number of Chinese guns being used in competition is substantial. I will add tho many have them fluffed by gunsmiths familiar with the design to smooth them up. However I think personally I would find a decent used 1897, they can be found for around $400 for a good one with blueing wear and order a replica heat shield from East Taylor LLC http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/winreparts.html for $175, cut the barrel to 20 inches and put one together yourself.

fallout mike
May 18, 2011, 05:47 PM
Jon, I have no idea how popular they are. Like I said , I know nothing about this gun, hence, the purpose of this thread. The only experience I have had with Chinese made gun related items are the countless number of Chinese scopes some of my apparently retarded friends continue to buy, throw away when it stops functioning properly, and then buy another one. I just wanted input from people here that may have the same gun.

fallout mike
May 18, 2011, 05:52 PM
Jon, also, like I said, thanks to your experience that you shared, I'm leaning towards getting the norinco ay this time. However, I take my time before spending money and my mind could change.

Jim Watson
May 18, 2011, 06:18 PM
Early Chicom knockoffs of Winchester '97 were pretty sad but they have improved quality since and there is a cottage industry polishing up the works for fast shooting in CAS.
There are also gunsmiths keeping real Winchesters up and running, too; so if you want a hammer pump you can have it.

JNewell
May 18, 2011, 07:38 PM
The same could very easily be said about the S&W revolver or the 1911, but to be real, modern manufacturing techniques have improved more than a little bit and its possible to create parts with much greater tolerances than in the past and with better heat treating and alloys. I suspect a modern Norinco is every bit as durable as an old 1897 Winchester.
CAS is also hardly "re-enacting". Its some pretty serious competition which involves a LOT of handling and many, many rounds through these weapons. They wouldn't be popular with these guys if they didn't work. You may be letting a little prejudice blind you to the facts my friend.

Well, my friend, I don't have any prejudice, not even a little, against Chinese products. In fact, if you were to read posts of mine elsewhere, you'd find that I am a vehement defender of free trade and open minds. You need a thicker skin, perhaps.

The fact is that the design of the M12 and M97 inescapably involve a lot of handwork. If the M97 were adaptable to the same types of production changes that the M1911 is, you would see onshore production of the M97. Instead what we see is a substantial demand for aftermarket services to make these run well in CAS.

In any case, I will stand by my original point. If the desire is for a shotgun with classic, best-in-class looks, get a M97. If the desire is for a gun that will give reliable service and run forever, look for a used 870 or 500.

jon_in_wv
May 18, 2011, 10:45 PM
My skin is plenty thick and I wasn't offended in the least so lets not try to divert the topic or minimize my statements by trying to infer otherwise. It doesn't make your statements any more true nor does it discount any of mine. If you took the time to quote my statement and disagree with it than do so on the facts. The fact is you inferred the M1897 Norinco is only suitable to "re-enactments" and isn't durable or capable enough for anything else. If you feel that is true and I am incorrect than provide something to support your statement rather than feigning insult like thats the same thing.

Additionally, I went through FIVE pages of your posts, I'm not going to search all 2000+, and I found NO evidence of what you claimed above. You did however post twice about the Norinco claiming you had some expertise in the manufacture and design of the M97 and stating the Norincos were substandard then a third time you posted about the Winchester 97 and you acted like you had no idea how the mechanism was designed. To call a spade a spade you did have a lot of posts about the Remington 870 and the Winchester 1300 and you sound like an experienced and knowledgeable shotgunner. I would NOT presume to question any statement you made about either of them or shotgunning techniques for that matter. I do also assume you don't have a Norinco 97 or have a lot of experience with one and your statements are based more on you bias for the quality of the American guns over the Norinco. The modern shotguns do have a much better fit and finish (questionable, the bluing on my Norinco is really pretty nice) and they are much slicker and more reliable. That doesn't make the Norinco dangerous, useless, fragile, or only good for re-enactments or just "looking cool" because they can manufacturer it and sell it at the same price you are buying Remmies and Winchesters. I have several Russian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, and Spanish pistols that are much cheaper than the M&P 9C that is my daily carry. I don't think any of them are as good of a weapon as the M&P but that doesn't mean any of them are substandard, unreliable, or couldn't be pressed into very effective service for self defense. A really good example would be my Hungarian FEG PJK-9HP. The fit and finish are as good as any Browning I've seen, it has been 100% reliable, and its one of the most accurate handguns I own. Somehow the Hungarians managed to make the complicated and intricate Hi-Power at a price point that is about a 1/3 of a BHP. A few years back Colts were considered unreliable without a trip to the gunsmith and now the Filipinos are cranking reliable 1911s for a much lower price point than the Colts.

ifit
May 19, 2011, 12:43 AM
nothing wrong with owning chinese firearms, well maybe to some people but i absolutely love them, and been very reliable. just picked up an awesome feg hp couple days ago for a meesly $200 bucks;) oh by the way the chinese copy of a tokarev below is a double stack, takes 15 rounds of 9mm, as a plus it uses the bhp mags also:cool:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/521-1.jpg

jon_in_wv
May 20, 2011, 03:48 PM
Careful, the Hi-power comes from a period when guns were essentially hand-fitted in the factory. I hate to be the voice of caution, but if you think you can get anything approaching that degree of workmanship, which is required for the gun to run at a level that I'd trust for anything more than reeancting, at that price point from Hungary. (Note:Sarcasm)

Mike, next weekend I'll go to the range with my Norinco and I'll shoot a few rounds and do a review for you. I think you'll see they work pretty well. I'll post it on Youtube and I'll send a link to you.

fallout mike
May 20, 2011, 04:40 PM
Thanks Jon. I look forward to it.

Drail
May 20, 2011, 08:51 PM
I worked for a dealer who sold Norinco 1911s and we were actually amazed at the quality of the gun at the price. We never had any problems with their products and actually used quite a few as the base gun for some really good competition pistols. The steel that they used was very good quality.

RugerMcMarlin
May 20, 2011, 09:49 PM
I my self have owned and shot Norinco 1911A1s and Type 56 clones. I think they are fine, and I dig Chrome lined bores. The question was" how bout that chinee mod 97" (paraphrased). We ordered 3 in, got 2 back, and the 3rd never got off the pad. (double feeds/lifter probs) The early ones were a waste of Good Steel. They may be better now. I have not experienced anything to convince me they are. They say if you can't say something good....and I didn't intend to, until you went all hormonal. Maybe you can bring up something about the chinese and their human rights record , thats got nothing to do with the original question either.

I hope the moral high grounders don't interpret disapproval, of their human rights record as racism, if it is there's a lot of us.

andrewstorm
May 21, 2011, 09:37 AM
After i saw this thread ,i was sickened :barf:that so many americans were not worried about buying chinese,the next day i went to a estate sale and lo and behold there sat a 90% condition 97 riot gun,20 in cylinder bore,i took it home for only 300.oo bucks,seek and you shall find ,knock and it shall be opened unto you,buy chinese and your economy shall fall.:eek:

jon_in_wv
May 21, 2011, 10:12 AM
Really? Shall we take an inventory of your property and see where all your clothing, cars, electronics, household goods, etc....were made? You conveniently choose firearms as your moral high ground. I wish people did buy American. Our country would still be a strong manufacturing hub if we did. The fact is MOST products we ALL buy are foreign made. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and sit here on my Taiwan made chair, wearing my Korean made shoes, and my Indian made clothes and whine about someone else buying a product from another country and nor should YOU. Instead of getting angry at someone for buying a foreign made shotgun from an American dealer why arent' you mad at General Motors for making its cars in Mexico? Or people who buy Glocks? Or Sigs? You "sicknes" at people's behavior is a little misguided.

Besides, the OP is asking about the weapon. NOT the politics, where it was made, what you think of the economy...................I notice NONE of you guys whining about buying a Chinese weapon seem to have any first hand experience with it or any credible information about it.

RugerMcMarlin
May 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
j n wv , I salute your tenacity! even in the face of cool logic and common sense, you never waver. You're shrill responses make me think emotion based reasoning might be more effective. Go read about Chosin resevoir and try to understand that some guys don't shoot chinese guns, out of respect for those who have gone before them.

Barebones ,over simplified economics:

People shoot Chinese guns because they are cheap not superior. They are cheap because, their supply of LABOR is so high they will work for a buck fifty a day. Can't make it any simpler.

Your the one that took the field trip into racism, politics, and economics. You reminding us about the OPs orig question has me rolling in the floor.

Dave McCracken
May 21, 2011, 06:54 PM
Closed, for obvious reasons....

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