Leaning to HKP7, CC


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Quat
May 14, 2011, 05:28 PM
Hello,
I've never really posted before, though I've been listening on the boards for a while, so first I'd like to say thanks. I've been impressed by the attitude and knowledge found here. I couldn't begin to stomach whats found on many other forums with similar focus, was glad to come across this one.

I'm in the market for an autoloader in the compact size range to carry concealed. I'm currently leaning towards an HKP7 M8 for a few reasons, but I have a few questions about them and other options I'm considering. I'm sort of putting my thought process down, so this post may be somewhat long and jumbled.

I shoot 1911s a fair amount, the obvious solution would be something equivalent to an officers model but I don't really want to carry anything that is half or fully cocked. I realize they can be perfectly safe. I have a hang up about doing it for some reason.
Is there a good quality officers model equivilent being made with a non-commanders hammer or how difficult would it be to put one in?

Short of getting over my hang up, I've been considering a Kahr MK/K40, CW or P45, sig p239 or p245 if I could find one and the HKP7. I am leaning towards the P7 over the sigs since its a single trigger type (my understanding is that the DAK sigs are partially cocked), and over the kahrs mostly because of SA trigger vs DA. I currently carry a 3" colt 38 revolver and I don't mind a long pull as long as it is smooth. I would sort of prefer something larger than 9mm, but at the same time, I seem to be comfortable with the 38.

I guess my question comes down to if the P7 might be a good choice or if there are other options that might be better. Cost isn't a huge issue. I'd like something good that is going to last, however. I'm 6'4", 165ish which seems to affect concealment a bit, and it gets very hot in the summer. Comfort while driving is probably a consideration. I don't frequently carry concealed on my person. I'm either at one job, outside away from people and carry openly or the other job where I can't carry on my person or driving, typically.
There isn't really any place I can try any of those I mentioned locally.

If I was to get a P7, I'd have to do it through an online auction, likely. Are there things I should look for in pictures or ask sellers about specifically?

Thank you

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pikid89
May 14, 2011, 05:30 PM
kahrs are precocked, but thats not a huge issue...many "DAO" pistols are in fact pre cocked...the only ones that aren't are the ones you can keep pulling the trigger on, a la "second strike" if you will

if your considering putting an extended hammer on a 1911 to cock it when you draw it, thats prob not a good idea, as loading it will require you to decock it, which on a 1911, probably is not recommended.

if you are worried about carrying comfortable in extreme heat, i would recommend that you look into pocket carry, with a small gun like a Kahr PM9/ CM9, or my choice- an LCP. I would venture that come extreme heat/ summer, you will not consistently carry and all steel gun IWB...as the attire that allows that is not at all congruent with summer heat (coming from a born and raised in florida guy)

xr1200
May 14, 2011, 06:03 PM
I always liked the idea of getting a hk p7 with its fixed barrel its very accurate , until I actually handled one at gander mountain last year. After playing around with it and trying to dry fire it at the counter I decided to pass on it as I couldn't always make the squeeze cocker activate and make the gun fire. I have very large strong hands so it shouldn't have been a problem activate the squeeze cocker.

On this gun it failed to activate about 50% of the time, so I would say before you buy one, at least handle one thoroughly or even better shoot it.

To make sure a squeeze cocking gun is really something you want, overall I would prefer any quality SA/DA auto to a HK P7

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 14, 2011, 06:13 PM
For 1911s, the best way to get over carrying a C&L pistol is to just chamber and holster it, When I got a XD40 to replace my Hi Power, it felt strange holstering it for the first time without putting a safety on.

If you're set on hammer down carry then there is this for a alternative: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml

9mmepiphany
May 14, 2011, 06:35 PM
I've owned a P7 since they first came into the country and have carried it as both a duty gun and as a CCW...the only objection I've ever had was that it was a bit heavy (~33oz), but this is really just a matter of a good belt.

The P7 is just about the safety gun out there without a manual safety. The striker is always blocked until you press the trigger. If you cock it and trip or have it fall out of your hand, the gun de-cocks automatically without ever unblocking the striker. You do have to learn to remember to squeeze the cocker. It takes about 12lbs, as part of your normal grip, to cock and about 4lbs to hold it in the cocked position (think compound bow)...it is easily held by one finger.

I personally prefer the earlier PSP because it is smoother and there are still LE trade-in models available of ~$700-$800. But then the magazine release is on the heel of the frame, I thought the comfort worth the slower release.

There is much to recommend the Kahr CW45...I have the CW9...and the trigger is likely smoother than your .38...unless you've had your Colt tuned by a master...it is very similar in feel to a good S&WK-frame. I'm also a fan of the Springfield EMP...but you'd have to overcome your unease of the cocked-n-locked carry first

usp9
May 14, 2011, 08:09 PM
Are there things I should look for in pictures or ask sellers about specifically?

Ask the same questions you would about any used gun. The P7 is a very robust and solid pistol, not prone to breakage. Round count is good to know for the expected replacement of the recoil spring. The standard finish wears very well, shape edge prone to more wear as on any gun. Getting extra mags with the gun is a bonus, as the mags are a bit pricey.

See if you can get a glimpse at the piston. The rings should be sharp. They may be darkened and have some carbon, but if they are sharp, they are still doing the job.

A P7M8 is likely to run about $1200. A good holster will cost a bit and the P7, being a little heavy will require a good gun belt as well.

If you can tolerate the heel mag release, then the PSP is the current best deal going in the P7 line.

PabloJ
May 14, 2011, 08:53 PM
I would look at the following: Glock, S&W M&P, Springfield XD, and Steyr M. Pick the one that feels most comfortable in palm of your hand seems most user friendly to you. For me it would be new Steyr polymer framed weapon.
I rely on S&W 37-2 DAO five-shot revolver. The second-hand revolver in top shape, new leather Bianchi holster, three Safariland speed-loaders and box of ammo cost $400. The low price is was deciding factor for me. Ok, the story told by WWII partisan who had to rely on P-38 instead of his trusty Nagant revolver before police station raid was what tilted scale in favor of the wheel gun.;)

Guns and more
May 14, 2011, 09:03 PM
Do a Google search of the P-7 and you'll see there were a number of variations.
The PSP was the oldest.
Then the P-7
I'd say there were none marked P-7 PSP, but someone will prove me wrong, but I don't think I am.

The P-7 M8 seems to be the most desired, and the cost reflects that. Holy Smoke $2300!!! (NIB)
It has the more popular mag release, and a heat shield above the trigger.
The P-7 M13 had double stack magazines, and there was a P-7 K10 that was .380.
(don't quote me on that number.)
There was also a "Chantilly" M8, that was made in Chantilly, Va. (?) I think.
Because of the design, the cartridge is pushed right into the chamber, rather than up a feed ramp. People say they are just about jam proof.
The PSP's have the Euro heel mag release and nice ones seen to bring $600-$700.
I'm watching for a nice one too, so I watch Gunbroker, but I won't be buying unless a great deal comes along. They are very popular now, so that's a long shot.
I may have to look at pawn shops so I can see how much wear the trade-in's have.
Also, some importers put really ugly roll marks on the slide.

PabloJ
May 14, 2011, 09:45 PM
Do a Google search of the P-7 and you'll see there were a number of variations.
The PSP was the oldest.
Then the P-7
I'd say there were none marked P-7 PSP, but someone will prove me wrong, but I don't think I am.

The P-7 M8 seems to be the most desired, and the cost reflects that. Holy Smoke $2300!!! (NIB)
It has the more popular mag release, and a heat shield above the trigger.
The P-7 M13 had double stack magazines, and there was a P-7 K10 that was .380.
(don't quote me on that number.)
There was also a "Chantilly" M8, that was made in Chantilly, Va. (?) I think.
Because of the design, the cartridge is pushed right into the chamber, rather than up a feed ramp. People say they are just about jam proof.
The PSP's have the Euro heel mag release and nice ones seen to bring $600-$700.
I'm watching for a nice one too, so I watch Gunbroker, but I won't be buying unless a great deal comes along. They are very popular now, so that's a long shot.
I may have to look at pawn shops so I can see how much wear the trade-in's have.
Also, some importers put really ugly roll marks on the slide.
The ugliest ones chambered for .40S&W are among the most expensive. Those were so scary looking almost nobody bought them making this variant particularly hard to come by today.

orionengnr
May 14, 2011, 09:49 PM
The P7 (in any of it's variants) is a great pistol. IMHO, the best 9mm ever designed and built.

I have owned three or four PSPs, one M13 (my personal favorite) and two M10s.

If you ask me, the PSP is too heavy for an 8-round 9mm, the M10 is too big and too heavy for a 10-round .40, and the M-13 is just about right (okay, maybe a tad bit bit heavy, but the best P7 available to us mere mortals).

I believe the .380 variant was the K3.

All of them are pricey, although the PSP is the least so.

9mmepiphany
May 14, 2011, 10:31 PM
Just to clarify and confusion;

PSP was the original H&K designation for the pistol design

P7 was the production version that was imported...it was part of the German Police trials that gave us the P5 (Walther) and the P6 (Sig)

The P7M8 was a modification of the P7 (often incorrectly, but commonly, referred to as the PSP) for the New Jersey State Police.

The P7M13 was a staggered mag M8 introduced for the US Military Pistol trials

The P7M10 was chambered in .40 and you can easily recognize it by the additional metal in the slide above the bore...they use the same magazine bodies as the M13

The P7K3 was the version that came with three caliber kits (Kalibers 3)...the .22lr, the .32ACP and the .380ACP

The most rare, I've only seen and fired one, was the P7M7 which was chambered in .45ACP and used an oil-filled piston/chamber system

usp9
May 14, 2011, 10:36 PM
There was also a "Chantilly" M8, that was made in Chantilly, Va. (?) I think.

Chantilly, Va. was were HK was located in the U.S., the gun was made in Germany.

I'd say there were none marked P-7 PSP, but someone will prove me wrong, but I don't think I am.

Yes, there are a few hundred marked on the slide PSP. These are pretty much collector guns now.

The P7K3 was indeed the .380 version...I thought there was other sub-calibers also, but don't quote me on that.

The P7K3 was available in .22lr, .32acp as well as .380. A complete set with all barrels and mags is worth a lot of money.

...the P7 (often incorrectly, but commonly, referred to as the PSP)

I'm not sure how one could say that the PSP moniker is incorrect in light of the fact that the gun was adopted as a common police firearm and PSP stands for Police Self-loading Pistol. In one way ALL P7s are PSPs

The most rare, I've only seen one, was the P7M7

Where did you see the mythical M7?

Here's one of many sites that specialize in P7 info;
http://hkp7.com/index.htm

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2011, 01:20 AM
I'm not sure how one could say that the PSP moniker is incorrect in light of the fact that the gun was adopted as a common police firearm and PSP stands for Police Self-loading Pistol. In one way ALL P7s are PSPs
I differentiate between the PSP (original designation) and the P7 as it was designated and adopted following the Germany Police trials...and imported into the USA

Where did you see the mythical M7?

It was during a H&K LE demo day at our department's range. John Satterwhite did a demo with the New (at that time) Benelli shotguns and the MP5k briefcase...as well as giving a shotgun demo with his re-sprung Winchester M12. We each got to try a magazine through the M7...it was about the size of a Glock 21, but with a narrower grip... but they were really pushing the M8 and M13 for LE sales...they were priced at $359 and $378. I was a little ticked as I had paid $400 for my P7

benderx4
May 15, 2011, 02:00 AM
As long as you have good leather, I think the P7 is about as perfect a carry gun as you can get. It's what I carry in a DelFatti IWB.

Thin, compact, slick, accurate, SAFE, and reliable - what's not to love?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3705331320_27c8d9a703.jpg

usp9
May 15, 2011, 08:05 AM
We each got to try a magazine through the M7

I am most jealous. Was the M7 a viable, marketable, comparable pistol, (to '80s competition) in your opinion?

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2011, 01:13 PM
It was hard to tell in just a mag, but my impressions...while faded...are:

1. It balanced better...more weight forward, I think the slide/barrel was longer...not as butt heavy as the M13
2. It wasn't light.
3. The recoil was slower...which could have been part chambering and part recoil system...almost too slow
4. it was very accurate
5. It was almost dripping in oil.

The biggest hurdle that H&K met with the M7 at that time was that it was the Age of the Wundernine and everyone wanted a magazine capacity of 15+ rounds. If it's introduction had been during the 10 round mag capacity period, the market would have been more welcoming.

It was just a case of bad market timing...we'll ignore the rumors of the hydraulic recoil system not being reliable...much like the proposed introduction of the Sig 221 (double stack .45ACP) during the 10 round mag limit period

Quat
May 16, 2011, 12:15 AM
Thanks folks, quite a bit to think about. I may look into the PSP/original style and try harder to dig one up to feel beforehand for balance and cocking issues.

Random question, the magazines for the m8 and heel release models are the same?

9mmepiphany
May 16, 2011, 01:55 AM
No they are not the same. I know they will not lock into the wrong pistol, I don't even think the M8 magazine can be inserted into the PSP...I'm too lazy to go downstairs to try

Kilo Sierra
October 18, 2011, 12:16 AM
Where did you get those grips???

Inquiring mind would like to know.

ks

DenaliPark
October 18, 2011, 12:19 AM
As long as you have good leather, I think the P7 is about as perfect a carry gun as you can get. It's what I carry in a DelFatti IWB.

Thin, compact, slick, accurate, SAFE, and reliable - what's not to love?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2672/3705331320_27c8d9a703.jpg
Not to go off topic, but what kind of grips are those? Is it G10 or carbon fiber?

Loosedhorse
October 18, 2011, 12:51 AM
A P7M8 was my first CCW. I like the P7 family (well, except the P7M10).

Biggest objection as a SD pistol at this point is the fact that the pistol is discontinued, so spare parts will dry up (the oil pistons for the .380 P7K3 are already gone, I believe) and even HK will eventually stop repairing them. They aren't fragile, but they'll eventually break--especially the extractors--like any other gun. You'll practice with it a lot as a SD gun, and that gas piston will wear as well.

Another disadvantage is that the gas chamber below the barrel heats up after a couple of magazines. I usually give it a rest for a few minutes when practicing with it.

Advantages besides the squeeze-cocker (anyone who likes the gun likes the squeeze-cocker) include its accuracy and the ease of disabling the gun by removing the firing pin assembly.

IMTHDUKE
October 18, 2011, 02:10 AM
I would want to know the grade on a P7. .....A....B grade.

Pilot
October 18, 2011, 08:30 AM
Hi. I often carry a P7 PSP (improperly designated, but that's what people call them). It is a German Police surplus gun with the heal mag release which I like a lot. Very secure, and no worries about an accidental mag release. These are the P7's to get right now as they can be had for $600 - $700. As someone else said, they are graded for their internal condition. A "B" grade is fine.

I also have a P7M8 which I bought used many years ago which looked unfired. It is pristine, and I keep it as a range gun. The mag release is American style, and works fine, but I prefer the heal mag release as said previously.

As other have said, the P7 is heavy for its size, but it doesn't bother me when I carry it with a good belt. Some criticize its nine round capacity, but that isn't an issue for me. You will also hear claims of the gun heating up. While this is true it takes about 50 rounds fired fast, and consecutively. That doesn't bother me either.

The P7M8 and P7 PSP magazines are NOT interchangeable, and both are a bit pricey.

benderx4
October 18, 2011, 10:08 AM
Not to go off topic, but what kind of grips are those?

It's a fancy Micarta.

451 Detonics
October 18, 2011, 11:41 AM
I have carried a P7M8 on and off for over 30 years now and it is still a favorite of mine. The advantages include:

Accuracy...it is one of the most accurate carry guns available today.

Reliability...mine has proven itself time and time again. When I took thw NRA handgun instructors course I used my P7M8 and it ran flawlessly despite not being cleaned once during the course.

Proprietary...if someone unfamiliar with the design get hold of it it will buy you some extra seconds as many can not figure out how to make it go bang. Most dump the mag almost immediately thinking it is the safety.

Slim profile...The gun is very slim making concealment a breeze.

Safe...unless the grip cocking is engaged it is impossible to make the gun go off yet is can be made ready to fire in a heartbeat. An added safety feature allows you to easily remove the firing pin assembly making the gun a paperweight.

On the other side of the coin there are drawbacks, expense being the biggest, both the gun itself and the extra magazines are costly. But you are getting your money's worth.

I have been carrying in the same holster for the past 30 years as well, a Ken Null horsehide OWB.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/handguns/p7null-1.jpg

HKGuns
October 18, 2011, 08:37 PM
One of my favorites as well. As stated above, they are excellent, although on the heavy side for EDC, but not as heavy as a 1911......

Extremely accurate and reliable if kept clean. The gas channel can get fouled if you let it go for too long between cleanings (not really an issue for most). I shot my M8 in IDPA and it is by FAR the fastest pistol to get from holster into action.

I own two, they will never be sold and would buy another if the opportunity arises.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/v24/p641199601-4.jpg

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p654121361-4.jpg

Deputy25
October 18, 2011, 10:49 PM
I have two P7 PSP pistols with the heel magazine release. They are both Lower Saxony surplus pistols with the "nds" stamp on the slide. They are both incredibly accurate and quick to get into action. I generally carry a Glock, but may start carrying one of my P7s, as I shoot them better and faster then any other handgun I own.

Jenrick
October 18, 2011, 11:20 PM
If you want a hammer down 1911, Para's LDA. If you want one that is truely DA (eg not pre-cocked) they don't make them, by definition it's not a 1911.

The P7 in all it's varities is a great pistol. Check out:

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=6&page=1

for a ton of info on them.

-Jenrick

gc70
October 18, 2011, 11:50 PM
They aren't fragile, but they'll eventually break--especially the extractors--like any other gun.

:D Extractor breakage is probably not a big worry since a P7 will run without one.

Nakanokalronin
October 19, 2011, 02:44 PM
I would try to handle a P7 before you purchase one. If you like a nice high hold on your handguns, you may get sliced by the slide on a P7. I was thinking about getting a P7 just to have one. My LGS had one in stock and when I held it in my hand, there was no doubt that I would get sliced. Its a nice gun but kinda heavy for a single stack 9mm. The squeeze cocker is a little awkward but people seem to like it. Too odd for me but that's why we have options out there. ;)

Loosedhorse
October 19, 2011, 05:12 PM
Extractor breakage is probably not a big worry since a P7 will run without one.So I am told!

I see the smiley, but I would point out there's a difference between being able to continue a gunfight if the extractor breaks (which I appreciate--try that with a 1911!)...

Versus planning on starting a gunfight with an already broken extractor.

rcmodel
October 19, 2011, 05:18 PM
Plan on spending some decent money on a real good CCW holster designed for the gun.

They are top heavy in a holster, with not much slide inside for support.

rc

Big Dave
October 19, 2011, 06:24 PM
I prefer the P7 to the P7M8 for carry. It's a little slimmer. Sounds like the P7 that xr1200 tried wasn't working properly. Squeezing the cocker should always activate the striker.

BruiseLee
October 20, 2011, 10:29 AM
I've had a P7-M8 since they first came into the country. I used to carry it as my duty weapon.

As others have said, it is a very accurate weapon. It has a fixed barrel, it's made in West Germany, and it's an expensive gun, so it had better be.

It's pretty compact, but because it's all steel, it's also pretty heavy. The 3 dot sights are nice, though they dont glow in the dark. Of course, there is no accessory rail.

Magazine ejection is top notch. Trigger pull is always consistent, unlike my Sig P229 or Beretta 92. A very safe gun, ahead of it's time. The only real bad points are cost, low capacity (unless you go for a P7-M13, which I find to be too big and clunky), and an unusual manual of arms. Which could actually be a good thing if someone ever get a hold of your weapon and tries to use it against you. But, to me it's operation is totally logical and intuitive. I bet my life on it. Hell, Seal Team 6's Richard Marcinko used one, at least in his novels (which he will neither confirm nor deny are true, lol). If it's good enough for a SEAL team leader, it's good enough for me.

dcarch
October 20, 2011, 12:00 PM
They look like excellent guns. I saw a P7M8 at a gun show in Cedar Rapids for $1000, and in handling/dryfiring the gun, I was truly impressed. Everything I've heard about them seems really positive, but I will be the first person to admit that I'm not truly qualified to offer suggestions here, since I've never had the opportunity to shoot one. Take this as you will, but the only thing I would truly worry about, were I in your position, would be a potential lack of spare parts or customer service.

Pilot
October 20, 2011, 12:38 PM
remodel wrote:

Plan on spending some decent money on a real good CCW holster designed for the gun.

They are top heavy in a holster, with not much slide inside for support.


Really? :confused:


I carry my P7 PSP in an Uncle Mike's nylon holster designed for a small auto. Works great. I think it was around $15.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l440/Pilot641/HK%20P7%20PSP/HKP7PSP.jpg

9mmepiphany
October 20, 2011, 05:31 PM
Really? :confused:

I carry my P7 PSP in an Uncle Mike's nylon holster designed for a small auto. Works great. I think it was around $15.

Are you not concerned that the location of the safety/retention strap would be under your master grip?

Wouldn't that mean that you'd have to (1) slow down your attaining a initial grip to disengage the thumb break and push the strap aside or (2) take a loose grip to allow the strap to slide out from under it and then re-grip the gun once you have cleared the holster? Neither technique seems optimal, or especially safety, for a rapid presentation from the holster...resulting in a slow presentation or an incorrect shooting grip

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