First DA shot from Beretta 92fs


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oboe
May 14, 2011, 08:39 PM
At local indoor range today I shot a hundred rounds from a Beretta 92fs 9mm. In the past, Iíve just banged away and congratulated myself on fair to middling results. Not today. This time I want to fire repeated shots from de-cock, double action. It occurred to me maybe late in life (I hope not too late) that the FIRST shot [in DA] is THE MOST important shot - so letís focus on that.

Am I surprised, frustrated, and seriously pissed off? YES, DAMIT!!!! :banghead:

Apparently, from SA Iím not too shabby [well . . . you know, for ME] but from DA - WHOA! Hitting the paper was an event, let alone hitting the target. I guess Iíd been in denial before by firing the first shot DA and the remainder of the mag SA. So the blinders are now GONE.:(

Questions: (1) CAN first shot DA proficiency be seriously improved? Keep in mind that I'm looking at 70 for my next birthday in October(2) If so, HOW? (3) If so, how long would it take the average shooter to see some improvement? I mean, if I canít do better than this, Iíll be moving over to cocked and locked or striker fired. I don't want to become a corpse because I screwed up the first DA shot.:eek:

HELP!!!

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Milkmaster
May 14, 2011, 09:21 PM
Practice makes perfect! Practice practice practice! I will add that proper technique with practice is the only way. Make sure you use the tip of your finger on the trigger instead of the part between the first and second knuckle. That way you won't be pulling the pistol to the right. Make sure the pistol you choose fits your hand properly. I like my 92FS and my hands are big. Some with smaller hands have difficulties with the large size of the 92FS, and that alone causes them problems with DA shooting.

CZ57
May 14, 2011, 09:28 PM
Maybe try something that has a better DA trigger like a Sig. Beretta is known for having a long DA that is heavy but smooth in weight. Sig DAs run about 10 Lbs. like a good DA revolver. Shooting DA with a revolver may also help.

Milkmaster
May 14, 2011, 09:36 PM
I forgot to put the link from our on forum! There is a sticky in this section about DA shooting. Might hep you some ")

http://www.craigcentral.com/fearnot.htm

autospike
May 14, 2011, 10:00 PM
Sure, you can improve it. A good dryfire program (http://www.dryfire-practice.com/) can help quite a bit.

But to be honest, if it were me I'd have to really think about this and do some cost / benefit analysis.

Fishslayer
May 14, 2011, 10:20 PM
Get yourself a .357 Magnum wheelgun. If you can shoot a wheelgun briskly in DA you can shoot anything.;)

Ditto the "practice, practice, practice" for getting that first DA round where it belongs.

Carter
May 14, 2011, 10:40 PM
I used to be pretty bad with DA shots. One day at the range I decided I'd stop cheating and not cock the hammer back while drawing. Low and behold I got a lot better a lot faster. Just had to learn how to move the trigger. During my three gun match today I hit every DA shot. I think I actually shot DA better than the SA because I tried harder on those shots.

Its all about practice and learning your firearm. SO, lots of dryfire.

However, if it proves to be too much of a hassle, nothing wrong with changing to a different weapon for SD/HD.

1SOW
May 14, 2011, 11:43 PM
yes you can improve the DA pull.

The CZ75B has a comparable or maybe worse long heavy DA pull. A lighter hammer spring improves that immensely. You just have to be careful not to go too light or you will get failure to fire the primer. There must be a 92fs forum out there that discusses this very issue.

Practice WILL improve that first DA pull/shot. A lighter pull will make that easier and faster to do.

Just my 2 cents worth.

wally
May 15, 2011, 12:06 AM
That is exactly why I'd given up on DA/SA operation a long time ago. Why make things more difficult than necessary?

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2011, 01:30 AM
(1) CAN first shot DA proficiency be seriously improved? Keep in mind that I'm looking at 70 for my next birthday in October
I would think that at your age, you would have grown up with a revolver...don't tell me you cheated by always cocking that DA revolver too :)

Yes, it is easy. My mentor can shoot DA as quickly and accurately out to 25 yards as he can with a SA 1911...granted he is a USPSA Gandmaster. It is just a matter of knowing how and a little practice. I can only do it out to about 15 yards, at 20 yards I slow down my trigger press a bit...but it is only because I don't believe ;)

(2) If so, HOW?
The link in Milkmaster's earlier post is the same as the one in my signature. As a matter of fact, Ernest Langdon demo'd it in a class I took from him back when he used a Beretta to win the IDPA National Chapionship over a field of 1911s...shooting DA for each shot from the holster.

The basic thing to remember is to press the trigger straight back and not to stop it's rearward motion until the shot goes off. Don't try to make the shot go off, just let it happen. I use this technique to cure the trigger jerk of new shooters who just can't stop themselves from jerking a SA trigger. DA trigger work will make you a better SA shooter also

(3) If so, how long would it take the average shooter to see some improvement?
During a class setting, 12-18 shooters, we usually have them work only on the DA trigger management for a couple of hours on the first day of a 3 day class, they usually have it down by the 2nd day. Every shot out of the holster during the class is DA. We had a student who believe that there was something wrong with his Sig 229 DAK, he said it just wouldn't group. Toward the end of the first day, during a break, he brought it out for me to check by shooting a group. I asked him to try it first and he shot a 3 shot group with all the rounds touching. We just looked at each other and he said, "I guess it is all in technique"

I've taken new shooters...starting with the bullet comes out this end and the cartridges go into the magazine base first...and got the shooting DA shots into 4" at 5-7 yards in ~3-4 hours. This is 1:1 instruction and included sight alignment, drawing form the holster and magazine changes.

It is all about getting correct instruction to begin with and correct practice

SharpsDressedMan
May 15, 2011, 03:16 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I get so tired of people complaining about the inconsistency of a DA/SA auto trigger from DA to SA, like it makes them shoot 20 feet to the left or right. I'm 58, have shot handguns of all types since I was 14, and I don't know what the complaint is anymore. It takes a split second to re-align the sights after ANY shot, be it DA or SA auto, etc. At combat ranges, get a sight picture, do your job as a shooter (firm hold, steady trigger pressure, etc), and shoot the damn gun! If you fairly acquaint yourself with the type of action on your gun, can you really MISS at 3-7 yards? If so, keep practicing, but don't blame the handgun type. A large number of people can shoot a DA/SA auto very well indeed, and if you cannot, then it is not the GUN. Does it really matter if your second shot (SA) from a DA first shot is two inches left, right, up or down? It might even be a hit if your first shot went wild (let's not forget the effects of fear and adrenaline). It doesn't hurt to get a trigger action tuned, and finely tuned guns are a joy to shoot, but a stock gun will still do the job. Cops prove it with stock, issued, DA autos over and over again. Every successful combat kill by our boys with the M9 is proof that the gun works as designed.

oboe
May 15, 2011, 06:56 PM
Just to put this in context, here's what I posted on another web site:


Although I've been a shooter since the age of ten, I've only recently obtained a CCW permit - and with it, a focus on semi-auto hand guns. Will be seventy years old in October.

The purpose of having a gun is carry for personal defense and also for home defense.

Yesterday I practiced with a rented Beretta 92fs. I've shot that model before, firing initial shot DA and then continuing in SA. Yesterday I decided to de-cock and fire five shots at a time in DA. Although SA shots are not bad, DA was HORRID.

The shop guys all concealed carry striker fired, and they are recommending I do the same. Obviously, that takes DA out of the picture. Previously I was afraid to due to lack of any safety. Now, though, there's a full size S&W M&P 9mm with a frame mounted thumb safety.

The Beretta guys tell me to practice and learn to shoot DA so the first shot will be of some use. The striker guys find DA/SA useless and advise I go with that Smith.

Your thoughts will be appreciated. I am only posting to discuss the DA/SA aspect versus striker fired, so any other features of the guns mentioned won't impact on whatever I decide. I'm prepared to carry either one.

john5036
May 15, 2011, 07:48 PM
@Oboe: If the 92FS and that first DA shot is not something you are confident with, then yeah it's totally useless for you.

You'll need to gauge for yourself whether or not defensively that DA is an important factor in your decision when it comes to whether or not you can handle it under stress. Practice, and some more practice diminishes the DA as a variable in that scenario.

You also have to consider that the 92's DA is heavier than a striker fired DA. So the striker platform might be a very happy medium for you, or not. Did you get a chance to shoot the S&W MP9? Or a Glock?

It seems as though you really like the SA aspect... I'd say go for a 1911. You have a frame mounted safety, SA all the way, and available in 9mm if you wish to keep with that caliber.

9mmepiphany
May 15, 2011, 08:57 PM
The Beretta guys tell me to practice and learn to shoot DA so the first shot will be of some use. The striker guys find DA/SA useless and advise I go with that Smith.

I find it interesting how cyclic the popularity of trigger systems seem to be. During my LE career, we started with DA/SA revolvers and they ruled LE circles. When the DA/SA semi-autos were becoming popular, the SAO (1911 & P35) crowd claims and taught that the DA first shot was unmanageable the first shot should be thrown away.

This was mostly disproven as folks learned how to correctly shoot the DA/SA. But then there was the call for a constant DA trigger...like the old revolvers...which brought about the DAO, DAK and LEM triggers. Striker fired pistols came on the market and successful marketing (by Glock) convinced the ATF folks that it should be classified as a DAO pistol which qualified it for many LEA contracts.

In essence the striker fired service sized pistols are SA triggers with long travels...which when tuned properly hardly travel at all. There are exceptions of course such as versions of the Walther P99

Shipwreck
May 15, 2011, 09:10 PM
Get a "D" Spring. I have one installed in all 8 of my 92's. It is a factory part. It is about $6, and lowers the weight of the trigger. Itw as originally used in the DAO variants of the 92FS.

It brings the DA pull down from over 11 lbs, to about 8.5 pounds. The SA pull is brought down about a pound.

I practice a lot with the DA pull on my daily carry 92. Its easy with the spring in it. I also practice a lot of 1 handed shooting as well.

I have a trigger guage.

A 90-Two Beretta I used to have... Unmodified, the average pull was 11lb 7.0oz in DA, and 5lb 4.0oz in SA.

My Carry 92FS - with 3000 rounds thru it when I measured it (and a D spring for all 3k rounds) - Average was 8lb 3.5oz in DA and 4lb 10.4oz in SA

highlander 5
May 15, 2011, 09:42 PM
I have 2 Beretta 92s and replaced the factory main springs with Wolff 18 lb springs and it made a big difference in the DA/SA pull and it an easy fix. There are videos on YouTube on how to change the springs.

cslinger
May 15, 2011, 09:48 PM
What's funny is I have traditionally shot double action guns (DAO/DASA/DA revolvers) and in doing so always shot the first shot decocked in double action mode. With revolvers I rarely shoot single action.

So because I am so used to a long heavy DA pull I actually have difficulty shooting guns like the 1911 with a SAO pull.

The moral of the story is, its just about practice and what you practice with.

Chris

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 15, 2011, 09:50 PM
Dry fire helps alot, just aim with your UNLOADED gun and pick a target. While aiming at that target pull it at double action as fast as you can while keeping those sights aligned. Eventually you'll be able to hit accuratly with that first shot.

The shop guys all concealed carry striker fired, and they are recommending I do the same. Obviously, that takes DA out of the picture. Previously I was afraid to due to lack of any safety. Now, though, there's a full size S&W M&P 9mm with a frame mounted thumb safety.

I went from a Hi Power to a Springfield Armory XD40 and the first time I holstered it chambered it felt strange because I didn't flip a safety on or anything. I got over it fast and now its chambered whenever its holstered. All it takes to get over the lack of a exteneral safety is to chamber and holster.

InkEd
May 15, 2011, 10:04 PM
You picked a gun with IMHO one of the worst DA trigger pulls available. Good luck.

Shipwreck
May 15, 2011, 10:06 PM
You picked a gun with IMHO one of the worst DA trigger pulls available. Good luck.

Not with a "D" spring. It really rocks.

CZ57
May 15, 2011, 10:08 PM
Not with a "D" spring. It really rocks.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that quick fix.;)

cslinger
May 15, 2011, 10:38 PM
Apparently you have never shot my SIG P225, Walther P5 or dare I even bring up the HK VP70 which has a trigger pull similar, although much heavier, then a cheap heavy duty staple gun. :D

The double actions on those guns are definitely worse then the Beretta.

IdahoLT1
May 16, 2011, 12:06 AM
I used the D spring on both my berettas. I recommend them to any beretta owner.

Skylerbone
May 16, 2011, 12:43 AM
Practice only makes permanent. Depending on your timeline for actually carrying the M&P may be a viable option but it's stock trigger pull is anything but joyous. I'd describe it as heavy and gritty. It is an easy fix if you're so inclined but plenty of people don't care to "fix" new pistols or pay for someone else to. The same applies to learning a new trigger system. It can be done with proper instruction but you may find the K.I.S.S. principle fits your situation best.

Pick a pistol you shoot well with and stay frosty. If you've made it to 70 you're likely already doing what you're supposed to in keeping out of harm's way. Also nothing wrong with a can of Mace in the meantime.

If you decide on a striker fired DAO, I'd look at the Springfield XD or Ruger SR9 as both have considerably nicer triggers out of the box than the Smith. I love my S&Ws for reliability but they don't come from the factory the way I want them.

Tedzilla
May 16, 2011, 01:23 AM
The answer to the DA first shot problem is the H&K P7 series. It's way easier to learn a different mag release than to perfect two different trigger techniques. From what you said in your post you might not need a second mag if your first shot is single action...

Mike J
May 16, 2011, 09:36 AM
My only DA/SA is an old Ruger P series. I also own & usually carry an XD. I believe either system can serve you well. It did take me more time to learn the trigger on my Ruger. My only experience with a Beretta 92 was about 5 shots at a range. I thought it was really nice.

If you don't like the idea of a striker fired gun without a safety you might want to look into a Ruger SR9 or SR9c as they have an external safety. It is really up to you. We each have to figure out what works best for us.

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