What's with the Angry?


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Nushif
May 17, 2011, 11:57 AM
So, just recently I was reading a thread and instead of hi-jacking it ... I guess I'll make a new one.

In it someone said that one would receive a nice and warm welcome in a gun shop, which kind of is our first line of entry as a community, unless very specifically one "giggled at AR16s and said they saw that gun in a video-game."

Now, I'm wondering why exactly there's this instant red-flag-make-me-angry reaction when we see this. Granted I cringe a bit, too, but mainly because I know what will happen next.

I just fail to see the point when you can walk around a big gun show and find three "this gun killed ten NAZIs" signs ... where's the difference?!
Some young kid walks into a gun store and potentially can become a new gun owner and avid shooter when the friendly guy behind the counter hands them an M16 (screw you, I *have* shot M16s before) and says "Check this out, a lot different in real life, huh?"
I can guarantee you though, the kid isn't gonna become a new gun owner and aficionado if he gets a reply like "We don't deal with that here. Please leave." And then the employee promptly turns around and talks to his buddy about the new russian shotguns even SpecialOps uses.

What's so inherently wrong with wanting guns that one has seen before and doing two things:
a) Investigating the realities of them, which is what said young kid is doing and
b) Having some fun with said guns.

Some very serious shooters, at the local competitions still brag about how they dinged their finger when trying to dual wield Desert Eagles. How is that so different from saying "I've always wanted to shoot a .50 cal since playing <some military shooter>." and "Is that the gun you get in <some military shooter>?"

Can someone explain to me this random phenomenon?

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grubbylabs
May 17, 2011, 12:20 PM
People forget that they were once new as well. And those that were born into it must be better than those who had to learn on their own.

Live2offroad
May 17, 2011, 12:28 PM
It's a case of the "inside vs. outside" mentality.. Those that are "in the club" need to feel special, so they make those on the outside feel stupid. This is narrow minded of course, but it's just a part of human nature. Everyone, even rugged individualist, seek to be in the "in group"..

Nushif
May 17, 2011, 12:44 PM
That would explain this if *all* new shooters receive this kind of treatment.

But it seems a very specific focus on the videogame issue. I don't see someone who walks into a store asking to see a "big bore gun" because they read a safari book getting the same treatment.

Sam1911
May 17, 2011, 12:47 PM
I wrote something to this effect in a recent thread on the grumpy old fellows you see at some gun show tables, and it applies in gun shops as well:

Now, if the appliance store treated their refrigerators and high-end ranges that way, we'd all applaud as they went right out of business. But gun shops have a certain odd hold on us. We almost expect a real gun dealer to be a crusty old jerk who is extremely annoyed to be bothered with our inquiries. Pat McManus' character Henry P. Grogan fondly immortalizes the type. Becoming a customer -- bearding the lion in its den, so to speak -- is (or was) a distinct rite of passage for most of us.

The odd thing is that gun sales are through the roof, even in a bad economy. Someone is selling them. Maybe hundreds of thousands of new buyers are learning to appreciate the hazing ritual of buying a gun from the traditional old coot. Or, perhaps, there's a certain class of dealer that is learning to say, "yes ma'am, no sir, and I'll be VERY glad to help with that!"

As W.C. Fields once said, "Ahhh, the good old days. I hope they never come again."

To add a bit to that, the sweaty-handed junior who went weak at the knees to hold a Model 70 just like his hero Jack O'Conner uses, back in 1950, or to see a REAL pair of Colt SAA's just like Tom Mix used to shoot the guns out of the hands of the men in black hats -- is now the pudgy video-game geek who's dangerously close to spilling his Dr. Pepper on that FN SCAR-17 ... just like his digital hero uses to defeat the terrorists in the game of the moment. Some things really don't change.

For whatever reason panting, star-struck over-enthusiasm in any discipline (especially those involving heavy risks or responsibilities) tends to annoy the more savvy and experienced members of whatever community. Old hands look down on newbies throughout the world for legitimate reasons (safety concerns, especially) and unfortunate ones (elitism, self-promotion). The really noteworthy old hands -- those who are really memorable and who make a difference for their sport, profession, or pastime -- are those who stifle their impatience and plant a little of themselves in the next generation as a seed to help them grow in the right direction. Like all good people, those folks are memorable for being so rare.

Cosmoline
May 17, 2011, 12:52 PM
Nothing wrong with getting inspiration from entertainment. I recently got a crowbar just like Gordon Freeman uses.

Sam1911
May 17, 2011, 12:56 PM
I recently got a crowbar just like Gordon Freeman uses.
Now that's awesome. :)

Carl N. Brown
May 17, 2011, 12:57 PM
Gee, I got me a Mattel Thunderburp because Peter Graves used a Thompson to battle nuclear mutant grasshoppers in "The Beginning of the End" (1957). It might be easy to dump on videogamers (especially when they edit gun articles on Wikipedia) but I remember being a nine year old movie and gun buff. Luckily I was tolerated by my elders back in the day, and hope I will remember that encountering a noobie.

northark147
May 17, 2011, 12:57 PM
As A kid I was taught, or at least allowed access to firearms to teach myself to be a very proficient marksman. I was even taught how to reload. However past knowing the difference between a shotgun, pistol, rifle, etc etc, I still never was taught squat about many details. Even cleaning as far as I knew was take your Hoppes universal kit, cram some patches and maybe that brushy thingy down the bore, and wipe the living bejesus out of the thing with rem oil. At least that's how I cleaned my 22, my step dad took care of everything else, probably to include re cleaning my 22 correctly. Then there was the divorce so I didnt see much more than a 22 for the three years except when I'd go borrow a rifle for deer hunting from my dad during the season. Then at 17 I joined the service and still didn't learn much of anything for a long time. I had my first ex wife who was pretty close to anti gun, then finally my inner beast got out of its shell. It took me a long time before I was comfortable even going in a gun shop for fear I'd say or ask something stupid. I went to ones out of town in places I didn't figure I'd ever go again. I guess in some respects I was lucky and the ones I went too were friendly enough because I did ask dumb questions and say stupid things, and I learned. Now I am the local gun nut that even the Gun shops call for an opinion sometimes. I'm not sure it would've turned out as such had those gun shops in another town been rude and made a point of confirming to myself that I really was as stupid as I already felt.

Cosmoline
May 17, 2011, 12:59 PM
Now that's awesome

;-) It's for killing the anomalous material that builds up all around my driveway during the six month winter and laughs at shovels.

tyeo098
May 17, 2011, 02:23 PM
When I went to my first gun show, I was drooling more over the Mosin's than the AR15's (this is mostly because of my love affair with CoD World at War, Nagants were my favourite in the game) and I practically crapped myself when I learned the were only 100 bucks, 9ft bayonet and all.

And the guy I bought it from WAS an old coot, but I never led him on that I was buying it based on my interest in a vidja game.

Remo223
May 17, 2011, 02:35 PM
"Can someone explain to me this random phenomenon?"

Yeah I can. Its ignorance plain and simple. You know how those guys that don't know that much about cars are the most critical of women when a woman asks a "noob" question about a car?

Same thing with guns.

RimfireChris
May 17, 2011, 02:50 PM
It's a teachable moment, some make 'em, some break 'em.

hermannr
May 17, 2011, 03:10 PM
When I was 12 my dad asked me if I wanted a rifle for my birthday present....heck yes, well I was really disapointed when I found out it was a "boys" single shot .22. But you know, you have to start somewhere, and dad said when you show you can handle this rifle safely, and take care of it properly, well talk about that Marlin repeater you want.

Oh, BTW: you will like this .22, because you now have to earn money to purchase your own ammo and a repeater eats a lot more ammo than a ss.

FIVETWOSEVEN
May 17, 2011, 03:11 PM
I've seen this once at KTP. Two kids that were just fooling around because they were guns, taking pictures with Benelli M4s, pretend firing them and then after awhile of playing with the shotguns they went over to the pistols and of course asked to see some 10in Smith and Wesson that was a magnum of some sort (didn't ask, didn't care). Granted some people are uninformed and are interested in guns because of video games while others just want to fool around with guns in a gun shop.

In another thread, another Highroader helpped a misguided youth at KTP aswell who was originally looking for a "Zombie gun" and he took the advice wisely.

FullEffect1911
May 17, 2011, 03:36 PM
Becoming a shooting enthusiast isn't the easiest thing to do if you don't have someone with experience to show you the ropes.

Imagine how intimidating it would be to walk into a gun store or onto a public range with no practical knowledge of firearm safety and technique. Now couple that lack of knowledge with the drivel that video games and movies gives us and you have a lot of misguided and uninformed people who seem to be awkward at best and dangerous at worst.

It is now up to the firearms community to show those who are misguided/misinformed how to become safe and proficient. It is only after someone shows they have no interest in learning proper anything that they should be "shunned" if for no other reason then only those willing to be helped should have the time taken to be helped.

Perhaps it's a fear of helping a stranger, elitism or a jaded sense that the "youth" is beyond help that promotes that angry reaction. It is also perhaps that some people are just obnoxious (or at least come across as such) and tends to garner a negative reaction.

Since I have access to a shooting range on my parents land, I will go out of my way to try and help new shooters who are interested in learning. Hell, I even met my girlfriend this way. :D But I admit there are some people I would never invite to shoot with me because I felt they were not mature enough to take my advice or listen to safety or just didn't have the appropriate level of interest.

Everyone has to make a judgement call with their decisions and reactions.

It's actually a bit funny in a way because I would like to get into IDPA but I am concerned about that "angry" reaction to me being a noob in competition shooting. I am almost certain that everything I've heard about it is that if you are safe they will be welcoming, but seeing as I'm only in my late 20's I will probably be looked at as a "kid".

8654Maine
May 17, 2011, 03:43 PM
I think Sam & others have hit this.

It's like a doc or surgeon hearing the same questions over and over.

It's a rare bird who has the knowledge and the compassion to impart it.

I do remember I was a newb at one point. Heck, after all this time I still am a newb.

Sam1911
May 17, 2011, 03:46 PM
It's actually a bit funny in a way because I would like to get into IDPA but I am concerned about that "angry" reaction to me being a noob in competition shooting. I am almost certain that everything I've heard about it is that if you are safe they will be welcoming, but seeing as I'm only in my late 20's I will probably be looked at as a "kid". I'd encourage you to jump right in despite those concerns, but if you can ever make it down to the center part of the state for a day trip some 1st Sunday of the month, I can promise you a warm reception at one of my matches. (And probably a chance to meet a handful of other High Roaders as well.)

trav
May 17, 2011, 04:02 PM
Brand new to the handgun school, and an overall noob to guns. I own a few, and have shot (mostly 22s and shotguns) and recently picked up a 686 S&W 4". When I went to my local gun shop (expressly went to this location because I want to support local efforts over chain stores) I asked a few questions about revolvers, pistols, brands, etc. The clerk couldnt have been more bothered to help me. It was like I was bothering him. I was already a bit uncomfortable (being a man, and having to ask another man for advice on the manly art of firearms) and made even more so by the less than helpful staff. I finally picked up my 686 last week at the shop, and it was one of the owners that checked me out. He was pretty polite, and helpful... however, his staff lost him a customer. I have every intention of purchasing more firearms over the next couple of years, and it will be a cold day in hell before I go back to that location. I loathe the box stores, but I will now be going to them, to spend my buck on fishing gear/guns/ammo/etc.

harrygunner
May 17, 2011, 04:13 PM
Sometimes entry points to guns are down right hostile.

I watched a black man be ignored waiting to buy ammo at a gun show. That seller would simply look past him as the man gestured for attention. Finally, the black guy got the attention of another person at that booth. That guy handed him a 500 round can of reloaded ammo and charged him the price for new. I saw looks passed between the two sales guys. Fortunately, the black guy noticed and demanded what he paid for.

rodensouth
May 17, 2011, 07:58 PM
This is one of the reasons those "Big Box Stores" stay in business and Gander can charge what they do. People will more likely try something, or part with their money if they can possibly skip the condescension.

I was once in a record store and asked a question receiving rolled eyes and a look to the other guy behind the counter. I said, "Get the manager boy". You should have seen his smirk change as I had the owner pull my account information, and informed him that total would never climb any higher due to that interaction.

As a business owner, I can tell you that I love feedback so that I can correct my problems. Unfortunately, in gun shops it's often the owner leading that culture of condescension.

buck460XVR
May 17, 2011, 08:07 PM
That would explain this if *all* new shooters receive this kind of treatment.

But it seems a very specific focus on the videogame issue. I don't see someone who walks into a store asking to see a "big bore gun" because they read a safari book getting the same treatment.


I think it boils down to those same folks haven't a clue about the complexity of the video games nowadays. They think of First Person shooter video games as the plastic rifle and the blurry graphics of the old "duck shoot" games that were once popular in bars. They don't realize that the high end games nowadays are so realistic they could be used for firearm training. Not only are the graphics realistic, but so are the guns and the way they shoot. Most games are also quite historically correct when it comes to the firearms of the era or theater of war the game is duplicating. Matter of fact, most gamers could tell you what guns were used by what military during what war, allies or foe, where-as most of these smart-aleck gun shop regulars MAY be able to tell you what America used in the last two wars.

I was lucky growing up. I was embraced when I was introduced to firearms. My mentors took my ignorance in stride and were patient when I got overwhelmed or awestruck. They informed me when I made mistakes and praised me when I did good. Ridicule was not in their MO. I was foolish and wide eyed then too, not so much different than new shooters today. I only hope that I pass on even a small part of what my mentors showed me.

crm7290
May 17, 2011, 09:00 PM
Harrygunner thats just plain racist of those people. Thats not ok anywhere. Its people like them who give gun owners a bad name. They truly are the redneck racist gun toting idiots that is the stereotype.

Reason I wanted a gun, besides that I shot them and got addicted was Call of Duty. Been playing that since the original Xbox. I'm not fooling around in gun stores, I would doubt if they even know I came in. I don't ask to look at things or ask questions because I know they will not give me the time of day. When I go in I know what I am talking about and what I want and its get in get out. Gun shop owners around here all about hunting which isn't my thing and the shop I go specializes in hunting.

Ignition Override
May 17, 2011, 09:22 PM
After my wife and I took an excellent guided tour of the "Band of Brothers' " fox holes (some were F Company fox holes) and other battle sites around Bastogne Belgium two years ago, this suddenly inspired me to own an M-1 Garand.
I had never used an M-1, but the guide's friendship with some of the veterans and exact, detailed descriptions of their experiences created a "spark".
On the other hand, if somebody else plays a video game and is motivated by that, why does it matter?

It's hard to imagine that people would sneer at a potential buyer (whether young or a 55 year old novice:o) who could have the cash or credit card to buy a gun, but if they do talk down to the novice from an "ivory tower", the patient buyer can find another seller for widely available guns, and should. These buyers might actually be willing to learn a bit, from a patient seller.

A guy about a year ago at a Memphis show with some Garands laid some vague and intentionally (insultingly) convoluted Garand 'bs' on me which, in contrast, made Bill Clinton's nebulous political comments appear to be as clear and objective as a military briefing.
Those types, who think that they are experts and so astute, don't realize that many of us won't even consider buying a rifle sling from them-never mind a gun.

As for the cruder or crustier types of people, no shop or gun show seller needs any wealth to have a bit of "class".
A lyric at the end of a Pink Floyd song: "Good manners don't cost nothing".

Heretic
May 18, 2011, 12:00 AM
I had a kid I know go on and on about how he could hit a target at 1000 yards. I was curious, so I invited him to go shooting. He couldn't hit beer cans at 50 yards. After hearing that my Win 70 was junk, he dropped the comment that it was easier on his game. He had never touched a gun in his life, but felt he was a sniper, and had nothing to learn. I feel video games ruin any chance of becoming proficent with a firearm the same way Qbasic ruined a generation of computer programers.

Nushif
May 18, 2011, 12:03 AM
I had a kid I know go on and on about how he could hit a target at 1000 yards. I was curious, so I invited him to go shooting. He couldn't hit beer cans at 50 yards. After hearing that my Win 70 was junk, he dropped the comment that it was easier on his game. He had never touched a gun in his life, but felt he was a sniper, and had nothing to learn. I feel video games ruin any chance of becoming proficent with a firearm the same way Qbasic ruined a generation of computer programers.

Sounds less like a videogame problem and more like an arrogant kid problem. Or are we going to start blaming electronic data for people's conduct now?

aprosody
May 18, 2011, 07:03 AM
I would be considered fairly young by most of the old-timers, and I have noticed that there is an elitist mentality within the gun crowd. I personally notice it more with the middle aged generation, not so much with the "old salty" generation. I don't know if it has to do with that extra bit of appreciative wisdom that seems to tick around when people get older or what.

For example: My LGS has a counter guy that is in his early to mid thirties and he was a straight up jerk the first few times I went in there looking around, asking questions about the AR platform as I had no experience with it at the time. On the other hand, the Vietnam-Vet turned gunsmith was extremely friendly and willing to show me the ropes with the platform. I now go up there just to listen to him tell me stories, or show me random gun mechanisms and explain/quiz me on them. He has taken the opportunity to pass knowledge onto another generation without prejudice. The younger guy has finally warmed up to me too.

Oh yea, I learned most of my early knowledge from video games. I don't think I am a sniper either.

HGUNHNTR
May 18, 2011, 07:13 AM
It is just ego and machismo. "You poor pathetic newbie, it will take you years to accumulate the vast stores of nuanced firearms knowleged I have acquired at your poor pathetic rate, that is....if you even discover that you are in a cloud of ignorance and need to see the very light I had seen so many years ago".

Shadow 7D
May 18, 2011, 07:22 AM
Guess I was lucky in some ways
My mom took me shooting as a kid, well actually as a teenager, and it was the police supply store, the owner took some time to teach me the basics and safety. I was safe enough, I admit to not knowing much about what I was doing, but I was happy with it, and he was happy for the money.

Then I joined the service, first gun show I went to, I had no clue, and other than the guy trying to sell accessories and the one selling jerky, no body talked to me, I literally walked around the place twice and left.

Now I come into the shop and they at least recognize me, I don't buy much but I do ask questions, and some times they aren't the smartest. But, hey that's life.

Lex Luthier
May 18, 2011, 07:47 AM
It has never been about the angry.

People are egotistical in every possible way, until and unless they have a humbling experience that makes them completely and utterly aware that they are not the center of the universe. It is safer for most people to hang on to old ideas, sometimes letting them become concrete and inflexible, without realizing that they just might have a little more to learn about the other humans they have to deal with.

Direct communication with hard people is the best way. A slower, logical approach with obviously intentional neophytes might be a good idea, instead of being an overly technical know it all. We were all new once at something, and there was probably a concerned, caring person who stepped up and helped us.

The simple fact is that people are all pretty fragile, and some of us have excelled at certain skills and techniques to get through this world, and just because we may know better, or more than the next guy doesn't mean we need to defend some figural, egotistical piece of ground.

Help a new guy. Be a role model, not a jerk. At the same time, remember to be vigilant and sharp for moments when the egos in the room are about to throw punches. I had to remind a gangbanger at the range on Monday to not stand so close behind everybody so he could "check it all out". He had a big gun. I had a fatherly tone used direct verbiage. He complied. It works if you work it.

FullEffect1911
May 18, 2011, 01:22 PM
I'd encourage you to jump right in despite those concerns, but if you can ever make it down to the center part of the state for a day trip some 1st Sunday of the month, I can promise you a warm reception at one of my matches. (And probably a chance to meet a handful of other High Roaders as well.)

I might take you up on the offer at some point. I was thinking about getting into it reasonably soon, once I research more of the rules and get at least some practice at my range shooting IDPA targets. Where about are you located?


As for the cruder or crustier types of people, no shop or gun show seller needs any wealth to have a bit of "class".
A lyric at the end of a Pink Floyd song: "Good manners don't cost nothing".

This is a good point, I think we should take a step back as well and look at it this way as well. Some people are just jerks and some are great, every profession and hobby has its share of both.

Sam1911
May 18, 2011, 01:25 PM
I might take you up on the offer at some point. I was thinking about getting into it reasonably soon, once I research more of the rules and get at least some practice at my range shooting IDPA targets. Where about are you located?

Just south of Harrisburg, off of 83. Check the link in my sig.

Heretic
May 19, 2011, 11:29 AM
Thats what I like about THR. I've run into this "elitist mentality" on other forums.

Cop Bob
May 19, 2011, 01:00 PM
Quote:
I had a kid I know go on and on about how he could hit a target at 1000 yards. I was curious, so I invited him to go shooting. He couldn't hit beer cans at 50 yards. After hearing that my Win 70 was junk, he dropped the comment that it was easier on his game. He had never touched a gun in his life, but felt he was a sniper, and had nothing to learn. I feel video games ruin any chance of becoming proficent with a firearm the same way Qbasic ruined a generation of computer programers.

Sounds less like a videogame problem and more like an arrogant kid problem. Or are we going to start blaming electronic data for people's conduct now?
You run into this "Elitist" attitude all the time, along with "I work in a gun store, and you don't, therefore I know more than you" attitude all the time..

I was lucky enough to have had a Father that was a competitive shooter, he was pretty darn sharp when it came to pistols and revolvers. I went with him to matches and weekly team practice from a very early age.. Some of those old guys took me under their wing because it's true, being polite doesn't cost nutthin, but it payed me in spades.. The guys at the Police range took me under their wing and taught me ALOT... how to shoot, really just building on the basics that Dad taught, and adapting it to their style of shooting, ( I kind of thought the 2600 Bullseye competition a little too stiff and disciplined, where the PPC and IPSIC was more "real world" in my mind )

I spent a lot of time at the range, soaking up knowledge like a sponge. My case was rare, today, even harder to do.. In my day there were no video games, but a lot of TV..

When it finally came the day for me to start applying my knowledge as an instructor, and coach, I found, almost universally, that Women were easier to teach.. Why? I can only offer that they did not spend all their time playing Cowboys and Indians, imitating the Lone Ranger or TV and Movie moves that they had done all their Action adolescent lives in the neighborhood lots.. I spent more time breaking bad habits from that, and poor or improper initial instructions than anything.. Women that had never touched a gun, didn't have any bad habits to break... they came in with no preconceived notions.

Today's youth are at a disadvantage, Bad people portrayed as heroes, every thing in the movies, games, and other electronic media are not properly used, displayed or portrayed, everything as been edited or portrayed with "Artistic License"

Old codgers (such as myself) have little use or time for the tattooed knot head with his pants down around is butt and his cap on sideways, who wants a Glock so he can "buss a cap in" what ever, or these so called movie, internet, and video experts... as described earlier...

With the advent of "box Stores" such as Walmart, Best Buy, Auto Zone, Home Depot, you can't find ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about the products that they are selling.

Example, go into a Big corperate owned lumber yard, with a set of plans, and see if there is anyone there that can read them and put together a material list... not gonna happen... Try a chain auto parts store.. I have gone in WITH THE PART NUMBERS... and they still want to know "What does it fit?"... Try in my hand...

When I went to high school, we had a rifle range on campus, a full machine shop... a full wood shop, with lathes, table and chop saws.... When I was a teenager I was drilling and tapping scope mounts, cutting dovetails and doing trigger jobs on Smiths, squaring bolts.. why, because I learned the basic skills in school... Now, it is illegal to let anyone under the age of 18 run those types of machine tools...

We are dumming ourselves down to the point of helplessness... In the 40's when this country had it's back against the wall, we had the resources and the mindset to build our way out of it.. America went into WWII in the Great Depression, we came out of it the greatest industrial nation the world has ever know...

I forget who stated it but a quote that seems to fit here is... "If you want to defeat a nation, you reduce its ability to make war"... Unfortunately, lately we have built a Society that is more geared towards service (read: "You want fries with that?") rather than the attitude of "Whaddya mean that can't be done? I got a mill and a lathe, I can build anything you want!

This video sniper is a by-product of that.. (I'll get off my soapbox now...)

Nashanthra
May 19, 2011, 01:14 PM
Sam, I think the link you your sig is broke.

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Grey_Mana
May 19, 2011, 01:15 PM
Being a gun owner doesn't make people special. Guns are just tools. Guns don't magically make anyone better, smarter, patient, or brave.

Someone may happen to be on the right side of a social issue, but that doesn't automatically mean they have other virtues.

Now, an irrational fear and hatred of a tool (such as hoplophobia) will tend to correlate with ignorance, gullibility, and superstitious behavior.

Sam1911
May 19, 2011, 01:20 PM
Sam, I think the link you your sig is broke.

Ugh. I had an inkling about that... try it now.

Or here: http://www.sightspracticalshooter.com/

Gord
May 19, 2011, 02:29 PM
I'm in my early 20s and have had the benefit of both growing up playing videogames and being fortunate enough to handle and shoot a wide variety of guns. In my mind, I'm still just a beginner - and, really, I am. That, I think, is crucial to the reception you're going to get from older and wiser folks (and potential mentors).

Having someone make a snap decision, solely on the basis that you own a PS3 and Black Ops, that you're a simpering imbecile unworthy of fraternization is one thing; but all too often, we bring it on ourselves. Hear me, 18-to-25-year-old demographic! Hear me, and heed my words!

1) You're a n00b; be honest and admit it to yourself, and, more importantly, to others. I started on my road to gun nuttery, at twelve years old or so, asking someone in an AOL chatroom what the "ACP" in .45ACP meant - and that guy was happy to explain it to me. One of the lessons you're going to learn (and it applies to life in general) is that you don't have to pretend to expertise in all things to make friends or influence people. Which brings us to our next item:

2) Be honest about influencing people. If your experience with firearms in the real world is limited or nonexistent, you need to say so up front before contributing to a discussion. Things like trigger feel, weapon balance and perceived recoil are big deals to a lot of people, and none of it translates over from videogames. By matter-of-factly saying that "I'd go with an M4, it's way more accurate than the G36," you are essentially becoming that 13-year-old kid who lurks on every car forum and declares that the Ferrari 458 is da best car period - except you're most likely in your late teens or early 20s (in highly technical terms, "too old for that BS") and you're probably fudging the decision-making process for someone who can actually afford to seriously consider buying whatever whoopty-doo gun they're soliciting opinions on, versus the guys on the sports-car forums who might have bought a beat-up '73 Porsche 914 off Craigslist for two Gs or spent two days at Racing Skool in Vegas driving a Corvette in a circle. By the way:

3) Please learn to use the proper terminology. One of the biggest things you can do to show other firearms enthusiasts that you're serious about the hobby is to extricate your love of guns from your love of FPS games and start developing the former interest in a real-life setting. Telling people that you've shot the M9 will probably get you written off, because if you actually had (or if you'd actually cared about it) you'd know that what you shot was a Beretta 92FS. Likewise, there is no M4 for civilians; you might have shot an "M4gery," but most of us just call 'em AR-15s. "I've shot the .50 cal" is meaningless; there are a lot of different .50s out there - which one did you shoot exactly? And on and on; you get the idea.

I could continue to codify Things Not to Do in list form, but the simple basic idea is this - don't act like a know-it-all (speak less, listen more) and don't discuss real-world firearms usage like you're talking to your MW2 buddies on Steam (use proper terminology and keep your scenarios realistic).

I think I can safely speak for most all of us here at THR when I say that we're more than happy to welcome newcomers to the fold and help them out with whatever questions they have; but there is a general maturity rating that comes into play, and acting like a Net Ninja or making it obvious that you're only looking for knowledgeable responses so you can copy-paste them to your clan's forum and make them think you're a Real Life Operator is going to make people think that you wear a Pokemon backpack to school, and they are going to divest themselves of your presence in their consciousness.

Heretic
May 19, 2011, 03:30 PM
(speak less, listen more) Wise words!

henschman
May 19, 2011, 05:41 PM
You have to realize that the majority of "gun guys" were not country kids who grew up with a rifle in their hand from an early age. If our hobby is going to grow, we need to attract the kind of people who have no experience with guns, but who are interested for whatever reason. For those type of people, there is something that had to get them interested in it in the first place, and in this day and age, more often than not, that will be video games.

I was probably part of the first generation of gun guys who got interested in it because of video games. Well, I'd say a combination of video games and Tom Clancy type books. I started reading those type of books (military thrillers and such) when I was 11, and of course they are full of details on guns and stuff. Then Goldeneye 007 for the Nintendo 64 came out in 1997 when I was 12 or so, and I played that every day for about 2 years. That game used fake names for a lot of real guns, and I remember looking them up in gun books to figure out what the real ones are. Next it was Rainbow 6 on the computer, which was actually a very realistic game. I bought a lot of gun books and learned quite a bit about them before I ever owned one. I may not have known what it was like to shoot anything other than a BB gun or a .22, but I knew quite a bit about all the major military firearms from the past century -- what they look like, who makes them, what caliber they are, etc.

I finally talked my mom into buying me a real rifle when I was 15. The local gun shop guys were actually pretty helpful, and helped me pick out a good first gun that fit what I wanted (something to have fun and learn to shoot with) -- I was originally attracted to the TEC-9 on the shelf, but the guy steered me away from that and I walked out with a nice Norinco SKS for $215.

I remember being worried about not knowing anything in the gun shop... I tried really hard to act mature. I didn't gush over how cool anything was or how it was like the KF-7 in Goldeneye or whatever. I agree with all of Gord's advice for youngsters.

Unfortunately it took me about 7 years of owning guns before I really learned how to SHOOT. That was at my first Appleseed back in 2007 when I was 22. I wasn't too bad for being a totally self-taught shooter with nobody to show me the ropes, but I really wish there was a program like Appleseed back when I was 15, to get me started off the right way. That is one of the reasons I decided to become more involved in the program as a Shoot Boss and State Coordinator... because I know there are a lot of folks out there who could benefit from some systematic instruction in the proper use of firearms as much as I did.

Oh and yes, I am 26 and a practicing attorney, but I never totally lost my love for video games. I have an X-box and Call of Duty Black Ops... I kind of suck at it, but I still get on there sometimes after the GF goes to sleep. I am "henschman762" on X-box live if anybody wants to friend me, lol. You can look at my little record thingy and see how bad I suck, but hey, I could take any of you to school at Goldeneye. ;) Or the 25m Army Qualification Test. ;)

FullEffect1911
May 20, 2011, 09:19 AM
Goldeneye.... what a superb game that was!

Cop Bob:

I agree with just about everything you wrote, especially that women are easier to teach to shoot. I think it has a lot to do with ego as well, shooting is a relatively masculine thing and more/most men don't like being taught things they already think they know.

It's the people who can step back and think that maybe they don't know everything there is to know that actually make strides to becoming better. Many younger males have a problem with this.

youngda9
May 20, 2011, 09:50 AM
Can we start a psychology section on this forum...to put all this discussion about feelings, reactions, and emotions into? Less talk about guns and more stuff that belongs on the Dr. Phil show every day around here.

Gord
May 20, 2011, 05:18 PM
Less talk about guns and more stuff that belongs on the Dr. Phil show every day around here.

If you don't think that attracting and mentoring a new generation of shooters to the sport and the cause is a pertinent issue, great; some of us do. It's a two-way street; they need to act and speak with maturity if they want to be taken seriously, but the older folks need to give them some leeway as well - the times are changing and the culture is too!

A lot of the older guys I see making fun of videogames feel the same way about computers as well - of course they tend to waste what comparatively little time they have left standing in line at the bank or the post office while I pay my bills or print out shipping labels at home.

The simple fact is that sooner or later we all have to adapt to new technologies and cultural changes or risk being marginalized as obsolete coots and curmudgeons pushing outdated methods and attitudes. I'm sure that by the time I'm 60 we'll all be jacked into the central NeuroNet piped directly into our brains or something - don't think I'm not mentally preparing myself for the day when I have to ask a youngster the equivalent of "my printer won't print, what do I do?" :)

Any young'uns feeling cocky should remember that one day we're going to be out of our element with technology too:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/12/12/

;)

HOOfan_1
May 21, 2011, 09:55 AM
I've been shooting since I was 4 years old. Started with a pellet gun, moved up to .22LR and .410 shotgun when I was 6 or 7, moved up to 20 guage when I was 8 or 9 and I was shooting a .45 ACP 1911 as well .357 magnum. Moved up to 12 guage with full load 3 inch magnums and .30-30 when I was 10 (shot my first deer with 3" magnums at 12). Was shooting .30-06 and .45 Long Colt heavy loads by 13.

I spent a lot of time in the field and on the range as a kid. I also just happen to like plaing video games. I also like to watch movies. I love the site imfdb.com. I often point to a gun in the gunstore and remark to my dad "so and so was using that in such and such movie" He occasionally will point to one and ask "isn't that the gun they showed on the Military Channel top 10 list?"

I don't see the problem. I am passionate about guns, I am shooting them, I am here discussing them on a message board, I am watching them used in movies, I am watching Youtube videos about them and I am playing video games with guns in them.

mljdeckard
May 21, 2011, 10:00 AM
I was 17 once too. There's a difference between someone who knows they need to learn a lot, and someone who thinks they know everything because they played video games. As long as they are pleasant and safe, I will work with them.

RX-178
May 21, 2011, 11:32 AM
+1 to henschman

I wonder if it's just about a sense of being threatened? I mean, these potential new shooters might not know anything about real guns, but the gun store guys tend to know flat jack about videogames! :D

Yeah, I've been a gamer who wasted most of my free time on them ever since Xmas 1995 when I got a brand new Sony Playstation. You can still see my gaming PC running stuff in the background of my Vlogs too.

A few years ago though, I found myself starting to go to IGN and Gamespot less and less, and THR, Defense Review and Budsgunshop more and more. I don't think I'm quite ready to give up the gamer thing though. Maybe I'll do a video game review vid one of these days.

:D

Heretic
May 22, 2011, 10:56 AM
Here's a thought. What if someone wrote a video game that taught the safty aspect, included things like bullet drop and wind drift. Add a mil-dot scope using actual math. realistic flash and recoil. Something that would translate into real world shooting.

Gord
May 22, 2011, 02:41 PM
Then that videogame would be incredibly tedious, no one would play it and it would lose the company that developed and/or published it crazy amounts of money.

There are already plenty of videogames out there that involve wind drift and bullet drop - I was playing one of them, Delta Force: Land Warrior, back in 2002. There are also sniper-centric games that involve laboriously crawling hundreds of yards towards a target in order to make an undetected shot, and you know what? They suck. I uninstalled that game after twenty minutes and demanded my money back.

Just like movies, videogames sacrifice realism for entertainment value. The problem occurs when people don't realize or acknowledge this. Do you really think kvetching about all the "inaccuracies" in every movie featuring gunplay is any different? Way to miss the point.

HOOfan_1
May 22, 2011, 03:14 PM
Here's a thought. What if someone wrote a video game that taught the safty aspect, included things like bullet drop and wind drift. Add a mil-dot scope using actual math. realistic flash and recoil. Something that would translate into real world shooting.

Then that videogame would be incredibly tedious, no one would play it and it would lose the company that developed and/or published it crazy amounts of money.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Orchestra:_Ostfront_41-45

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Orchestra:_Heroes_of_Stalingrad

Gord
May 22, 2011, 04:28 PM
[snip]

No.

Having iron sights and breath sway (both features that have been in several games since the mid-'90s and probably earlier) does not make a game any more realistic in the purview of what we're talking about here. It would take an incredible amount of work to model the guns, their recoil, their ballistics, etc. to approximate their real-world counterparts as much as possible (and then you'd still run into issues like "how much damage should this gun do" - these things are not consistent IRL). Nor does it address the safety/handling aspect - are you going to put in a manual "finger off trigger" key and have the game script random NDs if you don't? Are you going to have any NPC (including allies) take up a firing stance and/or start shooting at you if you point your weapon at them? Etc., etc.

HOOfan_1
May 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
Except Red Orchestra has more than just iron sites and swaying. It has bullet drop compensation and area specific damage, as well as no way to heal and one shot death for vital regions. About as realistic as a video game will ever get, and it is popular, popular enough to get a sequel.

Heretic
May 23, 2011, 02:43 PM
I don't think I missed the point at all. Video games are not a way to learn shooting skills. In fact, what is learned from playing is detrimental to shooting skills. Wrong is wrong. If you have fun playing games, fine, Just don't try to pass it off as training.

buck460XVR
May 23, 2011, 06:16 PM
In fact, what is learned from playing is detrimental to shooting skills.


......and how is that? That's like sayin' that coloring as as a child is detrimental to writing skills. It's still hand/eye coordination. It's still acquiring a sight picture. I've taught many young people in hunter safety and taken many of my youngest son's friends out to the range that had no previous experience with guns other than playing video games. Many of these youths came from a single parent household where there were no guns. They still understood the basics of aiming with various sights. They still knew the basics of pulling the trigger as the sight crossed the target as opposed to trying to hold the sight perfectly still. None of them displayed any bad habits that were hard to correct. I can't say this about some of the youths that were introduced to firearms by their dad. The thing is, the video games are what sparked a passion in firearms for them, or at least an interest. Not a bad thing at all in my book.

Snowbandit
May 23, 2011, 06:33 PM
Back in the "day", early '70's, the television gun to have was Dirty Harry's 6 1/2-inch S&W model 29 .44 Magnum. It was, "the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off"! "Go ahead, make my day"! Only gun I ever seriously over paid for and I still have it because I still couldn't get back what I've got in it. Any gun shop that doesn't play to what's currently popular is being foolish.

Heretic
May 24, 2011, 12:08 PM
So......pushing buttons and proper breath and trigger control are the same thing? Perhaps we should connect nintendo controllers to all our AR's. Having fun playing a game is fine. If it inspires someone to learn to shoot,fine. But as I said before, Don't mistake it for training,because it's not.

Seattleimport
May 24, 2011, 06:57 PM
I think it's a combination of 1) "I was into guns before they were cool" and, 2) simple culture clash.

It'll be interesting to see how "gun culture" shakes out. I put that in quotes because even here--the most reasonable and respectful gun forum I've found--there's a visibly apparent divide between the Red State / Ted Nugent crowd and the Blue State / Gun Nerd crowd. If I may grossly overgeneralize.

I mean, the conventional wisdom is that the boom in gun sales was from redstaters panicking that Obama would steal their guns. But I wonder if a significant portion of those sales were from a generation of 80's and 90's kids coming into adulthood after growing up on The Matrix and Call of Duty--and wanting to own a cool firearm as an adult. Or, alternatively: a bunch of educated gamers looking at the present variables (social and economic turmoil, environmental strains) and making the rational decision to equip some weapons before heading into the dungeon. So to speak.

Point is: I think the friction is coming from members of established "gun culture"--which tended to be defined by the NRA and comes along with all sorts of social/political baggage--meeting up with new gun culture--which is apparently a pretty broad spectrum of political views united by shared interest in guns as tools/toys.

HOOfan_1
May 24, 2011, 07:43 PM
So......pushing buttons and proper breath and trigger control are the same thing? Perhaps we should connect nintendo controllers to all our AR's. Having fun playing a game is fine. If it inspires someone to learn to shoot,fine. But as I said before, Don't mistake it for training,because it's not.

I guess the US Army feels differently

http://www.stripes.com/news/not-playing-around-army-to-invest-50m-in-combat-training-games-1.85595

Of course they aren't using it for training soldiers to shoot, but to fight.

Your point was video games are detrimental to shooting skills...you are wrong.

Video games don't necessarily train one to shoot correctly, but then again going out to the range and shooting without proper instruction doesn't either.

mr.trooper
May 24, 2011, 08:20 PM
Harrygunner thats just plain racist of those people. Thats not ok anywhere. Its people like them who give gun owners a bad name. They truly are the redneck racist gun toting idiots that is the stereotype.


Stereotypes are based in part on fact... LOTS of gun owners really ARE that racist or that crazy. Many of those that are not racists are still dishonest businessmen - ever wonder why so many gun shops struggle to stay afloat? Its not for lack of interest in guns, its because most of the people who ran them are jerks who try to rape everyone who walks in the door. that makes it hard to get repeat business. ;)

Spend some time actually talking to the people in the booths at most gun shows and you will see that.

ForumSurfer
May 24, 2011, 11:32 PM
Video games don't necessarily train one to shoot correctly, but then again going out to the range and shooting without proper instruction doesn't either.

That brings to mind another point. Video games may not teach you proper self defense training; but shooting on a static firing line at a static piece of paper at a range that doesn't allow double taps or rapid fire doesn't, either. You get the basics in a range environment like that, but you don't get the fundamentals of self defense shooting.

withdrawn34
May 25, 2011, 12:36 AM
I suppose being a child of the internet age was fortunate in my case; I had no one to show me the ropes with guns. I researched and read everything I could, for years, online. Then one day, I walked into a gun store with a gun-neutral cousin of mine to inquire about renting a handgun to shoot on the range. I was so nervous I could barely walk, even though I'm not quite sure what I was nervous about.

Now I am completely comfortable in a gun store, and on the range. Seeing other nervous newbies seems almost completely silly to me; what do they have to be nervous about? they'll have a great time if they do things properly and safely!

But then I remember myself. I remember how open I was to guns in the beginning, and even then, I was still nervous. I imagine those who haven't done that knid of research nor have the kind of deep desire, curiosity, and desire to take care of myself that I developed is going to be significantly more nervous.

I feel that my experience can really benefit other newbies, because I feel like I sort of "understand" them. I see both grumpy and well-intentioned "all my life" gun people, and while many do a fine job with the newbies, there are many who just can't understand.

I come from a completely non-gun family. In fact, the topic never really comes up. I am a complete anomaly in my family, and to a larger extent, the larger community and culture in which I was raised. My values are different. I feel significantly closer to the American identity than I suppose most of my family does.

I know that I don't fit the "mold" of the "stereotypical" gun owner, and there are shops where that sort of thing is frowned upon. But... I don't care. This is for me. The old guard will either change, or will refuse to change and will eventually pass on from this life after they've lived their life. Things will change.

stonecutter2
May 25, 2011, 01:16 PM
Just like in the past, popular media can drive certain individuals' interests.

I bet some 6 shooters got sold because kids were fans of John Wayne. So what? Did the gun shop owners laugh then because some kid wanted a revolver like John Wayne's? Maybe.

These days, "video games" are massively popular. And many of them feature shooting in one way or another.

Can they make an arrogant kid think they can shoot great because of a game? Yeah, obviously - some people watch kung fu movies and think they know kung fu, but they don't. They may know something ABOUT kung fu, but they can't actually do anything near someone who actually practices it, in real life.

I do believe that modern games can demonstrate basic weapon handling without potential physical harm. And I also believe a lot of kids these days grow up where guns can't be shot, or in households that don't have guns. Video games may introduce someone to a hobby, or competitive shooting, or collecting. Kudos to the gaming industry for that.

I started collecting WWII rifles because of Band of Brothers, but so what? I still like collecting rifles and shooting them, thinking about their history. What if I'd started collecting because of Call of Duty? No difference in my mind, except that in Band of Brothers I watched what others did, in Call of Duty the video game lets me "be" that person and "fight" in "battles." It's far more interactive. And a lot of games these days actually do teach quite a bit of history. CoD: World at War had a lot of great WWII pictures and history in it.

Must just be a generational thing.

Oh, and I do think that video games can help teach sight picture. I wouldn't have known a thing about how to aim if i didn't learn it in video games to start with :P

Seattleimport
May 25, 2011, 01:25 PM
I agree that things will change; I just get frustrated that they're not changing faster.

For example, earlier this week a homeowner in my area shot two burglars who were invading his home. One died. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015126262_apwatacomagarageshooting.html

Read the comments on that story and you'll see what I'm talking about. There's a huge amount of support for the homeowner, some reasonable "let's not celebrate death" caution, and some silly anti-self-defense nonsense.

What annoyed me was that there were more than a few "pro-gun" posts that needlessly slam liberals. Like this guy: "It would be really nice if liberal gun grabbers would do us a favor and put signs in their yard indicating their political opinion. I'll do the same and sleep well."

There's no reason for that. "Gun culture" 's hostility toward liberals needlessly alienates half the citizens of this country. If you read the other posts, you'll see many self-identified liberals commending the homeowner and proudly proclaiming that they are gun owners.

It really confuses/frustrates me. I'm tempted to make a new thread entitled "Liberal ≠ anti-gun".

41magsnub
May 25, 2011, 01:32 PM
Funny story.. years ago I played America's Army. On the M16 qualification section in basic in the game I shot the exact same score I did when I qualified in real Army basic training.

Heretic
May 25, 2011, 01:45 PM
I heard the other day that the U.S. military fires 250,000 rounds for every insurgent that's killed. Wow, those training games work,don't they.


Firearm salesmen don't have to be honest. They have the FFL. their mini-monoply . If you want to buy a gun, you just about have to do business with them.

Sam1911
May 25, 2011, 01:59 PM
I heard the other day that the U.S. military fires 250,000 rounds for every insurgent that's killed. Wow, those training games work,don't they.
Those kinds of numbers have a lot more to do with area denial and suppressive machine gun fire than they do with marksmanship. In military situations there is enormous value in firing thousands of rounds simply to keep the enemy's head down and/or not allow them to approach an area. Far more rounds are expended this way than are intended to hit and/or kill a specific enemy soldier.

Most accounts seem to indicate that our soldiers are more accurate than ever. The "nation of riflemen" concept where supposedly average Americans (or British colonists prior to 1776) stepped up to the line and defeated our enemies with their natural woodscraft and marksmanship earned through surviving with their rifles and living off the wilderness is largely a myth. Americans certainly are no worse soldiers or marksmen due to their recent exposure to video games.

Heretic
May 25, 2011, 03:58 PM
seattleimport

Once again, lets not confuse liberals with leftists. Leftists attack our rights constantly, and we are expected to just accept it and do nothing. When "antis" come after my rights,they shouldnt expect civil behavior from me. An attack on my rights is the same as an attack on my person.

Heretic
May 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
A thought occurs. I'm always the car when I play monoply. I guess that means I know how to drive.

USAF_Vet
May 25, 2011, 04:51 PM
I consider myself a gun noob, despite being proficient and military trained with an assortment of fire arms.

but, I'm not opposed to asking question in an intelligent and polite manner. Looking at two single shot 20gauge shotguns, I asked the gun shop guy which we would recommend. I could plainly see the difference, which was negligible, but he answered my question by pointing out something I had not noticed at all.

Too many gun noobs get into guns from video games. While there is nothing wrong there, the video game does not teach much in the way of safety and handling of firearms. Nor do they teach the reality of firearms. They can list all the specs in the world, which video-gam-gun-fanatics devour to no end, but they don't teach anything really helpful, imo. Seems like every video-gamer turned gun guru thinks head shots are simple, body armor is abundant, and killing is easy.

I don't dislike 'gun noobs' but I detest 'gun noob experts' who learned all they need to know from video games. I've seen people with the holier than thou attitude strut into gun shops thinking they are king because they are on the leader board of some 1st person online shooter, then refuse to listen to anything that might be different than what their XBox tells them about guns.

Ole Coot
May 25, 2011, 06:13 PM
Video games may help sharpen reflex, hand-eye usage. Can't lump people and video games together. I don't consider the term "Redneck Racist" as an assumption that those two words belong together. I for one am definitely a REDNECK, not a racist so please look up the origin of the term before lumping a lot of us in the racist category.

Nushif
May 25, 2011, 06:24 PM
I don't consider the term "Redneck Racist" as an assumption that those two words belong together.

Exacately! There's a whole slew of common rtheroic that combines words that often have no bearing on each other.

jahwarrior
May 25, 2011, 06:29 PM
i don't know about you slackers, but i was born tattooed, and wielding 1911s akimbo.

buck460XVR
May 25, 2011, 07:03 PM
A thought occurs. I'm always the car when I play monoply. I guess that means I know how to drive.

.....or according to a previous post of yours in this thread, it makes you a lousy driver and a danger to us all.

In fact, what is learned from playing is detrimental

....guess that's why I'm no good with money. Too much monopoly as a kid.

Stevie-Ray
May 25, 2011, 08:23 PM
Likewise, there is no M4 for civilians; you might have shot an "M4gery," but most of us just call 'em AR-15s.Not exactly. When I bought my Colt 6721, I was torn between that and the M4. Yes, it was called the M4, just as sure as mine is called the Tactical Carbine, even though so many roll their eyes at the word tactical. Colt did not elect to call it an M4gery.

mr.trooper
May 25, 2011, 09:10 PM
What if someone wrote a video game that taught the safty aspect, included things like bullet drop and wind drift. Add a mil-dot scope using actual math. realistic flash and recoil. Something that would translate into real world shooting.

It would take an incredible amount of work to model the guns, their recoil, their ballistics, etc. to approximate their real-world counterparts as much as possible

For those who don't know, you can download a FREE game from Sniper Central that is exactly that in a limited sense. There is only one level, and one gun - Rem 700 308 with a Leupold MilDot scope - but the trajectories are realistic in just about every way (drift, wind, elevation, angle, velocity loss, drop, ect.), and you have to deal with vast and varied terrain, breath sway, and you can dope / adjust your optic realistically.

Joe Demko
May 25, 2011, 09:46 PM
I fired my first real firearm in 1967 at age 5. Owned my first at age 10. I was in the army. I was a deputy sheriff. I also own or owned a bunch of video game guns. Let's consider only the ones from the Fallout 3/New Vegas universe:

1. Marlin guide gun aka "brush gun"
2. AR-15 aka "service rifle"
3. 1911 aka ".45 auto pistol"
4. AK side-folder aka "Chinese assault rifle"
5. SAA aka ".357 magnum revolver" (could also be a Ruger Vaquero)
6. Striker 12 gauge aka "riot shotgun"
7. Mauser Broomhandle aka "Chinese pistol"
8. Remington 870 aka "Hunting Shotgun"
9. Browning Hi-Power aka "9mm pistol"
10. S&W Model 29 aka ".44 magnum"

Now, most of these I already had years before the games came out, but I got a jag out of seeing them in the game. Some of them I bought specifically because I wanted one like in the game.

Anybody who ever wanted a gun like Gene Autry, Vic Morrow, or Clint Eastwood had in some movie or TV show has no right to sneer at video gamers.

Heretic
May 25, 2011, 11:36 PM
If being the car in monopoly was the only experience I had with cars, I would be a danger to myself and others. I see sarcasm is lost on some.

mrtrooper, I'll check that game out.

harrygunner
May 26, 2011, 04:09 PM
If this thread is about our sport and civil right being impacted by poor public relations -

Imagine if minorities felt included, the increase of people appreciating guns as tools.

The more I read about the history of this country, the more it seems like keeping guns from black people is like a targeted bio-weapon that mutated to harm everyone. What went around came around.

Regardless of how the mess came about, we're all affected.

Here's a recent example of a minority group rallying behind our cause: http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Peruta_Corrected-Amicus-Brief-for-Congress-of-Racial-Equality-Inc..pdf

Could we use more of this?

Big_E
May 26, 2011, 04:28 PM
I'm a youngster by most people's standards, I don't recall being "mistreated" much by gun store owners, except in one instance but that guy was an *** anyway.

I play a lot of video games, and watch a lot of movies with guns in them. Ever since I was little I have been enamored with firearms and it helps my dad likes all kinds of guns (but not the Russian ones :( )

It was nice when I started accumulating a vast knowledge of firearms, so when I walk into a gun shop and start asking all kinds of questions the old timers are actually kind of surprised. Hell, I even had somewhat long hair for awhile and I was afraid of being persecuted because they thought I was a "hippie" but now I see older gun owners that look like Bill Hickock.

I hate having to explain to my friends though when showing my CZ-75 that it was a pistol in Call of Duty: Black Ops, but then I have to realize some people just aren't that into guns like I am.

Helping out new shooters pick out a gun is something I enjoy, if they come up asking about the best zombie or SpecOps gun, I tolerate it and then educate them on the subject. Because, I once had similar thoughts too. We as a community have to foster in these new shooters and instruct them, because if we alienate them, it hurts our numbers and image, which will hurt how effective we can fight for our 2nd Amendment rights. We just have to be sure that we instruct discipline and good conduct, because just allowing new shooters to have cool rifles and then they go out and make fools of themselves in public hurts our image as well.

Old krow
May 26, 2011, 05:07 PM
......and how is that? That's like sayin' that coloring as as a child is detrimental to writing skills. It's still hand/eye coordination. It's still acquiring a sight picture.

Not that I would disagree that we cannot learn from a video game, but, it'll only take you so far. Could it be counter-productive? In some cases it probably can be. Learning bad habits and then practicing those bad habits. When shooting in the LOD, Self-Defense, or even hunting in some cases will happen with adrenaline. Many people will lose at least part of their fine motor skills in those situations. Shooting in a game requires them.

Aside from the adrenaline rush, there's a whole list of things that aren't necessarily incorporated into a video games, such as heat, cold, hunger, BUGS!, monkey butt, shivering, sweating, recoil, etc.

I don't dislike 'gun noobs' but I detest 'gun noob experts' who learned all they need to know from video games.

That's probably a better way to look at it. It's really more about out abilities to learn then it is anything else. When we understand that we don't know everything and that we need to continue learning we're walking in the right direction. Getting to that point should matter more than how we got there.

Vaarok
May 26, 2011, 05:25 PM
Every old man I have to weave around at gunshows because he's fondling a Winchester, I daresay, is probably following Lone Ranger/John Wayne ignited childhood passions. No different than my generation liking ARs and anything else black plastic.

I literally bought my first firearm because I played Call of Duty. I read up on the guns on World.guns.ru, and then a couple links down, started browsing Gunsamerica.

I went nuts when I found out I could get a real WW2 gun for $100.

Then I made accounts at Surplusrifle and Gunboards.

The hivemind of the internet self-regulates- people who bull<deleted> get publicly denounced immediately, and the majority opinion, with citations, prevails.

With the advent of the internet, there are no stupid embarrassing questions. There's the veil of anonymity and Google. Newbs can self-educate if they want to, no longer burdened by the "I don't know any friends who're gun owners" or having to surmount the Fudd Factor that arises when the only gun owners they know are Hunters.

Yes, the kid who lusts for the SCAR because he's played too much Modern Warfare is annoying, but he's just the latest itineration of the old guy who really wants a Springfield because he watched COMBAT or something in his youth.

Media is the bait, fun is the hook, and information is the line with which we draw them in. We can use a net(work) to hasten their arrival, but as long as they have one direct and unbroken connection to a means to obtain the truth, the pull should be irresistable.

Justin
May 26, 2011, 07:35 PM
I authored a fairly lengthy post on the phenomenon of video games and how they can act as a gateway for new shooters, and that furthermore, it behooves us to be tolerant of the overly-excited n00b.

But I deleted it. The fudds that can't figure out that gamers are going to make up a significant portion of future gun owners aren't worth wasting my time on.

Nushif
May 26, 2011, 07:37 PM
Media is the bait, fun is the hook, and information is the line with which we draw them in.

That is an uber line. FTW, as the saying goes. Or [Fact] depending on your game.

Heretic
May 26, 2011, 09:38 PM
I grew up watching "Combat" and " Rat Patrol". I saw cool guns there. I liked those shows, and the guns I saw. I played "Duckhunt" on the Nintendo. I never deluded myself that I was learning anything useful about guns or how to shoot them by entertaining myself in these ways. I understand that some people cannot discern between fantasy and reality, (RE. that joker who showed up for jury duty in a Star Trek uniform) but I try not to encourage them.

pikid89
May 26, 2011, 10:07 PM
Video games are not a way to learn shooting skills.
to a degree i disagree

i was teaching my young cousin to shoot my 10/22 outfitted with tech sights

instead of trying to explain how a peep sight works, i just told him to think about how the sights look on the m-16 on his call of duty game...he picked it up immediately and was making hits i would not normally expect from a newbie

Gig 'em
May 26, 2011, 10:35 PM
I was introduced to guns at a very young age by my father and grandpa. I was the country boy that learned on a single shot .22 shooting old oil cans. I loved guns and hunting from then on. When I was in the 6th grade, I started reading Guns & Ammo and Field & Stream and haven't stopped. That was almost 20 years ago. I loved rifles and learned as much as I could. Several years later, my dad gave me my first rifle, and that cemented it. I wasn't into handguns and shotguns until college and beyond. In college, I remember going to some gun stores and being blackballed as the young moron. Needless to say, big box stores were my friend. I got what I needed without the condescension. Fast forward a ways, and I decided to go buy a handgun. I was pretty open about the fact that I was not entirely sure what I wanted and gave some of my criterion. From the moment I opened my mouth, it was like I was being typecast into the "idiot noob" group. I look a lot younger than I am, and that my not have helped. I was asking honest questions but being completely ignored. I should say that I did not grow up with video games. They existed in adolescence, but I preferred the "real thing", as I would put it. I applaud the views of those who are welcoming. If I had no previous experiences with guns, I probably would have walked and never looked back. I did walk out of that gun store and have never returned. I finally found one in my neck of the woods that I really like. The owner is an old veteran and a really high quality person. He took the time to talk and sort out my questions. I didn't buy the first time I went it, but returned later and did. When I did, he recognized me, and it made all the difference in the world. Maybe I just prefer that small-town, country feel.

I realize that this thread is about videogamers, but I also wanted to present my slightly different perspective as a non-gamer that was typecast and alienated because of it. I am new to the whole forum thing, and your patience has been appreciated. Thanks.
-Gig 'em-

Heretic
May 27, 2011, 11:24 AM
In reading back over this thread, I get the feeling I haven't been clear. I have worked with young people, teaching them to shoot, gun safety, tracking, etc. My point is that they have so many misconceptions ingrained in them by these games that have to be unlearned before they can begin to learn proper technique. I'm not saying they can't learn, I'm saying they think they already know, and I have to start by convincing them that what they learned from a game doesn't work in the real world.

IcemanUnlimited
May 27, 2011, 01:11 PM
Well I generally don't deal with people in person.. I do all my research online and study for hours. Just head to shop that carries what I want, walk in, purchase, leave.

I used to be a video gamer, hardly anymore.. I must admit it makes my blood boil when some Call of Duty punk thinks they're good with guns.

I have to admit I laughed when I read this:
I had a kid I know go on and on about how he could hit a target at 1000 yards. I was curious, so I invited him to go shooting. He couldn't hit beer cans at 50 yards. After hearing that my Win 70 was junk, he dropped the comment that it was easier on his game. He had never touched a gun in his life, but felt he was a sniper, and had nothing to learn. I feel video games ruin any chance of becoming proficent with a firearm the same way Qbasic ruined a generation of computer programers.

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