So if I want a 1911-pattern 10mm...


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Teufelhunden
January 14, 2004, 11:27 AM
I've got a yen for a 1911 and a 10mm, so I thought I'd combine the two and just get a 1911-pattern 10mm. So if I've got the yen for a 10mm 1911 pattern weapon, should I start looking at the Delta Elites, or skip over to Brownells and buy the parts and have it assembled? Looking at the Delta Elites on gunbroker.com auctionarms.com and gunsamerica.com, it seems they run from about $750 to $1200; doing a rough estimate on parts, I think I can beat that, but I also don't know what a smith will charge me for assembly.

Are there any other factory manufactured 1911 pattern 10mm's I can consider? Since my 10mm selection in general is limited, I don't have a brand in mind, but are there any more 10mm 1911's?

Is the Delta Elite 'drop-proof' (series-70 safety etc)? It might end-up being an off-duty carry piece, and most departments seem to want at least that level of safety.

Are the Delta Elite's a reasonable carry piece (accuracy, reliability etc), or are they range guns that are pretty to look at in the safe?

Lastly, I've yet to fire a 10mm because I can't find anyone who's got one! Looking at the ballistics and the versatility in the round design, it seems great, but all I hear about is how tough they are to shoot. Are they really that insufferable? Obviously, bullet weight and full-house loads make a difference, but is it uncontrollable to your average shooter?

-Teuf

*Edited to add: What about the Dan Wesson Razorback? Has anyone got comments either way on it?

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Dannyboy
January 14, 2004, 11:34 AM
I felt the exact same way last year, at just about this time. I wanted a 10mm and a 1911 and I got both with a Dan Wesson Razorback. Dan Wesson is now making a few different models in 10mm and Kimber is making one, as well. Then, as you know, there is the Delta Elite. I can't say which is the best. People have had problems with the Dan Wessons and apparently, there are QC problems at Kimber, as well. There are others here that can give you much more and much better info but this is about all I can think of right now. I hope it helped a bit.

edited to add:

As for the Razorback, I love mine and I had no problems whatsoever with it. However, I did have a problem with my grip and limp-wristing to start with but I figured that out PDQ.

Zak Smith
January 14, 2004, 01:43 PM
I've got a Dan Wesson Patriot (.45ACP) with about 10,000 rounds through it. With good ammo, it's very reliable. Just remember to clean under that external extractor every 4000 rounds or so.

-z

LASur5r
January 14, 2004, 01:52 PM
Back in the day...
Loved my Smith 1076, then my buddy had a Delta Elite(shhh, don't tell him, but I liked his Delta a little more)...depending on your load...different kind of feel in recoil than a .45, but they make nice clean holes and shoot much flatter...seemed to be a little more accurate than some of the .45's that I've had.
Had to give up my 1076 when I had an AD with the decocker...Smith had a recall after that....seems others were having the same problem...I have trust issues when my favorite ends up a little less than trustworthy.
Delta Elites were pricey at that time and I really didn't want to spend the money.....so I bought another .45 (Dan Wesson Pointman)...might look into another 10mm. soon.....having that urge again.
Good hunting in finding your 10mm.

Sunray
January 14, 2004, 02:06 PM
Shot one when they first came out in 1987. Not bad. Recoil is about the same as a hot .45 ACP, but nothing to worry about. The cost and availability of ammo on the other hand....

ajacobs
January 14, 2004, 05:01 PM
Delta elites are a series 80 pistol, meaning they have a firing pin saftey, a series 70 or pre series 70 does not. It took me a year but I bought my delta elite for 400 plus tax. And I have heard of many others being bought recently in that price range.

warrior23
January 14, 2004, 05:18 PM
Another vote for Dan Wesson,I have a Patriot in 45 and now awaiting my Dave Pruit,next will be a 10mm Razorback.

M1911
January 14, 2004, 07:53 PM
I found a stainless Delta Elite for $650. Ajacobs is right on about the safety -- the Delta Elite has Series 80 lockwork, which means it has a firing pin safety and is drop safe; Series 70 lockwork does not have a firing pin safety (which means it is a little less safe, but doesn't bother me in the least).

Personally, I prefer 1911s with beavertail safeties, extended thumb safeties, and better sights (e.g., Heinie straight-eight, Novak, etc.). The Delta Elite doesn't come with any of these. So for me, it will cost several hundred bucks to get my Delta Elite to where I would carry it. Other people prefer the standard configuration. YMMV.

Once I figure out how much I owe my rich uncle, I may send my Delta Elite off to a gunsmith...

Stevie-Ray
January 14, 2004, 08:03 PM
I've had my Delta Elite for over 15 years now. Still love it and still love to shoot it. Paid $425 for it back then. One of the best buys I ever did. Saw one at the last gun show for $789.:eek: I used to work up loads for it back when I had more time, along with my .45. Those were the best times of my shooting life.

Don't know about the quality about the others, but my Colt is one of the tightest and best shooting pieces I own. Never had a problem of any kind with it.

jfh
January 15, 2004, 12:19 AM
and my two-bit's worth is to simply build up a new top end--slide, barrel, etc., and use the same bottom end. You'll have to do some spring testing--seems like I had to have a 20 lb spring or so with the 10 when shooting the bigger loads.

My receivers are both SA 1911s from about fifteen years ago, built up with new accessories--about like a fully-done 1911 available now.

If you want to shoot A LOT, .45 ACP lasts forever because it's low pressure; I've found splits in my Starline brass after as little as four uses with full-power loads. But, I did develop a 10mm load that was about 900+ fps with a 180 or 200 LTC that used about the same power (231) as a .45 load.

I'll be getting my reloading bench set up again in the next few months, and will again load both the 10 and the .45ACP.

Jim H.

stellarpod
January 15, 2004, 01:09 AM
Alternative: Kimber

stellarpod

Bren
January 15, 2004, 01:17 AM
I found a LNIB pre II 40 kimber that was reamed to 10mm. It cost me $525 and it's turned out to be my favorite 10mm of the bunch. The gun is very accurate and totally reliable. The Kimbers have a supported ramped barrel which is very important ( to me anyway).

Reaming a 40 Para or Kimber that is found in good condition at a good price is the way to go! Any good smith can ream and head space a barrel to perfection and you can gain great accuracy at little cost, then just up the recoil spring, hammer spring, and see how she times. Also use metalform mags. Bren


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid76/p201ca74fad8fa15f762f8681d57cec39/fb47b863.jpg

gunfan
January 15, 2004, 01:46 AM
that you have Dan Wesson stocks on your "beloved" Kimber? Is this peni, er, I mean, pistol envy, Bren?! :neener: :neener: :neener: ;) :D :evil:

rock jock
January 15, 2004, 02:18 AM
I have had my Razorback for a couple of months now and it has been a dream to shoot. Beautiful gun. Very accurate.

Bren
January 15, 2004, 02:22 AM
No my son,,,,

It stands for either "Devil worshiper" or "Dim Wits". :evil: Maybe we should do a poll. :neener:

Or it just reminds me of The big mistake that could have been. :uhoh:

I had serial number 10 ya know and gladly gave it up. ;) Bren

9x19
January 15, 2004, 06:49 AM
What a statement!

Kimber... the pistol Dan Wesson hopes to be. :D

I recently bought a Kimber Stainless Target II in 10mm, and it has been an excellent performer.

stans
January 15, 2004, 07:09 AM
I have a Delta Elite, it has been 100% reliable, even feeds empties from 3 different Colt factory mags! Mine has been modified with a trigger job, undercut trigger guard, beavertail, and Pachmayer stocks. It recoils, with full power ammo, much like a 6 inch 357 with full power loads.

Choices today in the 1911 format: Used Delta Elite, series 80 firing pin safety, prices vary wildly!

Dan Wesson, good factory support, nice products, no firing pin safety.

Kimber, good product, limited production run, Swartz firing pin safety, MIM parts and horror stories of parts failures.

Get a 1911 in 40 S&W and ream the chamber, good route, can be inexpensive.

Build your own, could get expensive.

Zach S
January 15, 2004, 10:41 AM
I've been thinking about taking the reamed Para 16-40 route. But then Id have to get a blank slide and have Para P16-10mm engraved on it, its just one of those lttle things that would get on my nerves, like 5.0 badges on a mustang with a 351W...

BigG
January 15, 2004, 11:32 AM
I have three Colt 10mm autos and they are all accurate and bullet proof. No mals and they have the neat triangle logo.

gunfan
January 15, 2004, 11:35 AM
I have never been happier! In truth, the Kimber is a fine pistol. I do believe, however, that the Razorback is a piece of, shall we say, 'tighter fit.'

The Razorback was built to be a "match-grade" pistol from the outset. While there may have been some fit and finish problems with peripheral accoutrements, such as sights, and retaining pins, Dan Wesson has been more than willing to solve this problems with a telephone call, and shipping of the piece in question. With D.W, customer service is 'job one.'

My Razorback, (#084) is a dream come true and worth every penny!

Scott

Big Daddy
January 15, 2004, 01:06 PM
A used Delta Elite, a new Kimber or a new DW Razorback will set you back much less than a full custom assembled from parts. I don't know where you are doing your shopping or what parts you have spec'd but I would be impressed if you could just buy the parts for a custom 10mm 1911 for less than a used Delta Elite.

Frame: $150
Slide w/o sight cuts: $200
Barrel: $150
Sight Cuts and installation: $125
Bushing: $20
Recoil set-up: $30
Link: $6
Pin Set: 15$
Hammer: $40
Sear: $30
Strut: $13
Disconnector: $16
Trigger: $25
Magazine: $22
Grip Safety: $30
Mainspring Housing: $30
Grips: $30
Ejector: $18
Extractor: $22
Firing Pin: $6
Firing Pin Stop: $12

That's $793 not including a finish if you go blue, stainless steel parts would be slightly higher. Of course you have to pay someone to assemble it too, My estimate would be $800-$1000, or more with a big name smith.

Obviously, a full house custom would be many times nicer than a production gun, but if you are just looking at getting a 10mm 1911 you don't NEED a full custom. It depends on if you would want to upgrade/customize the production pistol if you get one.

I think the prices I quoted are the lowest I would go and I was trying to be conservative. I think a full house custom is more like $2500 up, but there are some smiths with very reasonable fees that sell you the parts at cost.

Good luck.

Sean Smith
January 15, 2004, 01:15 PM
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/bestdelta2.jpg

Deltas are nice. Custom Deltas are nicer. :D

But unless you find a smokin' deal on a Delta, the most gun/least money route for a 10mm 1911 is probalby to find a pre-Series II Kimber in .40 S&W and have it converted to 10mm, though. They aren't that common, but they aren't that in demand, either, so the prices tend to be reasonable, and the conversion is so simple & cheap that even if you had somebody like Ted Yost do it you could wind up cheaper than one of the new Kimber Stainless Target II 10mm or DW Razorback if you got a good deal on the base gun.

gunfan
January 16, 2004, 02:27 AM
I would look into a Bar-Sto Match barrel and bushing setup for accuracy! the boys a 29 Palms ave been at it for over 40 years!

This sounds like a plan to me!

Scott :D

WonderNine
January 16, 2004, 06:08 AM
What spring weight do you now use on that .40 to 10mm Kimber?

And why ream the barrel out? Why not just get a 10mm barrel?

Hal
January 16, 2004, 07:32 AM
And why ream the barrel out? Probably to preserve Kimber's excellent fit of the locking lugs on the barrel.

stans
January 16, 2004, 07:40 AM
And why ream the barrel out?

Reaming the chamber is much cheaper than a new barrel. If you are never going to fire 40 S&W again, reaming is ok, except that "40 S&W" will still be stamped on the barrel. If you sell the gun, someone might see that and chamber some 40 ammo. The gun won't blow up, but ignition will be inconsistant, constant use of the shorter ammo will erode the chamber and accuracy is likely to be poor

pogo2
January 16, 2004, 08:34 AM
I bought a lightly used Colt Delta Gold Cup in stainless about 3 years ago for $800, and it has been a perfect performer for me. I had a trigger job done to bring the trigger down to 4 lbs (it was about 6 lbs when I got it). The recoil feels "different" than with a similar .45 caliber colt, but is certainly not excessive. I would say the gun is very reliable and accurate, and has never failed to fire, feed or eject. I only wish the 10mm ammo didn't cost so much more than .45 ACP.

In general, I feel the 10mm is superior to the .45 ACP from a ballistic standpoint.

WonderNine
January 16, 2004, 12:53 PM
Bren, what lbs. spring do you use?

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