M&P 9 FS - thumb safety or no thumb safety?


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oboe
May 20, 2011, 11:17 AM
Please let me have your thoughts on this: My buy will be a S&W M&P9 full-size 4.25" barrel. Should I get it WITH a thumb safety or WITHOUT a thumb safety? Whatever your preference or advice, what is your reasoning?

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youngda9
May 20, 2011, 12:02 PM
Without thumb safety. The best safety is between your ears. Are you willing to practice your draw hundreds and hundreds of times so that flipping off the safety becomes second nature should you need to use the gun for SD? Are you confident that under a stressful situation that you would flip it off?

My M&Ps have no external safety, no magazine safety, and no lock. All three are things that are unnecessary and just more mechanical things that could fail.

Follow the 4 rules and all is well.

gbelleh
May 20, 2011, 12:17 PM
Definitely without. I wouldn't want the ILS or mag safety either. That's how my M&P 40c is set up. Of course, it's really up to you. You may like those features. I'm glad S&W gives us the choice.

Hangingrock
May 20, 2011, 12:43 PM
Preference is with out the thumb safety that’s me. Not mentioned is the optional magazine disconnect which I prefer. Multitudes would disagree with that preference. Since you are the end user your preferences count and not mine.

AZ Five seveN
May 20, 2011, 03:56 PM
Your brain and your trigger finger are the only safeties you need!

jhb
May 20, 2011, 05:39 PM
if you learned/trained with a safety like a 1911, then yes get it. if you haven't and started with say glocks, then no.

i disagree with other's here. having too many safeties besides your mind and trigger finger is not a bad thing. it's all in how you train, and what you train with. i do find those who started on glocks tend to forget to check for safeties when trying to shoot a 1911 or other safety type design. which could cause an issue in a self defense situation, if not carrying a glock, etc. whereas those who started on a hi-power, 1911, etc tend to not have issues shooting a glock type quickly and safetly as well as a safety pistol. ymmv of course, everyone is diffferent.

although having said that the ultimate safety is not pulling the trigger, and hence even when training with a safety, never use it as a failsafe, period. it's mechanical and could fail or you could switch to a glock and have already set yourself up for a bad habit.

i don't own an m&p yet, but i played with a couple at my local store and the safety isn't hard and firm/secure feeling like my hi-power or 1911 or cz75 and 85 combat, it was effortless....so much so i thought why even have it as it could get clicked off without even realizing it. having said that if i buy an m&p i will get one with the thumbsafety, cause i like safeties and have trained with them.

doc.lonestar
May 20, 2011, 05:58 PM
I prefer the simple is best mindset. No thumbsafety.

catnphx
May 20, 2011, 06:32 PM
I've got 4 pistols and none of them have any type of a safety. Point and shoot is what I'm looking for and having to deal with safety doesn't fit into the equation for me. My safety are my brains and the finger off the trigger unless I'm ready to shoot.

leadcounsel
May 20, 2011, 06:57 PM
I'm comfortable with either. You aren't REQUIRED to use the thumb safety if it has it, and it gives you more options for instance, if you had to carry Mexican style briefly, or set it on a car seat, in a bag with no holster, etc.

I don't know about the internals of the MP series, but I would make sure both models (with and without external safety) has striker firing pin style blocks and a trigger disconnect, etc. as found in Glocks.

oboe
May 20, 2011, 09:06 PM
I have arrived at my decision. Here's my rationale:

My deer rifle had a thumb safety that was engaged until I was ready to shoot. My over/under shotgun also had a thumb safety on the tang that I was conditioned to slide off just as the gun was coming up for a shot - and in the woods and brush of Vermont, those shots had to be fast. Those guns were NOT carried in a holster, and there always was the possibility for an accidental discharge - meaning, other than when the weapon is intended to be in use for its specific purpose, hitting the game and bringing dinner home. An accidental discharge could harm or kill another hunter or innocent bystander.

That said, I am seeing a distict difference in this case. The pistol will be carried concealed IN A HOLSTER either IWB or OWB depending on clothing and circumstances at 3:30 more or less [never AIWB] for self defense. It will be in the holster for carry or in the hand when it's needed for its intended purpose - self defense. In the holster, the internal safety devices simply do not allow the gun to discharge, because that would require the trigger to be pulled completely back. In my hand for self defense a thumb safety is one more thing that just might mess up my presentation and firing of the pistol - scary, considering the need would be to stop a BG and save my own life or the life of another innocent person. Also, some good stuff than can be done to the inyards of an M&P would be curtailed in part in the TS version. Therefore, I have just convinced myself that it is in my own best interests to get the M&P9 FS WITHOUT the TS. Thanks for all of your input. It has been thought provoking and helped get me to my conclusion.

If anyone can show a clear and distinct desirable physical result of having the thumb safety [other than rule or regulation] I'm more than willing to open myself up to further consideration. I've just never heard of one that would not be accomplished just as well by the shooter

Ala Tom
May 20, 2011, 09:13 PM
Here's another thought on it. I like a magazine safety and no other. As I sit in my living room, my MP40 is handy and almost ready to fire. There is a round in the chamber and a full magazine in the computer case (my range bag) next to the gun (and next to my chair). As it is, the gun is safe if anyone picks it up. To use the gun all I have to do is put in the magazine and fire. That does not seem too tough for me to do and I don't think I'm likely to screw it up.

I like one level of safety on a gun left briefly unattended (out of sight) in the house. I do not intend to carry a gun constantly in my house yet it is important to always be ready for the BG's who can enter a house any time of the day, not just at night.

I think a straight index finger is equivalent to a thumb safety, maybe better. Any time I pick up the gun, my index finger is straight and stays out of the trigger guard. It rests above the trigger and outside the guard until I need to fire.

But that is in a house with no one under 43. Next week 11 year-old granddaughter visits. The situation may be modified.

REAPER4206969
May 20, 2011, 09:26 PM
A safety on this type of firearm is idiotic.

catnphx
May 20, 2011, 11:02 PM
Oboe - congrats on making an informed and conscious decision ... well done on the approach.

One other thing I forgot to mention in my post above was the more gadgets you have the more that can go wrong. I like simple in my guns ... point and shoot with as few moving or potentially interupting parts as possible.

leadcounsel
May 20, 2011, 11:26 PM
I don't like magazine disconnect safeties. I see this as the only common safety that could cause you to choke - imagine in the heat of the moment your thumb accidently touches the mag release and the mag slides ever-so-slightly out of battery. Or in a struggle with the BG, the mag is jarred free.

gbelleh
May 21, 2011, 12:08 AM
I agree. There are many reasons I wouldn't want my gun completely disabled by simply pressing the magazine release.

The less things that can turn my gun into a paperweight, the better.

oboe
May 21, 2011, 05:10 PM
Here is a post on Pistol Training Forum by an experienced person whose nom de plume is DocGKR, and your input on it will be appreciated:

"Imagine being mugged, hit over the head, and stunned; bad guy pulls out your pistol, but does not remove safety and so pistol fails to go off as he sits there squeezing the trigger...I personally saw this happen to someone.

You are at home and set your pistol down for a brief moment as you begin to change and your child who was hiding reaches up and grabs it....I personally have seen this occur once as well.

You are carrying IWB and your jacket zipper catches on the trigger as your attention wonders a brief second while re-holstering after a stressful encounter--boom...I have seen this happen to someone as well. This can be particularly tragic with AIWB..., [when a zipper catches on a trigger]"

TestPilot
May 21, 2011, 05:17 PM
No manual firing inhibit device on pistols for me.

I want focus on threat assessment, shooting, etc. I don't need another decision making process of whether if I should take the firing inhibit mode on or off, and another process of when I should get it on or off.

There is also a risk of it being on when I think it is off or off when I think it is on because the lever came in contact with an object during maneuver or physical contact with an opponent.

Also, I need a good firing grip when I need to shoot. I don't want the base of my trigger hand thumb to wipe something up or down right before I need a good firing grip.

What if you can barely move your thumb because you just blocked a blow from a blunt force weapon or your hand hit a ground when you fell, and you need to shoot NOW.

catnphx
May 21, 2011, 05:32 PM
I'm sure there are more examples/situations that we could apply where a safety would be the "savior" but they are the rare exception and not the rule. We could play "what if" all day long but the bottom line is being careless is the issue and a safety can't cure that.

Imagine being mugged, hit over the head, and stunned; bad guy pulls out your pistol, but does not remove safety and so pistol fails to go off as he sits there squeezing the trigger...I personally saw this happen to someone.

Anything can happen but this would be rare. So he puts the gun down and continues to beat you to death. If you are that stunned that he can take your gun away from you then you are in trouble period.


You are at home and set your pistol down for a brief moment as you begin to change and your child who was hiding reaches up and grabs it....I personally have seen this occur once as well.

Shame on the person for doing this. Being careless is an issue but a safety isn't going to solve the issue. A kid can easily flip off a safety and will probably press every "button" on the gun until something happens.

You are carrying IWB and your jacket zipper catches on the trigger as your attention wonders a brief second while re-holstering after a stressful encounter--boom...I have seen this happen to someone as well. This can be particularly tragic with AIWB..., [when a zipper catches on a trigger

LOL ... sorry, but again anything can happen if you are going to be careless. Someone who is going to be careless and handle a gun like this should not have a gun.

TestPilot
May 21, 2011, 05:51 PM
Quote:
Imagine being mugged, hit over the head, and stunned; bad guy pulls out your pistol, but does not remove safety and so pistol fails to go off as he sits there squeezing the trigger...I personally saw this happen to someone.

Anything can happen but this would be rare. So he puts the gun down and continues to beat you to death. If you are that stunned that he can take your gun away from you then you are in trouble period.

Agreed.

Not to mention...

"Next time, remember to take off the safety."
One of the most over used B-class action movie cliche.

I don't increase my risk by making my shooting process more complicated in the hope that it might may benefit me when my opponent is dumb.

As a kid, I knew how to "off safe" M16, M1911, S&W 3rd Gen, Beretta, USP, .....and I even know that I need to sqeeze cock a P7. My father was anti gun, and I had no formal training of any kind what so ever at the time, and I have never touched or even seen those guns at the time.

Chuck Perry
May 21, 2011, 07:51 PM
Are you going to have trigger work done to it? I read up on the M&P prior to getting one. Based on what I read about the trigger, I planned to have work done on mine, so I purchased the thumb safety model. My pistol has a 4#, single action like trigger now. I am more comfortable working with the gun with a thumb safety with a trigger like that. Just a little added safety when holstering and what not. If you leave it with the stock trigger, then I see no real reason for the thumb safety other than the reasons already stated.

mingo
May 21, 2011, 08:43 PM
Mine has no safety devices to fail at the worst time. I'm leaving it original the way it was ment to be. The very reason I buy new semi-auto hanguns is that I don't want other peoples so called fixes or changes. The trigger is just fine the way it is.

mingo

jon_in_wv
May 21, 2011, 08:53 PM
When I buy a replacement for my M&P 9C I may opt for one with a safety. Ease of operation also applies to the guy who manages to snatch my weapon away from me. I've never forgotten to take a 1911, or my HP, or other weapons I train with off safe. I don't think I'd start forgetting with my carry gun I train 500% more with.

mljdeckard
May 21, 2011, 09:03 PM
I'm frankly baffled at all those here who seem to think that they won't remember how to work a safety when they need to. How do you train?

dbro822
May 21, 2011, 10:52 PM
I have one with no safety, I looked at both and found the position of the thumb safety was not in a good spot for my hand, it dug in and was quite painfull while shooting. If the gun fits your hand with the safety and you feel the need for it enjoy, the full size is a nice gun, I am much happier with the M@P over the glock I traded in for the smith.

The Lone Haranguer
May 22, 2011, 09:13 AM
A thumb safety is superfluous on a DAO pistol, but it might have some use for weapon retention (attacker taking the gun away, assuming the safety was on when grabbed). My personal preference would be to not have one. If you do choose it, train with it so operation of the safety becomes instinctive and automatic.

jon_in_wv
May 22, 2011, 10:44 AM
The safety could be seen as superfluous on a 1911 too. With the grip safety and other safeties it has. The M&P is NOT a double action only. In fact the trigger pull, minus a very light take up, it is barely longer than that of the 1911. The trigger safety and the take up does give a measure of safety over a pure SAO so I don't feel a safety is necessary on the M&P but I'm picky about what holster I would carry it in too. I think a kydex or well formed stiff holster is a must without a manual safety.

Kevinch
May 22, 2011, 12:48 PM
My 4.25" 9MM has the safety. To be completely honest, it was the only model on the show table when I bought it. I don't know that I'll carry this weapon, but if I decide to the safety operation is the same as the 1911 .45s that I do carry. As there is no grip safety, I (personally) am glad I bought the model I did.

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