CCW/Carry: Best example to tell an Anti-Gunner - Road Rage


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usmarine0352_2005
May 20, 2011, 04:44 PM
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I think most of us who CCW/Open Carry do it for mainly one reason: Because you never know what could happen and you want to be prepared to protect your life or someone else's.



However, when you tell someone who is anti-gun or someone who is asking about CCW/Open Carry you tell them this and they go, "O, Woodbury, that's such a safe place, no crime happens there, you don't need to carry a gun there."


Well, it may in fact be a low violent crime rate area, but that doesn't mean things don't or can't happen there.



Still, they go on with how it's not necessary.




Well, I found the best answer IMHO to explain CCW/Open Carry to someone who doesn't do it:


"ROAD RAGE"




Simply put, Road Rage can happen anywhere and anytime, and most likely everyone who has ever driven or been in a car has seen it or had it happen to them. They realize that it is in fact quite a distinct possibly that it could happen to them or someone they know because they've seen it first hand.


Tell them this, imagine you are in driving along peacefully and all of a sudden someone is tailgating everyone and driving unsafely, swerving in and out of the lanes. He appears to be waving his fist at people and cursing. He looks very intimidating. All of a sudden he gets behind you and starts pushing/tailgating you. Well, you can't move over to the slow lane because there are other cars there. This driver is getting aggressive and honking his horn and waiving his fist. Now you pull up to a stop light and cross-traffic is going with their light, so you can't drive forward or go in reverse. You think to yourself, "Is this really happening? This guy is really scaring me, is he a killer, murderer? Is he on drugs? Is he high or drunk?" You look back and the angry driver behind you has gotten out of his car and he is walking to your driver side window with a tire iron in his hand extremely irate and angry........what do you do? Would you want a gun to protect yourself or a cellphone? What do you do if you have your children in your car? Because if it was just yourself you could perhaps open your door and run away, but most good parents wouldn't want to run from there car leaving their children unprotected and in harms way.



I think "Road Rage" is a great example because it is more realistically possible in many people's minds that it could happen to them rather then a random act of violence because most people have been a victim of or have seen road rage firsthand and they can relate.


I bet that anyone who posts has an experience with road rage.


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wgp
May 20, 2011, 05:12 PM
I have a rule: if I believe a place to be so dangerous that I would not go there without a gun, I simply don't go there. BUT, I CCW because no one knows where random (random, get it?) violence will occur, but we do know that it does occur.

I believe that people who use the "it's safe here, you don't need a gun" argument are simply unwilling to carry and rationalize their way around it. Ask them whether they used their seat belt when they drove to the place where is was so safe -- surely they did not expect to be in a wreck, did they?

usmarine0352_2005
May 20, 2011, 05:33 PM
I have a rule: if I believe a place to be so dangerous that I would not go there without a gun, I simply don't go there. BUT, I CCW because no one knows where random (random, get it?) violence will occur, but we do know that it does occur.

I believe that people who use the "it's safe here, you don't need a gun" argument are simply unwilling to carry and rationalize their way around it. Ask them whether they used their seat belt when they drove to the place where is was so safe -- surely they did not expect to be in a wreck, did they?




Well, I'm saying that could be anywhere. But I would agree that some places are far more dangerous then others.




Sometimes you have to go to dangerous places. I am a police officer and sometimes I need to go to my city of work off-duty. Even walking from where I park my car to my precinct I have an off-duty gun on me. (I leave my duty gun locked in my locker at work.)




The seatbelt analogy is ok, but carrying a gun and wearing a seatbelt are far different things. There is a far different mentality that comes with safely carrying a gun or even owning a gun.



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Tim the student
May 20, 2011, 09:56 PM
Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."

usmarine0352_2005
May 20, 2011, 10:18 PM
Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."


Perhaps, but not all anti's are hardcore.



It might persuade a fence-sitter and anti.


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Standing Wolf
May 20, 2011, 10:35 PM
The only safe places are those that aren't accessible by people in purchased, stolen, rented, or borrowed cars. I don't mean to say everywhere is unsafe, nor that some places aren't safer than others; I do, however, mean to say counting on a place always to be safe isn't realistic.

Ultimately, it's not places that are safe or unsafe, but individual people.

usmarine0352_2005
May 21, 2011, 02:27 AM
Maybe it will work for a fence sitter, but I doubt it will work at all with an anti.

The anti will just counter with "What if the road rager has a gun? How many people would he kill? That is exactly why no one should be allowed to carry a gun."



I would counter with, "Well, if he has a gun, then I definitely want a gun."




Just like if a robber has a gun or a burglar, I'd rather have a gun too.





The bad guys already have guns, illegally, that's why citizen's need to carry, to protect themselves.




Saying, "Because the bad guys have guns, we shouldn't." is a pretty poor example.


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medalguy
May 21, 2011, 05:39 PM
If they say the incidence of crime somewhere is very low, respond by asking how low? Zero? Some? How much? Do you want to be able to protect yourself from that one in a million incident or not?

usmarine0352_2005
May 21, 2011, 05:45 PM
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If they say the incidence of crime somewhere is very low, respond by asking how low? Zero? Some? How much? Do you want to be able to protect yourself from that one in a million incident or not?


Good point medalguy.




A may only be 1%, but that 1% will mean a lot if your the one affected.


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Larry Ashcraft
May 21, 2011, 06:00 PM
As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

Neverwinter
May 21, 2011, 06:12 PM
As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
The stakes also include the cost of preparing for an event which doesn't happen. There are some preventative measures which are so costly, they aren't worth it. Like a Type III vest on an ordinary civilian.

Larry Ashcraft
May 21, 2011, 07:26 PM
The stakes also include the cost of preparing for an event which doesn't happen.
No, the stakes are what you stand to lose if you are ill-prepared for an emergency. Granted, you can't be prepared for every emergency, and the chances of your needing a weapon are pretty small, but going armed and trained is fairly cheap insurance against the unlikely.

As far as the cost (in money) of owning guns and being prepared, I guess that never occurred to me.

jonmerritt
May 22, 2011, 08:14 AM
I would just reason with him as he caved in my skull (anti-gunner)

Kevinch
May 22, 2011, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure - are there any states that consider carrying a loaded firearm in the passenger compartment of an automobile "open" carry? To my knowledge, this is always considered CCW carry & requires a permit except for states that don't require a permit for CCW.

That said - I agree with wgp. If I think there will be trouble, I won't go there. I carry to be prepared for a situation that I haven't predicted.

Sort of like auto insurance. If I know, beyond any doubt, I'll be in an accident if I take the car out, I'm not going out. The insurance is there for the unexpected.

Larry Ashcraft
May 22, 2011, 01:14 PM
are there any states that consider carrying a loaded firearm in the passenger compartment of an automobile "open" carry?
In Colorado, your vehicle is considered an extension of your home, and you may keep a loaded, concealed weapon in there without a permit.

Ramone
May 22, 2011, 01:25 PM
Florida, as well, and VA has (IIRC) recently allowed 'console or glovebox carry'

junebug
May 22, 2011, 01:31 PM
I have carried for 30 plus years and only needed it once ,but that once saved my life and possibly the life of a grandson. I don't carry because I expect trouble but for the unexpected. I was working with cattle,trying to catch a calf to doctor.The bull was hand raised but had been showing a bit of mean for awhile and hit the 4 wheeler as we went by. I got off to catch the calf and the bull walked into the picture,so I ran him off [should have used a bigger club] Concentrating on the calf and job at hand I saw the bull circled back and turned to face him again to move him off. He charged from close range and caught me in the ribs then got on top and proceeded to stomp my ass. I still have no idea when I drew the pistol it was just there . It took 6 rounds and my grandson running up his ass with the 4 wheeler to get him off, 16 years old and never hesitated a bit when grandpa was down and needed him. THATS WHY I CARRY,
FOR THE UNEXPECTED,[ I was responsible for his safetey] ,and he had to save me.

usmarine0352_2005
June 16, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Perfect example right here.


Even the rich and famous aren't always shielded from crime. Especially road rage.




http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/06/16/pittsburgh-pirates-player-helpless-as-man-attacks-wife-in-traffic-dispute/?test=latestnews



Pittsburgh Pirates Player Helpless as Man Attacks Wife in Traffic Dispute

Published June 16, 2011

| Associated Press
PITTSBURGH -- Pittsburgh police say a man attacked the wife of Pirates catcher Chris Snyder in a traffic dispute while Snyder sat in the car, unable to get out because he'd had back surgery.





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RedLyons
June 16, 2011, 07:10 PM
I live in a safe neighborhood, but I still have locks on the doors.
I don't expect my house to burn down, but I still have insurance.
I don't expect to be in a car wreck, but I still wear my seat belt.
I don't expect to loose my job, but I have savings just in case.
I don't expect anything to happen to my young children, but I still keep an eye on them.
I don't expect to die early, but I have life insurance.
I don't expect my computer to break, but I backup my important files.

I don't expect anyone to threaten my life, but I'm prepared for that too.

hermannr
June 16, 2011, 07:58 PM
I have experienced road-rage two times in my life. First time was about 35 or 40 years ago. Two lane road... This guy was driving so crazy I just pulled off the road to let him go by. Well, instead of going by, he pulled up behind me and came raging out of his jeep, grabbed my door handle and jerked my door open started to reach into my car....and then he suddenly changed his mind, cooled off and went on his way. Amazing how fast facing the business end of a Colt can cool a hothead. How does that saying go? Never bring a knife to a gun fight?

The second time I was on the freeway, not in town. This guy was 3/4 the way out his SUV's drivers window trying to hit my car with a monkey wrench, all the while yelling and screaming something? at me. On that one, I just changed lanes and put a couple cars between his car and mine. My backup stayed in the holster.

In neither case was I aware of what I was supposed to have done to cause such rage on their part. I am generally a cautious driver, one accident (the other guy left turned into me) and one ticket (speeding, trying to get away from a crazy driver) in the last 30 years. We won't talk about when I was young...:what:

Dstoerm
June 16, 2011, 09:34 PM
Dont even think of pulling your firearm in a 'road rage' situation unless you are going to fire your weapon at the assailant.


Don't pull it to 'defuse the situation'. Don't pull it to warn the assailant off. Don't show your firearm to 'be prepared for what might come next'. Don't have the weapon in plain sight so that the assailant 'gets the message' in hopes that he backs off.

In most states if you pull your weapon and show it to the road-rage assailant and then you don't pull the trigger you WILL be charged with aggravated assault, unless you can PROVE that the 'road-rager' is already pointing his weapon at you.

Ask me how I know - a person very close to me lost his gun rights over a road rage incident where he simply showed the oncoming attacker that he was in posession of a firearm... never pointed it, never threatened to shoot. Be VERY careful in these situations. If you pull your firearm you MUST feel that you are in danger of losing your life and you must pull the trigger.

The law is not very kind to people who 'pull to prevent or defuse' a bad outcome.

Apocalypse-Now
June 16, 2011, 11:05 PM
As Lee Lapin says, It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

yep.


if someone is threatening you with a deadly weapon, such as a tire iron, i assume your local ccw/deadly force laws would apply. not sure why there would be any question about it.....:confused:

Dstoerm
June 17, 2011, 12:28 AM
You are correct. If someone is threatening you with a weapon such as a tire iron then your local/state laws will apply. Most local/state laws will allow you to use deadly force to protect your life.

But, the courts will ask the question as to why you felt so threatened that you pulled your weapon to defend your life, but yet you did not feel threatened enough to pull the trigger. These cases have been litigated to the point that the DAs know that a CCH/CCW holder pulling a weapon without firing will almost always end up with the good guy facing some type of charges, unless the police find you holding the suspect for pending arrest. You cannot simply show your force (firearm) and then scare the offender off and walk away - many people, even DUMB convicted felons will call the police on YOU.

There exists such a legal position as a 'good shoot' or 'good shooting' when the victim defends his/her life with deadly force. There exists no legal precedent for a 'Good pointing of weapon' or more to the legal point a 'Good Brandishing'.

If you are indeed faced with a fight/defend or die situation then the choice is easy, and one you are fully prepared for and legally able to defend - it is the stakes, not the odds or the law after all - it is YOUR LIFE.

There are very few situations where a 'brandish to defuse' or 'brandish to protect' will ever be legally defendable, unless as stated, you are holding the other party (assailant) with WITNESSES for pending arrest by LEO. In the eyes of the court if you are stating that you were so afraid for your life that you were forced to draw your weapon, then in the court's view you must certainly have been afraid enough to pull the trigger. I realize that this is a totally warped view, and it is CERTAINLY NOT MY PERSONAL VIEW, but it is the reality in many handgun cases litigated every day.

If I were indeed truly afraid for my life in a road-rage case or any other situation I would choose to defend both myself, my family or any other party in harms way. I am just stating the legal precedent as it exists today in many right to carry states: If you pull it you better damn well be prepared to pull the trigger or face a felony action.

armoredman
June 17, 2011, 12:35 AM
If you pull your firearm you MUST feel that you are in danger of losing your life and you must pull the trigger.

Nope. Not here.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force....

We have the lawfully recognized right to display our firearm to defuse the situation, such as done potentially millions of times a year, according to Criminologist Gary Kleck's research, so I have to say, nope, not in AZ. I will do what I can legally do to de-escalate the situation, even if it come to lawfully displaying that I have the ability to utilize deadly force in self defense. I just do my best to avoid the whole situation, if I can. One road rage incident YEARS ago, able to turn away without the other being able to make the turn.

I_like_Guns
June 17, 2011, 04:55 AM
I use economic game theory and draw them a decision matrix to show them why being armed is the optimal strategy.

pockets
June 17, 2011, 08:35 AM
An off-the-wall 'road rage' incident was what prompted me to get my CHL.

Another factor is that any 'safe neighborhood' has streets running through it.
Just this week my extremely quiet/safe neighborhood had two different police chases in it;
One involved two guys shooting at policemen near a nightclub, then being chased past my house, ending with the suspects crashing a mile down the road and both dying.
The next night, a guy robs a store, 130mph chase down one freeway, across another, up another (completely encircling my area), then the chase went right into my neighborhood and ended with the suspect apprehended on foot a couple blocks from my front door....so much for my nice/safe neighborhood.

One never knows.
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goon
June 17, 2011, 04:32 PM
As far as the cost (in money) of owning guns and being prepared, I guess that never occurred to me.

At least for me, there really isn't a cost involved with owning guns for preparedness/defensive reasons. I like guns. I spend money on them and will always own them anyhow. They are money spent mostly for enjoyment/recreation, but with added defensive benefits that come along for free.
The only cost for me really is the cost of my CCW permit, which is something like $25 for five years. I'd prefer not to need a permit, but $5 per year to carry legally and have peace of mind is worth it.

usmarine0352_2005
June 17, 2011, 06:27 PM
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Here is an example that happened today where if the victim had a gun he might not have been assaulted. It also doesn't mean he has to shoot his assailant.


Luckily the assailant didn't attempt to run down the victim as happened earlier this year in MN.



http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/06/17/pedestrian-punched-in-intersection-rage-incident/




Pedestrian Punched In Intersection Rage Incident

June 17, 2011 3:12 PM

ST. PAUL (WCCO) – Police are investigating after a pedestrian was attacked in an apparent road rage incident in St. Paul.

Police said the incident happened at the corner of Selby and Lexington on Thursday evening.

A driver was blocking the crosswalk and a pedestrian knocked on the driver’s window, yelling at him that he was in the way.

Police said the driver then got out of his black Ford Edge vehicle, chased the pedestrian, punched him and knocked him down. Witnesses saw the man punch the pedestrian a few more times before getting back into his vehicle and leaving.

The pedestrian had a swollen lip after the attack. Police did not say if he sustained further injuries.

There were several children in the car at the time of the incident. The vehicle had red dealer plates.

The suspect was described as a man around 40 years old, measuring just under 6 feet with short reddish-blonde hair.


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orionengnr
June 17, 2011, 09:01 PM
I'm not sure - are there any states that consider carrying a loaded firearm in the passenger compartment of an automobile "open" carry? To my knowledge, this is always considered CCW carry & requires a permit except for states that don't require a permit for CCW.

Texas. :)

Travis McGee
June 17, 2011, 11:52 PM
Don't tell, don't justify. Keep it a secret among your close gunnie friends.

usmarine0352_2005
August 5, 2011, 06:50 PM
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Luckily Wisconsinites will be able to CCW soon. Sadly it was too late for these poor folks today.



http://www.wisn.com/r/28774396/detail.html#.Tjv6fFOSies.facebook



Police Investigate Multiple Beatings Near State Fair Park

Several Law Enforcement Agencies Responded To Area Late Thursday Night



Police said the group of young people attacked fair goers who were leaving the fair grounds. Police said that some victims were attacked while walking. They said others were pulled out of cars and off of motorcycles before being beaten



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chhodge69
August 5, 2011, 07:12 PM
I avoid any specifics because it just opens the door to a counter argument. My go-to line for anti-gunners is some variation of:

'You're right, I don't need a gun all the time. I've been carrying for years and I've never needed it yet. I'm just not smart enough to predict when exactly I will need it, so I carry one all the time.'

Iramo94
August 5, 2011, 07:40 PM
I live in a safe neighborhood, but I still have locks on the doors.
I don't expect my house to burn down, but I still have insurance.
I don't expect to be in a car wreck, but I still wear my seat belt.
I don't expect to loose my job, but I have savings just in case.
I don't expect anything to happen to my young children, but I still keep an eye on them.
I don't expect to die early, but I have life insurance.
I don't expect my computer to break, but I backup my important files.

I don't expect anyone to threaten my life, but I'm prepared for that too.

I'd like permission to copy-pasta that in a response to a friend who is a stout anti. Awesome statement.
------------------------------------
Back on topic: I find it best to deal with tailgaters and road ragers by simply letting off the gas. If I'm on a surface road with no minimum speed, I'll coast down to fifteen or less to get them to pass. The best gun related encounter is no encounter. My $0.02

Maple_City_Woodsman
August 5, 2011, 08:20 PM
A good deal of crime happens in "nice" areas, because that is where all the good stuff is.

A LOT of property crime - vandalism, burglary, B&E, ect.

Rest assured, that the shadowy corners of every golden facade hold a few thugs looking to make a buck.

usmarine0352_2005
October 20, 2011, 12:05 PM
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Here's a perfect example. The off-duty officers although probably armed did the right thing, which is get the cars license plate number and call 911 letting uniformed officers handle the situation.



It could have happened differently and if the bad guy had rammed someone off the road or gotten out of his car with his gun, a civilian who wasn't armed could have been in a lot of trouble. Or the deputies could have been in trouble if he had done either of these to them and they weren't armed. (Many cops do not carry off-duty.)




http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/10/19/man-accused-of-directing-road-rage-gun-at-off-duty-deputies/?utm_source=home&utm_medium=dl&utm_campaign=road-rage-directed-at-deputies



Authorities: Man Directed Road Rage At Off-Duty Deputies

October 19, 2011 10:49 PM


ALEXANDRIA (WCCO) — A moment of road rage backfired on a western Minnesota man when he allegedly directed his anger at two off-duty sheriff’s deputies.

“All of the sudden, he displayed a hand gun that they could clearly see,” said Brejcha.

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hso
October 20, 2011, 01:59 PM
Nope and it makes you sound like you're engaging in fantasy to "excuse" your "need" to carry a gun.

The proper response to an erratic driver is to get off the road and let them go on their way. Call the cops, give them the description of the vehicle and plates (if possible).

You're not going to sell someone that doesn't carry using road rage as an example.

OTOH, you have a perfectly good answer when pointing out that low crime rates don't mean NO crime. Just like low residential fire rates don't mean no fires or low accident rates don't mean no accidents. A responsible person acknowledges that fires and accidents do occur, take measures to mitigate the potential and severity of the fire or accident and, as a last resort, put together the equipment and get the training to deal with them when all the measures taken to prevent them fail. Same with the personal safety issue of defense. We do what we can to prevent encountering someone face to face that threatens our safety, but we make sure that we can respond productively if those measures fail.

SARDiver
October 21, 2011, 12:42 AM
I think it's bad advice to say that when you pull, you must shoot. Terrible advice, actually, both morally and legally.

If I am in fear of losing my life enough to draw a handgun, I do so to make the threat stop.

If I have pulled a weapon and my assailant(s) stop the action that is causing me to fear for my life, the weapon has served its purpose. If I display it MERELY to scare them, that's a problem. I won't be the least bit concerned if I pull a weapon and end up NOT having to pull the trigger. In fact, if I go ahead and shoot, even if the threat to life has ended, I would end up in far worse trouble.

ShawnC
October 21, 2011, 02:16 AM
You CCW guys are all paranoid scaredycats. It's ridiculous to carry a gun with you everyday...
I only carry on days I know I'm going to be robbed... :rolleyes:

doc2rn
October 21, 2011, 02:34 AM
I was attacked by a TSA agent and his father out in the middle of nowhere Ohio back in '09. He was doin 30 in a 45 and the lady in the Mercedes SUV behind me kept honking. He thought it was me (horn didnt work on my car), and proceeded to try and pull me out until I pulled my glove box gun and placed it on the passenger seat. He tried to work it up with local LEO, to bad for him I called 911 the moment he tried to open my door.

Long story short, he got a $600 road rage ticket and mandatory anger management class, SUV lady also called 911 on him so I was cleared. Still didnt block me from having to hire an attorney at $150/hr.

If I had to do it again I probably would just shoot him for the aggrevation. Too bad I had to be the bigger man.:cool: (LEO advised the same)

It can happen anywhere and anytime.

heeler
October 21, 2011, 02:51 PM
If I recall correctly one of the first legal shoots with a Texas CHL holder after the law went into effect was behind a road rage issue with the the person getting shot stupidly punching the seated CHL holder.
And since we are on the subject of road rage I got a first hand look at it on the freeway just this past Monday coming home from work between a guy in a Dodge Caliber and another in a Tacoma pickup.
These idiots put several people in potential danger with their silly antics.

usmarine0352_2005
October 21, 2011, 03:09 PM
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My dad's uncle who was in his early 80's told me a story a few Christmas's ago. He said he was driving home and saw a road rage incident. He said the victim slowed down and wen tot teh right lane but the suspect kept following him. He said the victim an elderly man then pulled over to the shoulder. He said the suspect then got out, went to the victim's car, pulled him out and started punching him repeatedly.

My dad's uncle said if he could have done something he would have had he been a younger man. In the end the elderly victim was left unconcious on the ground and my dad's uncle had called 911 and an ambulance. The suspect fled.


With a permit to carry and a pistol he might have been able to stop the brutal assault.
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Azaraith
October 21, 2011, 08:13 PM
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Here is an example that happened today where if the victim had a gun he might not have been assaulted. It also doesn't mean he has to shoot his assailant.


Luckily the assailant didn't attempt to run down the victim as happened earlier this year in MN.



http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/0...rage-incident/


Quote:

Pedestrian Punched In Intersection Rage Incident

June 17, 2011 3:12 PM

ST. PAUL (WCCO) – Police are investigating after a pedestrian was attacked in an apparent road rage incident in St. Paul.

Police said the incident happened at the corner of Selby and Lexington on Thursday evening.

A driver was blocking the crosswalk and a pedestrian knocked on the driver’s window, yelling at him that he was in the way.

Police said the driver then got out of his black Ford Edge vehicle, chased the pedestrian, punched him and knocked him down. Witnesses saw the man punch the pedestrian a few more times before getting back into his vehicle and leaving.

The pedestrian had a swollen lip after the attack. Police did not say if he sustained further injuries.

There were several children in the car at the time of the incident. The vehicle had red dealer plates.

The suspect was described as a man around 40 years old, measuring just under 6 feet with short reddish-blonde hair.

The pedestrian was being a bit of a jerk there - just walk around, no need to yell at someone for "getting in the way" when it only takes you an extra 3-4 seconds to walk around...

asia331
October 22, 2011, 02:49 AM
You know in response to an anti who insists that you don't need to carry you could always reply"..you're probably right...nevertheless I choose not to bet my family's safety on a presumption...have a good day sir."

ChCx2744
October 22, 2011, 07:06 AM
Here's how I see it: Using that scenario against an anti is moot, IMO. They're just going to turn around and come up with more excuses (rational or not) until they *think* they're right, or you just give up out of frustration.

In reference to the scenario: If you're at a light and can't go forward, turn or reverse without endangering the lives of others, then the first thing you need to do is make sure all the doors are locked and windows are up. Assuming you don't have enough time to dial or call anyone, prepare for the worst; in this case the worst being him smashing your window and hitting you with the tool. If you're CCing, it should have already been drawn. Sneezing distance + the immediate threat of great bodily harm, death or great damage to immediate place of habitation has warranted deadly force. Given you can't turn or reverse, there's probably other people in traffic. A majority of the time, others are probably already on the phone with 911 explaining what's going on. Regardless, deal with the perp first and make the call yourself once you feel it's safe to do so. Hey, if someone wants to box you in and take advantage of you violently while your escape is impeded, I am sympathetic to those who are willing to use deadly force to defend themselves. Some may argue you have to let him crack your skull open first before defending yourself, but I respectfully disagree.

jonn5335
October 23, 2011, 01:36 AM
I carry because I live more in the country and often run in to people I know while fishing and have shooting competitions on the river to pass the time I also carry because I am a hunter and my pistol is legal for year round hunting yotes and other critters and then there is you never know when the zombies are coming

ExTank
October 23, 2011, 02:03 PM
Several years ago, I was coming north/east on Colorado 24 out of the 'Springs to pick up I-70 east for St. Louis. While passing through Calhan (IIRC) there was some road construction going on, shutting traffic down to one lane that alternated direction every few minutes, causing a bit of a traffic snarl. Some guy in a pickup apparently felt that waiting his turn like everyone else was not his thing, and tried to force his way (against on-coming traffic!) to the head of the line.

I was in a Jeep Cherokee at the time (God, why did I ever sell that truck???), and pulled out to block said "guy in pickup" (see, I'm observing THR guidelines by NOT calling him what eveyone knows he is).

"Guy in Pickup" goes slightly berserk, :cuss: but he has to wait like everyone else for their turn to go through the one-lane construction segment.

On the other side of the construction zone, "guy in pickup" pulls alongside me and pulled out a large-ish revolver and "flashed" it at me (not pointing it at me, but holding it up clearly for me to see, as if to say, "See what I got? Mess with me again and you'll get some of this!" I particularly recall the way his face was twisted/distorted with anger. :mad:

I smile cheeriliy and wave :D and show him my PT-92. (http://www.cybergun.com/media/210602web__044530600_1726_02022011.jpg)

"Guy in pickup" gets an :eek: look on his face, puts down his large-ish revolver :uhoh:, and meekly drives away. :o

And before anyone bags on my Taurus, I've put hundreds, maybe even into the thousands, of rounds through it with minimal fuss (except for one time when I got ahold of some really crappy MilSup ammo that probably got diverted off the back of a truck on its way to being disposed of/destroyed).

:( God, why did I trade that gun? :(

chhodge69
October 23, 2011, 02:40 PM
Road rage is a great example, but I prefer to steer the conversation away from specifics and toward principles. Hoplophobes tend to form their opinions based on fears, emotions and bad experiences. Stating any example of a problem you can solve with a gun only reinforces their "wild west" paradigm.

gym
October 23, 2011, 05:05 PM
Because we had 37 home invasions last month in Indian river and Palm Beach countys. Those people were home. They were't bothering anyone or going anyware. How do they account for that?

gunnutery
October 23, 2011, 05:31 PM
I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but a little while ago, I thought of another car related argument for CCW. It's based on trust though not fear. I've never used the example, so I'm not sure how good of one it is:

While driving down the road, people are pretty trusting of on-coming traffic. Unless you see someone swerving/weaving or generally just being stupid, people pay little mind to on-coming traffic just a few feet away. The people that shouldn't be driving eventually are found out and have their license taken away or have heavy fines as punishment. Not to say that such people don't drive, they do, but all the reason to be on YOUR game. But the majority of people that are passing you are trust worthy people and will stay in their lane. We prove they are trustworthy by eating/talking/adjusting the radio while obeying the laws and staying in OUR lane, just as we trust the other person will as well. The same is true for CCW permit holders, 99% of us obey the laws and mind our own business.

I dunno, it's not a perfected example, but it's something I've been thinking about.

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