Is it illegal for an FFL to shoot NIB firearms?


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gamestalker
May 20, 2011, 08:10 PM
I was in a well known chain sporting goods store the other day and took a look at a S&W 686 I was interested in purchasing. The first thing I saw was 2 very deep gouges on the left side just below the cylinder release. Also easily noticable was the firearm had wear and tear looking appearance that would look common for a handgun that has been carried in a holster every day for a long period of time. The front of the cylinder as well looked as though the piece had been fired a lot. Further inspection sealed the deal for me, which was the pressure cut in the frame that could have only resulted from long term use. I also checked the cylinder for any slop and it was loose in every direction. I know manufacturer's fire the guns before they box and ship them for sale, but this piece had been used, plain and simple.
My S&W 66 that has had at least 3,000 rounds put through it, and has been carried every day for about 6 years is in better condition both visually and functionally than this NIB 686 was. The clerk was grinning when I pointed out the obvious signs of this handgun having been carried and fired a bunch.
My question in this is, can an FFL just carry and shoot anything in their inventory and then put it back on the shelf as new? I live in Arizona so CCW's, gun registration or other relative restrictions wouldn't pose a risk to such an FFL being caught carrying or shooting something from their inventory.

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ceetee
May 20, 2011, 08:26 PM
Ethically? Of course not. In reality? I have no doubt that thousands of used guns are sold every year as "new" to people that may not be able to tell the difference.

dogtown tom
May 20, 2011, 09:38 PM
gamestalker: Is it illegal for an FFL to shoot NIB firearms?
No.

gamestalker: ....My question in this is, can an FFL just carry and shoot anything in their inventory and then put it back on the shelf as new?...
There is no Federal law that prohibits this, but I'm pretty sure there are numerous state laws that address deceptive trade practices, fraud and misrepresentation.

My question to you is: where was it described as NIB? Nothing in your OP says that the store claimed it was new or labeled it as such.

SlamFire1
May 20, 2011, 09:47 PM
If it has been shot outside of the factory, it is not new in the box.

Zoogster
May 20, 2011, 11:13 PM
Selling a product as brand new after using it extensively demonstrates a desire to lie to someone else for increased financial gain.
It could be considered a form of fraud, which is illegal.

It is also an unethical business practice to blatantly lie or intentionally mislabel something.


If the gun is in fact used, had a prior owner and was carried, and is being sold as a new gun by another owner that knowingly purchased it used, it would be a pretty blatant case of fraud.
Do keep in mind selling something as "like new" is quite different than selling it as new.

While unlikely to be pursued on an individual basis, a business owner that regularly does such things is likely to find themselves in some trouble at some point. A business is also rarely deceitful and dishonest to its customers in just one way, and one that engages in such things when they think they can get away with it probably is doing other shady things they think they can get away with.

pacerdude
May 20, 2011, 11:24 PM
It is not illegal, however it is in my opinion unethical, especially if it is marked as NIB. You could try contacting your local BBB.

JerryM
May 21, 2011, 12:25 PM
I agree that NIB means it has not been fired outside the factory tests. I suspect that there is some law defining NIB that means unfired.
I would not buy from such a dealer. Once fired it is a used gun.

Regards,
Jerry

mgmorden
May 21, 2011, 12:40 PM
As has been stated - are you sure that the item is marked as new? Particularly in a shop that carries both, just because the gun is near others that are new and has all the original box/paperwork doesn't mean it's new. Until it's sold the FFL is the owner of the firearm and they can shoot it if they want.

Also, though I'd expect a business person to be a little brighter, from my experience some people just don't understand what NEW means. I've read eBay adds before that read like "BRAND NEW! Used 2 times and decided that I didn't like it!".

Heck in much the same way when looking into buying a bicycle once I even saw one guy that described a bike as "Brand new" because he'd gotten it a few years ago only ridden it a few times :confused:. Upon examination just due to age and storage half the parts were rusted, the grips were deteriorated, etc. I'd wager that it would have taken $125-150 just to make this "brand new" bike even ridable again.

nazshooter
May 21, 2011, 12:57 PM
IMHO you should really report this to the store management. This doesn't sound like an FFL taking a few shots with a new gun. It sounds like someone swapped out their old worn out (maybe even stolen) for the new one.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Double Naught Spy
May 22, 2011, 09:27 AM
The OP asked 2 questions that are not the same...
Is it illegal for an FFL to shoot NIB firearms?
My question in this is, can an FFL just carry and shoot anything in their inventory and then put it back on the shelf as new? I live in Arizona so CCW's, gun registration or other relative restrictions wouldn't pose a risk to such an FFL being caught carrying or shooting something from their inventory.

Items may be sold as new, though they don't come with a box.

I agree that NIB means it has not been fired outside the factory tests. I suspect that there is some law defining NIB that means unfired.

So the location of testing determines NIB? Interesting.

I don't think there is a federal law defining NIB, at least not one I can recall after reading all that garbage several years ago. I don't recall any federal laws on grades of guns either.

NIB seems to be a topic-specific description. NIB in some pursuits means never having been out of the box, but with guns, simply means comes with the box, though the "new" aspect is in question here. In others, the "new" aspect means never having been sold from the seller to a buyer beyond being sold to the retailer.

Funny how we will buy new "used" cars (test driven) but a gun that has been test-fired outside of the factory would be considered to be used, not new. I am still trying to figure out why we buy guns we don't even know if they work properly or not because we don't/can't test fire them.

Interesting industry perspectives/practices.

gym
May 22, 2011, 12:00 PM
To me new means new. I have a pistol that I haven't fired because I may sell it. I could not in good faith, fire that gun, "to see if I like it", and then sell it as new. The factory test is the only fire that the weapon classified as new should have.
What your options are, is another story. Hiring an attorney and an expert in firearms is probablly going to cost more than the gun did, so if you suspect the gun was fired, either make your decision based on that, or pass.

22-rimfire
May 22, 2011, 12:18 PM
I'm not aware of any "law" concerning a dealer using a gun and then selling it as "new". I believe it is an ethical question. You test drive a car and not buy it, then somebody else test drives it and it is sold as "new". There is a difference, but I don't think I can effectively explain it relative to a gun.

Would test firing a new gun constitute use that causes it to be a used gun? It would be the dealers choice to price it as they see fit. But describing it as NIB would be misleading and unethical. Ethics don't seem to matter much to many when it comes to money.

Bought a M57 Mountain Gun once that had been handled a lot (supposively in the store) and I of course observed the cylinder tracing. But I was going to shoot it anyway, so it did not matter much to me. I don't recall the dealer saying anything other than it was "new". I honestly never trusted that dealer anyway and trust goes a long way in my mind when it comes to buying. That dealer simply didn't seem to play by the same rules as other gunshops I have dealt with. Order a gun for you? Sure... then they never tell you if it comes in... same with that M57, it was supposed to have been ordered for ME, and I just stubbled onto it and wondered why they never called me. I'm glad that gunshop is history now as things never seemed quite as they should be there.

If I were going to collect that M57, I would not have purchased it. The same would apply to any firearm I was planning on collecting. Colt Diamondbacks or Pythons come to mind as the gun is immediately a 98% gun no matter how you want to rationalize it.

JR47
May 22, 2011, 04:31 PM
An automobile may be sold as new, within certain mileage limits determined by the registration state, if it has never been previously registered. That makes it totally different from a gun.

NIB is a term developed by the NRA for grading decades ago. There is a body of law that has accepted this definition, giving it legal precedence. Along with the rest of the definitions as to condition.

NIB doesn't require any box, although it adds a premium for them in some cases.

If a dealer is shooting the guns beforehand for pleasure, he may run afoul of BATFE Rules.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
May 22, 2011, 04:49 PM
What are the Federal Laws, if any, concerning just whose gun the gun actually is when it has been logged into the gun store as being received from the distributor but does not yet have a buyer?

Is it the gun store owner's property? If so, is the gun store owner allowed to wear it for several months in a shoulder rig, concealed? Is he legally permitted to be carrying said weapon out of the store, loaded and into his car, into his house, into stores, malls, etc. even though no record is on file as anyone having yet purchased the gun?

I think if these questions can be answered, we will all have a little more understanding regarding what is legal for a gun shop owner to do and what is not legal!

If, it is in fact legal for the gun shop owner to treat it as his own, personal weapon, only after signing the gun out from the store in some way -- and that person just takes any gun he wants to carry this week off the display shelf, it would seem to me the ATF would like to know about it.

I honestly do not know what the particular laws are, but I would assume, just because it is in the gun shop's possession, does not mean the gun store owner can treat it as if it is his personal gun.

If the law says it only needs to be logged into the book as received and the owner can do with it what he wants, then how do any of us know when we purchase a "brand-new" gun that that gun hasn't seen a "night on the town" and been used in an armed robbery - or even to shoot someone?? :confused:

dogtown tom
May 23, 2011, 12:38 AM
Friendly, Don't Fire! What are the Federal Laws, if any, concerning just whose gun the gun actually is when it has been logged into the gun store as being received from the distributor but does not yet have a buyer? Is it the gun store owner's property?
Uhhh........distributors don't just send out free guns, so of course the dealer owns it because he bought it from the distributor. If he is a sole proprietor it is his property, if his FFL is a partnership or corporation it belongs to the partnership or corporation.




If so, is the gun store owner allowed to wear it for several months in a shoulder rig, concealed? Is he legally permitted to be carrying said weapon out of the store, loaded and into his car, into his house, into stores, malls, etc. even though no record is on file as anyone having yet purchased the gun?
If he is a sole proprietor it's his to do with as he pleases as no 4473 or NICS is required. If his business is a partnership or corporation a 4473 and NICS would be required before he could acquire it for personal use.


I think if these questions can be answered, we will all have a little more understanding regarding what is legal for a gun shop owner to do and what is not legal!
I'm not sure of the point of your questions.
A gun shop owner could shoot 100,000 rounds through a gun and no laws are broken. If he then goes and presents that gun as "NEW" he's not violated any ATF regulation because ATF doesn't have regulations regarding false or fraudulent advertising. (thats the domain of your state government)

If, it is in fact legal for the gun shop owner to treat it as his own, personal weapon, only after signing the gun out from the store in some way -- and that person just takes any gun he wants to carry this week off the display shelf, it would seem to me the ATF would like to know about it.
A dealer who is a sole proprietor only needs to record the transfer in his books as logged out to "personal use". If he decides to return it to his inventory he would then log it back into his records.


I honestly do not know what the particular laws are, but I would assume, just because it is in the gun shop's possession, does not mean the gun store owner can treat it as if it is his personal gun.
Please explain why the actual owner cannot do whatever he wants with his own property.:scrutiny:


If the law says it only needs to be logged into the book as received and the owner can do with it what he wants, then how do any of us know when we purchase a "brand-new" gun that that gun hasn't seen a "night on the town" and been used in an armed robbery - or even to shoot someone??
You don't.:evil:

rogertc1
May 23, 2011, 12:49 AM
Highly unlikely it was fired by a big box dealer. Too many corperate rules for the staff to do this. They would not have the time either. Now if it was a display gun it wuold be handled a lot. Advantage of seeing it before purchase...don't buy it. Perhaps it was returned for repairs. You did not mention if it was a new gun.
No Laws.

Owen Sparks
May 23, 2011, 12:54 AM
I knew a guy who worked in a gun store and sometimes he would take new guns home for the week end to try out to see if he wanted to buy them himself. He was very carefull and cleaned them up thoroughly when he was through. His pholosiphy was that no gun is really new as they all have been fires at the factory for testing and he was just doing a little more test firing. I really don't see that it hurt anything as most new guns need a little breaking in anyway.

mgmorden
May 23, 2011, 09:26 AM
I knew a guy who worked in a gun store and sometimes he would take new guns home for the week end to try out to see if he wanted to buy them himself. He was very carefull and cleaned them up thoroughly when he was through. His pholosiphy was that no gun is really new as they all have been fires at the factory for testing and he was just doing a little more test firing. I really don't see that it hurt anything as most new guns need a little breaking in anyway.

You might not, and that's fine if you buy such guns from him, but it's not up to him to take that decision away from the customers. It doesn't matter whether you think it logical or not, some people want a gun that's as new as can be.

Personally, when I buy a new gun I want NO SHOTS outside of the factory fired. If they "needed to be broken in anyways" was a valid excuse then used (already broken in) guns would carry a premium over new ones. They don't. Just because he cleans up the now used gun to the point where you can't tell, he's still hawking used merchandise as new.

Whether or not he's actually breaking a law is a matter of debate and likely does vary by state. He's a crummy dealer and a deceptive businessman regardless of which state he's in though.

If you own a shop and want to shoot the guns then they are yours - you're certainly free to do so. However if when they're returned to the shop floor they're not advertised as, at best, "Like New", then at best you're a bad business person. In my eyes, you're a flat out liar.

LibShooter
May 23, 2011, 09:45 AM
...how do any of us know when we purchase a "brand-new" gun that that gun hasn't seen a "night on the town" and been used in an armed robbery - or even to shoot someone??

You could ask. If anybody selling anything tells an outright lie to secure the sale, that's against the law.

Whether or not he's actually breaking a law is a matter of debate and likely does vary by state.

I don't see where the dealer who carries a gun and fires it a few times is breaking any law until and unless he misrepresents the facts.

mgmorden
May 23, 2011, 09:48 AM
I don't see where the dealer who carries a gun and fires it a few times is breaking any law until and unless he misrepresents the facts.

The firing it a few times wasn't the part I was referring to. That's almost certainly legally fine everywhere. It's the part about still advertising it as a new item that could potentially be against the law.

LibShooter
May 23, 2011, 09:51 AM
It's the part about still advertising it as a new item that could potentially be against the law.

That's the misrepresenting of facts I was talking about. That's covered in good old-fashion fraud laws.

Double Naught Spy
May 26, 2011, 12:05 AM
NIB is a term developed by the NRA for grading decades ago. There is a body of law that has accepted this definition, giving it legal precedence. Along with the rest of the definitions as to condition.

And the citations for said body of law are....?

You know, I don't find anything saying the NRA has a NIB rating. So it would be hard to find laws pertaining to the NRA's NIB rating, I would think. The do have a condition of NEW when means Not previously sold at retail, in same condition as current factory production, and since factory production often means guns are indeed fired an unknown number of times, firing a few rounds through a gun would not make it necessary a used gun.


http://www.armsbid.com/nra-conditions-standards.cfm
http://www.armchairgunshow.com/Condition-NRA-Guns.htm#modern
http://ocala-armory.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=page&id=11

Apocalypse-Now
May 26, 2011, 03:41 AM
why would it be illegal for an FFL to fire guns they own? :confused:


what is libelous is selling them as "new".

Loosedhorse
May 26, 2011, 07:27 AM
Not libelous; fraud.

Unethical gun shop owners put us in a difficult position. Do we really want to report them, possibly shut down a gun shop (there are few enough IMHO), and--if it makes the news--give all FFLs a black eye?

My answer: an unqualified yes. See if your AG has a fraud division, and make a complaint. In my state (no kidding) the AG would jump at the chance to hassle an FFL. Personally, I think a dishonest FFL does none of us any good, and I'd be pleased to see him go down.

I guess you could always talk to the owner first, indicate that you "understand" that this gun was mislabeled as NIB, and discuss your erstwhile thoughts about contacting the AG until you found out the low, low, low price available on that gun you wanted. "Now, remind me, what was the 'non-whistle-blower's price' on that item, again?"

:evil: IANAL, obviously.

22-rimfire
May 26, 2011, 08:03 AM
Most gun shops do not label guns NIB that I have seen. A collector gun might be labeled that way, but I'd say that's rare too unless the shop focuses on collector guns. I realize NIB does not only relate to collector guns. It is a descriptive term.

Gun shops mostly label guns as new and used. New means that it was purchased as a new gun and will be sold that way. There is usually a matching box that goes with that gun when sold. We all have seen revolvers at gun shops that have been handled a lot in the store and many will show signs of that handling such as the a line on the cylinder which is more or less visible depending on the handling, the gun, and the finish. Many buyers have no respect for the next guy who might look at a gun if they choose not to buy it. That is a fact.

Trust, respect, and ethics are on the wane. It is a symptom of a declining society.

The buyer always has the choice of not buying. That is the dominant power that they have.

Loosedhorse
May 26, 2011, 08:35 AM
New means that it was purchased as a new gun and will be sold that way.So, if it fell off the truck, got run over three times, and looks slightly better than a Custer relic...it can be labeled as a new gun? Legally, could be; most wouldn't call that honest.

Perhaps I am wrong, but "one lie" is kinda like "one mosquito" or "one ant at a picnic." Doesn't happen. Such dishonesty most likely marks a dishonest shop all around.The buyer always has the choice of not buying. That is the dominant power that they have.Your lone choice not to buy that one item, or even to personally boycott the store, pales in comparison to the effect a conversation, organized campaign, or formal complaint may have--whether to the Better Business Bureau, the Chamber of Commerce, or to law enforcement.

If interested in making a difference, the buyer has all of those options, and they can be used in an "escalation of force" manner, depending on what reaction one receives. It remains true that the only "power" the lazy have is to walk away in silence, and not think about whether that makes them "part of the problem." Who cares if someone else gets fleeced, 'slong as it's not me?

Apocalypse-Now
May 26, 2011, 01:49 PM
Not libelous; fraud.

fraud is criminally libel ;)

Whiskey11
May 26, 2011, 02:19 PM
Funny this topic surfaces when my last trip to cabelas involved looking at two "new" ar15s, one a bushy "target" and the other a s&w carbine. Both bolt carriers showed significant brass fouling on the bolt face which was similar to what my r700's bolt face looked like after about 100 rounds or so of .308. Suffice to say I was less than impressed. The good news is that it was a display model, and I was reassured that if I bought one it would only be factory test fired and genuinely new.

doc2rn
May 26, 2011, 02:21 PM
A yr ago I was at the local range/ shop/ man cave when a guy walks in with a S&W .40 he paid top dollar for "new". My first thought was to call the owner over to explain why the weapon he had not fired yet was not new. This weapons slide had been cycled at least 3,000 times.
I showed him the S&W 9mm I had just bought 2 days earlier and had just put 100 rds through still looked better than the one he had. Pointed out the slide marks and the barrel rings etc...
He was back the next week with a New .40.

ironhead7544
May 26, 2011, 05:49 PM
NIB is really a collector thing. To them it means right from the factory and test fired only by the factory. It also means not sold at retail to someone else. If a dealer buys an unfired gun from an owner not a dealer then he should mark it "as new". If the dealer fires one shot from it then its not NIB anymore as far as collectors are concerned. I used to work in a shop that handled many collector guns and this is my understanding of it.

Whiskey11
May 26, 2011, 06:44 PM
I'm no collector, but I like to know exactly how many rounds are down the barrel and how it was treated. Unless I know the seller of a used firearm personally and know the gun was well treated, I won't buy it. Life is too short to mess with broken and abused guns.

I feel the same way about cars. The lower the dealer driven miles the better.

dogtown tom
May 26, 2011, 08:50 PM
Apocalypse-Now Quote:
Not libelous; fraud.
fraud is criminally libel
You are confusing two very different words with similiar pronounciation:
Libel
1. a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b. the act or crime of publishing it.
c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2. anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.

Liable
means legally responsible: as in you are liable for the damage caused by your action.

mp510
May 26, 2011, 09:11 PM
If he is a sole proprietor it's his to do with as he pleases as no 4473 or NICS is required. If his business is a partnership or corporation a 4473 and NICS would be required before he could acquire it for personal use.


He would still be required to log it out of his A&D book, to himsekf, unless he was removing it from the store for bon-a-fide business purposes (e.g. demonstration, marketing, etc....).

45ACPUSER
May 26, 2011, 10:41 PM
Unethical would be a better way to phrase it. And, I know of a chain in the upper midwest that does fire guns under the guise of sighting them in. Selling the gun as a package.....

Bubbles
May 26, 2011, 11:01 PM
And, I know of a chain in the upper midwest that does fire guns under the guise of sighting them in. Selling the gun as a package.
Is he an 07 or an 01? Because if he's an 01 the ATF will pop him for manufacturing without a license. They dinged a dealer in my town for that two years ago.

Apocalypse-Now
May 26, 2011, 11:15 PM
You are confusing two very different words with similiar pronounciation:
Libel
1. a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b. the act or crime of publishing it.
c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2. anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.

Liable
means legally responsible: as in you are liable for the damage caused by your action.
__________________


seriously? :eek:

lol

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