Anti-2a logic flaw


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Charleo0192
May 21, 2011, 03:42 PM
Before I go any further, I want to let you know some of this may seem out of order, but I hope by the end you will understand.

The FBI estimates there are over 200 million privately owned firearms. If those who are anti-2a had their way, that number would be 0. ***I classify anyone who is "anti-2a" as being someone who is opposed to the second amendment. They believe, and this is my opinion of what they believe, private citizens like you and me should legally forbidden to own and/or bear a firearm.

Now suppose tomorrow federal and state laws made owning and/or using a firearm illegal. Would you give up your guns, or would you keep them? You don't have to answer this as I am sure your answer will be very similar, if not exactly, to every other member of this forum.

I have to give my anser though as I feel it is needed to further understand what I am trying to convey. My answer is NO. The day our basic rights are taken away, I feel America is no longer "America".

Out of that 200 million, I am sure there will be some who would abide by that law. Even if 3/4 of the people went by that law, you still have 50 million firearms out there.

It seems nearly impossible to expect to succeed at clearing society of guns and the "dange" they carry with it. I understand that some people want gun control, but why do they feel it will be succesful. Surely they can't think they will get all the guns and make the world safer.

Guns are here, and they aren't leaving anytime soon. I almost want to call people who want a lot of gun control insane, as what they are fighting for seems pointless as even if the law goes with it, the guns will still be around.

Just discuss really. If you found something I said to be wrong, please let me know.

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texgunner
May 21, 2011, 03:52 PM
I agree with you. I'm keeping my guns; I'll bury or dump them in the ocean rather than turn them in to comply with unconstitutional, unamerican laws.

As many guns are in private hands in this country it would take several generations to get'em all.

9MMare
May 21, 2011, 03:57 PM
I dont think law enforcement would ever support this either. The minute they tried this, many (most?) gun owners would go underground...or at least their guns would.

So our guns would be 'off the radar' completely and the govt would have no idea who and what was out here. The guns wouldnt go away, but hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of criminals would be created.

I dont ever see them making gun ownership illegal, but I do worry about more and more carry restrictions.

mljdeckard
May 21, 2011, 04:00 PM
If it's time to bury them, it's time to dig them up.

EddieNFL
May 21, 2011, 05:23 PM
I dont think law enforcement would ever support this either.

While there will be pockets of resistance, I believe LE and the military will follow orders.

Katrina. LE still believes they were in the right to confiscate. Word in NO is they would do it again.

9MMare
May 21, 2011, 05:29 PM
While there will be pockets of resistance, I believe LE and the military will follow orders.

Katrina. LE still believes they were in the right to confiscate. Word in NO is they would do it again.

People in NO had no time to prepare.

I didnt mean that LE wouldnt follow orders, I meant that I didnt think they'd 'agree' with it necessarily, as I see it making things more dangerous for them....if now they had to assume everyone was hiding their guns and on the defensive.

Cops have zero reason to come to my house unless I call them. If they showed up at my house unnannounced and there was a national gun ban....I'd be darn suspicious and a bit defensive.

AlexanderA
May 21, 2011, 05:39 PM
The debate in this country is not really about immediate gun confiscation. Even the antis know that this is a practical impossibility. What their strategy is, is to put up ever more restrictions (think California, New Jersey, Chicago), so that the number of gun owners is reduced and the "vexation factor" in owning guns is increased. Then the culture changes, people see fewer guns and talk about guns less, and then they're open to even more restrictions, even to the point of repealing the 2nd Amendment. This is the kind of road, extending over years, that the U.K., Australia, etc., have already travelled down.

mljdeckard
May 21, 2011, 05:44 PM
I think it depends on where you are and what agency you are talking about. I have had conversations with my chain of command about this up to the state commander. Orders to seize the arms of citizens in a time of crisis without due process are illegal, immoral, and unethical. It is unlikely they would have to be refused, because it is unlikely they would be given.

That's my state. Can't speak for yours.

clutch
May 21, 2011, 05:48 PM
I'm sure we have some Canadians on the High Road, how many unregistered guns do you believe exist in Canada, a country that doesn't have the 2nd Amendment.

Clutch

Neverwinter
May 21, 2011, 06:02 PM
Out of that 200 million, I am sure there will be some who would abide by that law. Even if 3/4 of the people went by that law, you still have 50 million firearms out there.
The math on that is probably wrong, since the number of firearms is not evenly distributed among all gun owners.

It seems nearly impossible to expect to succeed at clearing society of guns and the "dange" they carry with it. I understand that some people want gun control, but why do they feel it will be succesful. Surely they can't think they will get all the guns and make the world safer.
What are you claiming as their definition of success? Is it 0 guns in private ownership? Reducing the danger faced by society?

Vyacheslav
May 21, 2011, 06:21 PM
While there will be pockets of resistance, I believe LE and the military will follow orders.

Katrina. LE still believes they were in the right to confiscate. Word in NO is they would do it again.

the NOPD is legendary for their incompetence and idiocy

EddieNFL
May 22, 2011, 10:37 AM
I meant that I didnt think they'd 'agree' with it necessarily

I believe the majority will agree. Most LE are not gun aficionados nor constitutional experts.

the NOPD is legendary for their incompetence and idiocy

And they're far from the lone exception.

Consider this: Any time a state considers relaxing firearms restrictions, the first group to predict the streets will run red with blood are LE agencies. Some of you will argue that is just the upper echelon of LE. While that's true, the cop walking a beat doesn't have a bully pulpit so you seldom hear his opinion. Read the threads of law abiding citizens arrested, detained, searched, etc., because the officer didn't know (or didn't care) what the law is. These are not upper echelon cops; they're the ones who follow orders.

vito
May 22, 2011, 11:12 AM
I think that those who claim they would not cooperate with a loss of their 2A rights are mostly showing false bravado. We will not ever face a sudden change of law that immediately requires each of us to surrender all of our guns. If this comes, it will come gradually. It might start with a few types of guns being banned, or it might start with some form of relatively benign registration. As an example, here in IL all gun owners, or even those who might want to look at a gun in a gun store, or who want to purchase ammo must have a Firearms Owner Identification Card or FOID card. Overwhelmingly most gun owners comply since without a FOID card you risk arrest even for a legal self defense act with a gun, let alone how hard it would be to purchase ammo. Someday maybe the FOID card holders will be forced by law to register only high capacity magazine handguns, or only rifles with scopes, or only magnum firing pistols, etc. That is how it will go, inch by inch, and with most gun owners going along with the new laws even if unhappy about it, until we find that the authorities know every gun we own and where to find them. Right now I don't think our society is moving in that direction at all, but should things change I really believe it will be a slow death by a thousand small cuts.

SpentCasing
May 22, 2011, 11:23 AM
LEOs protecting the rights of citizens? That's a good one!

jiminhobesound
May 22, 2011, 12:57 PM
I agree that the slow process of registering will be the strategy. Do not underestimate, now or in the future, the current administration and its adherents with respect to gun control. If we can see it coming maybe we will have to set up exchanges, like in a gun show, where the ability of the government to identify gun owners and their guns is made more difficult. Remember the bad old days of the BATF breaking in to homes and actually shooting innocent folks.

vito
May 22, 2011, 01:21 PM
Just as many ER doc's think motorcycles are too dan:gerous because they only see those that crashed, many LEO' only see gunson criminals and thus
are against private ownership.

9MMare
May 22, 2011, 01:24 PM
I think that those who claim they would not cooperate with a loss of their 2A rights are mostly showing false bravado. We will not ever face a sudden change of law that immediately requires each of us to surrender all of our guns. If this comes, it will come gradually. It might start with a few types of guns being banned, or it might start with some form of relatively benign registration. As an example, here in IL all gun owners, or even those who might want to look at a gun in a gun store, or who want to purchase ammo must have a Firearms Owner Identification Card or FOID card. Overwhelmingly most gun owners comply since without a FOID card you risk arrest even for a legal self defense act with a gun, let alone how hard it would be to purchase ammo. Someday maybe the FOID card holders will be forced by law to register only high capacity magazine handguns, or only rifles with scopes, or only magnum firing pistols, etc. That is how it will go, inch by inch, and with most gun owners going along with the new laws even if unhappy about it, until we find that the authorities know every gun we own and where to find them. Right now I don't think our society is moving in that direction at all, but should things change I really believe it will be a slow death by a thousand small cuts.

I mostly agree with this and was going to write something similar about the gradual nature of the change.

I think that's why so many of us chafe every time another state does make a restriction. Altho I think the past 2 yrs have been favorable for the 2A.

I also think it's why we need to fight each little change if we can....by our votes, by providing good information & statistics, by responsible behavior, etc.

EddieNFL
May 22, 2011, 06:48 PM
I think that those who claim they would not cooperate with a loss of their 2A rights are mostly showing false bravado.

One little 'ol lady in NO fought (but lost) when LE confiscated her firearm.

We will not ever face a sudden change of law that immediately requires each of us to surrender all of our guns. If this comes, it will come gradually. It might start with a few types of guns being banned, or it might start with some form of relatively benign registration. As an example, here in IL all gun owners, or even those who might want to look at a gun in a gun store, or who want to purchase ammo must have a Firearms Owner Identification Card or FOID card. Overwhelmingly most gun owners comply since without a FOID card you risk arrest even for a legal self defense act with a gun, let alone how hard it would be to purchase ammo. Someday maybe the FOID card holders will be forced by law to register only high capacity magazine handguns, or only rifles with scopes, or only magnum firing pistols, etc. That is how it will go, inch by inch, and with most gun owners going along with the new laws even if unhappy about it, until we find that the authorities know every gun we own and where to find them. Right now I don't think our society is moving in that direction at all, but should things change I really believe it will be a slow death by a thousand small cuts.

You are correct, however, what you described began decades ago.

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