I'm new to firearms, I'm a small guy and I'm not to good with the weight of full sized ak-47s so i've decided the draco is the way to go. I would like to use it for home defense / learning to maintain a weapon / and recreational purposes. I need to know what ammo i should use for recreation and home defense. I live in an urban enviornment, but, every time theres a home invasion its usually around 3 armed men. Not 2 weeks ago there was a robbery that ended in a shooting right across the street. I live in Florida if that somehow helps? Any advice would be great.
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May 23, 2011, 04:54 PM
I'll be completely honest with you:
If you're looking for a serious home defense gun, do not get a gun that is a rifle action configured as a pistol.
Guns like the Draco or the Olympic Arms OA93 basically combine the worst aspects of a rifle with the worst aspects of a handgun.
They're larger and bulkier than a handgun, which means they require more strength to hold and aim properly. Additionally the lack of a shoulder stock means that they are going to be harder to aim than a rifle.
Also, the very short barrels on these guns tends to result in a gun that is exceedingly loud with a very prominent muzzle flash, both things that will hinder you if you find yourself having to defend your home at 3:30 AM.
For home defense, you'd be best going with a shotgun with a proper shoulder stock, or a handgun like a Glock, S&W M&P, or SIG.
For the most part, unless you have a physical disability of some sort, a long gun shouldn't be too hard to handle, especially for something like a home defense scenario.
Either way, a shotgun or handgun would be a much more practical choice for home defense than something like a Draco.
If you don't have much pre-existing experience shooting firearms, I'd also recommend taking an introductory self-defense or firearms safety course.
May 23, 2011, 04:59 PM
If i was able to add a stock after the proper legal business, would that help? I've never been big on shotguns because most of the ones at my lgs are too heavy even a dbl barrel shotgun is really heavy more so than the Ar-15s. And the pistols are way overpriced the Draco is cheaper than almost all the pistols in effective calibers.
May 23, 2011, 05:26 PM
Justin pretty much sums it up, you mentioned youve never been big on shotguns cause of the weight, if you search theres allot that are lighter thans most ar-15s. one is the cz-712 semi-auto=6.6lbs/20" BL/4+1 cap. i would seriously consider a shotgun for hd and the ak pistol for recreational. i purchased the mini-draco and that would be last on my list for hd.
May 23, 2011, 05:34 PM
if you could only get one to encompass both like fun and hd. felt more comfortable with a longer weapon than a pistol, because my vision isnt the best and i find rifle sights better from what ive noticed at the lgs. pistols feel kind of akward and are hard to aim for me. Im using graduation gift money for this so it isnt going to be thousands probably around 500$. so a reasonably priced easy to aim rifle that doesnt require me cleaning it every day or worrying about how grimey it gets when i go with my friend to the boonies and shoot. Thats why i think ive focused on the ak style weapons. tho i know it has to be maintained just not as often as a pistol or american made weapon.
May 23, 2011, 05:39 PM
Shotgun for home defense. Sure you can hammer nails with a screwdriver but it's the wrong tool for the job. It take a long time to get proficient with handguns, think how many times you missed the dartboard altogether when you first threw darts as a kid and you get a general idea. Multiply that under pressure... a shotgun with low recoil buckshot is the way to go. You are much less likely to harm others (penetration nowhere near a rifle round) and much more likely to hit your target. And even in Florida I'd hate to be tried by a jury staring down a mean looking pistol chambered for rifle rounds.
May 23, 2011, 05:46 PM
thank you for the advice , i think i may try and find a lightweight shotgun or a pistol that feels right. i just hope i can find one thats capable of downing 3 thugs that also have pistols and shotguns haha
May 23, 2011, 05:46 PM
I don't disagree with anything that anyone said so far, however I must add that Draco pistols and mini draco pistols are a LOT of fun. They are a relatively small package, and they pack one heck of a punch. Personally, I feel that with a set of tech sights, a decent folding shoulder stock (and SBR tax stamp), and lots of practice; the Draco can be a formidable, reliable and effective home defense weapon in the right situations. Flash hiders can be added to mitigate and in some cases almost totally negate the flash. Firing any firearm indoors in a HD situation is going to be loud enough to cause hearing damage, so a little bit more or less is probably not going to make too much difference (any licensed audiologists or medical doctors feel free to chime in and correct me if I'm mistaken).
May 23, 2011, 05:53 PM
If shotguns and full size AKs are too heavy for you then you likely wont be able to handle a Drako. yes shorter, lighter, more compact. But if you're that weak the recoil will beat you up.
Take a firearms class.
May 23, 2011, 05:57 PM
i can manage holding the draco loaded and everything its fine its just the full length rifles are bulky and usually end up being heavy as there are no polymer ones at the lgs, if i could fit a adjustable stock it would be perfect if i could somehow change the furniture out to be all polymer that would be amazing
May 23, 2011, 06:01 PM
1. get an Ar-15.
2. take a rifle class from someone.
May 23, 2011, 06:01 PM
i just hope i can find one thats capable of downing 3 thugs that also have pistols and shotguns haha
If you can't engage three targets at close range with a handgun like a Glock, it's not likely you'll be able to do it with something like a Draco, either.
It's not the gun.
If you're on a strict budget (you mentioned $500), you'll still be able to find something reasonable. Again, unless you've got a disability of some sort, I have a hard time believing that a shotgun would be prohibitively difficult for you to handle.
If you absolutely need something lighter, then get a handgun. Open up any Thrifty Nickel or any of the classifieds section of the various online gun forums, and you should be able to find a good condition previously owned gun like a Glock without much searching. Those often go for less than $500.
May 23, 2011, 06:16 PM
wecome to the forum. one thing i would like to add is how much distance beween your house and your neighbors house. becuse even if you are defending yourself you are responsible for every round you fire until it comes to a stop. so if you miss with an 7.62x39 that round will probley exit the house & still travel for awhile. which is why some of the earlier post recommended a pistol or shotgun. which could still exit the house and hit someone or something, it just has less energy to dissipate. i think it is good to prepare to defend yourself & your family it just isn't the best tool for the job. i also highly recommend taking a local introductory firearms class.
May 23, 2011, 06:18 PM
I agree with the previous posters against getting a Draco or similar gun for HD purposes. At first when I heard of the Draco it sounded too good to be true...then when I looked into it more, turns out it was too good to be true (for HD anyway). There is no free lunch, and that certainly applies to making a rifle into pseudo-pistol.
One thing you might want to consider is a semi-auto SMG, like the Kel Tec SUB-2000 or an MP5 clone. These are chambered for pistol cartridges so you don't run into the issues that the Draco has. They count as a long gun rather than an SBR so you don't need to worry about NFA. Having a stock and longer sight radius will make it more accurate than a pistol, while still being short enough for easy handling. Recoil shouldn't be bad, especially with a 9mm Luger chambering. The longer barrel will give you better muzzle velocity than a pistol and probably reduced flash as well. The SUB-2000 has $400 MSRP, although Kel Tec products are sometimes hard to find in stock.
May 23, 2011, 06:19 PM
Handgunning does take lots of practice to become proficient, unless you have good one-on-one instruction to correct your bad habbits. The good thing is dry-firing is probably the best self instruction you can have, as well as cheap. When the hammer falls on the firing pin, there's no recoil to distract you, you either know your sights were on target or they weren't, if not, do it until your aim is true.
Check out this site, there are guns listed that will get the job done for the price range you're looking at and at a reasonable driving distance.
May 23, 2011, 06:39 PM
The Draco pistol is what it is because of laws. No one thought "Hmm, I want to design an effective small arm." and came up with the Draco pistol. They designed it to sell as a range toy to the American civilian consumer. It has serious drawbacks in its design and use in order to be able to sell legally in the American market. With some effort, money, and time, it can be a serious weapon, but without that it is basically just a toy.
If you want a small and light rifle there are plenty to choose from. 16" AR-15 (probably beyond your budget), Kel-Tec SU-16, Kel-Tec SUB 20000, M1 Carbine, and the Hi-Point Carbine to name a few. There are also plenty of handguns that you should find usable, and that fall into your budget. I would also look at a 12 or 20 gauge pump action shotgun at your price point, maybe with a youth stock depending on your size.
Just remember a gun is not everything. Even with a great set of tools, a novice can not build a house. Just recently there was a video floating around of a man with a kitchen knife attacking and killing police officers armed with AK-47s. I believe he killed two of them and injured a few more before they were able to stop him. I hope this story illustrates how irrelevant the firearm you choose can be.
May 23, 2011, 06:42 PM
The closest place to me is Shoot straight , the cheapest carbine that uses pistol ammo is the high point 9mm carbine for $299 it looks pretty cool i could invest the rest of money into optics , unless theres an issue with it? urban area i believe its less than 50 ft from my house to the next.
May 23, 2011, 06:46 PM
FourteenMiles makes a good suggestion with the 20 gauge shotgun. If you don't like heavy recoil, this would be a good option for you while still being very effective.
May 23, 2011, 06:57 PM
The lgs only has them in .45 would that work? im still worried about over penetration of course but im slightly afraid of sd with a pistol cartridge , my friend talks about how awesome the ar is and i know they aren't too heavy but they are so over priced. But, im starting to think this pistol carbine would be a good idea for me light yet long enough for me to aim and fire effectively.
May 23, 2011, 07:02 PM
Get what works and is within your budget. If you want an AR down the road then wait until you can afford it.
May 23, 2011, 07:05 PM
If i get the .45 carbine am i going to get hassled when i try to buy ammo? Im 19 can i even buy a carbine that fires pistol cartridges in fl?
May 23, 2011, 07:10 PM
Some stores may ask you if it's for a pistol or rifle. Other stores may not sell it at all to someone under 21.
May 23, 2011, 09:25 PM
ARs won't penetrate as much as most rifle calibers, especially if you use the 55gr bullets, but penetration may still be a concern. Realistically, it's always a concern if you live close to others. I'd take it into consideration, but don't compromise on weapon effectiveness for the one-in-a-million scenario where you might shoot an innocent person through a wall. Overpenetration is a possibility even with a shotgun. That said, rifles aren't necessary for the close ranges you'd need to defend yourself in/near your home. Many people use a .45 ACP for HD and I think you'd be perfectly fine with a carbine in that caliber.
Gunnutery is right in that, at least in Wisconsin, you may be asked "pistol or rifle" when buying handgun-caliber ammo and age 21 is required if it's for a pistol. Ironically this applies even to .22LR. You might want to try buying a box of .45 at a local store before investing in the carbine, unless you know someone aged 21+ that is willing to buy ammo for you. You could also try ordering ammo online.
May 23, 2011, 11:01 PM
Honestly, a short shotgun is would be perfect.
I have a Draco, limited to 10 rnd mags in CA, and that is relatively heavy compared to my SGL 31 rifle. Additionally, the 7.62x39 caliber is not wise in a dense urban environment as there is concern for the safety of others in close proximity, but that has been discussed.
I say a shotty, maybe a mossberg 500 6 shot cruiser with a pistol grip -
I you are 19 years of age, you cannot buy any pistol from a dealer in the USA. This means no Draco, as it a handgun. Private individual sales may be OK in FL; check your laws.
If a conventional handgun is too large/heavy for you to shoot well, how are you going to handle a comparative behemoth like a Draco? A Draco starts handling well when it has a stock attached, and that requires that you meet the legal requirements for owning a short
barreled rifle, as defined by the BATFE.
Small hands a problem? How about a Ruger SP101? That is what is in my pocket as I type this. My hands are not so small, but my fingers and thumbs are stubbier than I wish, so small handguns can work quite well for me, and the SP101 works well with Magnum ammo. (I have other weapons near at hand; the SP101 is on my person, and it will still be with me tonight on police patrol, when I have other weapons on and about my person.)
Two or three opponents? I am still OK with a revolver to start the fight, if it is backed up by suitable weapons, and I would rather that revolver be a GP100 that holds six shots. Something like a shotgun or Mini-14 would make a wonderful long gun to back-up the handgun.
May 24, 2011, 08:49 PM
1.. the 7.62x39 is a rifle round, think over-penetration
2.. the round was designed to be shot from a rifle, one shot from a Draco, at night/inside your home you have lost your sight and your hearing. You will have an impressive muzzle flash. Same with a shotty.
Get a 9mm or .380, load with sub-sonics. Your not trying to make wall 'art', just make the BG go away.
As mentioned, if you were to go in front of a jury as the result of a HD situation..I would rather have used a CZ-82 then a Draco. Visuals count
May 25, 2011, 12:28 AM
I read all of the post... And I just keep thinking shotgun
May 25, 2011, 03:55 AM
I own a draco. They're a lot of fun, but have several problems.
The sights are designed for a nose against the receiver. This forces you to either hold the pistol far forward (reducing accuracy), replace the sights (not a lot of non-battery options, generally costs $200 or more), or risk taking a receiver to the nose (which trains you to flinch).
The muzzle blast and recoil are tremendous. Overcoming these without flinching can be tough, and accidentally bump-firing the pistol is a real (and dangerous) possibility. You're best off using a sling and applying forward pressure before firing. In a dark scenario this might well leave you blind and deaf after the first shot, especially since the pistol comes standard with no flash suppressor.
Due to the lack of a shoulder stock, follow-up shots are much slower than with a more standard pistol or rifle.
If you spend the $200 (really $300-$500 including parts) extra and put a shoulder stock on it, the short AK47-pattern rifle you make will be plenty adequate for home defense, but then you're exposing yourself to the liability of using an evil-looking weapon *and* one not generally available to the public. Even in an open and shut self-defense scenario, you'll pay a lot more defending yourself than if you'd used a good old shotgun.
May 25, 2011, 10:13 AM
Sounds like that thing would be like setting off a flashbang grenade in your face. Anyone have links to a video of one fired in the dark?
May 25, 2011, 10:37 AM
The Draco is an romanian AIMR carbine minus the stock. No one designed it for the US market, they simply removed the stock to get past importation.
It makes a relatively inexpensive SBR project, but is practically useless in its pistol form. So I say get one if you want plan on getting a form 1, or want a fun range toy. Otherwise skip it.
May 25, 2011, 10:47 AM
This thread is very opportune.
I had been eyeballing an AK pistol at my local gunstore to add to my collection, for fun, HD, etc.
Having heard the pluses and minuses, I believe I'll just stick with my SIG, Glock, revolvers, shotguns, etc.
May 25, 2011, 10:49 AM
A lot of people say the draco is "Useless" before they even shoot, or touch one.
Buy one, they're one hell of a good time. A lot more fun than my sig and glocks.
May 25, 2011, 12:28 PM
The OP isn't asking for a fun gun. He's asking for an effective home defense weapon.
May 26, 2011, 12:48 AM
I agree, Draco not the way to go, I'd say most rifle rounds and even a 44 mag is too much. I have a girlfriend and a small apartment. She couldn't shoot a big gun simply cause her hands are too tiny. We keep a 22 Buckmark on the end table reaching distance from the bed because... I know she can shoot someone between the eyes with it and it's never jammed. But also I know if I get up and start shooting, bullets aren't going to easily blow through the walls into the street etc.. Also wouldn't be terribly dangerous to pop a few rounds off into the floor (posturing/intimidation) without risk of killing someone innocent a block away or in the building (ricochet). Many would say a 22 is underpowered and I wouldn't say it's ideal but she can NOT shoot the other guns with confidence so plausibility and practicality reign.
My advice. 1) Doggy 2) Door alarms are cheap and give you the edge easily if not scare them away completely and cheaply. 3) Keep a large maglite next to the pistol. It provides light without getting up (you can't shoot what you can't see) you don't have to turn on the lights (revealing your location) and you can club someone over the head with it after you blind them. It's always good to have alternatives, most burglars don't intend/want a confrontation, blowing someone away isn't necessarily greatest means of dispatching trouble (i.e. what if it was the neighbor kid being dumb?)
BUT if you know you're going to end up with 3 thugs in your living room at 3:00am..... I'd get out on the roof at least an hour early with a shotgun (12 gauge/pump), bone-saw, pee bottle, some large plastic bags and maybe a drag harness (preferably not blaze orange).
May 26, 2011, 02:15 AM
You can get most rifles/scatterguns in synthetic stocks, a mini 14 or mini 30 in synth stock me be good for you, shorter than AK I believe, or just get a DI AR with the shortest legal barrel, real light weight, low recoil.
May 26, 2011, 05:14 AM
also, Florida laws, face to face trades or buys are legal as long as you are 18+ and the seller believes you to not be a felon or risk, so technically, you should be in the clear. If you plan on venturing up to the panhandle I'm trying to get rid of my lnib Glock 27, though not so ideal for you since you must be 21 to cc in FL and rather small for HD. I use a local FL forum for ftf transactions at decent prices, perhaps Orlando has some.
May 26, 2011, 06:06 AM
i prefer pistols for home defense. less gun for an intruder to possibly grab.
the last thing i want is to ensue in a wrestling match over my gun with a burglar.
if you must have a rifle, get a 5.56. the 7.62x39 penetrates too much, unless you have no close neighbors or family members, then have at it. however, as previously discussed, the blast and recoil is less than pleasurable.
May 26, 2011, 02:45 PM
I kinda wish i could have something with a bayonet, something with a little weight to it that wont go through all the walls in the building. Reason why i didn't really want a normal pistol is that they are too small, I can't aim them properly. The draco seemed long enough for me to get at least some accuracy. Rifles seem too bulky and such but i guess that with a little training ill get used to it.
May 26, 2011, 03:01 PM
those 10 inch ak's/ar's are more difficult to shoot accurately than handguns. you're basically trying to steady a big giant pistol. i've fired several.
they're not made for pinpoint accuracy, they're made for lead slinging.
you can attach a sling, which by pulling away from your body helps steady the ak pistols, but it's still not going to give you rifle accuracy.
May 26, 2011, 03:20 PM
Get it pistol caliber carbine, affordable, lightweight, slimline, and legal to be at FFL at age 18.
Then when you turn 21/think about CCW, get the pistol with mags that you use in the carbine-so pick a good model, Glock/Beretta/S&W magwells
May 26, 2011, 03:30 PM
Im sure this has been said more than enough times for you to understand it, but you need a shotgun.
May 26, 2011, 04:59 PM
I really have distaste for shotguns I always have. My friends tried on more than one occasion to get me to even consider them. I hate the pump action business he says the sound will scare people away. I say thats garbage. I'd rather have a 10 rd sks over a 4-8 rd shotgun that i have to pump. But, as everyone has told me 7.62 x 39 is a bit too big. I looked into frangibles and such but i guess if it doesnt fragment properly there would be a problem. Also my friend pushes birdshot like its some heaven sent man destroyer. My grandfather says i should have something that fires .22 magnums in which we argued about for a long time.
May 26, 2011, 07:47 PM
If i was able to add a stock after the proper legal business, would that help? I've never been big on shotguns because most of the ones at my lgs are too heavy even a dbl barrel shotgun is really heavy more so than the Ar-15s. And the pistols are way overpriced the Draco is cheaper than almost all the pistols in effective calibers
Are you a midget or something? I know of girls who aren't even 100 pounds who can handle a 12ga Remington 870 with no problem. They aren't that bad. Sack up a little bit and get yourself a quality pump shotgun, load it up with some No 4 buckshot, and keep it somewhere secure (but that you can quickly access)
Don't buy something stupid like a Draco AK pistol for home defense. That's a horrible idea. Besides, if you're able to hold up one of those and shoot it, there is absolutely NO reason why you can't shoulder a pump shotgun and use that
May 26, 2011, 07:55 PM
other than my deep hatred for anything that requires me to pump it every time i fire. Then theres semi auto shotguns i dislike them for the limited capacity.
May 26, 2011, 08:07 PM
So basically you just don't want to like shotguns (and bolt action rifles I assume)
Then get a handgun. 9mm, .45, .357, those are all great choices. Glock, SIG, etc...they will all run for a very long time. Rifle calibers aren't a smart choice for home defense
May 26, 2011, 08:13 PM
that makes sense, what would be a good first rifle after the home defense pistol?
May 26, 2011, 08:54 PM
Really depends on what you like and how much money you want to spend. Since bolt actions are out, the main ones would be the AR, AK, and HK platforms. You'd have to decide what calibers you're interested in, and what system/platform interests you the most
For an AR, you can get a nice DoubleStar AR-15 (5.56x45) for about $700 from Bud's
For an AK, you can get a Polish Tantal or a Romanian WASR (7.62x39) for about $400 to $600
For an HK clone, you can get a CETME (.308) for about $500 to $600
May 26, 2011, 10:59 PM
i like the idea of the cetme, they have wasrs at the lgs but it doesnt have the indentations around the mag well and they wont put a empty mag in so i can see how much it wobles the empty mags are always conviently too far in the back. Where in Orlando could I find a Cetme and if i had to order it how would i go about getting it , ive never purchased a gun online or in ftf
May 26, 2011, 11:15 PM
jgsales.com stocks CETMEs for $499 + shipping
As for the WASR, if you get one of those use polymer mags (i.e. Tapco brand). That will eliminate the wobble
May 26, 2011, 11:20 PM
Well jgsales has to ship it somewhere idk how to handle that process i know they can't mail it to me so what do i do?
May 27, 2011, 12:07 AM
You'll just need to find a local FFL. If you call JG, they could probably tell you of dealers they have on file in your area. I know Bud's can do that, I figure JG is big enough they would have multiple dealers on file as well
May 27, 2011, 12:44 AM
Would buying a used gun be a good idea? I know that Atlantic arms has them for 499 too I just hope i don't get jacked with shipping and the price of transfer thing
May 27, 2011, 12:55 AM
I'm pretty sure you won't find an un-used draco, I thought all foreign guns from the eastern block/asia like nagants and aks are all old
May 27, 2011, 01:06 AM
What about cetme's, also whats the plural of cetme?
May 27, 2011, 03:07 AM
I've had a Draco for a while and have put many rounds through it. It's more controllable than people give it credit for, and it's also easier to aim and more accurate than many realize. They're built more solidly than a standard WASR and they're super fun at the range.
That said, it would be the last thing I'd grab for home defense. Give me a handgun or shotgun in that situation.
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