Dropping the slide on a Chambered round


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skolten
May 26, 2011, 03:16 AM
At the Pistol range the other day a member was doing a test on his STI 2011. He was going to drop a round in the Chamber and let the slide slam down on it. We all had a discussion on weather that was the right thing to do. I said the round on a 1911-2011 must be stripped from the Mag, and the rim runs between the extractor hook and the Breach face.To drop the slide on a chambered round will flex the extractor past its designed limits. It might be ok for a couple of times but I sure would not do it, as it will loosen extractor tension. Any thoughts on this ???

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gathert
May 26, 2011, 03:23 AM
Ive done that a lot on many different guns and have never had a problem but I dont do it that often either. Dont you think there would be something in the manual stating not to do it if there was a problem? its generally a good practice not to do that though. Its just undue wear on gun parts. Though I did have a guy tell me that dropping the slide on an empty 1911 will somehow mangle up a sear and have the slide lock up and I would have to take it to a smith to get fixed. Not sure what he was talking about though.

1911s were designed to strip a round from the mag upon the slide closing, and it takes all of 2 seconds to load a mag then another 2 to put it in the gun so tell your friend not to be lazy.

rbernie
May 26, 2011, 08:31 AM
For most pistols with spring-loaded external extractors, it's not that big of a deal. However, I learned the same thing that you did WRT the 1911 pattern pistols - the internal extractor *can* snap over the rim but it's really not meant to be used that way and it ought not be done as general practice.

Sky
May 26, 2011, 08:34 AM
+1 rbernie

Alec
May 26, 2011, 08:38 AM
I know that Kimber and Springfield advise in their manuals not to load the chamber by dropping a round in and releasing the slide. Not sure about other modern 1911-pattern manufacturers.

Ole Coot
May 26, 2011, 09:08 AM
I've always stripped from the mag simply because being "fat fingered" it is a lot easier. I don't know any shooters personally that don't.

Winkman822
May 26, 2011, 09:14 AM
I know that Kimber and Springfield advise in their manuals not to load the chamber by dropping a round in and releasing the slide. Not sure about other modern 1911-pattern manufacturers.
My Wilson Combat manual says likewise. Load from the mag only.

Ben86
May 26, 2011, 09:59 AM
People who do that are asking for broken extractors and mauled case rims. The gun is designed to let the cartridge case rim slip behind the extractor as the slide is closing on a loaded mag. To do otherwise is contrary to design and moronic IMO.

tmoore912
May 26, 2011, 10:07 AM
Ive done that a lot on many different guns and have never had a problem but I dont do it that often either. Dont you think there would be something in the manual stating not to do it if there was a problem? its generally a good practice not to do that though. Its just undue wear on gun parts. Though I did have a guy tell me that dropping the slide on an empty 1911 will somehow mangle up a sear and have the slide lock up and I would have to take it to a smith to get fixed. Not sure what he was talking about though.
1911s were designed to strip a round from the mag upon the slide closing, and it takes all of 2 seconds to load a mag then another 2 to put it in the gun so tell your friend not to be lazy.
With regards to dropping the slide on an empty chamber with a 1911. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7255467&postcount=26

BRE346
May 26, 2011, 01:07 PM
For What it's Worth, I've put a snap cap into an open chamber and snapped the slide onto it. Then I decided that's a little clumsy when I can put the snapcap into a mag and load it like it's s'posed to be. Yeah, that's better.

PO2Hammer
May 26, 2011, 01:28 PM
There are a couple pistols designed to handle chamber loading (Beretta 92, HK USP), but not the 1911.

rellascout
May 26, 2011, 01:32 PM
For most pistols with spring-loaded external extractors, it's not that big of a deal. However, I learned the same thing that you did WRT the 1911 pattern pistols - the internal extractor *can* snap over the rim but it's really not meant to be used that way and it ought not be done as general practice.


+1 It will not distroy the pistol if done occasionally but I would certainly not do it to any 1911 style pistol I own.

mgmorden
May 26, 2011, 01:46 PM
It's basically the same situation as you have with controlled-feed rifles vs push feed rifles. You have to strip from the mag on controlled, but its fine to just throw one in the chamber with a push feed.

MOST internal extractors tend to not be setup to cam to the side and snap over a round. Most external extractors are. If you plan on dropping a round right in, you have to know what you're working with.

Personally, despite knowing the difference, I feel it a good practice to always strip from the mag anyways.

Nushif
May 26, 2011, 02:22 PM
There are a couple pistols designed to handle chamber loading (Beretta 92, HK USP), but not the 1911.

This. I know my Kahr isn't supposed to have it done, but my Berettas actually say in the manual it's a design feature, if I remember right.

Sometimes reading the manual from front to back is actually really interesting.

Heretic
May 26, 2011, 03:30 PM
Yea, if you want to do it with yours, whatever. Just don't do it with mine.

ironhead7544
May 26, 2011, 03:46 PM
The 1911 extractor should be clearanced to allow it to snap over the case rim. If chamber loading then ride the slide a little to slow it down so it just snaps over the rim. Loading from the magazine is fine but keep in mind that the top bullet will become loose if it is repeatedly loaded from the mag. It can get pushed into the case and can cause high pressure.

I have seen high speed movies of the 1911 and the round does not always slip under the extractor. If the extractor is not fitted properly with enough clearance it can damage parts.

Zerodefect
May 26, 2011, 04:36 PM
There is no point in doing it anyways. It's stupid and slams the slide forward faster than normal feeding deos. All that 16-18lbs of recoil spring force is caught be the edge of the extractor getting hammered into the case.

Put the rounds in the mag where they belong and load that into the gun.

One round at a time dropped into the chamber is just nonsense.

Effigy
May 26, 2011, 04:43 PM
I think the idea is to get one in the chamber without having to load the mag, rack a round, remove the mag, top it off, and reinsert it again (which always felt like a runaround to me). I wish they would just design the extractor to facilitate dropping in a round, but if it's not designed for that you should operate the according to its design and load from the mag.

greyeyezz
May 26, 2011, 05:52 PM
Where in a HK USP manual does it say its ok to chamber load?

CMC
May 26, 2011, 06:02 PM
I have replaced extractors on Kahr and Glocks that broke when the slide was dropped on a round in the chamber, both new pistols.
Do it at your own risk.

PO2Hammer
May 26, 2011, 09:21 PM
Where in a HK USP manual does it say its ok to chamber load?
It doesn't.
It was an original spec. (military spec. IIRC) for the pistol that it be able to handle that. I will look for the reference on that. IIRC, it was from one of the HKPro links.

What do the Beretta and USP have in common that allows that?
The long external extractor with the pivot point well behind the breach face. That allows the extractor to pivot less (in angle) to get over the rims.

Ben86
May 26, 2011, 10:50 PM
I think the idea is to get one in the chamber without having to load the mag, rack a round, remove the mag, top it off, and reinsert it again (which always felt like a runaround to me).

Not me. I usually have an extra mag on hand that I only put a single cartridge in to chamber, then eject the magazine and insert the full mag.

Effigy
May 26, 2011, 11:29 PM
So you think it's convenient to carry an extra mag with only one round...?

PO2Hammer
May 26, 2011, 11:51 PM
I don't think he's really talking about carrying (CCW) a single round mag, do you?

1SOW
May 27, 2011, 12:02 AM
I have a CZ75B that I handloaded 3 empty cases with primers to fire.--no problem

Less than a week later my extractor claw snapped off---coincidence? I don't think it is.

railroader
May 27, 2011, 12:06 AM
My ruger manual says it's fine to drop a round in the chamber then drop the slide. I like that feature. It's the gun I keep loaded at home. I can unload it and go shooting. When I get home I can just drop in the round and put the loaded mag in the gun. If I kept reloading the same rounds from the mag I probably would get bullet set back after awhile. I don't dropping it in the chamber.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2011, 12:10 AM
Seems somehow relevant to me today that I attended a talk by Gordon Graham, former CHP officer, lawyer and risk analysis manager. He said (paraphrasing) that the first time you do something is as dangerous as the next time you do it. Just because you didn't fall off the ladder the last 100 times does not mean the risk of falling has been eliminated. By that reasoning no one can reasonably assert that only chamber loading a few times is OK. Murphy's Law.

1stmarine
May 27, 2011, 12:23 AM
7+1. After I wipe off the gun drop the +1 in the chamber slam it and then slide
the mag. I have been doing that for 25 years and never had an issue.
I take care of all my systems but I am not paranoid about this. I do preventive maintenance every 5-6K rounds and always use quality parts.
The 1911 was designed to take a beating like landing on a beach face down to get bore full of wet sand and still shoot well.

Ben86
May 27, 2011, 07:29 AM
If I kept reloading the same rounds from the mag I probably would get bullet set back after awhile.

You can still get bullet setback from dropping one in the chamber. Just alternate the rounds you chamber to prevent an excessive amount of damage from happening to any one round. Then replace your carry ammunition every 1-2 years.

Scimmia
May 27, 2011, 09:41 AM
Seems somehow relevant to me today that I attended a talk by Gordon Graham, former CHP officer, lawyer and risk analysis manager. He said (paraphrasing) that the first time you do something is as dangerous as the next time you do it. Just because you didn't fall off the ladder the last 100 times does not mean the risk of falling has been eliminated. By that reasoning no one can reasonably assert that only chamber loading a few times is OK. Murphy's Law.
This is completely different. In this case, we're talking about wear on the extractor which is cumulatively a risk, not the risk of an individual instance.

Toforo
May 27, 2011, 09:53 AM
At the Pistol range the other day a member was doing a test on his STI 2011. He was going to drop a round in the Chamber and let the slide slam down on it.

Why would someone want to do that?
What kind of "test" was he looking to achieve?
What kind of results was he looking for?

Drail
May 27, 2011, 12:10 PM
It was a test to see how "hard" the extractor was. If it breaks it's too hard. If it doesn't break it's now knocked out of adjustment. (I'm kidding) People do this because some "expert" told them it was absolutely OK and it won't hurt anything. A 1911 extractor is a precision spring. It's only designed to flex a little bit and maintain consistent tension on the case rim (controlled round feed) . Bend it too far (snap it over a case rim) and you are abusing it. Maybe it will break now and maybe it will break later.

Skylerbone
May 27, 2011, 01:59 PM
Every individual instance matters. Load 15 grains of Titegroup instead of 5 and the first round could be the last. Another sample may run 100 rounds but we have no idea when failure will occur. Damage and failure are two different things. We can surmise damage will occur every time and of course that will be cumulative but breakage will in this case be random and therefore unpredictable. Maybe the first time maybe 10 years from now. Not taking the risk is what removes the risk.

Zerodefect
May 27, 2011, 09:32 PM
I think the idea is to get one in the chamber without having to load the mag, rack a round, remove the mag, top it off, and reinsert it again (which always felt like a runaround to me). I wish they would just design the extractor to facilitate dropping in a round, but if it's not designed for that you should operate the according to its design and load from the mag.

Pure laziness.

5 seconds tops, to do it the right way.

(ETA: I'm not calling anyone lazy. I'm calling the technique of dropping one in the chamber instead of mag feeding lazy)

skolten
May 29, 2011, 05:48 AM
Why would someone want to do that?
What kind of "test" was he looking to achieve?
What kind of results was he looking for?

It was a Single round that gave problems for what ever reason, as it would not load from the mag in the normal way the gun cycles, so he dropped it in the chamber. let the slide go and fired the gun. The discussion was, is dropping the slide on the round going to harm the gun.....

rogerjames
May 29, 2011, 06:07 AM
What is the purpose for doing this in this in the first place? Is it to carry fully loaded mag + 1? Good question though, I've never considered the mechanics. The way I see it... if I really need that +1, I probably need a bigger gun, a better plan, or a partner:D

SlamFire1
May 29, 2011, 07:06 AM
To drop the slide on a chambered round will flex the extractor past its designed limits. It might be ok for a couple of times but I sure would not do it, as it will loosen extractor tension. Any thoughts on this ???

Load from the magazine. And that includes controlled round feed rifles. Your extractor will last longer in all of these mechanisms if you feed from the magazine.

skolten
May 29, 2011, 07:17 AM
Thanks Slamfire, that was my point to him when he did it...Case closed.:)

kingcheese
May 29, 2011, 09:03 AM
with a lot of new gun owners it is a common practice, i dont exactly like the idea because it is possible for the gun to go off, not real likely, and i will probably never see it happen, but still...

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