5.45 vs. 7.62 for Urban Defense


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snakyjake
May 26, 2011, 04:49 PM
Which is better 5.45x39 vs. 7.62x39 for personal urban defense: distance within 100 yards, penetrating sheet metal (automobiles), buildings (concrete, wood & sheetrock), personal armor (ballistic vest), and offers greatest wound?

An example situation might be good guy inside a house, enemy on the outside taking cover behind another house, building, wooded brush, or car. More concerned with urban defense than range or cost.

Thanks,
Jake

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M1key
May 26, 2011, 04:52 PM
Okay, who wants to go first?

:cool:

M

rcmodel
May 26, 2011, 04:53 PM
If you shoot some guy 100 yards away with either one?
You better pray for a total breakdown of civilization as we know it.

Otherwise, you will be arrested and charged with murder.

It will be very hard to claim self defense if the BG is 100 yards away.

rc

JustinJ
May 26, 2011, 05:02 PM
Even though this is a very redundant thread I'll bite and actually answer the question.

I assume you mean 7.62 x 39. There is no question this round has better penetration and wound characteristics than a 5.45. Of course a 7.62 x 51 and 54 does as well. The primary advantages of 5.45, and main reason for its adoption, is easier control in full auto and it is much lighter so more ammo can be carried.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 26, 2011, 05:05 PM
7.62x25? 7.62x39? 7.62x51? 7.62x54? 7.62x63? Exactly which 7.62 round did you have in mind for this comparison?

And your answer regardless is: It depends; but training is about a thousand times more important than caliber.

HGUNHNTR
May 26, 2011, 05:27 PM
^ No doubt. Firearms training and physical training as well at that point. I would guess that more THR'ers are more prepared gear wise, than in firearms and physical fitness. Just a guess.

Effigy
May 26, 2011, 05:31 PM
The wounding argument is debatable (see 9mm vs .45 for a similar debate), but the 7.62x39 is proven to have better penetration through barriers than 5.45x39 or 5.56x45. Personally I think the 7.62 would also have better terminal performance, but I don't have any "proof" to back that opinion.

Robert
May 26, 2011, 05:33 PM
More concerned with urban warfare
Why?
but training is about a thousand times more important than caliber.
Gear and caliber do not make up for a lack of training.
It will be very hard to claim self defense if the BG is 100 yards away.

Come on RC, zombies can't afford lawyers. Sheesh.
You better pray for a total breakdown of civilization as we know it.
Yup. And we don't do SHTF, Zombie, or EOTWAWKI threads.

General Geoff
May 26, 2011, 05:40 PM
It will be very hard to claim self defense if the BG is 100 yards away.

Depends on if the BG is a credible threat from 100 yards away. If he's taking shots at you, he certainly is.

Gord
May 26, 2011, 05:47 PM
I can tell you from experience that the roadblock guards' 12-gauge slugs have been very effective at stopping vehicles trying to get into my personal fiefdom (it used to be my local mall, but now I rule it from a throne of my enemies' skulls as King Grimthorr) without authorization.

More concerned with urban warfare

No, man, that's for the minion death squads to take care of. You gotta think bigger or you're never gonna get anywhere once the balloon goes up.

M1key
May 26, 2011, 05:48 PM
+1 What the General sez...

Training, schmaining...Joe Citizen may only get or need one shot.

0-100 yards the 7.62X39 will hit harder, penetrate heavy barriers better than 5.45.

The 5.45 would begin to shine at ranges beyond 200 yards. Flatter trajectory and better inherent accuracy, increasing likelyhood of hits on target.

Good luck.

M

BobTheTomato
May 26, 2011, 05:56 PM
7.62x63 with black tip AP. That should do the trick.

amprecon
May 26, 2011, 05:58 PM
5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

7.62 millimeter = 0.3 inch, 123gr. X 2400fps = ~1500ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

You be the judge
.22's are for squirrel huntin', .21's are for......well you get the picture. I'll go with a .30 over a .22 any day, I don't care how fast its goin', but that's just me.

General Geoff
May 26, 2011, 06:19 PM
5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle


I was under the impression that 5.45 was loaded closer to 3,000fps muzzle velocity..

Shawn Dodson
May 26, 2011, 06:52 PM
I believe an SKS is a perfect, inexpensive EPR (Emergency Preparedness Rifle). I have two that I keep in the event of a breakdown in civil order, such as after a hurricane.

7.62x39mm will reliably penetrate car doors & windshields with cheap ($5.00/20 rd box) Walmart ammo, whereas 5.56x45mm requires expensive ($20.00+/20 rd box) mail order ammo to achieve the same capability. (I realize the OP is inquiring about 5.45x39mm. Ammo choices are limited for this cartridge.)

Stripper clips can be purchased for $20.00/100, which is substantially cheaper than 5.56x45 magazine.

It doesn't cost an arm & leg to build a cache of 200-500 rds of 7.62x39 for "just in case."

The SKS has hardly any recoil. The military stock fits just about anyone. It has more than enough accuracy for an EPR.

No need to invest a whole bunch of $$$. Just buy an SKS, a sight adjustment tool, and stripper clips, and a sling. Keep it stock military and simply learn how to shoot it proficiently out to 200 yards.

smurf hunter
May 26, 2011, 07:00 PM
For all the SKS/AK fans, you could instead carry a dusty old 30-30 lever gun with approximate same ballistics and draw much less attention during a "without rule of law" scenario. Just my $0.02

PTK
May 26, 2011, 07:03 PM
I assume you mean 7.62 x 39. There is no question this round has better penetration and wound characteristics than a 5.45.

I disagree. With FMJ military surplus, the 5.45 is far better. For example, 5.45x39 Bulgarian surplus ammo (at $0.11/rd) creates a similar wound profile as Federal 7.62x39 JSP ammo (at $1.15/rd).

5.45x39 gelatin results (http://www.brassfetcher.com/545x39mmBulgarian53grFMJ.html)
7.62x39 gelatin results (http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x39mm123grFederalHiShok.html)


For what it's worth, with both using FMJ, while 7.62x39 has superior penetration, the wound channel is a joke compared to 5.45x39 FMJ.

Compare the above still photos of 5.45 surplus to the wound channel shown in gelatin in this video: 7.62x39 FMJ gel test video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmu7yTVidig).


Just my $0.02. ;)

TexasRifleman
May 26, 2011, 07:05 PM
More concerned with urban warfare than range or cost.

No more of that sort of silliness or the thread won't stay open. It's absolutely realistic to talk about using a rifle for home defense, and maybe even at range out in the country somewhere, but we're not gonna go down the urban warfare path.

Fair warning OK? Please keep it civil and realistic.

GunsBeerFreedom
May 26, 2011, 08:54 PM
Suppose the question were framed differntly? Like, say we're speaking about the effectiveness of the Russian military units in urban environments? And I and other members were to discuss it in that manner?

And to stay on topic, from a ballistic standpoint it depends on the loading.

Gord
May 27, 2011, 12:07 AM
Suppose the question were framed differntly? Like, say we're speaking about the effectiveness of the Russian military units in urban environments? And I and other members were to discuss it in that manner?

Then the thread would get locked as off-topic. :)

snakyjake
May 27, 2011, 12:08 AM
Whew! Gets hot in here pretty quick...

To clarify, 7.62x39 in the AK platform.

I understand training, probability, legality, etc. But when it comes to buying my rifle, I have to make a caliber choice, and narrowed it down to the two.

I'll re-edit my question to ask for urban defense. I'm thinking of a defensive situation when the threat is outside my home, and the bad guy is covering behind a car, a brick/concrete wall, a steel BBQ, or plywood, or whatever else can be improvised.

I think the answer is as some have written: 7.62x39 penetrates hard barrier better than the 5.45. Just as long as I'm not giving up significant wound damage for hard barrier, I think I'll go with the 7.62x39.

Thanks,
Jake

Cal-gun Fan
May 27, 2011, 01:13 AM
Whew! Gets hot in here pretty quick...

To clarify, 7.62x39 in the AK platform.

I understand training, probability, legality, etc. But when it comes to buying my rifle, I have to make a caliber choice, and narrowed it down to the two.

I'll re-edit my question to ask for urban defense. I'm thinking of a defensive situation when the threat is outside my home, and the bad guy is covering behind a car, a brick/concrete wall, a steel BBQ, or plywood, or whatever else can be improvised.

I think the answer is as some have written: 7.62x39 penetrates hard barrier better than the 5.45. Just as long as I'm not giving up significant wound damage for hard barrier, I think I'll go with the 7.62x39.

Thanks,
Jake
It gets hot frankly because it is a dorky question :P

"Urban warfare/defense"-please...what will you need to "defend" against?
If you want to talk about home defense, an AK is not a good choice in my opinion and probably in actuality. And if you go spraying rounds around in an urban environment, you're liable to have some over penetration effects and possibly risk injuring your neighbors.

And if the threat is outside of your home...it isn't really a threat is it? Chances are if you chased someone out of your house, they aren't going to try to siege the place. And chances are even stronger they won't go with the goal of attacking you in your house from the outside. That is a bit silly to be honest :)

gunnutery
May 27, 2011, 01:25 AM
Welcome to THR. I usually don't like playing devil's advocate, but I would tend to think that instead of one thug or even a group of thugs would rather attack you when you reach the BBQ/car/plywood/etc instead of launch a full out assault of your house.

PTK, I think in a defensive situation, this is much more impressive:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Manufacturing%20123gr%20Hornady%20V-Max.html

snakyjake
May 27, 2011, 01:37 AM
It gets hot frankly because it is a dorky question :P

"Urban warfare/defense"-please...what will you need to "defend" against?
If you want to talk about home defense, an AK is not a good choice in my opinion and probably in actuality. And if you go spraying rounds around in an urban environment, you're liable to have some over penetration effects and possibly risk injuring your neighbors.

And if the threat is outside of your home...it isn't really a threat is it? Chances are if you chased someone out of your house, they aren't going to try to siege the place. And chances are even stronger they won't go with the goal of attacking you in your house from the outside. That is a bit silly to be honest :)

I actually have been threatened from inside my home by someone who said they were outside my house.

Anyways, the reasons aren't important. But to understand the ballistics, I want to understand what the rounds are designed for and best at. There's different rounds for different reasons.

Jake

gunnutery
May 27, 2011, 01:44 AM
I actually have been threatened from inside my home by someone who said they were outside my house.

In that case: get your gun, make it ready, find a good defensable position where the bad guy can't see you, call police and inform them of the problem and tell them you're armed and ready to defend yourself if the BG comes in.

You're already in your "castle," going out to the fight gives the BG the advantage.

Gig 'em
May 27, 2011, 01:46 AM
Jeff65, well said. As for the whole topic...wow...civilian urban warfare is a big stretch in our current society. Home and personal defense, on the other hand is right up the our alley. I'll almost always take a 30 cal over something smaller, but that is me. 7.62x39 would overpenetrate excessively in a home defense situation though. Good luck with whatever you decide. Thanks
-Gig 'em-

PTK
May 27, 2011, 07:21 AM
Welcome to THR. I usually don't like playing devil's advocate, but I would tend to think that instead of one thug or even a group of thugs would rather attack you when you reach the BBQ/car/plywood/etc instead of launch a full out assault of your house.

PTK, I think in a defensive situation, this is much more impressive:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Manufacturing%20123gr%20Hornady%20V-Max.html
Just under 12" penetration is.... abysmal. That's the sort of performance one would expect from, for example, a Glaser-style rifle projectile. My .45 ACP JHP loads penetrate more than that while still giving quite a large (though nowhere near that large) wound cavity. If given the choice, I'd rather have more penetration instead of amazing wound cavity only a few inches in.


And, again, $0.11/rd versus (in this case) $0.67/rd. And in your exact example, the 7.62x39 exhibits less damage, less penetration, etc., than the 5.45x39 surplus. ;)

Cal-gun Fan
May 27, 2011, 09:31 AM
Wait a minute. There are drive by shootings fairly regular even in my area. That's attacking you from outside your house isn't it? I wouldn't respond with a rifle but I'd certainly use a shotgun. It isn't entirely "silly" to consider that. And there have been a very few cases where rifles were useful in urban settings. They are very rare but they do happen. The LA riots and Katrina are two examples. More specifically the looting by gangs after Katrina was a situation that called for an SKS or some other battle carbine IMO especially if everyone else in your neighborhood was gone elsewhere.

Yeah, but a driveby is probably going to happen fast enough that you'd be better to grab your shotgun and go to the farthest room from the street. I was speaking more to the concept of an organized siege of sorts.

Robert
May 27, 2011, 09:42 AM
Check out Box of Truth for some interesting, if non scientific, penetration testing.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Cal-gun Fan
May 27, 2011, 10:08 AM
I know a guy who was killed by his nephew who took his SKS to the guy's trailer and shot it up from the outside until it looked like Swiss cheese. He had a few 30 round mags and he emptied them all. I don't remember the exact round count but it was a lot. He was mad the guy wouldn't return some stuff he loaned him. Attacks from outside do happen. Strangely though the guy's wife survived the ordeal without a scratch by hiding in a closet. I think the guy I knew must have drawn fire away from her in order to save her life. He was a jerk but not that big of a jerk. He would have tried to save his wife I'm sure. That was one guy in an urban setting too. If the guy inside would have had a good shotgun I think he would have done pretty well in defending himself. I don't think he had anything though. It's been a while back so I'm not real clear on the details.

Whoah...that really is an interesting situation. Must have been a lot of money or the guy had some serious mental issues.
I think I would overall prefer a shotgun or pistol in any sort of realistic situation. Does that mean I wouldn't grab a rifle if there was one in my vicinity? Hell no :) I just think that you shouldn't plan for a situation like this as if its a tactical urban combat scenario thing.

JustinJ
May 27, 2011, 10:55 AM
There have been more "best gun or caliber for end of the world" threads than one can count so I don't see why this one is getting so much flak for being implausible. Personally i'm a little more bothered that it is apparently okay now to provide off topic responses about training when someone asks a ballistics question. High velocity .22 vs slower .30 thread is about as tired as can be so i dont particulary care for it but i think this criticism is unfair.

dprice3844444
May 27, 2011, 11:04 AM
http://m14forum.com/geedunk/98682-u-s-marines-ammo-penetration-test.html

maybe this will answer some of your questions,enjoy

nathan
May 27, 2011, 11:06 AM
Either of one is great. Important thing is you hit the target and live another day.

gunnutery
May 27, 2011, 01:39 PM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S%20Ma...y%20V-Max.html
Just under 12" penetration is.... abysmal. That's the sort of performance one would expect from, for example, a Glaser-style rifle projectile. My .45 ACP JHP loads penetrate more than that while still giving quite a large (though nowhere near that large) wound cavity. If given the choice, I'd rather have more penetration instead of amazing wound cavity only a few inches in.


And, again, $0.11/rd versus (in this case) $0.67/rd. And in your exact example, the 7.62x39 exhibits less damage, less penetration, etc., than the 5.45x39 surplus.


why is that abysmal? Because the FBI says so? 12 inches is enough to hit vital organs, plus it dumped all of it's energy into a human sized target.

Cal-gun Fan
May 27, 2011, 02:05 PM
There have been more "best gun or caliber for end of the world" threads than one can count so I don't see why this one is getting so much flak for being implausible. Personally i'm a little more bothered that it is apparently okay now to provide off topic responses about training when someone asks a ballistics question. High velocity .22 vs slower .30 thread is about as tired as can be so i dont particulary care for it but i think this criticism is unfair.
Because people are tired of it first and second because of his wording. This is the high road. I think most people see talk about urban warfare and such as the low road, no offense to the OP. It is fun to fantasize, but I personally don't think it belongs on this forum

jmr40
May 27, 2011, 02:14 PM
5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

I was under the impression that 5.45 was loaded closer to 3,000fps muzzle velocity..

It is actually a bit above 3100 fps, closer to 3200 fps with some loads.

At home defense ranges a good 223 soft point is pretty wicked. They are still very effective at moderate ranges of 200-300 yards as well against human targets. You don't need a cartridge designed for moose hunting to kill a man.

The larger 7.62 calibers with their heavier bullets don't kill humans any deader. At least not at the ranges encountered 99% of the time. They do offer better penetration against barriers and some offer better long range performance. Neither of those are a concern to me and how I would use a rifle to defend myself.

amprecon
May 27, 2011, 02:52 PM
The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses.

amprecon
May 27, 2011, 03:02 PM
5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle
Alright, give it 3100fps you'll get ~1194ft lbs vs. ~1500ft lbs

You make the call.

JustinJ
May 27, 2011, 03:41 PM
"Because people are tired of it first and second because of his wording. This is the high road. I think most people see talk about urban warfare and such as the low road, no offense to the OP. It is fun to fantasize, but I personally don't think it belongs on this forum"

But my point is his thread is no different than many others so why is it being singled out? His wording could be better but it doesn't imply any sort of intent. I don't see theoretical talk about urban warfare as any more "low road" than any other talk about military uses of firearms.

"The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses."

Doesnt change the fact that nothing about .22 vs .30 is gona be said that hasn't been said a million times before.

sixgunner455
May 27, 2011, 03:56 PM
What is best for defense? Hit your target.

Whether you are shooting a rabbit, Bambi's mom, a dove, a rabid skunk, a pitbull attached to your leg, a home invader intent on robbery/rapine/murder, a crack addict trying to gut you and take your wallet outside a mall, restaurant or theater, invading hordes of whatever trying to take over wherever you live, or protecting your armed camp in the zombie apocalypse - the only thing that really matters is hitting your target.

Not what you're shooting, nor what caliber it is, nor what shape the bullet takes. First, hit the target.

In preparation for such things, buy a gun. Buy one that you like, preferably. Buy lots of ammunition, and use lots of it learning to efficiently and effectively employ your weapon - learn to hit your target.

Then, practice hitting targets.

Sebastian the Ibis
May 27, 2011, 04:20 PM
Well the Soviet Union had to make this choice about 40 years ago, and at great expense they converted to 5.45 from 7.62x39.

Their ideas about economics may have been lacking, but they were very very good at developing small arms.

RX-178
May 27, 2011, 04:29 PM
I prefer the 7.62x39mm rounds over the 5.45.

The 5.45 has superior range, and performance at range, but in an Urban Defense situation that the OP is asking about, there's no need to sacrifice the extra stopping power of the 7.62 rounds.

amprecon
May 27, 2011, 05:13 PM
"The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses."

Doesnt change the fact that nothing about .22 vs .30 is gona be said that hasn't been said a million times before.

Your not obliged to read or reply in any way then......

Sky
May 27, 2011, 05:23 PM
Many of the same topics get asked and discussed. A forum is where ideas are shared, discussed and debated with elements of both truth and total hearsay mixed with an occasional fantasy.

If people ever decide "it ain't worth talking/typing about" then we just make an index card for THR and not let anyone post; just read. New members come here all the time and almost everything is new to them....Welcome....

I come here for knowledge and new thoughts; usually not disappointed on either front. Those who believe something bad will never happen good for them. Those who believe there is a booooggar bear around the corner waiting for them then good for them also. Whatever the reasoning and motivation for a particular thought train then so be it. I walk in my shoes not someone Else's but am interested in the sounds you make as you walk through life for I might learn something or acquire a different thought or way of looking at something. If someone is not interested in my sounds then don't listen.

Hummmm Both rounds are good and the little SKS I have is a joy to shoot. Open iron sights and very little recoil so rounds on target ain't a problem. The only thing I am not in love with is the cleaning of the weapon after shooting corrosive ammo. But, $189 for 1120 rounds of 7.62x39 brass cased kinda makes me feel better. Good luck on whatever you decide. Gotta be better than chunking rocks!

JustinJ
May 27, 2011, 06:04 PM
A search of 5.45 and 7.62 turns up 388 posts and nothing new has been said this time around. I tend to think the board would prove more useful and enjoyable by not repeating the same things over and over again but that's just me.

LemmyCaution
May 27, 2011, 06:05 PM
I actually have been threatened from inside my home by someone who said they were outside my house.

Being verbally threatened is not a de facto justification for the use of lethal force. There generally has to be an imminent threat of mortal danger that passes the 'reasonable person' test, though this varies greatly by jurisdiction.

In your case above, someone who 'says they are outside your house' (presumably on the phone or other electronic medium) would not likely pass that hurdle.

Some empty handed jack wagon standing in your yard saying he's going to kill you is not an imminent threat, if you are inside. The verbal threat is not enough to justify lethal force.

benEzra
May 27, 2011, 08:42 PM
For actual civilian defense of home in an urban or suburban area, I think 5.45x39 has a slight edge, primarily because excessive penetration of building materials is not a virtue in a typical home-defense scenario. 5.45x39 is a bit more like .223 in that regard. Neither is a bad caliber, but you do have to select ammunition with your home's surroundings in mind. I own a 7.62x39mm AK (and like it) but would probably go with 5.45 if I were going to buy another.

I also like the fact that 5.45x39mm is lighter (loaded 7.62x39mm steel magazines weigh nearly two pounds each).

For a gun that might need to be a dual-purpose hunting and HD carbine, though, 7.62x39 wins in that scenario since it is ballistically rather similar to a .30-30 Winchester, and the 154-grain softpoints are reportedly pretty decent deer loads.

Ignition Override
May 27, 2011, 09:46 PM
A guy in Argentina experienced a steady, but gradual social collapse during very high inflation years ago.
What might seem disappointing is what people don't expect.

He states that there will almost never be a guy walking towards you or your home who looks like a bad guy.
His main point was that people will find sneaky, and subtle ways to cheat and deceive you, in order to take advantage.

Correct me if my memory from two weeks ago is mistaken, but this guy seems to find the need for any weapon-if at all-other than a handgun comical.
He apparently saw nothing that resembles even a small bit of the Road Warrior or the many dozens of post-apocalyptic movies on late-night Cinemax, Showtime etc.

You might check "Surviving in Argentina, life in A. after the 2001 crisis", by Fernando "FerFal" Aguirre.

SharpsDressedMan
May 27, 2011, 09:54 PM
Perhaps this Argentine fellow should spend some time in Mexico in the violent places the drug wars are going on. Any gun, and possibly a rifle, might be the only thing that gets one out alive of a bad situation. Of course, few innocent people are armed, so the result is mostly innocent people slaughtered. But the presence of a DEFENSIVE long gun MIGHT have changed a few of those deaths. Not all societies are the same during a collapse or economic challenge (remember the LA riots?).

sixgunner455
May 28, 2011, 05:50 AM
Ignition Overide, your memory is mistaken. Fernando's handle on most boards is "FerFAL" for a reason - his preferred and recommended long gun is the FAL, especially one with a folding stock (so it will fit more places when not being used, and can be carried more easily). For packing around and discretely being armed, he recommends high capacity handguns. For really getting serious, he recommends a battle rifle that will go through stuff, is rugged, has lots of bullets, etc, etc.

Most of what he talks about is personal protection strategies and tactics, not weapons.

Sky
May 28, 2011, 07:07 AM
http://www.rapidtrends.com/surving-argentinas-economic-collapse-part-1-3/

is an overview of the book on Argentina. Excellent

lizziedog1
May 28, 2011, 08:12 AM
Just get something that fires 50BMG. That way you can get the BG when he turns on to your street. Heck, he doesn't even have to get out of his car.:confused:

Sky
May 28, 2011, 08:53 AM
Funny how when a population is armed crime goes down.

Op you can get the SKS for about $300 and the ammo is cheap. Not all shoot as good as others but if you get a good one then you will not feel inadequate. 10 round standard mag or u can get a Tapco 20 rounder mag for about $17. Good cheap fun rifle if you can shoot iron sights. Just don't try to make it something it is not. Ammo at 6 cents a round allows mucho range time while developing a solid skill set with the weapon. Yes there are others that will shoot the 7.62x39.

I thought I would like to get an upper for one of the ARs chambered in that round but heck I have a complete rifle that I can shoot and abuse and not worry I am breaking the bank with every little scratch or shooting corrosive ammo. The only change I am doing for mine is the acquisition of a couple of Tapco mags and the Murray firing pin with the return spring. Mags I do not really need but I have always been a "more the better" kinda guy because when hunting it is easier for me to carry a couple of loaded mags instead of a box of ammo.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

nathan
May 28, 2011, 11:53 AM
Remember back in the 1920-30s the cops were using .38 Special with wadcutters. They go the job killing badguys. Although not as sophiscated as what bullets are now, important thing is hitting what you intend to destroy.

Art Eatman
May 28, 2011, 03:34 PM
Not much on-topic commentary here in Page 3. But, that's quite normal. :D

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