Glock shooting left...Move sights?


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BlackCoffee
May 26, 2011, 07:14 PM
Is there any hard rule that says a shooter who is making really good groups at 3-15yds less than the size of your hand -but the group is almost solid to the left of center line. Of a qualifying course zero rounds went to the right of the centerline. At 25yds the spread to the left opens up to off the scoring section.

The "experts" refuse to adjust my sights. Telling me it's my fault. Too much of this or too little of that. Glock is perfect it must be me.

So again I ask is there any rule That says a marksman shouldn't adjust the sites of a weapon to suit them? All i need is 2" at 25yds.

Might seam trivial to keyboard marksmen but this could be my life or livelyhood. It's what I am forced to carry (Glock :(. Bumping an old thread since it came up on a search.

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JohnBiltz
May 26, 2011, 08:34 PM
Its common with Glocks to shoot left. What cured it for me was putting more finger on the trigger. I saw a video where it was claimed a stronger grip with the non shooting hand would cure it but by then I had already made my adjustment

W.E.G.
May 26, 2011, 09:35 PM
Adjust the sight, or hold off.

Nothing complicated about it, and you don't have to change the way you naturally hold the gun.

BlackCoffee
May 26, 2011, 10:34 PM
"experts" told me the opposite that the shooting hand was too strong.

Physics tells me that the counter clockwise rotation of the weapon due to trigger overtravel after breaking from 6lbs of pull causes the left shot placement. Cure- zero overtravel. Very light trigger or just adjust the sights.

Overtravel is just due to a Glock design.
Lighter trigger isn't alowed.

So again I am left with wanting the sights moved slightly. What's the harm?

4th option: go back to school and find another career.

Dogguy
May 26, 2011, 10:41 PM
I shoot Glocks low and left as well. I've shot Glocks for over 20 years and I still shoot low left at the beginning of a range session. I have to concentrate on the trigger more with the Glock than I do with other handguns. Once I start thinking about what my finger is doing on the trigger, I start hitting center target.

And...there is no rule that says you shouldn't adjust the sights on a handgun so that point of impact is at point of aim. The best thing to do is get good control of the trigger first and then adjust sights to move the group. Don't listen to self-appointed "experts" who say otherwise.

9mmepiphany
May 26, 2011, 11:18 PM
Bumping an old thread since it came up on a search
This thread is 5 years old

I'm going to move all the post from today into a new post

9mmepiphany
May 26, 2011, 11:28 PM
Is there any hard rule
I doubt there is a hard rule per se, but a general rule is that you should not move your sights a lessor distance than the group you are able to shoot.

At 3-15 yards, you should be able to shoot groups of <1"-<2" depending on the distance. I train my students to shoot into 1" at 5-7 yards to test their ability to see sight alignment and control they triggers. Being about to shoot a tighter group also gives more creditability when complaining to instructors about adjusting sights also.

The most common cause, once you've eliminated poor trigger control, of shooting away from the strong hand is too tight of a grip or squeezing the grip as you press the trigger

VA27
May 26, 2011, 11:33 PM
Everyone's grip strength is different (Glocks are especially sensitive to differences in grip pressure, so your grip pressure needs to be the same from shot to shot for best consistency), everyone's eyes are different. The sights are adjustable, move them. Your bullets should go to the point of aim, not somewhere else. Your 'experts' are full of it.

BlackCoffee
May 27, 2011, 09:27 AM
I agree that if I took my time and had a few warm up rounds and really focus that I can shoot more towards center but still to the left. Which is ok for the range. For duty though and with a badguy coming with intent to harm me I just might not have time to warm up or really focus on a perfect shot. I need to be know that when I pull a weapon and discharge it that it's for me.

With a dialed in sights I can shot near 300 scores. Took topgun award in mandate.

BlackCoffee
May 27, 2011, 09:35 AM
My grouping is solid. Ive been shooting weapons and bows for nearly 20yrs. 3rd award Marine expert, platoon highshooter, mandate top gun, and a recent middle of the group placement at a NRA 3gun tpc event. Almost all 0 shots.

Thanks for letting me vent and the advice.

Steve C
May 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
Common reason for shooting left for a right handed shooter with a DA type trigger is applying pressure with the rigger finger that moves the gun to the left for a right handed shooter. For starters you need a good grip that aligns the bore axis with your arm. You need to do 2 things, one is to press the trigger directly to the rear in line with the bore, two is to keep your finger away from the side of the pistol so you don't push the gun to the left.

Now you can adjust your sights to correct your error or simply aim to the right in the first place though is is better to correct the error. Look at it this way, if you are a golfer and always sliced to the left would you simply hit to the right of the green hoping that your slice put the ball where you wanted or would it be better to get rid of he slice?

I had a friend that adjusted his sights to fix the shooting left problem for him. He asked me to sight in his gun to see if it was the gun or him. For me his gun shot about 6" to the right at 25 yds so when the sights where put back to center that's where it shot for me. His gun had adjustable sights and not the typical fixe Glock sights you'd need a sight pusher or hammer to move.

Cherokee
May 27, 2011, 10:24 AM
BC - This is your life, or maybe some elses, that will depend on your ability to draw and shoot a solid first shot. I would adjust the sights. If it develops that you "correct" whatever the experts say you are doing with that gun, you can move the sights again. YMMV

KodiakBeer
May 27, 2011, 01:31 PM
Adjust your sights. What "expert" is telling you not to? If you later make a grip or finger adjustment that cures the problem (you're now shooting to the right), then drift them back.

There's no such thing as Glock "perfection". The triggers are about as awful as can be found on any handgun in the world. Do whatever you have to do to make up for the bad trigger.

Sebastian the Ibis
May 27, 2011, 03:14 PM
Have you taken a look at your sights to confirm they are aligned correctly? I complained about the same thing once, the guy at the gun store told me it was me - then I showed him that that rear sight was obviously 1-2 mm to the left. His face went red, and he fixed it. At that point my groups went from 4 inches left to one inch left.

Now, thousands of rounds later, my rounds are generally on target, although If I miss it is usually low left. For a right handed shooter, if your grip and trigger press are not perfect you will miss low left with a glock. If you are consistently imperfect move the sights, if you are inconsistent - try to become more consistent.

BlackCoffee
May 27, 2011, 03:17 PM
The "experts" are the firearms officer and they will not allow me to adjust them nor will they adjust them. "when you turn the pistol in the next shooter will have problems with your pistol"

"I shot your weapon and t was fine for me".

I'll practice some and try to see if I can hold my
Right wrist diffently and change out back straps. Make some groupings then go above the "expert" to the boss. The least I need to do is CYA on the legal and civil aspect of a round missing my target due to refusal to adjust my sights.

??? There just might be a reason why Glock sells a rear sight tool. Might also mr a reason why adjustable rear match sites are sold/used. Then again I am no "expert".

BlackCoffee
May 27, 2011, 03:26 PM
My groups are constant to the left. Almost never to the rights. I have had wrist surgery, bone shortenting and a plate in my arm.

sargents1
May 27, 2011, 03:52 PM
I had the same issue with my Glock...it seemed to shoot to the left consistently. This is a new gun for me so for a while I thought it was the gun, not me.

Except after a few range sessions I found that when I really concentrated on my form/trigger pull, the gun hits right where I aim. It took a little practice but in the end it was me, not the gun.

Now, if I read correctly, you said that other folks have shot this gun and found it hits at Point of Aim...correct?

When you inspect the rear sight does it look like its been shifted to the left, in other words does it look centered on the slide?

If it shoots correctly for others, and the sights look centered, its probably you, not the gun. If this is the case, your best bet is to double down on your practice/training instead of drifting the sights to correct a problem with your trigger pull technique.

Get yourself a case of ammo and spend some quality time at the shooting range. You might try having someone else watch you while you shoot (or use a video camera) to see where you are going wrong.

If you are used to shooting something else, a Glock can feel weird when you first pick it up. They have a more angled handgrip than other designs, the trigger pull is a different feel etc. But its nothing you cant master with some practice.

Good luck.

murf
May 27, 2011, 03:53 PM
number one priority is center hits. if they won't allow you to adjust the sights, then get comfortable with using a little "kentucky windage". just aim to the right.

murf

Minnesota Wild
May 27, 2011, 03:54 PM
Though I generally agree wih the posts saying to adjust the sights, one question I have is whether you have tried shooting the gun off a rest. If you have and the gun still shot left, I would be more inclined to say to adjust he sights without hesitation. But if you're missing due to a poor grip or other problem with technique, you're doing yourself a disservice to play to your weakness rather than correct the real problem. For anybody that's a golfer, they know that one of the worst things you can do is play to a slice or a hook; they're much better served by correcting the underlying problem.

Again, I don't mean this to say that you do have a problem, but as a military firearms instructor I saw hundreds of students that claimed that guns that I had shot dead POA with were off. The students that were willing to listen to instruction became better shooters. The others left the range thinking that their poor shooting was the weapon, not realizing that the gun was fine and their technique could use some adjusting.

Ole Coot
May 27, 2011, 09:44 PM
Don't mean to sound superior but at 15yds a group that size is kinda big about 5". For what it's worth dry fire some, balance a cartridge on end just behind the front sight and if it don't fall off after you pull the trigger and wait a couple of seconds balance a dime on your front sight and dry fire, aimed under the dime. This is a sure fire way to tighten groups and will give you a better idea if it might be you or the sights. Either way your groups should tighten. Sounds like trigger control and grip but could still be sight alignment. That's my personal opinion.

Red Cent
May 27, 2011, 10:02 PM
I can't balance a dime on my Glock much less through a trigger pull. Lets see some videos of this feat. Yeah, I've seen the one with the revolver.

Zerodefect
May 27, 2011, 10:22 PM
-Get a boresight to double check that your sights are close to straight. This is the best one I've ever used:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=332264

-make sure your useing a proper combat grip. Trigger finger on the trigger properly.

Todd Jarrett gives a bunch of good explanations of grip on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c&playnext=1&list=PLF5CE17711C579847

-shoot left handed. Are the rounds hitting to the right? Then it's technique for sure.

Ole Coot
May 28, 2011, 10:00 AM
Strange, I'm on the wrong side of 65 and can lay a penny across my factory front sight on a Glock g23 without any problem. A cartridge will stand on the flat, not the sight without any problem. I still can do either. I sure wasn't saying you stand the coin on edge. If you don't practice grip and trigger control to get a decent group as well as the gun allows at 15yds try another Glock. If you chose adjust your sights. As you get more experience and your shooting improves you will be adjusting your sights again. I don't have any way to send you a video of an old man pulling the trigger on a Glock with a dime balanced across the front sight but it ain't that hard and don't discount dry fire, grip and trigger control with a handgun. I shoot well enough to satisfy myself and after 60 years of pulling the trigger on a handgun I adjust sights on some of mine only after I constantly shoot a tight group. I just bowed out of this because I have nothing to prove and no more advise to give.

The Lone Haranguer
May 28, 2011, 10:12 AM
I assume there is no operator error. If you're right handed, too little trigger finger (using the very tip of your finger) can push the gun to the left. You may be achieving reasonable groups, but doing the same thing wrong every time consistently. If this is not the case, just move the sight wherever you need it and be done.

BlackCoffee
May 28, 2011, 12:24 PM
Though I generally agree wih the posts saying to adjust the sights, one question I have is whether you have tried shooting the gun off a rest. If you have and the gun still shot left, I would be more inclined to say to adjust he sights without hesitation. But if you're missing due to a poor grip or other problem with technique, you're doing yourself a disservice to play to your weakness rather than correct the real problem. For anybody that's a golfer, they know that one of the worst things you can do is play to a slice or a hook; they're much better served by correcting the underlying problem.

Thanks and I will try that. If I can find that I have a fundamental down wrong and can correct it then that will be great. Natural grip and position is highly important to me. When I need to discharge my weapon it will be under duress. I won't have time to piddle around with "proper grip". If a "proper grip" can be achieved with the angle/shape of the weapon and ergonmics of my hand. Most pistols I own require a bit of sight adjustment (amazing that they are sold with adjustable sights). The only two pistols that didn't need adjustment was a 1911 and various .22lr.



If it shoots correctly for others, and the sights look centered, its probably you, not the gun. If this is the case, your best bet is to double down on your practice/training instead of drifting the sights to correct a problem with your trigger pull technique.

If your given a scoped rifle and laser bore sighted to zero do you refuse to adjust the sights to your shooting position/style?

Some weapons in some peoples hands shoot differently. They key is being able to be CONSENTANT, imo. So much so that I take notes on on every aspect of the prone position, sling position, finger placement, etc when taking 500yrd prone shots with an AR.

If I am very comfortable with my grip, stance, and finger pad to the extent that I can shoot near perfect scores then what more do I need? All I want to do is move the sights a bit to compensate for a Glock trigger in its ****ty design, overtravel, and 6lb pull. Just enough to move my group 1-2" at 15yds.

number one priority is center hits. if they won't allow you to adjust the sights, then get comfortable with using a little "kentucky windage". just aim to the right. I agree for paper targets. On duty in the real world with a badguy coming at me with a weapon I need to beable to quickly react. I don't need to spend that 5/10ths of a second thinking aim a bit to the right.

Don't mean to sound superior but at 15yds a group that size is kinda big about 5". These are not slow acurate shots. This is timed shots and with multiple shoots, Ie two on the left, step left and two on the right. Also this is a stock Glock. No 3.5lb trigger bars. No custom 1911's. With my 1911 and FN I can make 25yd head shots and 50yd body shots.

If you chose adjust your sights. As you get more experience and your shooting improves you will be adjusting your sights again. Thats my point. "IF" then muy shots would still be good shots but to the right. If NOT then my shots would be center mass.

jfrey
May 28, 2011, 05:41 PM
I bought a new G19 and it shoots to the left and high. I fired different loads and shot it from a rest with the same results. It is now back at the mothership to get checked out. Everyone always wants to blame the shooter but I know for a fact "IT AIN'T ME".

If it were me, I would adjust the sights myself and tell no one. In a stressful, defensive situation, Kentucky windage could get you hurt or even killed if you're not careful.

BlackCoffee
May 29, 2011, 09:48 AM
I agree that the leftwards shot placement is, ME. However, since its ME that is carrying the weapon and it is I that will pull the trigger what matters the most is constent shot placement.

Yes, If I was a better shot then perhaps with better technique I could shoot the low budget Glock better. Though I still shoot in the top 3% of my agency.

The issue is, IMO, weapons fit everybody differently. It is why sniper rifles have adjustbale stocks. Its why a skeet gun is fitted to the marksman. Its why they make adjustable sights. Make the weapon work for you and not work around the weapon.. Of course provided you have the proper fundamentals.

Give me a polished 3.5lb Glock trigger with less overtravel and my shots center up. With the heavy 6lb unpolished trigger and sloppy overtravel the round placement ends up a bit to the left.

9mmepiphany
May 29, 2011, 01:55 PM
Yes, If I was a better shot then perhaps with better technique I could shoot the low budget Glock better. Though I still shoot in the top 3% of my agency.
With better technique, you'd be a better shot and be able to shoot any gun better. I was one of the better shots with my agency too, using a less then optimal technique. I just wasn't satisfied when I stopped improving, so I sought out better techniques. I guess it depends on your desire to improve or get left behind...nothing is static in handgunning except the very basic targets

The issue is, IMO, weapons fit everybody differently. It is why sniper rifles have adjustbale stocks. Its why a skeet gun is fitted to the marksman. Its why they make adjustable sights. Make the weapon work for you and not work around the weapon.. Of course provided you have the proper fundamentals.
It sounds like you are confusing platforms and how they are used. Whereas long arms have adjustable/adjusted stocks to fit them to allow you to utilize them more efficiently...the corresponding adjustments on a handgun is the grip/technique...your hands and arms are the stock on a handgun. They are what you adjust to allow you to press the trigger correctly

Give me a polished 3.5lb Glock trigger with less overtravel and my shots center up. With the heavy 6lb unpolished trigger and sloppy overtravel the round placement ends up a bit to the left.
The things that a nicer trigger allows is the ability to shoot faster or the ability to disguise less than optimal technique

918v
May 29, 2011, 02:32 PM
Try one of the new Pach slip on grips. It will make the grip bigger, alter your finger placement, and change POI.

Harley Quinn
May 29, 2011, 02:44 PM
Try one of the new Pach slip on grips. It will make the grip bigger, alter your finger placement, and change POI.

Good point...Then you have to wonder if the person is right or left handed;)

Try shooting it one shot at a time, regrip, laydown pistol, etc...

All have some problems with the Glock it seems, not me :evil:

BlackCoffee
May 30, 2011, 01:26 PM
Thanks again for the solid advice. One big issue is my hourly rate of pay is less than what a single box of ammo cost. My agency doesn't provide any training ammo.

I know that when I really want to make those 25yd shots I do work on a "better" grip. On the range these shots are from the ready position and not from the holster. But on the short ranges when it's draw and fire shots under time the level III holster doesn't allow for the best grip.

So all those $$$ adjustable sights and sight adjustment tools are a waste. All pistols should just be solid fixed sights? Really?

I did have a slip on grip on my gen1 but also had the sights tweaked just a wee bit. I don't know if our "experts" will allow me to add the extra grip. I will try it.

9mmepiphany
May 30, 2011, 03:03 PM
Thanks again for the solid advice. One big issue is my hourly rate of pay is less than what a single box of ammo cost. My agency doesn't provide any training ammo. (1)

I know that when I really want to make those 25yd shots I do work on a "better" grip. On the range these shots are from the ready position and not from the holster. But on the short ranges when it's draw and fire shots under time the level III holster doesn't allow for the best grip. (2)

So all those $$$ adjustable sights and sight adjustment tools are a waste. All pistols should just be solid fixed sights? Really? (3)
(1) Consider the purchase of a .22lr upper. You'll be able to shoot a lot more for less money, while maintaining the same control locations and trigger feel.

(2) Which holster are you issued/using? Any well designed holster (Safariland SLS/ALS) should allow a Master Grip, in the holster, before you start the upward movement of your presentation. Not establishing the correct grip in the holster really compromises the whole process of placing the first shot accurately

(3) Sight adjustment tools, for the current crop of auto pistols, were originally intended for armourers to install and remove sights...that is why they are so expensive, they never intended to sell that many. Most (non-make specific) smiths I know still make sight correction, when a gun had been dropped or bumped, with a hammer and a punch. Most semi-auto pistols, except those used for competition, are better served with fixed sights

BlackCoffee
May 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
Safariland raptor holster. The design fit limits the thumb positon and the method to push button in and rock back causes a slight angle. But I do like the holster. Very quick and natural.

W.E.G.
May 30, 2011, 04:39 PM
Just figure out a way to shoot the scores you want on the qualification course - usually a cakewalk - and realize that any shooting you are likely to be involved in during the course of your employment will have 100 times more to do with who gets off the first shot, than anything that has to do with careful sight alignment, grip minutiae, or group size.

You have 100 times greater chance of being struck by lightning, than ever having to take the "sniper shot" with a handgun in the course of police duty.

9mmepiphany
May 30, 2011, 05:01 PM
Safariland raptor holster. The design fit limits the thumb positon and the method to push button in and rock back causes a slight angle. But I do like the holster. Very quick and natural.

I'm not sure how the release of the hood or rocking back the gun would affect having a grip on the gun. as my experience with the SLS (Sig 226R) has been that it it leaves the thumb in a normal position

I'm getting a hint, from your description, that you're not shooting from a thumbs forward grip. If you are locking you strong thumb down, I can see why you'd be shooting left and also why you'd be tightening your grip as you press the trigger

GLOOB
May 30, 2011, 05:51 PM
I've never adjusted the sights on any pistol. Almost universally, I tend to shoot my semiautos a hair to the left. Even my MKIII, when I shoot rapidly. Since I know it's me, I leave the sights alone.

W.E.G.
May 30, 2011, 06:24 PM
For self-defense purposes, the thumb "locked-down" on the strong hand makes a lot of sense.

So does the "weaver stance."

9mmepiphany
May 30, 2011, 08:27 PM
While it may make more sense, it isn't optimal for accurate rapid repeat shots as it is based on the outdated belief of being able to hold a gun down during recoil.

This was proven in testing in the 80s and is the reason that all leading shooting schools and real life military and LE operator are trained in it's use. While there is still a place for the Weaver, it isn't taught as a primary stance when the shooters are interested in putting accurate hits on a target at speed

BlackCoffee
May 31, 2011, 10:42 AM
My thumbs line up properly. The lock down thumb method just felt unnatural.

The last part of my thumb does not contact the grip while it's holstered. It touch the holster. I have to adjust the grip during the draw. If I use my index finger to push the ALS I have to cant my finger down- I need to refocus on my draw using my index finger.

- accurate shots beyond 20yds are very rare in LE, I'd agree. But backup is probably 5-10min away if my portable radio even transmits to ask for help. So id like to know my weapon will work for me at what ever range is needed.

918v
May 31, 2011, 02:07 PM
Have you tried shooting it off a bench rest to eliminate shooter error? That way you will be able to see if the sights are off.

duns
May 31, 2011, 02:40 PM
"experts" told me the opposite that the shooting hand was too strong.


I think too tight a grip with the strong hand (if you are right handed) could cause the shots to go left. Have you tried using more clamping pressure with the weak hand?

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