FBI Flyers in gun stores


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Fn-P9
May 28, 2011, 03:37 AM
Just got an email from the NRA.....it reads:
FBI OVERBOARD ON SUSPICIOUS CUSTOMER WARNING?: Since the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is responsible for enforcing federal gun laws, dealers and other federal firearm licensees typically contact that agency (or state or local police) when they encounter suspicious customers. So, it raised eyebrows when the FBI began circulating flyers in gun shops and ranges, encouraging owners of those businesses to report suspicious customers to “your local Joint Terrorism Task Force” instead. The flyers first appeared in Connecticut, with a revised version appearing more recently in Utah.

and here is the flyer link: http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/FBInotice00.pdf

This first page is different from the second. One was the revised list.

I find this interesting since I have at one point in time matched nearly all the scary 'suspicious' criteria they say be aware of. What do YOU think :evil:

ps since I admitted to "suspicious activity" Im sure Im on a list now. oh well.

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ants
May 28, 2011, 07:57 AM
Your local Joint Terrorism Task Force includes state and local police, and the BATFE.

That's what makes the NRA's objection so odd. It doesn't matter if you notify local police, the ATF, or your local Joint Terrorism Task Force. It doesn't really matter, report to one or report to all. Big deal.

Unless they just want to bash the FBI.
No problem there, it's actually fun to bash a federal agency.
:p



More important points:

The differences between the first and second flyers is significant, it seems to me.
And, as the OP points out, we all exhibit one trait or another at various times.
It would seem that the exercise of good judgment has been left out of their sage advice.

george d dennis
May 28, 2011, 08:58 AM
that article looks like it was copied out of the f.b.i. s magazine.
the fbi bulletin. theres different articles every month in their
magazine pertaining to law enforcement.

Double Naught Spy
May 28, 2011, 09:27 AM
While I think some of the criteria are a bit hokey, suspicious activity should be reported. To be honest, I don't think some of the list activities are suspicious unless unless combined with multiples of other listed activities.

Some of those that are listed are ones that the gun seller should be using to NOT sell the gun to the person in the first place.

TexasRifleman
May 28, 2011, 10:08 AM
I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?

Few of the recent terror attacks in this country involved firearms, really only the Ft Hood act and they have flatly refused to even call that one terrorism. Are these same flyers being placed where people buy other legal items that WERE used in terror acts? Hertz rent trucks, shoes, fertilizer, and computers for flight simulators come to mind.

Maybe, maybe not, but I think that's the objection to the whole thing. Why are gun buyers people to "keep an extra eye on"? That slow, seemingly harmless, demonization of guns and gun owners continues.

Is it an overreaction by NRA? Maybe, but it's an overreaction to put flyers like this all over gun stores and ranges as well, the things listed are pretty common sense items.

Moving this to General Discussions, there really isn't any Legal content, but it's interesting.

Walkalong
May 28, 2011, 10:36 AM
I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?Agreed. Why guns when any gun that may have been used was insignificant in the outcomes. We have all purchased "waterproof" ammo when purchasing surplus military stuff. We have all bemoaned the government persecuting gun owners, etc, etc, and none of us are terrorists. We just want to buy and shoot our guns without being hassled or painted as "dangerous", "on the edge", and all the other false accusations by the anti gun movement.

Are there some nuts out there? Sure there are, but there are also plenty of good laws to deal with them.

Turning citizens against each other is an old trick of the politicians who would rule you. Don't fall for it.

jimmyraythomason
May 28, 2011, 10:44 AM
Are these same flyers being placed where people buy other legal items that WERE used in terror acts? Hertz rent trucks, shoes, fertilizer, and computers for flight simulators come to mind.
Good point but to be factual,the rental trucks used were Ryder trucks not Hertz.

ants
May 28, 2011, 10:48 AM
I'm not trying to make the NRA bulletin say something it isn't intended to say, but I'm going to do a little work to clarify and emphasize what it does say:
Since the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is responsible for enforcing federal gun laws, dealers and other federal firearm licensees typically contact that agency (or state or local police) when they encounter suspicious customers... [gun shops are asked] ...to report suspicious customers to your local Joint Terrorism Task Force instead.
I hear ya, TX and Walk, and I'm on board with you both.
No argument with the critical point you make. No argument whatsoever.

But I believe the NRA bulletin was focussed on WHO ya gonna call, not the fact that gun shops get the memo.

The NRA often has a bee in its bonnet for the FBI, and this was a chance to take a jab. Whether one interprets the memo your way or mine, the jab is deserved (in my tiny and humble opinion) although I doubt it will make any difference anyway.

Not trying to poke at you guys, we read it differently.

effengee
May 28, 2011, 10:49 AM
I was spouting off about how stupid these indicators are when my wife brought a very valid point to my attention:

This list is biased against women.

Women more often than men will change their appearance, i.e. hair color and/or length, style of hair. Whether or not they wear makeup makes a difference in their appearance. They are MORE likely to not know EVERYTHING there is to know about a particular gun and unlike men, aren't the least bit afraid to ask those who do know. My wife has insisted on paying cash for guns and has even used my credit card to buy ammo! A few times she has asked to be allowed to see if a gun would fit well in her purse for concealed carry purposes and she has also asked about local female shooting groups for her and some friends. And what exactly constitutes an illogical distance to travel to look at guns? We drive for more than an hour to visit our new favorite gun shop.

My wife was even more P-Ohed than I am about this list and thinks they should be putting these lists wherever box cutters are sold.

God I love this woman!

ants
May 28, 2011, 10:54 AM
By golly, I think she's right. They just described my grandmother.

Sorry, Grandma! I'll visit you on Thursdays and Saturdays. In disguise.

Nushif
May 28, 2011, 12:26 PM
Ja, Herr Kommisar, I have zis nagging fear about my neighbor... he has been acting strange, ja? Mowing his lawn late at night und wearing non-brown clothing. Ja? You know how it starts ...

Call me biased, but being a German of the post-post war generation I find the concept of reporting "suspicious" behavior that is not inherently criminal very ... very distasteful. And the fact that it's encouraged even more so.

oldbear
May 28, 2011, 12:52 PM
Interesting, both the post and the flier. Most of one time or another may have matched at least one of the traits listed. If the Feds had suggested watching for a combination of the traits that may be a much better idea.

After UBL being capped I have a feeling that there is more to this than worrying about "straw buyers."

Have a great Memorial Day weekend all:D

Good&Fruity
May 28, 2011, 12:53 PM
Looks like more Big Brother attempts to get everyone to spy on each other. "Your papers please!" asks the Comcast tech who comes to troubleshoot your cable....

Double Naught Spy
May 28, 2011, 06:24 PM
I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?

Because there are already regulations in place whereby FFLs are not to release guns to people who appear to exhibit certain traits or behaviors...is my guess.

TexasRifleman
May 28, 2011, 07:45 PM
Because there are already regulations in place whereby FFLs are not to release guns to people who appear to exhibit certain traits or behaviors...is my guess.

Wanna cite those? The denial reasons are the ones listed on the 4473. If a person meets those requirements I've never seen anything in GCA that says a dealer may not go through with the transfer because the purchaser exhibits certain traits, behaviors, etc.

478.99 C. lists them, among other places.

Owen Sparks
May 28, 2011, 08:06 PM
If the patriot act is not ended it will be misused just like the commerce clause and greatly expanded to investigate all sorts of activities such as your "weapons hoarding" and your "home arsinal" under the name of domestic terrorism.

Shadow 7D
May 29, 2011, 01:57 AM
Here's something that could get me on the naughty list...
More damage could be done other ways to a large building than just shooting people on the ground floor-- or flying planes into them, FIRE is more dangerous, and the feds know it.

But they care about guns?

Ole Coot
May 29, 2011, 09:39 AM
I thought the government(undisputed leaders) had a decree: "Thou Shalt Not Profile!" Wonder if having hair and getting bald fast puts me on their "gotcha" list?

22-rimfire
May 29, 2011, 10:30 AM
I suspect most gun shops are already vigilant.

buck460XVR
May 29, 2011, 11:15 AM
I dunno, it all sounds pretty innocent to me. Reminds one of the days when there was new wanted posters put up in the post office every week. I'm sure there was lots of folk that swore "that picture looks just like me!".:what:

In both versions there are statements to the fact that the FBI is not trying to impede sales to law abiding citizens or to deny anyone their constitutional rights. There are also statements to the fact that any of these actions listed may be exhibited by completely innocent folks. There is also a statement in both versions that says.....
It is important to remember that just because someone's speech, actions, beliefs, appearance, or way of life is different; it does not mean he or she is suspicious.

....it just asks that gun shop owners and the whole community itself be on the lookout for suspicious activity. Living in a small town all my life, this just comes natural. I see someone strange checkin' out my neighbors house, I keep an eye on them and I call it in if their actions support my suspicions. It's called awareness and community support. It's called not stickin' your head in the sand. If the FBI is targeting gun shops, maybe they have a legitimate reason. They have foiled other terrorist plots thru investigation, maybe there is some rhyme to their reason. IMHO, I believe it is intended as a legitimate defense mechanism to prevent terrorism and not an attempt by Obama to divide and conquer our Democracy and instill his Totalitarian regime on us........



Turning citizens against each other is an old trick of the politicians who would rule you. Don't fall for it.

jfrey
May 29, 2011, 11:46 AM
I never get the part about interest in ammo that will penetrate body armour. Most any hunting rifle round will do it easily. So will a big knife, but they don't tell you that. Stuff like this is just designed to stir people up and get old ladies looking at everyone in their neighborhood.

ErikO
May 29, 2011, 08:06 PM
Crap! I pay in cash! I must be a terrorist! lol

Apocalypse-Now
May 29, 2011, 09:04 PM
the FBI is part of the dept of homeland security, guys. they're looking for terrorists to keep america safe, not infringing your 2nd amen rights. :rolleyes:

terrorists obviously buy guns, rather smart move by the FBI to circulate flyers in gunshops.

if you're there to buy a gun, and aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. the NRA thinks everything that the government does is an "assault on the 2nd amen".

Walkalong
May 29, 2011, 10:17 PM
Pay no attention the the man behind the curtain. :)

They don't buy them in gun shops. ;)

Apocalypse-Now
May 29, 2011, 10:27 PM
They don't buy them in gun shops.



how do you know? ;)

Owen Sparks
May 29, 2011, 10:29 PM
[quote]if you're there to buy a gun, and aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about.[/qoute]

I am not a gangster either but if I get caught with a "Gangster Weapon" as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934 I will be hauled off to prison as if I were John Dillinger.
The term "domestic terrorism" is the tip of a very dangerous wedge as it will be used as an excuse to trample all sorts of liberties in the name of safety.

armoredman
May 29, 2011, 10:51 PM
So, what does the FBI flyer in the flight schools look like?

CZguy
May 29, 2011, 11:26 PM
Response was posted by Apocalypse-Now

Quote:
They don't buy them in gun shops.



how do you know?


Reference terrorist handbook page 57, paragraph 3, and I quote "Guns should be purchased locally in order to avoid detection by American law enforcement."

Posted by armoredman

So, what does the FBI flyer in the flight schools look like?

Actually homeland security is still working on getting those out, with a anticipated distribution date of 26 Dec. 2012.

Apocalypse-Now
May 29, 2011, 11:45 PM
The term "domestic terrorism" is the tip of a very dangerous wedge as it will be used as an excuse to trample all sorts of liberties in the name of safety.

i agree to a point.

certain sacrifices have to be made to avoid attack.

many didn't like the homeland security act that the W. spearheaded, but i haven't noticed any of my rights stripped from me as a result.

i'd rather have that act renewed, rather than Obozo enact his own ignorant version of homeland security, which would probably make terrorists american citizens, registered democrats, and given a lawyer on the taxpayers dime....

Owen Sparks
May 30, 2011, 12:51 AM
Do you know how the government dealt with a hand full of prohibition era gangsters who misused Thompson guns and short barreled shotguns? They passed a law making “gangster weapons” illegal for millions of law abiding American citizens never robbed a bank or shot anyone.

The threat of domestic terrorism will result in restrictive measures that will be applied just as collectively as the NFA was. Anytime you are considered part of a group, (the general public in this case) you are seen as no better than the least member of that group or the weakest link in the chain, and if “domestic terrorists” can’t be trusted with modern high capacity firearms then NOBODY should have them because of what they might do (except the government of course).

We have been down this road before. This time will be no different. Keep sacrificing little bits of your liberty in exchange for safety and soon you will have neither.

Nushif
May 30, 2011, 12:58 AM
certain sacrifices have to be made to avoid attack.

That's where I disagree. If we stop what we're doing because of stuff that *might* happen ... well. no good.

Apocalypse-Now
May 30, 2011, 01:13 AM
Do you know how the government dealt with a hand full of prohibition era gangsters who misused Thompson guns and short barreled shotguns? They passed a law making “gangster weapons” illegal for millions of law abiding American citizens never robbed a bank or shot anyone.

i haven't been affected by this. honestly never heard of it lol :)

That's where I disagree. If we stop what we're doing because of stuff that *might* happen ... well. no good.

what have you had to stop doing? the W.'s homeland security act hasn't affected me, or anyone i know. (other than having to take my shoes off at the airport lol) has it affected you? if it has, how so?


this is why i mentioned that Obozo should renew W.'s homeland security act, rather than make a new one. democrats, of course, love to strip rights away to please the lesser few.....

daorhgih
May 30, 2011, 02:02 AM
Apocalypse-soon. Starting with an all-out blast at Bubba-types, and those "identified" as suspicious. You know - folks like us who are dangerously infected with gun-itis.
quote:The FBI is part of the dept. of homeland security, guys. they're looking for terrorists to keep america safe, not infringing your 2nd amen rights. (( Do you mean those nasty evil ex-soldiers who come home, still "killers". Or those other terrorists who don't shave or get hair-cuts or have Gadsden Flags on their trunks?))

terrorists obviously buy guns, rather smart move by the FBI to circulate flyers in gunshops.

if you're there to buy a gun, and aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. the NRA thinks everything that the government does is an "assault on the 2nd amen".end quote. I really believe that we are being set-up for gun confiscation, after an attempt is made, on high-ranking elected persons and family, using Bubba-types, and definitely guns, and then a swoop against all gun owners. I hope I'm wrong. I've only buried 3.

Apocalypse-Now
May 30, 2011, 02:06 AM
ok, lol what do you guys suggest the government do to keep us safe from terrorist attacks? HmmMMM? :)

you guys seem to take issue with any measures they take whatsoever....and any action they are taking will eventually lead to "gun grabbing".

i think you guys are just being paranoid lol :)

buck460XVR
May 30, 2011, 12:36 PM
I am not a gangster either but if I get caught with a "Gangster Weapon" as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934 I will be hauled off to prison as if I were John Dillinger.
The term "domestic terrorism" is the tip of a very dangerous wedge as it will be used as an excuse to trample all sorts of liberties in the name of safety.

There is a legal way own "gangster" type weapons and yes if you break the law, you are a criminal and should be treated as such. Just because you disagree with a law, doesn't give you protection from prosecution if you break it.....unlike the thought process of the criminal mind.

Stuff like this is just designed to stir people up and get old ladies looking at everyone in their neighborhood.


i think you guys are just being paranoid lol :)


Ya think? It seems it's not just the little old ladies wearin' the Tin-Foil hats.


I never get the part about interest in ammo that will penetrate body armour. Most any hunting rifle round will do it easily. So will a big knife, but they don't tell you that.


Somebody comes into a gun store, wants to buy 20 XD-M .40 cals with extra Hi-Cap mags and then asks to purchase 5000 rounds of ammo designed for penetrating modern body armor, whadda you think he's huntin'? You don't think someone in LE should be called and the sale should be made? You think that by a gun store owner doing this it is a infringement of your rights? What if those 20 guns ended up @ your kid's school or your wife's place of work? How jeopardized are your rights then?

Yes, there is a legitimate reason for fear, but it is not from within.

Gun Geezer
May 30, 2011, 12:43 PM
Well, according to the FBI, I am a terrorist. And all this time I thought I was just a normal guy that enjoyed the shooting sports and wanted to be able to protect myself.

I'll go cling to my Bible for a while.

jerkface11
May 30, 2011, 12:48 PM
Big brothers budget isn't good enough so they need us to do the dirty work for them now?

DWFan
May 30, 2011, 01:17 PM
Maybe the FBI is trying to determine if the BATFE is still routing weapons to the Mexican drug cartels? Seriously, notifying the BATFE of suspicious activity is calling the fox to guard the chicken coop. They've only admitted to 1350 weapons being allowed to go south of the border and into criminal hands; some of the agents involved are reporting the numbers could be up to five times higher.

Heretic
May 30, 2011, 04:58 PM
I'd like to comment, but I can't seem to get the pdf to open.
Oh, there we go.......OMG thats me!

No seriously, none of that stuff would get the attention of any gun dealer I know( well, that credit card thing). If your customer tries to buy a gun while screaming" ALLAH ACKBAR " then you should probably call somebody, but jeesh.

Apocalypse-Now
May 30, 2011, 07:29 PM
Well, according to the FBI, I am a terrorist. And all this time I thought I was just a normal guy that enjoyed the shooting sports and wanted to be able to protect myself.

when did the FBI tell you that you're a terrorist? LOL


obviously i'm not a fan of the feds restricting gun rights, but at the same time, i don't freak out over anything they do that concerns guns. like i said before, not everything they do is "an assault on your god given rights". chillax people lol



this is why i never bought an NRA membership. if a federal employee rips a fart near a gunshop, the NRA shoots out emails to all it's members claiming uncle sam is "at it again" LMAO they need to focus their resources on curbing valid anti-gun legislation.

Walkalong
May 30, 2011, 08:28 PM
many didn't like the homeland security act that the W. spearheaded, but i haven't noticed any of my rights stripped from me as a result. Not yet, but the groundwork is there to use.
Somebody comes into a gun store, wants to buy 20 XD-M .40 cals with extra Hi-Cap mags and then asks to purchase 5000 rounds of ammo designed for penetrating modern body armor, whadda you think he's huntin'?They are not idiots. That would bring unwanted attention. They buy guns, ammo, etc on the black market, where they buy most things. They are criminals, remember?
when did the FBI tell you that you're a terrorist? LOL
You are right about that one, it wasn't the FBI, it was the pres and his czars who have tired to paint folks like us as "terrorists" so that down thee road it would not seem to strange to the gun ignorant John Q Public if the FBI took us in, or out, accompanied with the appropriate press from sympathetic media.

There are many little side items in the anti's war on guns and freedom that are not blatantly anti gun, just a little more kindling on the fire.

i think you guys are just being paranoidThe anti gun/freedom movement is real, never forget that.

MrsSmith
May 31, 2011, 08:57 AM
Hate to say this guys, but I really don't think this is about the government trying to get gun store owners to out their regular customers. This is very similar to efforts being made across the board to get regular civilians to be more observant of potential terrorist activity. I've seen it even in the recreational boating industry, asking civilian boaters to report any unusual activity (such as people photographing the undersides of bridges, entrances to our ports, oil storage facilities near the ports, or small vessels shadowing oil tankers or container ships - which are potential terrorist weapons). I also don't think this is a case of them trying to get us to do their jobs - don't we ALL have a responsiblity to protect not just ourselves and our families but our communities and (in the big picture) our nation? The people most likely to actually see potential terrorist activity are NOT the people with badges. Terrorists worry about LEOs, they don't worry about ordinary citizens because they assume that most people are sheep.

As to the gun store owners. They're likely in the business because (just like the rest of us) they like guns, believe in self defense, and believe in 2A. We need to give them some credit. I doubt seriously if the majority of them are going to report me to the FBI if I were to decide next week that I want to be a blonde or a redhead.
I also suspect that the majority of them have enough gumption to refuse a sale that made the hair on the backs of their necks stand up. But criminals and "enemies foreign or domestic" don't typically stop into the local gun store and buy weapons legally. The government knows this, they're just covering their bases. How can they ask private flying schools, recreational boaters, trucking companies, etc. to keep an eye out and not ask people who sell weapons? How do you think the libs would respond to that?

If I were a gun store owner and got that flyer, I'd have gone straight to my computer and created a similar flyer instructing the local FBI office how it should be conducting business, printed it out and sent both flyers to them. But that's just me. Sometimes its best to just not take things quite so seriously.
This was a poorly reproduced flyer that has no more power than a piece of paper you might print it on. Even if it were handed to you in person by an FBI agent, it's still just words on a piece of paper. If we want to get upset about something, let's get upset about words floating through congress that DO have the power to hurt us by taking away our rights - and do something about it.

benEzra
May 31, 2011, 06:30 PM
Some of the suggestions of things to watch for make a lot of sense, but I could see a few of them leading to false positives. For example...

I occasionally pay for purchases with cash.

I occasionally buy ammunition or shoot at ranges "illogical distances" from home, out of convenience.

Anyone who is interested in being competent at HD, or who shoots IDPA/USPSA, or who studies combatives, could be accused of practicing "offensive moves in a confined space."

Anyone with a carry license is probably pretty darn interested in "learning the use of hidden weapons."

I've never practiced or trained in group tactics, but I'll bet a lot of carbine classes include them.

I've certainly made bulk purchases of "weatherproofed ammunition" and "high-capacity magazines" over the years, like many/most people on this board.

I'm not saying any of the above are likely, but having encountered one "sportsman" at a gun store just a few weeks ago who was practically spitting with rage over those of us who like AR's (and ascribing rather evil motives to those of us who own them), I could see someone like that reporting me as a "terrorist" for some of the above. And if not me, certainly someone like me who had a more "foreign" sounding name, a more "foreign" looking face, or who practiced a different religion than I do.

certain sacrifices have to be made to avoid attack.
Those sacrifices do not include the civil liberties that largely define us as Americans, in my opinion. People died to give us the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and to protect them over the last two centuries, so I don't want those rights thrown out the window in order to protect me from a statistically unlikely bogeyman.

Al Qaeda could never destroy this country even if they crashed a plane a week, but overzealous politicians and authority figures throwing our civil liberties out the window can. Terrorism isn't an existential threat to the United States, but trashing the Constitution in the name of safety destroys everything we are and everything we stand for.

many didn't like the homeland security act that the W. spearheaded, but i haven't noticed any of my rights stripped from me as a result.
Your 4th Amendment rights have largely been stripped from you, just as mine have from me. And if you find yourself accused of certain crimes, you certainly have far less legal protections under the 5th than you used to.

And the ink was barely dry on the Patriot Act before those new powers started being applied to mundane criminal offenses. That sort of mission creep is inevitable.

i'd rather have that act renewed, rather than [Obama] enact his own ignorant version of homeland security, which would probably make terrorists american citizens, registered democrats, and given a lawyer on the taxpayers dime....
The more authoritarian-leaning Democrats support the Patriot Act just as much as some Republicans do, since that act is basically a rehash of Clinton's executive-power wishlist from the 1990's and in some cases goes even further than what Clinton ever dreamed of. If you think Schumer, Feinstein, and the rest of the DLC/Third Way movement want more due process for the accused, rather than less, I think you are mistaken.

Regarding the 2ndA, the previous administration also wanted to summarily revoke the right to own a gun from anyone placed on the terrorism watchlists for any reason. The DLC and the media are still pushing that one.

FWIW, I saw a quote recently that I really liked, and I'm going to repeat here. It's from a work of pop fiction, but it so tragically describes our era:

We are a nation accustomed to being afraid....People crave fear. Fear justifies everything. Fear makes it okay to have surrendered freedom after freedom, until our every move is tracked and recorded in a dozen databases the average man will never have access to. Fear creates, defines, and shapes our world, and without it, most of us would have no idea what to do with ourselves.

Our ancestors dreamed of a world without boundaries, while we dream new boundaries to put around our homes, our children, and ourselves. We limit our potential day after day in the name of a safety that we refuse to ever achieve. We took a world that was huge with possibility, and we made it as small as we could.

---Mira Grant, The Feed (2010)

Fn-P9
June 9, 2011, 07:53 AM
I think Ben Ezra just about hit it on the button. This is all just a small piece of the puzzle to shape what we think about ourselves and others. Jesse Ventura said something along the lines of "Ill face the danger, leave my freedoms alone". I would accually like to know the personality of the person who wrote the fliers.

I am sure that these are designed as some generic thing that one could replace guns with just about anything. Someone said boats and taking pictures. They now run ads with the slogan "see it, say it" meaning to report activity. They always show some "menacing" guy in a black hat taking pictures of city hall. Like someone with learned helplessness we have a learned fear. Society anyways.....

Apocalypse-Now
June 9, 2011, 05:09 PM
i'll ask again: can someone here point out a single instance where their rights or freedoms have been violated or taken away by the homeland security act enacted by the W.?

is there a gun you wanted to purchase, that now you cannot? :eek:

so you have to take your shoes off at the airport, big deal! lol


folks will either complain about being attacked, or the efforts to thwart those attacks. you can't please everyone.



Reference terrorist handbook

seriously? you believe terrorists run around all day with a rule book in their satchel? :eek:

TexasRifleman
June 9, 2011, 07:01 PM
seriously? you believe terrorists run around all day with a rule book in their satchel?

Might want to do some research, that's exactly what he's talking about. Part of what kicked all this up was some information in AQ training manuals that were "obtained" over the years.

Yeager
June 9, 2011, 07:13 PM
obviously i'm not a fan of the feds restricting gun rights, but at the same time, i don't freak out over anything they do that concerns guns. like i said before, not everything they do is "an assault on your god given rights". chillax people lol

I'm sorry, but you just lost every shred of credibility you had by using that phrase.

Now pick up that can citizen.

Freedom lost, all in the name of fighting "terrisim".

How long will it be before you're a "terrist" because you own an AR-15?

Apocalypse-Now
June 9, 2011, 08:39 PM
Might want to do some research, that's exactly what he's talking about. Part of what kicked all this up was some information in AQ training manuals that were "obtained" over the years.

yes, i am aware of the manual. however, i certainly don't believe that terrorists adhere to a rulebook for everything they do, especially now that they know it's all over the internet. that just wouldn't make any sense.


I'm sorry, but you just lost every shred of credibility you had by using that phrase.

chillax, B :D



Freedom lost, all in the name of fighting "terrisim".

How long will it be before you're a "terrist" because you own an AR-15?

please share with us what freedoms you have lost in the name of fighting terrorism.



i'm obvious not a fan of government policies intervening in my business, i'm a gun owner. however, i also realize certain reasonable measure must be taken to avoid further attacks. i haven't lost a single freedom, or had any rights violations from W's homeland security policy--and no one on this forum has listed any either.

basicblur
June 9, 2011, 08:55 PM
How long will it be before you're a "terrist" because you own an AR-15?
Well I'm not worried at all...'specially after seeing my favorite $14.95 Casio watch (of which I have bought many) splashed across TV the other day!

Seems if you prefer Casio watches, you're probably already on somebody's terrorist list! :banghead:

And all these years I thought I preferred 'em because I was a pragmatist, they were inexpensive, and keep good time.

Who knew I was really a terrorist... :scrutiny:

MisterMike
June 10, 2011, 12:47 AM
I have to agree that the level of paranoia being exhibited by some here is a bit over the top. Think back a few years to the days in late 2001, when the FBI and folks who operated flight schools were roundly criticized for failing to pick up on the early signals of the 9/11 plot.

This is nothing more than asking gun shop owners to report suspicious behavior. If you think Joe the Gunshop Owner is going to rat out a guy buying to support his gun habit...or that the FBI has the time or interest to chase down legitimate purchasers...you're letting your imagination get the best of you. Lest you are not aware, the FBI constantly cultivates relationships with people in a variety of industries to tip them off to potential criminal behavior.

To be alarmed over this happening in the area of firearms sales is pure, unadulterated paranoia. There are plenty of things happening in government about which we should be concerned. This isn't one of them.

Apocalypse-Now
June 10, 2011, 12:48 AM
^^finally, a level headed post.

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