I was at a gun show the other year...


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Kerf
May 28, 2011, 05:31 AM
and this person had a whole table of hand made revolvers, supposedly made by an in-law, over a lifetime. They were all low pressure rounds, .22s, 38s, 32s, etc. They were so unique, I bought one. A lot of file marks and hand tooling and parts that looked like they didn't belong together. I wouldn't pull the trigger on one, but I have to give the guy credit for the dedication and stick-to-itiveness that was exhibited on that table. Truly, one of a kind!

I hope it doesn't come to this, but has anyone even considered such a project?

Kerf

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moonpie
May 28, 2011, 11:32 AM
paladin press has some good books on the subject. surfing homemade/homebuilt/DIY turned up several sites with interesting designs, some of the better ones were from Britain where they "hoped it wouldn't come to this". as for the legal reference go to atf.gov you can download their entire book for free

JellyJar
May 28, 2011, 06:47 PM
Pictures please....

GLOOB
May 28, 2011, 08:39 PM
I think it would be easier making a fully auto machine gun than a revolver.

bcp280z
May 28, 2011, 10:38 PM
Do you need to pay a tax every time you make a homemade gun? or do you need some sorta liscense, sounds like another fun, expensive hobby.

^agree, pics plz

kozak6
May 28, 2011, 10:40 PM
A revolver is a bad choice for a home build. There's too many parts and they all need extremely careful fitting.

For a summer project, I've thinking about maybe trying some lost foam zinc casting to build a single shot pistol intended to fire a bb or airgun pellet with a shotgun primer.

I think it would be easier making a fully auto machine gun than a revolver.
It depends on what you have in mind. An open bolt subgun like a Sten? Definitely.

EDIT:
Do you need to pay a tax every time you make a homemade gun? or do you need some sorta liscense, sounds like another fun, expensive hobby.

It's complicated.

Federally, it's not too bad. Simply explained, if it's something you could normally buy (not NFA, complying with 922r, etc), and as long as the point isn't to make money buy selling it, you could build and own it without paying a tax or getting a license.

On the state/local level is where the real problem is.

HGUNHNTR
May 29, 2011, 03:41 PM
^ I wasn't aware that there was any problem on a state or local level. You can build any firearm that you could normally purchase in the stae/ municipality in which you live.

MarkDozier
May 30, 2011, 06:00 AM
as long as you complie with local reg u can build your own guns, up to five at a time. however you what to build number 6 you have to destroy one of the first 5.
no s/n is required, but it is a good ideal.

moonpie
May 30, 2011, 06:42 AM
as long as you complie with local reg u can build your own guns, up to five at a time. however you what to build number 6 you have to destroy one of the first 5.
no s/n is required, but it is a good ideal.
i cant find it in my reference but that's per year isn't it?

Heretic
May 30, 2011, 10:28 AM
You can build one per year. It has to be a legal gun. If it's a rifle or a pistol, it has to have a rifled barrel. I have a friend who bends and hardens his own frame flats to build AK's. It's illegal to sell or give them away. I don't know if there is a limit on how many, but one per year, rifle pistol or shotgun.

del4
May 30, 2011, 10:49 AM
I would love to see some pictures of some homemade guns!

Heretic
May 30, 2011, 01:44 PM
A matchlock made by a friend. Working on pics of his AKs

il_10
May 31, 2011, 02:44 AM
Dozier and Heretic, Please cite actual law of some sort if you're going to make those sorts of claims. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've been through a ton of legal forums, hobbyist gunsmith forums, and machinist-gun-making forums and I've never come across anything that sounds anything like what you're claiming, nor can I find any reference to such a law in the GCA, NFA, or anywhere else in the code on the ATF site.

Heretic
May 31, 2011, 10:39 AM
I'm a decades long fan of "The Shotgun News", they have an uncountable no. of homemade gun projects. I will begin the search for the "legals", but it may take some time to go through the stack.

moonpie
May 31, 2011, 10:44 AM
A matchlock made by a friend. Working on pics of his AKs
never thought of using a cannon barrel but i'll steal any idea that works

Sam1911
May 31, 2011, 10:47 AM
as long as you complie with local reg u can build your own guns, up to five at a time. however you what to build number 6 you have to destroy one of the first 5.
no s/n is required, but it is a good ideal.


You can build one per year. It has to be a legal gun. If it's a rifle or a pistol, it has to have a rifled barrel. I have a friend who bends and hardens his own frame flats to build AK's. It's illegal to sell or give them away. I don't know if there is a limit on how many, but one per year, rifle pistol or shotgun.


These statements are not factual on a federal level at all, and I've not heard of any state where these requirements hold true, either.

You can build as many Title I guns (rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers) for your own use as you have time and materials to complete.

You MAY NOT build them to sell, however there is no law against giving or selling one (or all) if you decide to do so later. The ATF asks that you apply a serial number and maker's name & location when you sell one you built yourself (though there is some debate about whether the law actually requires it).

Please be careful offering legal advice without having some law to cite that supports your claim.

pockets
May 31, 2011, 10:52 AM
The matchlock mentioned would fall under the muzzle loading classification.
Unless your state prohibits it, you don't need anything to make all the muzzle loaders you like (You can sell 'em through the mail even). That's the fun of muzzle loaders....you can build/own/buy/sell all sorts of things that would be no-no's in 'cartridge gun' form.

A 'single shot pistol firing a pellet with a primer' could fall under the muzzle loading classification...see Dixie Gun Works' primer powered 'parlor pistols' for examples of such.

Any cartridge gun firing from an open bolt would be considered Class III, no?

.

Sam1911
May 31, 2011, 11:14 AM
Any cartridge gun firing from an open bolt would be considered Class III, no?
Pretty much, yes -- except that the correct term is a "Title II, NFA-regulated" firearm. (Class 03 is the type of special occupational tax that a Title II firearms dealer has to pay. There are Class 03 dealers, but no "Class III" firearms.)

The ATF has decreed that an open-bolt repeater is too readily convertible to full-auto.

When in doubt about a new design you've invented it is always a good idea to submit your design drawings to the ATF tech branch for a review to make sure you aren't building something that they feel falls into the Title II definitions.

kozak6
May 31, 2011, 11:18 AM
Generally speaking, open bolt is a no no. I seem to remember a ruling or a letter that a Sten without a magazine well was still naughty, although I don't have a link handy.

On another forum I frequent, it was thought that a single shot open bolt would be ok if it were exceptionally difficult to add a magazine to.

However, if that isn't the case, the penalties are horrifying. It would be best to run any design past the BATFE first.

Heretic
May 31, 2011, 11:33 AM
Should have qualified that with "I think".

quick internet search shows plenty of info out there. must be more popular than I thought. Matchlock barrels were cut from an old car axle. Dude has a variety of nice homemade cannons.post pics of those if anyone wants to see them.

P.S. He uses fireworks punks for the match.

Sam1911, I've read many of your posts and you always seem to know what you're talking about,but are you sure theres no quantity restrictions?I don't have info, but have seen the one a year thing several places.


Went searchin', but I'm having trouble with my computer, not sure how long I can stay running. Maybe someone can start a thread in "legal" on this subject, as I for one would like to know more.

moonpie
May 31, 2011, 05:56 PM
like i said earlier the atf allows free downloads of its regs. it just takes time to sift through it

Sam1911
May 31, 2011, 07:31 PM
are you sure theres no quantity restrictions?I don't have infoYes.

, but have seen the one a year thing several places.Oh, I know, but surely you've seen posted many times that you need a "Class III permit" to own a machine gun, that there is a "family exemption" to the GCA '68 laws on interstate transfers, and any amount of other silliness that isn't based on any real law anywhere. Take everything with a grain of salt. Always ask for a citation of the law. These days it just isn't hard to find that information and if someone can't back up the claim, that should tell you something.

like i said earlier the atf allows free downloads of its regs. it just takes time to sift through itThe problem is that you may sift a VERY long time before you prove to yourself that it isn't there. (The old dilemma of trying to prove a negative.)

Here's an expert from an recent PM exchange with another member on the question of building firearms at home:

Check this out: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


On page 177 of the PDF:

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (24), 26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 478.11 and 479.11]

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a nonsporting semi-automatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

Also this:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?
For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

It then goes on to cover that you can't make unregistered Title II weapons and can't violate 922(r) ... but we all knew that.

Basically the law is written to define what you can't do. That which is not prohibited is legal to do. Building Title I firearms that don't violate the provisions of the NFA or 922(r) is perfectly legal.

Have fun! :)

Now, you aren't going to find in those either where the ATF defines how many you can build -- or tells you explicitly that you can build as many as you want. They are inclined (and may be legally and/or administratively bound) to stick pretty closely to telling folks what is illegal, not enumerating all of the various actions that would be legal.

For example, there is no federal law telling you that you CAN build or use an ammunition feeding device holding 300 rds, but it is perfectly legal to do so, federally and in most states. Where there is no law against it, the issue is not mentioned. Occasionally such questions do make it into a FAQ list on the ATF web site, but that is far -- FAR -- from inclusive.

KodiakBeer
May 31, 2011, 07:51 PM
Well, there's this below. It's made out of brass and chambered in the venerable .32 something-or-other.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac164/kodiakbeer/BrassColt.jpg

19&41
May 31, 2011, 08:57 PM
About 28 years ago, I bought 5 revolvers from Sarco, that were apparently made by "artisans" in Mexico. They were in rough condition. I kept them for a while, then sold them for $50 each in a local gun "buyback" program. The 5 cost me $50. Thus ended my career as a seller of guns.

545days
June 1, 2011, 01:09 AM
Lots of home builds (from crude to stunning) can be found here: http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=SF;f=30

Click on the thread "Yooper Assault Rifle" for my favorite crude home-build of all time. Once you read that thread, you will realize that yes, you do have the skill to build a home made gun.

TexasRifleman
June 1, 2011, 09:24 AM
Sam1911, I've read many of your posts and you always seem to know what you're talking about,but are you sure theres no quantity restrictions?I don't have info, but have seen the one a year thing several places.

No, there is no quantity mentioned at all anywhere in the law. the one a year thing has been repeated so often people begin to believe it's Gospel.

What the law DOES say is that you cannot manufacture guns to be "in the business" and then the law proceeds to give a pretty detailed explanation of what that means.

Profit is not the only determining factor of whether one is "in the business" or not either.

Basically the law says that if you manufacture guns, with the intent to sell, and with the primary motivation of making a livelihood out of it, then you need a license.

Now on the more practical side, as Sam mentions, you may have to spend a lot of time and money on lawyers trying to prove it.

Specifically, the law says:

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objec- tive of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;

It also goes on to define "livelihood and profit":

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection:

So, clearly you could legally make guns and sell them as a hobby, as many a year as you wish. But, at some point the ATF is likely to demand that you prove you are not "engaged in the business" and if you can't prove it to their, or a juries, satisfaction things may not end well.

But, bottom line is that nowhere in any law is there anything about a minimum or maximum quantity of guns one can make and sell.

It's all in 921. Definitions

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Heretic
June 1, 2011, 12:42 PM
We sure have some well informed people here! This is going to make my friend very happy. Thanks for the info.

545days,went to that link. OMG!!!!! Love it!!! As long as we have people like this, our freedom is in safe hands.

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