[TonyB]

My father's looking for a 44spl. snubby for CCW....any opinions.....what's the new Charter2000 buldog like???How bout the Taurus's???:cool:

[Majic]

Tell him to take a look at a S&W M696 if he can. A few are starting to surface on the market again.

[Tamara]

Seen a couple of disturbing failures from new Charter 2000 guns, including a .357 that launched the barrel downrange leaving only the shank in the frame. Wonder what the recoil was like from a thousand+ grain projectile? My Charco Bulldog Pug shot itself loose in less than 400 rounds, as well as all the nickel flaking off the forcing cone, breechface, and underside of the topstrap. The original Charter Arms were swell guns for the money, but anything from their Charco or Charter 2000 successors is suspect in my book. :scrutiny:

The big-bore Taurus snubbies are nothing to fall in love with, but are eminently serviceable CCW pieces. I'd tote one.

[TonyB]

Thanks for the warning about Charter2000.......I think Taurus is the way to go.if he can't find a S+W.....thanks..:cool:

[Mike Irwin]

It's a bit on the big side, but S&W made, for Lew Horton, a run of 3" 24s and I believe 3" 624s back in the 1980s, based on the 24-3 frame (not pinned).

A friend of mine has one of the 3" guns, I have one of the S&W reintroductions in 6.5" with target sights.

They're N-frames, which are large, but my God are they fun to shoot.

[Elkslayer]

I have 2 Taurus 44 spl snubbies. Love'em both. They are around just keep doing a search on Gunbroker or GunsAmerica.

I have a 3" 5-shot I picked up from a pawnshop in GA. for $150. It had some minor rust and looked like it had slid down the street so I had it polished and re-blued looks great now.

The other is a highly polished stainless with a conceled hammer and a 2-inch bbl. Like I said both are quite servicesable for CCW and came in the configuration I was wanting.

[CZ 75 BD]

2 3/8" snubby, 5 shot 44spl. It's a handful. Great shooter. The "ribber" grip makes it easy to shoot, but harder to draw. It is my EDC. 19.5 oz empty. Studying wood grips or an alternate to the standard.
Overall, highly recommend for personal protection.

[Majic]

I also have a 3" M24. It is big time fun shooting, but is really in another league than the previously mentioned .44s.
N-frame, short barrel, and 6 shots of .44 specials. What's not to like about them? :cool:

[Deepdiver]

I've got a Rossi M720 5- shots of 44 spec. It is stainless, and has a 2-in barrel. It has been an accurate, reliable shooter for 10 years. I have heard or postings about issues with the Rossi's but I have been happy with mine. I think I gave about $250 for it in 1994.

[Airboss]

Here is what a Model 24-3 3" Looks like Fun to shoot and I carry one from time to time.This one is NIB and has never been shot.I have one just like it that I shoot and carry

[W Turner]

You may also want to look at Gunbroker, Gunsamerica or AuctionArms for one of the discontinued S&W 296's. They have an alloy frame, titanium cylinder, are hammerless, and weigh around 20oz. Price should be in the $350 neighborhood.


Bull

[LoneWulf]

Smith 696 or 296 are the best.

[Brigrat]

anybody have any info on terminal ballistics of the 44sp out of 2 in barrells? What rounds are good? What about as a backwoods gun, would 2in velocity be enough for 4 legged threats?

[Albert Shear]

24 3" is in my opinion the ultimate carry bigbore snubbie!
I carry Speer GoldDot 200gr in it.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pc492b8435395c1c42622953c797b8d58/f9f820b4.jpg

[Stainz]

I highly endorse the S&W 296 & 696 - I have had both for over a year. The 696 is hard to find, larger, and weighs 35 oz - a bit big for CCW. The 296 weighs in at ~ 21 oz loaded with CCI Blazers 200gr GDjHP's - it's only diet here (~1,200 thus far). It is nearly the same size as the 696 (2.5" vs 3" barrel), but the enclosed hammer and fixed sights make it a better CCW. That bullet, Speer #4427, is designed to open by 800fps - they chrono ~805fps from my 296 (~840 fps from the 696). Better grips - like the rounded backstrap enclosing Uncle Mike's combats that came on my new 10 and 696 - are needed. The 296 MSRP was ~$790, it is listed in CDNN's latest sale flyer new at less than half of that ($340 + $10 S/H + your FFL) - quite a bargain. Remember - the 296 is limited to clad only 200gr or smaller ammo in .44 Special cases.

The 696 has the benefit of using any ammo - even in the .44 Russian cases. Mine loves 240gr LRNFP's over various amounts of TiteGroup or W231. I wouldn't consider it a step up in woods-protection from the Blazer-equipped 296. If you want that step up, look for a 629 Mountain Gun. My 629MG sees mainly .44 Special & Russian loads - with some down-sized Magnums. It has a six-shot capacity and the .44 Magnum capability - great for the woods. It will probably be easier to find, too. It is a 4" - but weighs in at ~5oz more than the 696.

Stainz

[Tamara]

Forgot about the Smith 296! (Of course, it's so light that it's easy to forget about :D ) It may be one of the few guns ever discontinued for ugliness, but it's an awful handy way to tote five rounds of .44 Special. CDNN has them right now for a fraction of their original cost.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=343095

There's also its 3"-barrelled cousin, the 396 Mountain Lite.

A lot of folks are extolling the virtues of the 3" N-frame. Carrying one of these things requires a little more dedication than the K/L-sized guns we started the thread talking about, but with the right grips and holster, it can be done.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=137380

[Gewehr98]

I haven't been able to faze mine at all, with loads ranging from 180 to 240 grains.

http://mauser98.com/696altamontleft1.jpg

[Richard]

TonyB, I have a little experience with snubnosed 44 Specials and I will offer the following. The lightweight versions are unpleasant to shoot during range sessions, this would include the S&W M296 and Charter Arms Bulldog. The 3" 24-3 is a jewel to shoot and it along with a Taurus make great house guns but in my opinion are too heavy for carry. My opine on the lightweight 44s is shared by another poster, Lou Alessi, and Terry Murbach. The two pictures are my M296 with Farrar grips and my Taurus M441. Regards, Richard :D
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/p46dd17c76cc7e2274e5affcdaad7b0bd/fa2d2c43.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid89/p9ec21134b51a3f02cb3cc6f88485aef0/fa88ce67.jpg

[rikman]

I have to agree....I have a 24-3 and it is a jewel to shoot!

To those of you who carry this great snubbie ...what kind of holster do yo use?

take care,
Rick

[BluesBear]

Galco Silhouette.

Thumb break and it carries the gun with the cylinder up high.

[Majic]

I use a Don Hume Double Nine for my 3" M24. It's a pancake style with thumb break.

http://www.donhume.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DH&Product_Code=H721&Category_Code=CH

He also offers it without the break.

http://www.donhume.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DH&Product_Code=H721+O.T.&Category_Code=CH

[deleteall]

PMI, I thought the .44 special didn't have the greatest performance, why a .44 special over a .357 magnum, etc?

[Majic]

why a .44 special over a .357 magnum,
.429" hole vs .357" hole ;)

[Pappy John]

.....and let's not forget....

200-250 gr vs. 125-158 gr ;)

[The Mighty Beagle]

Hmmm .... the .44 Spec. also has about 150 to 200 foot/pounds LESS energy thant the .357, according to my Sierra manual. Worse yet, some of the .44 spec. snubby velocities I've seen in gun reviews are so low (around 700 fps or less) as to yield foot/pounds in the 200's. That's .38 spec. territory, not too impressive.

A 9mm carries about 360 f/p's, and no one is going around saying it's a dragon slayer. I think 40 S&W and 357 mag., which seem to be the best manstoppers out there, yield from around 450 - 600 f/p/e.

Not saying there's anything wrong the .44 spec. choice, but having recently decided NOT to go that route, I thought I would share my thinking on it. IMHO, picking a .44 Spec. over a .357 is like re-inventing the wheel in a bigger, heavier, less-effective package. Big bore is great, but if hamstrung by too low a velocity, it looses its punch. I decided that you needed something more like a .41 magnum to get markedly better results than a .357 would give. There is a reason why .44 spec. isn't more popular.

In my experience, the muzzle flip and noise are every bit as bad as a .357 snubby. But to me, all short-barrelled guns are too loud.

[BluesBear]

Controlability, less recoil.

Less muzzle flash.

Less muzzle blast.

.44 Special will do everything a .45acp can and more.

200gr Gold Dot vs 125gr Gold Dot

[Majic]

Velocity is not necessarily needed in the .44sp as it has decidedly more bullet mass than the .357mag. The bullet weight provides the momentum needed to penetrate.
Smaller bores need velocity, larger bores rely on the momentum of their larger mass to compensate. The same reason the 9mm runs at 1100 fps and faster while the .45acp runs at 800 fps.

[Poohgyrr]

I'd prefer a used Smith if possible, but have heard more good than bad about Taurus for a few years now. A 3" Smith, either the 5 shot L frame 696, or the 6 shot N frame 24/624 would work for me. A Sparks VM-2, and a good belt, makes even a 4" N frame pretty comfortable. The middle of page two has a link to one of these setups:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26955&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

[Dave T]

Beagle,

Most of the respected experts in the field of terminal ballistics agree that energy/foot pounds are not a good indicator of a given cartridge/loads stopping capability. Momentum comes closer to being an indicator but that too leaves a lot to be explained. This is a very complex question to which there are few widely agreed upon answers.

[VictorLouis]

It's not uncontrollable with the Blazers that Stainz(and I) like, but I won't kid you that they don't smack the palm a bit.;) However, in this gun, they printed around 9" to the left for me at the 25yd. line.:( So, I tried the Federal lead HPs(yes, I KNOW), and some SilverTip. They both are only about 4"-5" left and much easier in recoil. The STs were dead-on in elevation, and the LHPs shot low, so I went with the STs.

What a sweet package.:cool:

[Richard]

VictorLouis, I figured if I waited around long enough someone would call me a recoil weinie but I feel being the company of Lou Alessi and Terry Murbach makes it well worth while :D Regards, Richard :D

[The Mighty Beagle]

Thanks Dave, but to be honest with you, I find many experts to be blow-hards with completely unproveable theories that cannot predict real life. In the end, they always seem to be selling something, don't they? It would be different if there were not such tremendous disagreement about stopping power, but there is and frankly I tend not not to believe any of them all that wholeheartedly. I have however seen how a few calibers have performed on game, and that's more valuable to me personally. Others may disagree, which is fine, but others won't be defending my home if ever need be, so I'll go with my experience.

To some of the other posters ....

First, I don't think I'd compare a .45 auto to a .44 special out of a snubby ... there's what, up to 150 fps difference between a 5" .45 and a 2 or 3 inch .44? Have you chrono'd your .44 spec. lately? I've heard of a lot of idealistic thinking regarding the published velocities.

Second, I have seen lots of people hunt deer with a .357, but I never seem to see them do it with .44 spec. Most want more power than either, say a .44 Magnum - why? FOOT POUNDS OF ENERGY makes a difference in killing things. I just don't see anybody moving up from .357 to a .44 spec. Some go to .45 Colt, but then they hot-load it, so that's moot. You could say it has to do with range, but many animals are taken at very short ranges here due to the hills so I don't think that's a big factor around here.

Furthermore, I have seen some truly pathetic performance from .45 Colt / .45 ACP, which worked to wound but not kill in those instances. OTH, I've seen the .357 literally knock down dead a couple deer as if they'd been struck by lightning, contrary to what people on Internet forums report (many of whom have never shot a deer).

Again, it's just my limited experience with guns, but more velocity and foot pounds tend to be a good thing when trying to kill something, even if you have to go to a little smaller bore. I have no argument with anyone here, because it's my experience that people in general believe what they want to believe and it's not my job in life to change others.

This is simply how things have worked for me.


Cheers,

TMB

[SMLE]

I just took the required class for the NM CCW, and my instructor has a S&W 696 3" like the one Gewehr98 posted. I am intrigued by it and am going to try to get a few rounds through it this Saturday when we shoot the qualification course. I doubt I'd buy one, but I would like to see what it'll do.

A local shop had one of the Lew Horton 624s just recently. If anyone is trying to find one, I'll be happy to see if it is still there and put you in contact with the owner.

[VictorLouis]

The lightweight versions are unpleasant to shoot during range sessions, this would include the S&W M296.... someone would call me a recoil weinie...
Well, I won't call you a weinie.;) However, I don't find it unpleasant to shoot. I don't know that I'd want to go through more than a box of the Blazers, but the SilverTips and Federal would be all-day comfortable.:cool: It looks to me as though your Farrar grips cover the backstrap on the gun? In which case, that little extra cushion would make it a pussycat for me.:D

[Dave T]

... they always seem to be selling something, don't they?

No, the people I was referring to are not trying to sell anything. They are Doctors of Medicine and scientests.

You seem to have all the answers already so I won't bother you with my lowly opinions.

[seeker_two]

Second, I have seen lots of people hunt deer with a .357, but I never seem to see them do it with .44 spec.

I have. And, if you check out some of the info on the Sixgunner site, (http://www.sixgunner.com) you'll see it too.

A 200gr. bullet at 900-1000fps is well below .44MAG levels & does a heck of a job on game at pistol distances...:cool:

[The Mighty Beagle]

Um, please re-read my post.

I said I didn't see folks using .44 Special on deer around here, you know, the real world. I'm betting if you stop and think about it, you don't know that many people who do it either.

What people do on Sixgunner.com is oftentimes aberrant. They shoot a lot of things I wouldn't shoot, such as 500's and 475's and 454 Casulls ... does that mean we should all do that, or that it's necessary or ideal or something?

[BluesBear]

Dang, I always thought I was living in the real world.
Apparently I have been mistaken all of these years.

I knew I should have made a left turn at Albuquerque. ;)

[The Mighty Beagle]

Dave T,

I meant no disrespect to you, I'm just not swallowing the appeal to authority you presented. In my experience, even doctors and scientists can have an agenda. Ever heard of the supposed 'greenhouse effect' that's so hotly debated amongst scientists? It does not mean that I know more than them, it just means that I may be more interested in the truth than some of them.

You know Dave, insulting me is kind of juvenile, and makes you look foolish. If you're going to post responses to people, you can't get all unhinged when they don't automatically fall in line with your unsolicited advice.

I just don't feel that you have the right to discount my life experiences, Dave. Perhaps your experiences differ, in which case you can go your way and I'll happily go mine, but I'm not letting you insult me.

You owe me an apology, sir.

[Stainz]

I'll still take my .44 Specials for PD around the home - and for a CCW, recalling that the .357 Magnum was developed to shoot through car doors at fleeing felons. Of course, should a BG hide inside my fridge or clothes dryer, I guess I'll have a problem... Well, probably not... there is something growing in that fridge that would require an EPA 'Super Funds' grant to clean up... and that dryer is generally full.

As to the use of the .44 Special as a hunting round... a better suited, actually designed as a hunting round, version became available many years ago - the .44 Magnum. Sure, the .44 Russian and Specials took game - even the .45 S&W, Colts, and .44-40 were used - even on bison. Are they popular today? Nope... folks at the range bring everything from .243 to .458 Lott chambered long guns to 'sight-in' for white-tail season. The prevalent round is 7mm Magnum - way overkill for a deer (I have much more appreciation for those with .30-30's - highly sufficient for this terrain and prey.). Most come back several times during the 'season' - generally after missing their prey - marksmanship/familiarity being the suspected culprit. Therein lies the problem - and the answer.

Whatever you choose, shoot it often. Develop some skills. Now, another question. Should you ever have to discharge your firearm in your home, are you prepared for the possible results? Snubbies - especially ported ones - can disorient you when discharged in the dark due to the muzzle flash. Supersonic rounds, whether .357 Magnum or 9mm (The el-cheapo 115gr Blazers chrono-ed 1170fps from my CZ-75!), will cause at a minimum, temporary partial deafness when discharged in a small room. The loud 'boom' of a big-bore subsonic round would be less problematic. Misses can go through wallboard & siding - and enter a neighbor's home with disastrous results with those high speed rounds; less so with the big and slower ones. I'll stay with those 'big & slow' rounds - my .44 Special revolvers are fine here.

BTW, V-L, try that Uncle Mike's Combat grips - like the ones on the 696 and current 10's, 66's, etc (Currently $30 from S&W Accessories.). They enclose that backstrap on the 296 - really helps with that 'hump' getting you, albeit at a cost due to the increased size. My 296 hits POA at 12yd with those Blazers, I guess I was fortunate. Great little piece, that 296.

Stainz

[VictorLouis]

BTW, V-L, try that Uncle Mike's Combat grips - They enclose that backstrap on the 296 .
No need, but I DID have them with me just in case!;)

My 296 hits POA at 12yd with those Blazers.
I think that mine would, also. However, I'm more concerned with the use of my sights at longer ranges. I'm much more comfortable with something that prints POA/POI.

[BluesBear]

There's a 3" 629 on Gunbroker (http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=15756727)

[Dave T]

Beagle,

I was responding to your statement:

... they always seem to be selling something, don't they?

My point was that "they" are not selleing something. Reporting the results of scientific testing backed up by real world observations does not constitute "selling something".

How this statement insults you and requires an apology escapes me. What do you want me to apologize for, pointing out the inaccuracy of your blanket statement?

I am sorry I got involved in this discussion in the first place.

[Gewehr98]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62042

BTW, if one's comparing apples and oranges, at least keep them the same size.

First, I don't think I'd compare a .45 auto to a .44 special out of a snubby ... there's what, up to 150 fps difference between a 5" .45 and a 2 or 3 inch .44? Have you chrono'd your .44 spec. lately? I've heard of a lot of idealistic thinking regarding the published velocities.

I don't compare the .44 Spl loads from my 3" 696 with a 5" 1911 .45 ACP. I compare them to my 3.5" Officer's ACP. Use chronograph data from a S&W Model 24 if you're going to compare the longer-barreled guns.

And no, I won't apologize for calling that one out, either.

[Richard]

Gewehr98, your comparison is probably okay. Why? The barrel length of a semiautomatic includes the chamber and the cylinder on a revolver contains 5-8 chambers. You lose a few FPS at the cylinder gap but not a lot. Regards, Richard :D

[Stainz]

I'll compare Red Delicious to McIntosh... My .45ACP loads in my 4" 625 yield:

230gr FMJ 4.6gr TiteGroup 795fps 322 ft-lb KE
230gr FMJ 5.3gr W231 733fps 274 ft-lb KE

My .44 Special Loads in my 3" 696 yield:

215gr LSWC 4.5gr TiteGroup 736fps 258 ft-lb KE
200gr GDjHP CCI Blazer (Al) 839fps 312 ft-lb KE

Put those .44 Special rounds in my 4" 629MG, and the velocity increases... as does the bulk. I also employ only those .44 Special Blazers in my 2.5" 296, where the eek out 805fps and 287 ft-lb KE. The larger diameter (.451" vs .429") and more massive (230gr vs 200gr) .45ACP's should be more reassuring. However, I feel completely 'safe' with those Blazers in either my 296 or 696. The moonclipped .45ACP's are faster to reload - and in the 4" 625, I can actually ping a 15" plate t 110yd somewhat regularly. Neither of these attributes are beneficial in most PD scenarios... so, my .44 snubbies rule here!

Stainz

[commygun]

I shot a deer with a .44sp. Silvertip out of a Marlin 1894 about 7 years
ago. It dropped "as if hit by lightning" almost instantly. Of course,
many of it's inhabitants would debate whether Lewis County is part
of the real world.

[Highland Ranger]

Magnum and a big frame smith but no reason you couldn't just use it for 44 specials: 329 PD (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63802)

[30Cal]

Did the 696 come standard w/ a ported barrel? I picked one up used a couple years back and that was the case (stainless w/ Hogue rubber grips). It's got the smoothest DA trigger I've ever felt and it'll hit a pop can 3 outta 5 times at 75yds with 10.5grs Bluedot behind a 240gr SWC--with allotta smack. Not bad for a short barreled handgun! Whoever sold it didn't know what he had.

The 696 was built on a .357 K-frame (I think--it's not the standard N-frame) w/ a 5rd cylinder.

The factory .44Spl loads are generally ultra conservative. Before the rise of the .44Mag (and before handgun hunting became popular), this cartridge was #1 in the heavy handgun world. It is very capable and plenty adequate in the hunting function. The .44Mag has better factory loads, is more versitile (can fire both .44Mag and .44Spl) and has more Hollywood appeal. For those reasons, when folks buy a heavy handgun, the .44Mag is the obvious and by far the most common choice. That's the reason why you don't see many deer taken with a .44Spl; and not because the Special is inadequate.

Ty

[Majic]

30Cal, first off welcome to The High Road. I hope you enjoy it here.
Now the ported M696 you saw may very well have been a limited model built for the Lew Horton Distributing Co.
The M696 was built on the L-frame and not the K-frame.
I too agree with your opinion of why you see no usage of the .44sp in hunting. I'll add to your point that the handgun industry decided for us to cease most productions of .44sp models which also affects the usage. There just aren't that many .44sp handguns around suitable for hunting unless it's an expensive out-of-production classic.
A lot of US shooters have always been infatuated with the biggest and fastest even if it wasn't needed, but created their own reasons. This is obvious with the advent of 12 guage shotguns approaching 10 guage status, the various magnum chamberings in rifles used on whitetail deer, and the insistance on the need for magnum handguns for hunting and self defense. The lesser powered chamberings still do today the same job they have done in the past when given a chance.

[seeker_two]

Just thinking here....

Does anyone make a full-caliber wadcutter load in .44SPL? I'm thinking that a good old-fashioned 200-220gr. HBWC moving @ 800fps would make a good load for the .44 snubbies. The full-caliber would appeal to the penetration-over-expansion crowd, and the deep-seated bullet would offset any worries about bullet creep and cylinder binding. :cool:

Any thoughts? :scrutiny:

[BluesBear]

Does anyone make a full-caliber wadcutter load in .44SPL? There's a new company out here that has announced that they will be releasing .44 Special Full Wadcutters in a Self Defense loading this summer.

PM me if you want me to let you know when they become available.

[s&w 24]

I now have a 4" 441 taurus and a 2" 445 taurus both in 44 special and my dad has a 4" 431. The 431 out of the box works great and always has. Because of the fixed sights we have had a little trouble getting it to hit point of aim but it's coming around. The 445 had a few cylinder alignment problems but the factory took care of that in no time and it has printed most ammo very consistantly including 180 co-bon's, 200 gdhp, 215 swc, and 240 swc at various velocitys. I would say they are all fine guns and worth the money.

[paul105]

The following is a long post -- hope it's of some interest.

Following are chronograph results from both my 3" S&W 396 Ti Mountain Lite .44 Special and my 4" S&W 629 Mountain Pistol. I don't know what pressure this load generates, but the recoil is fierce in the 396 -- I am definitely not recommending this load for the .44 Special. This is not a CCW load -- it's my 4 legged critter backup in the 396 Ti for woods carry here in Montana. It is a mid range load in the .44 Mag. I got the load from Handloads.com http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=4.

Overcast
Temp: 85
Velocity at 3 paces (9 feet) from muzzle

Loaded up some of ref JohnK’s .44 special loads using 250gr CSWC, 17.0 gr of Lil’Gun, Rem .44 Sp 1x fired cases, and Federal standard large pistol primers. Chronographed 6 each from 3" S&W 396 Ti .44 Special:

1. 984 fps
2. 1,004 fps
3. 1,003 fps
4. 1,003 fps
5. 1,036 fps
6. 1,009 fps

Avg: 1,013 Fps
ES: 52 Fps

I couldn’t believe how closely this matched JohnK’s results.

Also chronoed same load (5 each) in a S&W 4” 629 Mtn Pistol:

1. 1,060 fps
2. 1,066 fps
3. 1,042 fps
4. 1,080 fps
5. 1,018 fps

Avg: 1,053 Fps
ES: 62 Fps

Again, real close to JohnK’s results:

Recoil:

I Changed the grips (Hogue Bantams came with the gun) on the 396 Ti to the “new?” Hoque, rubber recoil absorbing version, with covered backstrap (purchased from S&W directly). I couldn’t find these grips anywhere else and had never seen them before. They are fairly bulky but are very comfortable – much more comfortable than the Pachmayr gripper decelerators.

I was also trying out a new set of Aherns wood grips with no backstrap (these are the same as S&W puts on the new 329 Scandium .44 Mag) on the 629 Mtn Pistol. I also got these from S&W.

The 396 recoil was greater (more violent) than that of the 629, but the 396 was more comfortable to shoot, thanks to the excellent design of the new Hogue grips.

Loaded up a new batch of JohnK’s .44 special loads using 250gr New Leadhead’s Keith LSWC , 17.0 gr of Lil’Gun, . New RP .44 Sp cases, and newly purchased Federal standard large pistol primers. Chronographed 4 each from the 396 Ti:

1. 1,021 fps
2. 1,024 fps
3. 1,034 fps
4. 1,035 fps

I was checking to see if bullets were jumping the crimp. The fifth bullet jumped the crimp, it wouldn’t have tied up the gun but, I increased the crimp and the problem was solved.

Also, loaded 4.0gr Titegroup with everything else the same as above with following velocities in the 396 Ti 3 1/8":

1. 611 fps
2. 556 fps
3. 613 fps
4. 596 fps

Had previously chronographed the following loads (1st two from Speer Manual) thru the 396 Ti 3 1/8".

250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 13.0 gr H2400 949 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 13.0 gr H2400 964 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 13.0 gr H2400 936 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 13.0 gr H2400 924 fps

250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 10.0 gr Blue Dot 901 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 10.0 gr Blue Dot 863 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 10.0 gr Blue Dot 840 fps
250gr CSWC Fed 150 (Std) 10.0 gr Blue Dot 807 fps

Remington Factory 246gr RNL Factory Factory 683 fps
Remington Factory 246gr RNL Factory Factory 690 fps

[Gewehr98]

A 250gr SWC moving over 1000fps from a 3" .44Spl snubbie? How'd the brass look, good extraction and non-flattened primers? Wonder how recoil would be in my 3" stainless 696 - now I gotta get busy and load up some "special" .44 Specials like Paul did. :D

[paul105]

Extraction was easy. No cratering, no excess primer flattening. Primers are flatter than the Rem Factory 246gr Lead RN. I can't seem to get the hang of reading primer condition. I usually go by extraction in pistol cals, extraction and ejector marks in rifle cals. I repeat, I have no idea what pressure the 17.0 Lil Gun/250 CSWC load generates. Let your own comfort level be your guide. Check the penetration tests for the .44 Spl 250/1,000 fps vs. the 220 gr 30'06 http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=1&Year=all

[seeker_two]

Also, loaded 4.0gr Titegroup with everything else the same as above with following velocities in the 396 Ti 3 1/8":

1. 611 fps
2. 556 fps
3. 613 fps
4. 596 fps


Four grains? That's the load I use in my .38SPL light loadings. I'm surprised the bullets actually left the barrel...:scrutiny:

Check your manual. IIRC, you can go up a grain or two and get much better performance w/o any signs of stress. But then, I've always thought a 200gr. SWC @ 950fps was the "magic bullet" for .44SPL & .45Colt...:cool:

[ClarkK]

Village Metalworks makes a 200 gr .44 spl wadcutter designed for self-defense. It has a V-shaped cleave in the center that's intended to spread the bullet horizontally when it enters tissue. They are accurate and not unpleasant to shoot in my 296 Ti.

The bullet was designed by Jim Cirillo of New York PD Stakeout Squad fame. Village Metalworks sells the cartridges in .38 +P and .44 spl., and just the bullets in oother calibers.

Here are some gelatin results posted recently by Evan Marshall on his StoppingPower.net forum:


38 Special 148gr

.44 Special 200gr

Jim Cirillo designed rnd

velocities .38-average 802 fps-2" barrel
.44 Special-av 677 fps-2" barrel

Vyse 10% calibrated gelatin with 4 layers of denim

.38 Spec-20.5" penetration-one "horn" broke off and found 3" from permenant wound track

.44 Special-21.5" penetration-"expanded" to .467"

accurate and pleasant to shoot.


You can order them directly from Village Metalworks.

SafeStop (http://www.safestop.net/Frame.htm)

[BluesBear]

.38 Spec-20.5" penetration-one "horn" broke off and found 3" from permenant wound track
'It's like shooting them with a .380 FMJ and a .22 LR both at the same time."

.44 Special-21.5" penetration-"expanded" to .467"
"Wonder ammo turns your .44 into a .45! Film at 11."

Hmmmm I am less than impressed. a .429" bullet expanding to .467" is not exactly earth shattering performance.

Looked at their pricing. I can buy Gold Dots cheaper.