[Cokeman]

What O/U or SxS double barrel defense shotguns are on the market? Can you guys post site links or pics.

[Panzercat]

Asked this myself and the answer is almost invariably that a pump is magnitudes cheaper unless you tacticool a used one. I understand the minimalist/simplicity nature of the request, but that's not where the pricepoint is.

To answer your question, NEF (http://www.nefguns.com) comes to mind for some dirt cheap single barrels.

[zhyla]

There are several cheap SxS - Stoeger comes to mind, but there's also a Norinco that gets imported now and then.

[Kendal Black]

Are you ready for this? It has rails.

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php

Actually, I am in the minority on the question. I think a double shotgun is the optimum weapon for the person so mechanically disinclined that he, or she, will short stroke a pump or forget to charge an automatic. There are some people like that.

Consider the break action's advantages. To load, you put shells in the holes. You cannot put them in backwards. (You can push a shell backwards into a tube magazine.)

To unload and show clear you take the thingies out of the holes.

Edited to add: A double shotgun is also a terrific gun for the traveler. Legal almost anywhere, takes down into two short pieces so you don't have to carry an obvious gun case (attracting the attention of thieves, busybodies and officials)... Yeah, in some situations, best thing going.

[Cokeman]

Are you ready for this? It has rails.

So do these.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/ProdImageSm/75447.jpg

http://www.galleryofguns.com/ProdImageSm/HAM12OU11801.jpg

[Cokeman]

Asked this myself and the answer is almost invariably that a pump is magnitudes cheaper unless you tacticool a used one. I understand the minimalist/simplicity nature of the request, but that's not where the pricepoint is.

To answer your question, NEF (http://www.nefguns.com) comes to mind for some dirt cheap single barrels.

Now how are you answering my question? None of the NEFs are double barrels. I didn't ask about price point, single barrels, or pumps. Also, why would I get an NEF when I have a Mossberg 500?

Now list some double barrels. That's what I asked about. :neener:

[Kendal Black]

^^

[QUOTE=Cokeman;7342270]So do these.


So they do. What are those? :confused:

I'm interested in the concept: short, simple and if called into question, an Elmer Fudd gun, not a Rambo gun. As I said, very good for portability.

On the other hand, even a plugged duck gun has 50% more ammunition in it, so I'm slightly agnostic about the whole thing.

Stoeger's Condor Outback (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/Stoeger%20condor_outback_nickel_black.jpg) O/U has snubbed barrels and a rifle sight, but no rail.

Money no object? How about a Beretta Silver Hawk slug gun (http://www.beretta.com/Long-guns/Field-guns/Side-by-Side/471-Silver-Hawk-Slug/index.aspx?m=82&f=2&id=107)?

[Cokeman]

Click on Silver Synthetic Shorty (http://www.legacysports.com/products/esc_ou.html) under the picture and then you can look at the picture of the babe.

Here's the other one. (http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=75447&mfg=Maverick+Arms&mdlno=HS-12)

[Kendal Black]

:neener: I looked at the babe first.

[Cokeman]

Me too!

[Cokeman]

How much is that Beretta? I'd be just as happy with the Stoeger single trigger coach gun (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_coach_gun_single_triggers.php).

[moonpie]

i used to live in a twelve-wide trailer with a long and very narrow hallway,and even with a short pump could not turn without dropping the muzzle but could spin with ease with my old stevens/revelations coach gun. if your house gun is to big to maneuver you need to get a bigger house(joke)

[Kendal Black]

How much is that Beretta? I'd be just as happy with the Stoeger single trigger coach gun (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_coach_gun_single_triggers.php).

I asked about that, I think it was a year or so ago. What I heard is, that model isn't imported at present. Price on a plain old Silver Hawk is about three and a half to four grand.

Probably atsa deal, if you have a pig problem in the thousands of acres surrounding your Tuscan villa.

[moonpie]

in the coach gun category EMF twin trigger rabbit ear, or for something more modern the Mavrerick hs12 o/u even comes with rails

[Cokeman]

i used to live in a twelve-wide trailer with a long and very narrow hallway,and even with a short pump could not turn without dropping the muzzle but could spin with ease with my old stevens/revelations coach gun. if your house gun is to big to maneuver you need to get a bigger house(joke)

Or get this.

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

Let's see the Stevens.

[Cokeman]

in the coach gun category EMF twin trigger rabbit ear, or for something more modern the Mavrerick hs12 o/u even comes with rails

EMF? Link? I've never heard of that one.

[Kendal Black]

I suppose anything the Cowboy Action Shooters are shooting could be called 'tactical.' It was, for the time and place, though that was long ago. I will note this, though, that the classic American 'coach gun' was replaced very pronto once the pump gun came out. Just Saaayin...

[Kendal Black]

If in a hurry, one could just take grandpa's old SxS and duct tape a flashlight underneath.

[moonpie]

the nfa tax stamp on that cost more than i paid for the twin boomer but it sho' is purty

[moonpie]

Or get this.

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

Let's see the Stevens.
the nfa tax stamp cost more than i paid for the twin boomer but it sho' is purty

[moonpie]

EMF? Link? I've never heard of that one.
http://www.emf-company.com/store/pc/1878-Coach-Gun-c134.htm

[moonpie]

Or get this.

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

Let's see the Stevens.
how many she hold ? 2 ?

[bratch]

the nfa tax stamp on that cost more than i paid for the twin boomer but it sho' is purty

Being an AOW the stamp is only $5.

[1911Tuner]

I guess I'm one of those old codgers who sees a lot of merit in a short-coupled double shotgun for home defense. I'm especially fond of the ones with exposed hammers.

The overall length with a double is less than a pump or auto with the same barrel length, making it handier and less cumbersome in close confines. It offers the instant choice of different ammo on demand with just a switch of the trigger. Simpler lockwork means there's less to go wrong.

I also don't give the two-shot capacity limit much concern. Most criminal invasion teams aren't exactly made up of well-disciplined and highly motivated people, and they probably couldn't define "Unit Cohesion" if their lives depended on it. If one of their homies is lying on the floor, clutching at his guts...squirming and puking and screaming for mommy...the others are very likely to create a door where there isn't one in order to make their escape.

Then, there's always that pistol...

[moonpie]

I guess I'm one of those old codgers who sees a lot of merit in a short-coupled double shotgun for home defense. I'm especially fond of the ones with exposed hammers.

The overall length with a double is less than a pump or auto with the same barrel length, making it handier and less cumbersome in close confines. It offers the instant choice of different ammo on demand with just a switch of the trigger. Simpler lockwork means there's less to go wrong.

I also don't give the two-shot capacity limit much concern. Most criminal invasion teams aren't exactly made up of well-disciplined and highly motivated people, and they probably couldn't define "Unit Cohesion" if their lives depended on it. If one of their homies is lying on the floor, clutching at his guts...squirming and puking and screaming for mommy...the others are very likely to create a door where there isn't one in order to make their escape.

Then, there's always that pistol...
preaching to the choir

[Jason_W]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the Escort O/U?

It's kinda cool looking but conventional wisdom seems to be that if you drop anything less than a grand on a double gun, you're buying a boat anchor.

[MCgunner]

My beside gun is a 300 dollar Remington Spartan 20 gauge. I didn't buy it for self defense, it's my dove gitter, but with 3 buck loaded in it, it's a pretty formidable weapon for intruders. I don't need no stinkin' tacticool. rambo gun. I ain't a merc, I'm a home owner. :rolleyes: If I thought I really needed to invade foreign shores or something, I might get a short barrel for my camo Mossberg 12 gauge I use on ducks, but why bother? I ain't worried that my Spartan won't kill someone dead enough.

[MCgunner]

Eh, a pic is worth a grand....

http://i50.tinypic.com/11qh2mx.jpg

[heeler]

Well said Mr. 1911 Tuner.
About that Escort shotgun...When I first looked at the picture I thought it was just another Stoeger by another name,that is until I checked out the FAQ section of the supplied Legacy Link and see that the Escort was made in Turkey.
Pretty nice looking double really.

MCgunner,how long ago did you buy that Spartan and are they still available?
What length are those barrels?

[WaltonS]

I'd honestly advise against the Century coach guns... They're not MECHANICALLY unsound. Mine went bang every time. But once I was monkeying around at the indoor range with some Remington 3" 00bk (and yes, the gun was clean, and chambered for 3" shells!) when after about 10 rounds I noticed that one of my barrels had bulged out by about 1/4" from roughly 1.5" from the muzzle up. Century replaced the gun entirely but I don't completely trust it.

[MCgunner]

Barrels are 20". Bought it about 4 years ago and Remington no longer imports it. It's just a Baikal with Remington's stamp, same exact gun.

[Cokeman]

the nfa tax stamp on that cost more than i paid for the twin boomer but it sho' is purty

$5?

[Cokeman]

About that Escort shotgun...When I first looked at the picture I thought it was just another Stoeger by another name,that is until I checked out the FAQ section of the supplied Legacy Link and see that the Escort was made in Turkey.
Pretty nice looking double really.

Is that a good thing?

Are the Stoegers bad?

[oneounceload]

The Serbu Shorty starts life from the factory as a PGO gun when Serbu gets them. Therefore,it is a $5 transfer tax as it not a shotgun, but is classified as an AOW

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

Total capacity is 3, 2+1

[Cokeman]

I'd honestly advise against the Century coach guns... They're not MECHANICALLY unsound. Mine went bang every time. But once I was monkeying around at the indoor range with some Remington 3" 00bk (and yes, the gun was clean, and chambered for 3" shells!) when after about 10 rounds I noticed that one of my barrels had bulged out by about 1/4" from roughly 1.5" from the muzzle up. Century replaced the gun entirely but I don't completely trust it.

This one?

http://www.centuryarms.com/Century/pages/72b_sg1060n.gif

[Kendal Black]

The Pioneer coach gun is getting good reviews and here they are: http://www.pioneer-pac.com/productreviews.html

Somewhat pricey at over a grand. It's a Greener type with outside hammers and a thumb safety which is, at least, not automatic. Has extractors, not ejectors, in line with the cowboy thing.

What I would look for in a defensive double is automatic selective ejectors and a hammerless action without automatic safety. These features cut down on the handling operations necessary to load and fire and reload: The gun cocks itself and throws out the empties by itself.

Your local gunsmith can convert an automatic safety to non-automatic, if you like. Although he might raise an eyebrow at the idea, he can also fit a rail.

[moonpie]

The Serbu Shorty starts life from the factory as a PGO gun when Serbu gets them. Therefore,it is a $5 transfer tax as it not a shotgun, but is classified as an AOW

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

Total capacity is 3, 2+1
not bad . do a similar chop job to their o/u and have a shorter gun for the same barrel length and only give up one shot.

[1911Tuner]

Ain't preachin' to anybody. Just tossin' in my 2% of a buck. I like two-shoot scatterguns. ;)

[Cokeman]

The Pioneer coach gun is getting good reviews and here they are: http://www.pioneer-pac.com/productreviews.html

Somewhat pricey at over a grand. It's a Greener type with outside hammers and a thumb safety which is, at least, not automatic. Has extractors, not ejectors, in line with the cowboy thing.

What I would look for in a defensive double is automatic selective ejectors and a hammerless action without automatic safety. These features cut down on the handling operations necessary to load and fire and reload: The gun cocks itself and throws out the empties by itself.

Your local gunsmith can convert an automatic safety to non-automatic, if you like. Although he might raise an eyebrow at the idea, he can also fit a rail.

What's the appeal of the hammers? Old looking?

Explain more about the ejectors and safeties. I'm totally unfamiliar.

[kozak6]

I think the most interesting thing about the Stoeger defense model is the ported barrels. Aren't ported barrels on a short barreled gun that is likely to be fired in the dark/indoors without hearing protection a bad idea?

Explain more about the ejectors and safeties. I'm totally unfamiliar.

A lot of double barreled shotguns are equipped with automatic safeties. That means that the safety activates every single time you open and close the action. If you forget about it, it might cause problems in an emergency situation. I know I've missed a lot of clay pigeons simply because I've forgotten about it when using my friend's shotguns.

Some people argue that external hammer fired shotguns are safer since you can cock and decock them as you see fit.

When referring to double barreled shotguns, an extractor only lifts a shell out of the chamber far enough so that you can grab it and pull it out. An ejector kicks a shell out of the gun entirely.

If I remember correctly, automatic selective ejectors have both, and are designed to only extract unfired cartridges, and only eject fired cartridges.

[Kendal Black]

Explain more about the ejectors and safeties.

Oh. Yeah, doubles have some peculiar ins and outs to them.

Extractors versus ejectors: An extractor merely lifts the shell part way out of the chamber so that you can remove it. An ejector boots the shell forcibly out of the gun, throwing it clear when you open the action. If I'm not mistaken, the cowboy shooting rules say your double shotgun must not have ejectors--too modern, I suppose.

A selective ejector is one that only throws the shell out if it has been fired, so that, for example, if you have fired one and open the gun, the fired shell sails out while the unfired one stays with you.

An automatic safety is one that goes on by itself every time the gun is opened. It is a very common safety feature, and sensible enough, but it gets in the way of fast reload-and-shoot-again scenarios. A gunsmith can eliminate the linkage that pushes the safety on when you open the gun.

Not sure why people still like external hammers that must be cocked manually, for it is by now a very old and well proven technology to have the gun cock itself for you, as you operate it--saving a step. What I have heard on behalf of external hammers is some people like storing the gun loaded but uncocked, with no stress on the springs, or that they dislike having a cocked and loaded shotgun around. It seems to me the answer in either case is not to load the gun until you need it.

Edit: Heh, Kozak was typing at the same time I was. :)

[jimniowa]

I just ordered the Stoeger Coach Gun with dual triggers in 12 ga, 20" barrel and 3" chambers. This a SD weapon and a good addition to the pistol I carry in my truck.
Jim

[Ole Humpback]

I personally like external hammers for the very rare case of a misfire. I've had live rifle & shotgun rounds not fire on the first trigger pull and being able to recock the hammer without opening the action is a Godsend in that situation. Lets you know if you need to sit there for a while with the muzzle pointed downrange or if you just had a bad hammer strike the first time around.

[1911Tuner]

Quotes:

What I have heard on behalf of external hammers is some people like storing the gun loaded but uncocked, with no stress on the springs, or that they dislike having a cocked and loaded shotgun around.

It seems to me the answer in either case is not to load the gun until you need it.

Keeping the gun at the ready with hammer springs relaxed is an advantage...

because...

You may not have time to load the gun when you need it, but you probably will have time to cock the hammers.

[heeler]

Cokeman,I did not mean to infer the Stoegers are bad,it's just at first glance in the picture the Escort looked very similiar to the Stoeger.
These guns are just fine for their price build point and will likely last for many years.
I would not hesitate to buy the Stoeger or Escort if I was looking for a short defensive double.
In fact I like what I am seeing on either.

Edit to add...I personally dont see the appeal of the hammers as from my Mossberg 500 days a tang safety is so ergonomicaly correct and with either a single or double trigger I would think would be far faster mechanism than a cocking hammer.

[AlexanderA]

The exposed-hammer 20" SxS coach gun in 12 ga. would make a credible home-defense gun. The sight of those big muzzles has to be intimidating.

[Cokeman]

I think the most interesting thing about the Stoeger defense model is the ported barrels. Aren't ported barrels on a short barreled gun that is likely to be fired in the dark/indoors without hearing protection a bad idea?

Yeah, why did they do that? I shot my friends Taurus .357 that is ported and it felt like someone clubbed me on the head. My ears instantly started ringing. I had to put muffs over my plugs to shoot it again.

[RugerMcMarlin]

I looked at a Beretta over/under stakeout gun one time, the stock was pretty well beat so I passed. They were supposed to be popular with NYPD stakeout. I got that out of Jim Cirrillo's book on surviving gunfights. Wish I could remember the name of the book.

I would be very careful with my selection, although doubles have always been popular for defense. I would not buy a gun not fit for sporting clays. Warranty claims are even harder to collect on, for self defense guns. It might be more of an issue to your next of kin.

Update I found the book, Guns, Bullets and Gunfights, Jim Cirillo. Paladin press. While its a worthwhile read has nothing to do with Riot guns. I don't know where I got it maybe Mas Ayoob?

[WaltonS]

cokeman: That one.

[Cokeman]

Do we know of any others?

[Kendal Black]

We may have achieved proof by exhaustion.

My granddaddy kept a double barrel behind the door. I have an automatic.

If one is determined to go the double barrel route, quality is better than features. If the fancy ejectors hang up when you need them, they are of no use at all, so a good gun without the features is better than a cheap gun with bells on her toes.

[tkopp]

I have one of the two-trigger 20" Stoeger side by sides. Thanks to the length of the stock it's no shorter than any of my 'defensive' rifles or shotguns, all of which come with super-short stocks. It has plenty of other things going for it though; it's lightweight, breaks down into 3 pieces no longer than 20" each, shoots clays perfectly well, and can put a slug on target at 25 yards from an unsupported standing position without much trouble. Thanks to its portability I could see bringing it broken-down on a trip to safeguard a campsite or a seedy motel room.

[Kendal Black]

Thanks to its portability I could see bringing it broken-down on a trip to safeguard a campsite or a seedy motel room.

That is the best stated case. Best knapsack and suitcase gun ever invented.

[Cokeman]

Don't O/U double barrels usually come apart into two pieces pretty easily?

[armoredman]

CZ has a nice 20" 12ga coach gun, a Turkish import rebranded, Huglu IIRC. I wish they had a 20ga version my wife could use.

[Kendal Black]

Don't O/U double barrels usually come apart into two pieces pretty easily?

Same deal. Unclip the dingus on the underside of the forearm, remove the wooden part, tip the barrels forward and lift. You're done.

There are variations, but this is the usual scheme.

[Cokeman]

It would be nice to get one like the Escort and get the long and short barrels.

[Cokeman]

CZ has a nice 20" 12ga coach gun, a Turkish import rebranded, Huglu IIRC. I wish they had a 20ga version my wife could use.

http://www.cz-usa.com/assets/cache/20/3c/203c28c98c7d62e0441836c1cea504d3.png?

[RugerMcMarlin]

ZZZZ

[Panzercat]

@Cokeman

Sorry about that. Thought I there were a few O/Us in that link.
That said, kendal found the shotty i was initially looking for, but forgot the manufacturer's name. At least you're getting a better reception than the last time this topic was broached (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=561868).

I think the end synopsis there was the pawnshop being the best option :\

[Cokeman]

I looked at it last night and again this morning. And I think I like it, a subtle artistic blend of traditional O/U, and Liberal offending ugly black gun. Yup,
I want one.:cool:
Do dey make it wit pistol grip?

Which one?

[RugerMcMarlin]

zzzz

[Cokeman]

Did you fall asleep?

[goon]

The thing I don't like about the Stoegers is that the rifle sights on them seem to be permanently fixed.
At least give me windage adjustment. That way, no matter what, I can zero one barrel for slugs.

Overall, I'm one of those guys who'd like a SxS hammer gun for the traveling gun role. It bring as lot to the table and I'd like not having to stress any springs. When you break a hammerless gun down you leave the action cocked - I'm not aware of any way to lower the hammers or to quickly recock them before reassembling in the event that you needed the gun working really quick like.

Are the Baikal hammer guns still imported/available?

[MCgunner]

I bought a Felix Sarasqueta 12 gauge SxS in 1971. I still have it. It still shoots great. I've stored it mostly unloaded for all these years and there's nothing wrong with the hammer springs. If it ever breaks, it's a wall hanger, because there are no parts for it. I don't use it anymore, anyway. It's not steel shot compatible and I have better dove guns and it kicks like hell, anyway. I like my SxS 20 or my gas operated 12 gauge Winchester for doves now days and have choices for waterfowl.

Anyway, I'd not be concerned with the hammer springs. I've heard on this board, though, that you could pull the triggers on snap caps on most guns like my Spartan coach gun, take the forearm off, load it, put the forearm back on, and the hammers would not be cocked. You then must open the action and close it with the forearm on to cock the hammers. I've yet to try this, though, as one of these days I'm going to make me some snap caps from spent brass and shoe goo, just haven't gotten around to it.

[MCgunner]

I just got curious and went and found a couple of spent 20 gauge cases from last dove season to snap my Spartan on with the forestock off and, sure 'nuf, the above procedure works. It is now stored under my bed hammers down loaded with 3 buck. Just gotta remember before I have to use it, to break the action and close it and I'm good to go. :D Safely stored, not even an exposed hammer it can fall on.

[RugerMcMarlin]

I would be in serious trouble with an uncocked hammerless double, mostly because I've never even heard of this problem with leaving them cocked. I might be in a hurry when I'm going to get it. I can see pulling the trigger twice then whacking BG with it ,before I remember why it won't go off. At the time, they were invented, hammerless doubles were viewed as an improvement over hammer guns. I can see the arguement in favor of hammer guns being left uncocked. Trying to do that with a hammerless gun is backing up.
With a hammerless gun it requires the leverage of opening the gun to cock it.
The springs are gobs plenty heavy enough. I will leave mine, cocked.

I guess its like these people that are scared of cocked and locked 1911s. some guys leave them hammer down/empty chamber. some leave them cocked and locked, and ready to rock.:cool:

[Pfletch83]

You forgot to finish the rest of the line....Doc. :D

Not to derail the topic,.. but how short can a break action scatter gun's barrel be modified to a shorter (but still legal) length?

would 18.5 with a full stock be fine or would it need to be a 19 or 20 inch barrel (just wondered)?

[RugerMcMarlin]

18.5 if it still has a full stock. only needs to be 27" overall.

[1911Tuner]

Gunner...Before you close a hammerless shotgun on loaded chambers, ya might wanna check to see if the firing pins are protruding through the breechface. If they do, you may be in for a nasty surprise when you close it.

[MCgunner]

Done thought of that, Tuner, and they're not protruding. Apparently the Baikal has rebounding hammers.

With a hammerless gun it requires the leverage of opening the gun to cock it.
The springs are gobs plenty heavy enough. I will leave mine, cocked.

There's not a leverage problem with my two doubles, weight of the barrels will drop and cock the guns. However, in 40 years of hunting with hammerless double guns, cheap ones at that, I've NEVER seen a safety fail. Yeah, there's always a first time, I guess, but I think you're safer with a cocked and locked hammerless than an exposed hammer gun which might fall on a hammer and bust the sear and go off. Personal opinion. But, I kinda like the hammers down thing on mine. I think opening and closing it before the action starts won't be a problem for me since I can walk and chew gum pretty well. I'm going to store it that way for now, anyway. It's a safe room gun and we have an alarm system on the house (saves on insurance), too, to give me time to get ready before someone can break in two door locks with the alarm going off. It'll be noisy and I'm a pretty light sleeper.

Personal call as to how you store your shotgun, but I don't think, in light of the fact that I can store the gun hammer down as an option, that a hammer gun has ANY advantage over a hammerless as a home defense shotgun. It's faster to break and close the gun that cock two hammers and with the hammers down, if you're the paranoid type, the gun is safer than having exposed hammers that the gun can fall on and go off even though the gun isn't cocked. For me, since I don't do cowboy shooting and do a lot of bird hunting with my doubles, hammer guns are worthless. Give me the hammerless and I'll decide how I wanna store it.

[moonpie]

i have personally had two safety issues with cocked and loaded guns when i was younger and dumber. the first was with a 22 bolt action remington the second some years later with a stevens 12gauge double. a worn sear and firing pin on the rifle caused it to "bump fire" when jarred. a similar problem with the 1970s vintage shotgun resulted in both barrels firing with the pull of one trigger. we thought we had a handle on this by firing the wild side first , but a distinct CLICK when closing the action on an empty chamber quickly retired the gun for repairs. twenty years of industrial maintenance have taught me that any part can break, any link can sever, and any safety device can fail. the scars on my body prove the "safety between my ears" needs to be checked regularly for proper function. no advice is offered or implied . this is just an "it happened to me" post

[RugerMcMarlin]

Yeah, thats what I meant, I might be chewing gum. ja

[Vince45]

I used to be an R/O at a range and we had a speed shoot on bowling pins with pumps ,
plenty of people short stroked them from the pressure of competition let alone a home invasion. If youre gunna have a double it should be hammerless and ejector to get those next two cartridges in and ready to shoot again if required . With the Stoeger you
could mount a mini torch on the top rail and a bayonet on the bottam rail !

[MCgunner]

One reason I like using my hunting guns for home defense is familiarity with LOTS of use. I don't always NEED to practice as during hunting season I am putting lotsa rounds down range, and then there's the club country doubles shoots. Short stroking my pump wouldn't be a problem for me as i'm used to shooting "under pressure" of marauding ducks. I know the ducks ain't shootin' back, but neither is the paper in a match. I do a LOT of hunting and have been for 50 years. Familiarity breeds confidence.

But there's less going on with the double and for me that's a good thing as I can walk and chew gum, but toss in pumping a shotgun and, well, I'm not sure....:D Anyway, I'm quite familiar with both and own both, but shoot my double a little more often now days as I hunt doves a lot and like to play with it on country doubles off season. Also shoot a 10 gauge H&R on geese, a break open if only a single shot. It has a hammer, though. Well, there ya go, spit out that gum....:D

Moonpie, you speak wisdom and that's why I'm storing the gun hammers unsprung now that I know it can be done. It's a new gun, fairly new, but mechanical things CAN fail. Just because they haven't for me, don't mean it's impossible. On the hammerless gun stored hammers down, cocking is a simple flick of the lever, close the action again. Don't have to reach up for two hammers, seems faster to me, though I have no timer nor hammer gun to prove anything. At any rate, stored hammers down, it's safer than an exposed hammer gun in that there are no hammers exposed for it to fall over on or fall on if dropped.

Last thought, even when i've stored my double loaded, cocked, and locked, I've stored it under the bed, lying on the ground where it can't fall, barrels pointing at the wall. Yeah, loaded guns get my safety hackles up, regardless, and I have the unsprung gun in that same stored position. No sense giving brother Murphy a break, eh?

[RugerMcMarlin]

I guess as long as the lever isn't the mechanical part that breaks, you should be OK.:)

[MCgunner]

I'm not expecting anything to break on that Spartan/Baikal. It may be fugly, but it's built like a T34. :D

[T.R.]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/Coachgun.jpg

This short cannon is known a s Coach Gun. It takes a BATF License to possess.

TR

[RugerMcMarlin]

Mia Familia, calls that a Lupara. The beads a nice touch. Is that an anti knuckle bust pad on back of trigger guard?

Looks like those deals for swattin tigers off'n elephants though.
Yeah a HOWDY! Pistol.

[kozak6]

That's not a coach gun anymore. It may have been at some point, but not now.

Class III weapons generally aren't recommended for defense.

[lemaymiami]

Some years ago I did a tour of duty as the guy who ran our property room (small dept, south Florida) and received a sawed off that looked something like the one in the last pic.... What absolutely killed me was the low life had sawed down a gorgeous old L.C. Smith double (stolen, of course). Eventually it went into the ocean with a full garbage can's worth of old confiscated/evidence weapons. What a waste...

[DPris]

I have the Legacy Escort snub here. Has some good features, biggest complaint is the curved recoil pad.
This one's also regulated a bit to the left, not practical with slugs much beyond 25 yards.
Denis

[Cokeman]

This one? What do you mean by regulated?

http://www.galleryofguns.com/ProdImageSm/HAM12OU11801.jpg

[Jason_W]

I have the Legacy Escort snub here. Has some good features, biggest complaint is the curved recoil pad.
This one's also regulated a bit to the left, not practical with slugs much beyond 25 yards.

I'm also curious about your experience with this gun. Is it impractical with slugs past 25 yards due to the lack of sights, or other for other reasons.

The reason I ask is that I'm intrigued with the idea of an over/under brush gun for big game. I have a bit of cash right now (which is very unusual for me) and I'm considering buying one of these escorts and making a bit of a project of it (installation of an optic, aftermarket choke tubes, etc.)

If I can make the idea work, I'd only use the top barrel for slugs and keep the bottom barrel loaded with shot for opportunistic shots at small game if I decide I want to trade a possible deer for a definite grouse or rabbit.

I wouldn't need extreme long range with slugs, but something capable of keeping 5 shots in 6" at 50-75 yards would be nice.

[DPris]

"Regulated" in shotguns means constructing it so that both barrels shoot to at least close to the same point of aim at a given distance, and centered for windage relative to the bead.

I have no idea if this one's "normal" within the product line, but it shoots left.
I tested with slugs at 50 yards, both barrels impacted in excess of 2 inches left, top one was 1.5+ low, bottom up to 7 low.
Tried two slugs, results slightly different, but same general trend.
Didn't try closer.

Up to 25 yards with four different buckshot loads, obviously still shot left with both barrels, but not enough to make it unusable.
This sample, and it's probably a fluke, is pretty much a "shot" gun only, for all practical purposes. Slugs could be used, but best inside 25 yards.

The front fiber-optic base could be removed, and relocated slightly to the left in a new drilled & tapped hole in the vent rib, if slugs were needed. It'd be a little off-center & might be mildly annoying to look at, but could better regulate for windage.
The drop and vertical variation between the two barrels, you'd be stuck with.
Denis

[Jason_W]

The front fiber-optic base could be removed, and relocated slightly to the left in a new drilled & tapped hole in the vent rib, if slugs were needed. It'd be a little off-center & might be mildly annoying to look at, but could better regulate for windage.
The drop and vertical variation between the two barrels, you'd be stuck with.

Having an optical sight installed might also make it easier for any trend of the gun to push shots to one side.

The trick for me would be to determine before purchasing if it's even possible/safe to drill and tap the gun.

[DPris]

Yup, an optical would correct for the regulation, and eliminate the horizontal spread I got. There are those who claim a bead's all you need, but I personally have some difficulty in precisely centering the bead in the rib consistently from shot to shot when using slugs.

Without decent sights, it's very hard to determine the true accuracy potential of a shotgun barrel, as far as how it COULD group slugs at a particular distance.
If you can find the right mount, an optical could give you that top barrel utility you're looking for.

Denis

[Jason_W]

There are those who claim a bead's all you need, but I personally have some difficulty in precisely centering the bead in the rib consistently from shot to shot when using slugs.

I'm the same way. I can't hit a barn from the inside with a slug from a bead only barrel.

[DPris]

Welcome to the club. :)

I have beads on my SXS coachguns, but those are not used with slugs.
The Remingtons all have real sights, for slug & shot.
Denis

[goon]

DPris - I looked at those Stoegers and don't like that the sights are fixed. That was a mistake IMO, but one that could be corrected by a determined guy. Cut that rear sight out, cut a dovetail, and stick in someting that will give you windage adjustment - or have a gunsmith do it for you.

IMO though, I'd prefer a pump to that OU, just because one barrel means you don't have regulation problems.

[DPris]

I'd prefer definite sights if I were going to go with a short O/U, but you're right- they'd have to be at least drift adjustable for windage.

I have three 870s & three coachguns. The three advantages that the coaches offer are simplicity, speed, and compact dimensions (including breakdown for transport).
If two shots'll get the job done, no other type of shotgun can put 'em out as fast.
Denis

[wrs840]

I don't think it would be my first choice for HD, but I do own one Stoeger Coach gun, and it's pretty cool, fun, etc, everyone should get one, bla bla bla... Patterning tests are counter-intuitive, but suffice to say, with any sort of buckshot, it makes a real mess of things up to about 50 feet, and that's a hoot. I've had no problems or complaints with it either. I wish it had exposed hammers, but at least it has dual triggers.

[Capstick1]

The only bad thing about Double Barrel defense shotguns that I can think of is if you have a bunch of flesh eating zombies chasing after you, you'll only have time to take out two before you have to stop and reload. :)

[Jason_W]

I tried to order one of the silver synthetic shorties last night, but all nine of the suppliers my local gun shop works with were out.

[DPris]

They're still new, it'll take a while for the pipeline to catch up.
Denis

[Cokeman]

See if this works (http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=HAM12OU11801&index=2&mfg=Escort&mdl=Escort&cat=2&type=Shotgun&cal=All&fin=&sit=&pid=&inv=)

[RugerMcMarlin]

Capstick, RULE 1 Cardio!:D

[RX-178]

Yeah but you guys are forgetting Rule #2, the Double Tap :D

[Capstick1]

Always look in the back seat before you get into your car. Make sure all the other stalls are clear before you use a bathroom toilet. :)

[Capstick1]

...

[Doxiedad]

I'm really digging that Stoeger Double Defender. Might pick one up in 20ga for the wife since she won't shoot my Benelli

[ghitch75]

this.....

http://i46.tinypic.com/1j2c1x.jpg

[MCgunner]

I don't AIM a shotgun except for slugs and I hunt with rifles when I need a slug. I POINT the gun and a bead is best. It comes from bird hunting I suppose. But, at self defense, in home ranges, why is a gun that shoots off 1.5" at 50 yards a hinderence? Is your bedroom 50 yards wide?

[MCgunner]

Second look, OP says "defense" and not "home defense", so I guess if you're shooting at zombies from 100 yards......but good luck in court claiming "self defense" in such a scenario.

[Cokeman]

http://www.fabarm.com/images/products/elos-al-traqueur2.jpg

[Adam]

I wouldn't go any lower than CZ. Double barrel is very specific shotgun in fact. It takes a lot of effort to make it right (which means price tag is usually higher). Cheap SxS may be functional, but that's it. Take a look at CZ line of shotguns. They are the best value for your money IMO.

[dprice3844444]

those maverick arms shotguns shown above would make nice hunting pieces,interchangable chokes.can put the rifled slug choke tube in one or both.nice part is it can be cut down to real shot barrel length and hidden real well.be a good entry weapon.dunno if it has auto ejectors,which would be ideal.

[Dave Markowitz]

I picked up a Stoeger Coach Gun in 20 gauge today. It's amazingly light, fast, and short. I have an Uplander 20 gauge but wanted something shorter for home and campsite defense. This CG has 20" barrels choked IC/M. The chokes are fixed, no tubes.

It's rainy today so I couldn't take it out back to get some decent pics, but here are a couple quick cell phone pics:

http://www.flintlock.org/pics/var/resizes/Stoeger-Coach-Gun/Stoeger%20Coach%20Gun%20Left.jpg?m=1315338274

Very nice figure on the forend:

http://www.flintlock.org/pics/var/resizes/Stoeger-Coach-Gun/forend.jpg?m=1315338274

I'd prefer one of these for defense over Stoeger's tacticool Double Defense, because this one has double triggers which should be more reliable, IMO.

I'll post a range report after I get to shoot it, probably in a couple weeks.

[Doxiedad]

I like the Stoeger coach gun, but would rather have black synthetic stock

[okc-zee]

Here's my stoeger coach gun...I bought it new a couple of years old...I shortened the stock to 12" LOP and put a limbsaver on it,replaced the stock firing pins with anodized ones,removed the safety and slicked up the action with some 600 grit sandpaper so it opens and closes with ease... polished the chambers so the shells drop free when the action opens...it's got roughly 2K rounds thru it without a hiccup...It's one of the guns that sits by the bed...I've been surprised by the reliability of it...I also have a 12 and a 20 ga stevens,but didn't want to modify em'...
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/deadinokc/CoachGun003.jpg

[rwcnv]

Go here, a great gun, no reason to be cheap when defending the home. http://www.perazzi.it/pages/en_perazzi_home_page_inglese.aspx

[Dave Markowitz]

okc-zee, that looks good. Once I shoot the gun and prove its reliability, I plan to get a recoil pad installed, and also get the safety converted to manual-only. I already lightly polished some of the bearing surfaces with some Flitz metal polish. It still needs some break-in.

[Red Cent]

Dave, you are going to find that it will hurt. Better get a good soft pad.

[Red Cent]

One can pick up some very nice firearms here.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=14

[Dave Markowitz]

Dave, you are going to find that it will hurt. Better get a good soft pad.

I'm planning on getting a Pachmayr Decellerator or a Limbsaver installed. I figure it can't hurt worse than one of my H&R Toppers. ;)

[addedpulp]

The cheapest coach gun I've seen is the CIA at $280. The cheapest (decent new) pump I've seen is the NEF Pardner for around $150, which is about the same on a good used Mossberg.

[BullfrogKen]

Dave, those little coach guns are awesome.


I have a Remington 12 ga by our bed here at night service the same purposes as yours.

[VA27]

If I were dead set on a double, I'd take a look at the 1878 clones (Cimmaron Firearms and others). It's a hammer gun, but the hammers curve over the grip toward the center so that you can cock both hammers at once with just a sweep of your thumb. Add sling swivels and a sling and you're set.

[ChuteTheMall]

Those hammered doubles such as TTN or Cimarron 1878 have one tactical advantage in that they can remain loaded but uncocked indefinately. No safety gadgets needed.

But like a single action revolver, they won't go bang if you forget to cock the hammers.:rolleyes:BTDT

[788Ham]

Dave, Thanks for the pics, you've really upped my interest in one of these! Guess I'm gonna go get me one now.

[oneounceload]

Let the gun polish the mating surfaces by themselves - they are SUPPOSED to be tight when new and when loose can become a hazard as the gun can be "loose on the face" - people pay dearly to have guns "put back on the face"

[FruitCake]

Man I want one so bad and you all are very bad influnce.
I just bought a single shot topper used for $70, couldn't pass that up.
Next is a side by side and was looking at a Stoeger double defense in 12GA.
Short, compact, lightweight and so simple to use.
There's just something about side by sides that catches my undivided attention when I go to the gun shop.
Now if I could only talk the wife into letting me get one.
Well this month is my Bday and maybe shell go out and buy me one, ya right, she is still pissed of I bought the single shot topper. She said the only thing I'm gonna get for my Bday is a new pair of workboots. :cuss:

[nobody1369]

where can i get a pistol grip stock like this for a stevens 311a? the one in T.R. 's photo

[Daniel]

Since I'm in the land of the free from autos and pumps (for some reason, pump rifles and lever shotguns are fine), I have a basic Stoeger 12 gauge Coach Gun for defense from marauding types.

Even if I could buy a pump now, I'd still keep the double for defense, as it's what I learnt to shoot with, and I know how it works.

I don't see two shots of 00 ready, with another several ready to reload on the stock, to be inadequate.

It's most likely I'll never have to fire more than one shot in an emergency.

I've had to fire one shot in an emergency, and that got the job done.

[regularjoe]

I will just toss this out, but I bought a Century Coach. I took it home and started my "New Gun Ritual" which is dis assembly and a thorough cleaning of all packing grease. Well, to make a long story short, on the inside of both barrels were imperfections. One was about six inches long, 1/32" wide, and at least 1/64" deep. I took it right back to Big 5. Just my experience with Century.

[PBR Streetgang]

I came into possession of a Winchester Model 24 SxS (cheap) many years ago...A friend of mine who is a long time gunsmith shortened my LOP to 12 inches and the barrels to about 18.5 inches. It does the job and I'm happy with it.....