piston bolt system.....an idea.


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Zanad
May 30, 2011, 02:29 AM
the circular gas system on another thread got me thinking about an idea...


Could you theoretically get rid of all springs in a gun?



the drawing does not show where the hammer that activates the firing pin. That is located in between the arm.

it does not show a slight off center on the center hole. it should be higher than where it is to help move the armature in a clockwise rotation.

I haven't figured out if it could be a gas impingement or simple blow-back because I don't know if it would work.


this would most likely be used in some sort of bull pup system.



So, like it, hate it, ways to improve it?

thanks.





comments?

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Apocalypse-Now
May 30, 2011, 03:02 AM
no.

Shear_stress
May 30, 2011, 07:43 AM
The question is why? Springs are the cheapest, simplest and most reliable way of generating force.

A successful design is the result of answering a meaningful question or addressing a significant need. Replacing all the springs on a gun does neither.

moonpie
May 30, 2011, 08:27 AM
no.
yes in theory, but you would need some way to store enough gas at sufficient pressure and then release it at the proper time to reseat the bolt. on my job i repair several machines that use this principle with compressed air or hydraulics.i partially agree with shear stress that "at the moment" springs are simpler and easier but a successful design is one that works. the concept is possible but you have a long row to hoe before it becomes practical.of course it is possible that Sig or H K already have something similar for the next Shot Show

Unistat
May 30, 2011, 09:15 AM
You can definately get rid of springs, but you have to replace them with something that is probably more complex.

For example, one could design a gun that was electrically operated and fired (either by electronic ignition or by a solenoid firing pin) but then you would need all sorts of extra logistical requirements for no real improvement.

kozak6
May 30, 2011, 05:51 PM
What is the point in removing springs? They are an established, lightweight, very cheap, and very reliable technology.

What if the bolt is in some intermediate stage? How does it start? How does it stop?

A firearm isn't directly analogous to a steam engine or a car engine. An engine takes rapidly cycling linear forces, and turns them into a continuous rotary force for the purpose of doing work.

What is the purpose of a firearm? To fire a bullet.

Would you design a car engine to fire a single piston out the side of the engine block, and then stop?

the circular gas system on another thread got me thinking about an idea...
Was it this thread?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=594092

Apocalypse-Now
May 30, 2011, 06:27 PM
yes in theory, but you would need some way to store enough gas at sufficient pressure and then release it at the proper time to reseat the bolt.

what of the hammer spring, my friend? can't actuate that part with gas pressure.

could some springs be eliminated? maybe, but certainly not all. :)

Remo223
May 30, 2011, 06:45 PM
if ducati can eliminate the valve springs on their motorcycle engines, then someone should be able to eliminate the springs on a firearm. I don't see the point in doing it though. The benefit coming from eliminating springs on a motorcycle engine does not exist on a firearm.

zollen
May 30, 2011, 06:57 PM
the circular gas system on another thread got me thinking about an idea...


Could you theoretically get rid of all springs in a gun?



the drawing does not show where the hammer that activates the firing pin. That is located in between the arm.

it does not show a slight off center on the center hole. it should be higher than where it is to help move the armature in a clockwise rotation.

I haven't figured out if it could be a gas impingement or simple blow-back because I don't know if it would work.


this would most likely be used in some sort of bull pup system.



So, like it, hate it, ways to improve it?

thanks.





comments?
The concept is sound, you just need to design the system such a way that it would not interfere with the standard AR components.

Here is what I have been thinking... Each complete circular cycle would effectively perform a single reciprocating motion. Here are my questions: How big would the wheel is needed in order to have enough torque for the entire operation (i.e. pushing the very heavy BCG, stripping a bullet from a magazine, unlocking the blot...etc). How would you stop the wheel from over-turning itself?

I suspect this type of circular piston system would produce less recoil than the conventional reciprocating system. The concept may also simplified the design of auto-fire and burst fire mode.

Since this is no longer a DI system where hot gas would attack the BCG, a composite light weight impact resistance BCG would dramatically increase the feasibility of this concept.


Nice drawing btw, You did way better than mine! :)

zollen
May 30, 2011, 07:23 PM
I have not yet come up a way to effectively translate the circular motion into a linear motion without using pinion gears. The ideal design would allows multiple circular motions to be translated into a single reciprocating motion without using any gears.

kozak6
May 30, 2011, 07:29 PM
It almost reminds me of a toggle action.

Zanad
May 30, 2011, 08:06 PM
crap...... I forgot to draw something huge. the problem arose when i tried to make an animation..... I meant so that the rotating piece would make a full 360 and on the returning 179 degrees of motion would strip a round and lock the bolt in place...... not hit the center pin. so consider this action to work like a car engine piston reworked into a firearm.


aw well, more drawing to do.

Owen
May 30, 2011, 08:12 PM
it might be interesting for a machine gun, but how would you stop it?

Six
May 30, 2011, 08:17 PM
Would be interesting to concept as a hand cranked automatic if not a blowback.

kozak6
May 30, 2011, 09:29 PM
How would it lock? How would it unlock?

If "lockup" occurred somewhere before the bolt position shown above, it could possibly function not unlike a lever delayed blowback.

Have a look at this recoil operated toggle lock:
(refresh the page to restart the animation if it stops)
http://img0.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/11018/11018090fed4c71cc226845e8bab8db8de9b375e.gif


Is a wheel really necessary?

Zanad
May 30, 2011, 09:41 PM
please note this is a project in progress and will adjust my drawings accordingly.

SlamFire1
May 30, 2011, 10:01 PM
Could you theoretically get rid of all springs in a gun?

Sure just use batteries and electromechanical devices to close the breech.

Maybe a small nuclear reactor powering a steam engine, or a fuel cell. Maybe a wind turbine, thermal expansion of metals, or generically engineered gerbels in cages.

Lots of ideas.

zollen
May 30, 2011, 10:12 PM
How would it lock? How would it unlock?

If "lockup" occurred somewhere before the bolt position shown above, it could possibly function not unlike a lever delayed blowback.

Have a look at this recoil operated toggle lock:
(refresh the page to restart the animation if it stops)
http://img0.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/11018/11018090fed4c71cc226845e8bab8db8de9b375e.gif


Is a wheel really necessary?
Please correct me if I am wrong. If I understood your diagram correctly, were you suggesting there are more simple mechanisms to perform the delay shell extraction operation?

Zanad
May 30, 2011, 10:33 PM
I'm updating photo's now but I'm thinking the mechanism will lock by using something similar to an AR-15 bolt with a shorter carrier to reduce size. since i dont have a model to work with on an ar-15, it may or may not be included.

Zanad
May 30, 2011, 11:15 PM
update....
OK, i solved a few problems that were found in the drawing.

I realize I cant get rid of every single spring in a gun because I still need the trigger spring.

I need help on where to put the firing pin.

should I make it a 2 piece pin or put the pin at an upward angle? Like 10 degrees or so.

thank you for your help and this is an ongoing project...

kozak6
May 30, 2011, 11:27 PM
How does it lock? How does it unlock? What rotates the bolt head?

It's probably easier to use a gear for rendering purposes, but most bolt heads only have 2-8 locking lugs.

Zanad
May 31, 2011, 12:12 AM
the front bolt itself works similar to an AR-15, I just couldn't render it properly.

Justin
May 31, 2011, 10:22 AM
For example, one could design a gun that was electrically operated and fired (either by electronic ignition or by a solenoid firing pin) but then you would need all sorts of extra logistical requirements for no real improvement.

There are a small number of dedicated target pistols that work via the use of electronically activated triggers and/or solenoid-powered firing pins.

They are finicky, to say the least.

Vern Humphrey
May 31, 2011, 10:24 AM
Could you theoretically get rid of all springs in a gun?
Yes. Some howitzers work by compressing gas in recoil, and return to battery using the energy of the expanding gas.

Sam Cade
May 31, 2011, 04:42 PM
Some howitzers work by compressing gas in recoil, and return to battery using the energy of the expanding gas

Gas springs aren't really suited to most small arms use though, just because of their inherent complexity, heat sensitivity and size.
Remember, a gas spring has an extended length at least Twice the length of stroke.

zollen
May 31, 2011, 06:09 PM
update....
OK, i solved a few problems that were found in the drawing.

I realize I cant get rid of every single spring in a gun because I still need the trigger spring.

I need help on where to put the firing pin.

should I make it a 2 piece pin or put the pin at an upward angle? Like 10 degrees or so.

thank you for your help and this is an ongoing project...
These are very nice designs, are you thinking of using torsion spring for storing energy so that the back wheel could complete the reciprocating motion?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNk3yniNiU2F3h37_v6AgeatCChZ1zlL4EzU3kJdA813O5zC92&t=1

Shear_stress
May 31, 2011, 07:32 PM
but how would you stop it?

Exactly.

How do you ensure that the bolt doesn't keep reciprocating and wind up out of battery? In other words, what stops the thing from free wheeling?

Also, can you explain why you think it's worthwhile to replace most of the springs in a firearm? What is the requirement or unmet need this design addresses? If it's just an intellectual exercise, fine. But, to an engineer and a generally pretty pragmatic person, it seems that you have removed the simplest, cheapest and most reliable part of the firearm and replaced it with a toggle system that will need even more complexity designed into it to ever make it work.

Zanad
June 1, 2011, 06:15 PM
Also, can you explain why you think it's worthwhile to replace most of the springs in a firearm?

the idea more or less started as an intellectual design and started with no springs. then i saw that I couldn't because I need a trigger spring.



Here's what I perceive in this design.

less perceived recoil as its directed down when the shot is fired.

No buffer spring like that of an AR-15.

might be less weight.

might increase rate of fire. like that of auto or bump fire.

Owen
June 1, 2011, 06:16 PM
why would it recoil downward?

Zanad
June 1, 2011, 06:21 PM
why would it recoil downward?

I believe it would recoil downward because of were the center pin is on the rotation arm. It is located higher than the connecting rod for the carrier group and the idea is to make the armature to swing in a downward force. albeit this is only a small amount of time in the action,i think it would prove critical..

I believe it does help.

Sam Cade
June 1, 2011, 06:35 PM
I believe it would recoil downward because of were the center pin is

Recoil is always going to be linear along the bore axis.

Muzzle rise is caused by the weapon wanting to rotate around a point below that axis of thrust.

CWL
June 1, 2011, 08:45 PM
For example, one could design a gun that was electrically operated and fired (either by electronic ignition or by a solenoid firing pin) but then you would need all sorts of extra logistical requirements for no real improvement.

Remington EtroniX was an electrically fired rifle from the 1960's-1970's. Very well reviewed but never caught on.

Currently, there is at least one company (RMFTC) that still manufactures rifles with electronic firing systems.

Sam Cade
June 1, 2011, 09:15 PM
Remington EtroniX was an electrically fired rifle from the 1960's-1970's. Very well reviewed but never caught on.


EtronX date from 1999-2004, roughly.

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