Need 9mm info


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mdThanatos
May 30, 2011, 11:30 PM
Ok so I have decided that I want to add a 9mm to my collection, don't ask why. I just do.

The thing is I don't want another polymer pistol, already have an XD45 and its ok.

So given that the requirements I have for a 9mm pistol are the following, No polymer, Double stack with at least 15 round capacity and full size frame, I have kind of figured that what I would be looking at for comparisons would be the following:

Beretta 92
CZ 75 and 85
Sig 226


So am I missing any possible contenders for me to do my research on in order to narrow it down?

Thanks,

MD

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gathert
May 30, 2011, 11:32 PM
Could look for a Browning Hi-Power.

ugaarguy
May 31, 2011, 02:36 AM
BHP, as gathert has already mentioned; and the S&W 3rd Gen metal frame guns in 9mm. If you really want to open up your budget, and can find one, the HK P7M13 (although two rounds shy of your capacity requirement) is one fascinating weapon.

metalman8600
May 31, 2011, 02:38 AM
I vote Beretta 92

kozak6
May 31, 2011, 03:38 AM
There are the Ruger P89 and P85. They are likely to be significantly cheaper than your other options.

Shadow 7D
May 31, 2011, 04:27 AM
GO SHOOT THEM
I can't tell you what will be the right gun for you
They are proven platforms, and it's UP TO YOU
to decide what works best for you

BUT, I would add the EAA clones, both the CZ clone witness, and the SIG clone EZ
AND the S&W automatics, which are all metal too.

KodiakBeer
May 31, 2011, 06:02 AM
Get a Hi Power. Nothing else comes close.

Pilot
May 31, 2011, 10:19 AM
You will be well served with a Browning Hi-Power or CZ-75 variant.

RidgwayCO
May 31, 2011, 10:47 AM
There's lots of parts and inexpensive magazines out there for the Beretta 92. Just sayin'...

SigP229R
May 31, 2011, 11:21 AM
Nothing wrong with the Berettas I have two , a standard full size 92 and a 92 Centurion which is the compact size. There are though several good used pistols on the market you might want to consider the Sig P6 and the S&W5903. They are both excellent pistols, while the sig is single stack the S&W's are double stack. Also you can from time to time find used Sig P229's in 9mm and 226's.

mdThanatos
May 31, 2011, 01:47 PM
Ok just to clarify, at this point I am trying to make my list of what to look at and want to know if I have missed anything from my original post.

So far the additions to the list of potentials have been the Hipower, 3rd gen smiths, Rugers and EAAs/clones.

Any others that have been forgotten? Remember this is the first step in my decision making, finding all the potential candidates that meet the requirements, not final selection.

Shadow 7D
May 31, 2011, 02:09 PM
RANGE TIME

and the Beretta/Storage cougar,
IMI Jericho/MR baby eagle- also a CZ clone
BUL pistols -century arms has them for ~300, also a Israeli CZ based pistol

Apocalypse-Now
May 31, 2011, 02:11 PM
CZ75 beats the BHP any day of the week, and twice on sunday :)

there's a reason the CZ75 is the second most copied handgun design in the world, next to the 1911.

modifiedbrowning
May 31, 2011, 02:13 PM
Checkout the Bersa Thunder 9 fullsize. Great pistol at a great price.
www.bersa.com

rellascout
May 31, 2011, 02:14 PM
For me there is no finer all steel full sized 9mm pistol than the Browning Hi power. IT simply fits my hand and points more naturally than any other 9mm pistol. Some of the others that are being mentioned are not full sized pistols.

Is there a particular barrel length you are looking for?

IF you are willing to shorten it a bit to include pistols like a baby eagle and beretta cougar you should consider the Sig P229 and Sig P228.

Pukindog12
May 31, 2011, 02:20 PM
Stoeger Cougar 8000 F. Beretta owns Stoeger. I have two of them. Great gun for a great price. No failures whatsoever out of mine and is accurate as can be.

rellascout
May 31, 2011, 02:29 PM
When did a 3.6" barrel become a fullsized gun?

Thompsoncustom
May 31, 2011, 02:31 PM
CZ75 beats the BHP any day of the week, and twice on sunday

there's a reason the CZ75 is the second most copied handgun design in the world, next to the 1911

agreed, tho it may just be his opinion I also think he is right and being one of the most copied guns there has to be a reason for it.


If you are going to use this gun for a all-around weapon or carry then the cz 75b would be the way to go but if it is going to only be a range gun then I would look at the cz 75b SA.

Really this all comes down to opinions so once you get a list of guns your thinking about go hold them and your list will probably get shorter. With the remaining ones you could go to a range that lets you rent guns and get a real full for the ones you have left.

PO2Hammer
May 31, 2011, 02:34 PM
Looks like you have three good contenders there.

I've owned the P226 and the Beretta, both very good guns, would love to try a CZ (love their rifles).

Some things to consider are the Beretta's slide mounted safety/decocker (I didn't like that feature). The beretta is a smooth shooter though.

I like the Sig's controls, but not everybody does. The slide release is quick and easy, and I love the decocker. The P226 is a very accurate gun.

CZ is the only one that allows for cocked and locked shooting and has a pretty good following here.

Sam1911
May 31, 2011, 03:00 PM
Alllrighty-then! So I've deleted about ten posts here that served no purpose besides argument for the sake of argument. Perhaps a public notice to learn to accept others' opinions without picking every nit will serve to encourage a higher standard of conduct even better than handing out infractions.

On a related note, the next person to whine that someone's opinion is subjective gets a 5-day vacation. ;)

Apocalypse-Now
May 31, 2011, 03:14 PM
^^well said, and thank you! :)


If you are going to use this gun for a all-around weapon or carry then the cz 75b would be the way to go but if it is going to only be a range gun then I would look at the cz 75b SA.

good call, i like their SA competition models :)

rellascout
May 31, 2011, 03:46 PM
The CZ 75B is a good pistol. I personall prefer the BHP when it comes to full sized all steel 9mm but the 75B is a solid choice. I have smaller hands and the 75B does not fit me well in DA mode and I prefer the SA setup on the BHP.

Positives of the CZ 75B:

Flexibility... you can carry it cocked and locked or you can carry it hammer down in a DA/SA config.

Accuracy... this gun will shoot well in the right hands. It is more than up to the task of combat accuracy and will be mechanically more accurate than most shooters.

Durable for the most part. Factory springs are weak and they have some other issues with small parts breakage but for the most part are durable guns.

Ergonomics: which is subjective but when the designed them they barrowed from other proven platforms and designed something that works for a lot of shooters.

Decent aftermarket support from companies like CZ Custom. This is in large part due to their growning popularity in gun games.

Negatives on 75b:

Trigger camming. Every single CZ I have ever shot has it to some degree. Some are worse than others. This is due to its overly complicatd trigger design. It can be fixed by guys like Hobell but it is not a task most people can complete on their own.

The pistol has a long DA reach. It is not good for those with smaller hands. The trigger reach in the DA pull IMHO is longer than it needs to be in relation ot the grip.

The gun is overly complex when compared to others like a BHP, 1911 or even a Sig. IIRC there are a total of 44 parts in a CZ 75B.

IIRC the barrels are not chrome lined.

Springs are weak. Recoil spring and trigger return spring are known weakness. This is easily correctable using better quality springs like Wolf. It has been acknowledge many times by CZ that some of the recoil springs rated at

CZ customer service is avg at best. Even with their US presence they are not always helpful. I have interacted with them on two occasions and they would grade out a C in my book.

Onmilo
May 31, 2011, 03:58 PM
Nobody has mentioned the Smith and Wesson 59 Series?
These are still available on used market and can be very good metal frame 15 shot 9mm choices.
My favorite is the Model 459 series.
The Walther P88 series is another decent metal frame full capacity 9mm though harder to find on the used market and somewhat expensive.

Back in the late 70s to mid 80s when 15 shot 9mm pistols were first getting popular the only real serious choices were the Beretta 92s, the Smith and Wesson 59 series, and the Browning Hi-Power.

Walther P88s and CZ-75s were available but VERY expensive at that time, around $650+ and that was serious cash back then.

rellascout
May 31, 2011, 04:04 PM
BHP is my personal go to all steel 9mm. It fits my hand and points naturally for me. I have smaller hands but this gun fits me.

BHP Advantages:

The BHP fits a lot of sized hands. Smaller hands have no issues. Some people with larger hands have trouble with hammer bite but after market hammer from C&S and Novak can correct it.

Elegant simplicity of design. It is an easy gun to work on. It requires very few tools and can be worked on by almost anyone using proper instructions.

Accurate. This gun will out shoot most shooters. It is more than accurate for its intended combat roll.

Good SA trigger with a good reset. It is not a 1911 trigger but it is good after you remove the mag disconnect and lighten the hammer spring. Both are easy to do.

Tons of aftermarket support. People like C&S and Noval offer more parts than you will need. Grips are everywhere etc... Sights are plentiful.

Durable... dispite what some people claim. All BHPs can shoot +p ammo if you swap out the recoil spring to a #18 spring. MKIIIs do not even require that change. They are combat proven all over the world and have been deployed by more armies than any other service pistol. IIRC.

BHP Disadvantages

#1 downside to the BHP is cost. It is a $700 gun NIB.

Hammer bite... this is real and effects some shooters with larger hands.

Older MKIIs and pre MK guns have small sights without dovetails.

Out of the box triggers can be hit or miss. They use a hammer spring that is way too heavy. The mag disconnect is a uncessary part which harms the trigger pull. Both are correctable but neither should be there.

YMMV

Thompsoncustom
May 31, 2011, 04:34 PM
Both the weak CZ springs and the hammer camming are good points. I had to replace the extractor spring on my CZ right out of the box pretty much and I wasn't really happy with the trigger either. Tho after 1000rd or 1000 dry fires the trigger fells much better then when you get it that doesn't help the camming any, the only way to remove it I have found it to recut the angle on the sear and thou I don't think its that bad to do its probably not for everyone. A lot of people buy the comp hammers and that is suppose to help the trigger a lot. There is also a guy now making DA reduction kits, I believe he has two different ones that pull the DA reach back close to the grip for those with smaller hands. All that being said I wouldn't trade my CZ 75b for any other gun around 500 bucks I think it is an amazing firearm.

KodiakBeer
May 31, 2011, 04:43 PM
I'm sure the BHP is the most frequently copied 9mm. There is the FEG, FM, Inglis, Arcus and Kareen to name just a few copies that come to mind. The BHP (and copies) have armed over 70 military forces around the world, along with countless police agencies. The Germans thought so highly of the Hi Power that production was relegated to the SS and paratroopers (Falschirmjager) who got the best arms.

I also like the CZ and have owned them, but it's not as good a shooter as the Hi Power. They now make a Single action CZ 75. If I was going to buy a CZ I'd get the SA version just because of the superior trigger.

wow6599
May 31, 2011, 04:47 PM
One more vote for a BHP. I had to get mine out of the safe and baby it after watching hickok45's video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7qV-hPe6s

`

Thompsoncustom
May 31, 2011, 05:17 PM
Made by CZ in various versions and modifications, CZ-75 was also widely copied and cloned. Most popular of CZ-75 copies are (or were) made by: IMI (Jericho-941, Israel), Tanfoglio (TZ-75, TZ-90, T-95, Italy), Sarsilmaz (M2000, Turkey), ITM (AT-88, Swiss), Sphinx (mod.2000, Swiss), Norinco (NZ-75, China), Springfield (P9, USA).

CZ-75 is now in service with Czech police (in the form of compact CZ-75 P-01). It is also used by Turkish police.

There are a few of the popular copies.

metalman8600
May 31, 2011, 05:18 PM
The Beretta 92 is a lot more suppressor friendly. And I think it looks way better than the CZ or BHP.

Apocalypse-Now
May 31, 2011, 07:25 PM
Negatives on 75b:

Trigger camming. Every single CZ I have ever shot has it to some degree. Some are worse than others. This is due to its overly complicatd trigger design. It can be fixed by guys like Hobell but it is not a task most people can complete on their own.

never heard of this issue on CZ's, but i don't frequent the CZ forum. mine are older too, had them for almost 20 years.

The pistol has a long DA reach. It is not good for those with smaller hands. The trigger reach in the DA pull IMHO is longer than it needs to be in relation ot the grip.

this is easily solved by carrying cocked and locked.

The gun is overly complex when compared to others like a BHP, 1911 or even a Sig. IIRC there are a total of 44 parts in a CZ 75B.

overly complex? no. they were the most widely used LE/military pistols in the world because they are reliable and durable. glock is now number one.

IIRC the barrels are not chrome lined.

how many pistols come with chrome lined barrels? few, because it's not necessary and drives up the price needlessly.

Springs are weak. Recoil spring and trigger return spring are known weakness. This is easily correctable using better quality springs like Wolf. It has been acknowledge many times by CZ that some of the recoil springs rated at

never had a spring issue. my CZ75 went 10,000+ rounds before a recoil spring change was needed.

CZ customer service is avg at best. Even with their US presence they are not always helpful. I have interacted with them on two occasions and they would grade out a C in my book.

they sent me mag springs for free for a routine change (had no issues). nice folks (if you're nice to them ;)

.........:D

JROC
May 31, 2011, 07:30 PM
Buy a used surplus CZ 75 Pre-B. They are old Czech police guns. I bought mine for $329 shipped. Very nice gun. Works great. I've had mine for a week. It's got a little surface wear, but I will be modding it, and getting it refinished.
http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=700|1012|1026

http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?ltid-all=1&t=&as=365&mn=0&mx=0&ffl=&ca=&co=&f=&sort=&numberperpage=50&cid=150&lid=87270&dn=Robertson%20Trading%20Post&ns=0&zipcode=&distance=0&limittostate=&

http://i56.tinypic.com/2vxkcj6.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2usg9bn.jpg

My Pre-B was actually a later model built during the transition years between the Pre-B's, and B's, and it's basically a B model without the firing pin block, and uses the Pre-B safety, and slide stop. What that means is I can use the B model magazines, and sights which is a huge plus IMO.

rellascout
May 31, 2011, 07:36 PM
My Pre-B was actually a later model built during the transition years between the Pre-B's, and B's, and it's basically a B model without the firing pin block, and uses the Pre-B safety, and slide stop. What that means is I can use the B model magazines, and sights which is a huge plus IMO.

Did you buy that hammer from Hobdell?

http://czcustom.com/images/products/detail/sadahammer.jpg

wrs840
May 31, 2011, 07:41 PM
I like a BHP for a range gun and it's a classic everyone should own, IMO. I think it's one of the most natural feeling pointers ever made, and my wife loves it too. I own one.

I think a Beretta 92 is also a fine shooting classic. I own one.

I really like alloy-frame 3rd gen Smiths for carry. So does my wife. Between us we own seven, four in 9mm and three 40s. They're reliable as the day is long, and fine-condition examples turn up for cheap if you shop with patience. I also like a decocker-safety for carry (I realize some don't), and their size is very concealed-carry friendly for me in a Crossbreed Supertuck.

JROC
May 31, 2011, 07:47 PM
Yes good eye rellascout, and the grips are the CZ rubber grips and not factory either.(they look just like the factory plastic ones almost though) Still it's new enough that it didn't come with the spur hammer just the pictures I took when it was all factory didn't come out very well.

Here is one before any mods were done.:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2e16hqu.jpg


I also have a 13lb mainspring, 16lb recoil spring, and an extended firing pin for it.

highlander 5
May 31, 2011, 07:57 PM
Of the 4 9 mm pistols I have the Cz75b is the most accurate followed by the Beretta 92,Sig 225 and the most recent a Ruger p89 that I haven't had much time to play with.

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