Wonderful "Crude" Guns


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InkEd
May 31, 2011, 07:22 PM
We all love our well-refined and precision made firearms. It is easy to see the beauty of those guns. However, we hardly ever talk about our favorite "crude" firearms. Those cheaply made (often with simple stamping), loose tolerance, hard on the eyes but yet still wonderfully effective guns that just have their own appeal. This thread is dedicated to the discussion of those ugly beauties.

Let's chat, post pics, share stories, et cetera about wonderful (in their own way) guns like MACs, Grease Guns, Stens, Liberators, MAT-49 and other similar weapons that look like they were made in a highschool metal shop.

(If it's more refined than the average AK then it doesn't belong on this thread.)

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Hoth206
May 31, 2011, 07:39 PM
Not really along the lines of a grease gun, but I'm convinced that about 75% of the shooting that went on in this country before 1965 or so was done with pretty crude no-name brand single barrel shotguns.

I've got a 16 ga. sbl. that came from some distant relation (don't remember who...my dad may know) that doesn't have a name on it. It's loose and worn out, but it's still cool looking hanging on the wall. My guess is that it was probably the "family gun" for a couple of generations of ancestors, and I doubt they were the only folks who had one gun for everything.

They're pretty crude, but you can still buy a new one for around a hundred bucks, made in the USA, and they'll kill stuff just as dead as they have for around 200 years. Crude, but simple and effective.

pikid89
May 31, 2011, 07:43 PM
^ I killed my very first deer with slug out of my grandmas store brand .410
that gun started my addiction with all things guns lol

Frozen North
May 31, 2011, 07:43 PM
We can't forget the Mosin Nagant! You don't get much more crude and ugly than that!

I own several. They are soopah fun!

ridgerunner1965
May 31, 2011, 07:58 PM
my first rifle other than a 22 was a 45 kentucky kit built by a 12 yr old boy.me.sears kit with some type of cheap spanish barrel.it was really crude looking.it functioned fine and was very accurate tho.i spent many a day roaming the woods with it shooting small game.ive had and still have some sks rifles that were pretty crude looking but ran like a swiss watch and would hit a brick every time at 100 yrds.

Equestrian
May 31, 2011, 08:01 PM
the best are the ones with stories like the liberator that's what immediately came to me the grease guns are real neat too. wouldn't include the mosin though, i have two and there both pretty nice especially the one with my brand new finish job.

talldragon
May 31, 2011, 08:19 PM
I like this one. Simple, yet effective. http://www.directcon.net/gmc248/m3GreaseGun.jpg

InkEd
May 31, 2011, 10:24 PM
I like the metal box o' death that is a MAC. Folded sheet metal and a heavy spring is all you need spray a ton of ammo quickly.

AlexanderA
May 31, 2011, 10:31 PM
The Greasegun may look crude, but the process of making it was the result of sophisticated industrial design. Unlike the Sten, you can't make a Greasegun in a home workshop.

GRIZ22
May 31, 2011, 10:35 PM
Not really along the lines of a grease gun, but I'm convinced that about 75% of the shooting that went on in this country before 1965 or so was done with pretty crude no-name brand single barrel shotguns.


Most people think of the Colt SAA or Henry or Winchester as the gun that won the West but it was actually the single barrel shotgun. Most settlers couldn't afford Colts and such, the single barrel was cheap, easy to hit with, and could be used for any purpose.

InkEd
May 31, 2011, 10:46 PM
The beauty IS the simplicity. Shotguns and "Bullet Hoses" use the "accuracy by volume" method to achieve their goal. Simple BUT effective.

Doubting Thomas
May 31, 2011, 11:34 PM
I like my 1962 vintage Sheridan Nocabout .22 single shot pistol. I believe they were $17.95 or so at the time. It looks like a junior sized electric drill, same trigger pull, and very fixed sights. It's a fun little plinker and surprisingly accurate once you get the hang of it.

It makes a pretty good little trainer; small, simple, and if you do your part it'll do.

Balrog
June 1, 2011, 01:36 AM
Most people think of the Colt SAA or Henry or Winchester as the gun that won the West but it was actually the single barrel shotgun. Most settlers couldn't afford Colts and such, the single barrel was cheap, easy to hit with, and could be used for any purpose.

Do you have a reference that would indicate that?

RevolvingGarbage
June 1, 2011, 04:04 AM
Crude isn't exactly what I would call it, but I think it fits the spirit of the thread.

My RG-40.

http://i53.tinypic.com/29wjzt0.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/34imv6o.jpg

Despite being a $30 cast-zinc framed revolver, it has stood up to over 1000 rounds of mixed .38spl and +P, and I have even recently successfully fired off 10 rounds underwater.

HorseSoldier
June 1, 2011, 04:45 AM
Glocks. (;))

Sterling SMGs. All the examples I've ever seen and used had the same oily light surface rust you see on old car parts, and there's that perceptible lag between trigger pull and the bolt going forward. One of the Sterlings we had in our arms room shot about a foot to the left at seven meters, and god only knows where it went at much further range. Would definitely win you a gun fight in a phone booth, though.

Kiln
June 1, 2011, 06:16 AM
Cobray single shot .410 derringer. I have heard that the double barrel versions are junk but these are extremely simple and all steel derringers. They kick like a beast, having the most uncomfortable recoil I've ever experienced but are effective and I'm sure would make great snake guns.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab47/Myguns223/NewPicsMay152011047.jpg

I've also got two RG 23 revolvers that have done fine so far and even have decent accuracy especially the one with the long barrel. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though and to me they don't look half bad.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 1, 2011, 06:21 AM
My WWII Arisaka 7.7 JAP is apparently one of the ones made about a year or so before the war ended. It is pretty crude in the machining, however, it shoots my handloads extremely well, in fact the fixed sights on it are exactly zeroed in at 100 yards! With the Hornady Spire bullets, I can shoot grapefruit-size rocks at 100 yards with ease!

I didn't even work up the load, I just looked at a bunch of different loads and went middle of the road with the Hornady #3120 .312" Spire Soft Point Bullets over IMR 4350 Powder. I took the gun to the range when no one was there, loaded it, tied a string to the trigger and stood back behind a post and pulled the string. The gun fired, the bullet hitting the berm behind where the targets go. I tried that five times then felt comfortable shooting it myself after that. That is when I realized this thing is right on at 100 yards!

The only negative thing is the oddball safety where one has to press the back of the bolt where there is a steel knob and press about 20 pounds pressure while turning that 'knob'. It makes for extremely loud metallic noise if one is trying to be quiet hunting deer. The trigger is rather hard to pull, so sometimes, if I hunt with it, I will not close the bolt handle until I am ready to sit and wait for my deer to come along, lowering the bolt handle so it is ready to fire.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 1, 2011, 06:23 AM
Originally Posted by Kiln
Cobray single shot .410 derringer......They kick like a beast, having the most uncomfortable recoil I've ever experienced but are effective and I'm sure would make great snake guns.......Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though and to me they don't look half bad.

I really like the looks of that .410 Derringer.
It is totally Functional to the point where it is actually beautiful!

Kiln
June 1, 2011, 07:40 AM
I really like the looks of that .410 Derringer.
It is totally Functional to the point where it is actually beautiful!
Yeah I love the simplicity and so far the gun has been great, though I've only got about 35 rounds through it so far it has had only three failures that were due to cheap Remington ammo, there were always deep indentations on the primers and the rounds failed to fire after several strikes...the rounds were just no good.

Keep in mind that while I've always heard good things about the single shots I've heard that the double barrels often have problems with light strikes and firing pin problems due to the fact that you have to manually switch the firing pin between each barrel prior to firing, if you don't have them lined up perfectly the gun is unlikely to work properly. What would be a neat little pistol was bad due to a less than stellar design. With the single barrel this isn't an issue.

Best part is that these guns are super cheap and even cost less than the cheap zinc derringers that Cobra makes. Not badmouthing the Cobra guns but if you can get something thats all steel for a lower price the decision is simple for me.

Ole Coot
June 1, 2011, 09:33 AM
My first was an H&R 20ga single shot Topper, still have it and most people I knew when I was a kid had a single shot shotgun used for everything.

InkEd
June 1, 2011, 10:17 AM
While indeed not a handsome weapon, Glock pistols are not crude. The manufacturing process is quite high tech. You have to have high quality molding equipment for plastic, precision maching tools to produce alot of the small parts and assemble them to relatively tight tolerances. A military issue WWII era 1911 requires less "high tech" equipment to manufacture and has looser specifications. (DISCLAIMER: That does NOT make it a "better weapon.) Both are fine guns and you would be hard pressed to find a sensible person that thinks the 1911 is a "crudely" made firearm. Glocks. Ugly? Yes. Crude? No.

Kudos, to the member that mentioned the "last ditch" production runs
of WWII Japanese weapons. I have seen a few comparisions of the early and late production rifles. Very big difference in quality. SAME design. DIFFERENT quality. IMHO the Japanese had a BIG problem with accepting new weapons. (Except for machine guns which they had several designs.) Their rifles were a pretty old design even before the start of WWII. They possibly could have been better served by issuing a cheap SMG or auto rifle than by trying to continue making the Arisaka rifle. As the descedant of a Pacific Theater veteran, I am VERY glad they didn't though.

Anyway, I just thought of another one. How about the Australian Owen SMG? Any of you guys ever gotten to see/handle one? I have only seen them in pictures but the look like a tube with a magazine coming out of the top. Yet, they seem well liked by their users.

InkEd
June 1, 2011, 10:36 AM
I am surprised we haven't seen more communist guns mentioned. I would think they had to have some pretty rough small arms.

keyboard commando
June 1, 2011, 10:44 AM
Italian Carcano should get an honorable mention.:scrutiny:

Mp7
June 1, 2011, 10:48 AM
French weapons ... while not compeltely crude, at least built drop-resistant.

Kiln
June 1, 2011, 10:49 AM
I am surprised we haven't seen more communist guns mentioned. I would think they had to have some pretty rough small arms.
Probably because there are too many to mention. ;)

Lots of old commie weapons are extremely durable and tough but not too easy on the eyes. Doesn't bother alot of people though, myself included. Functionality beats beauty any day as far as I'm concerned...about firearms that is.

RimfireChris
June 1, 2011, 11:15 AM
I had a Norinco Tokarev clone in 9mm that would fit the bill. I don't know if they were all like this but mine looked like it was run over by a lawnmower. Between that and the horrible safety I finally sold it. It worked good though, never jammed and was pretty accurate considering the tiny sights. I just got tireed of having a carry gun I couldn't carry with a round chambered.

Heretic
June 1, 2011, 01:20 PM
I had an RG10, so I can vouch for crude. It was .22 short, but I figured out that if I clipped the nose off a long rifle, it would just barely allow the cylinder to turn. Stopped doing it when a second chamber fired along with the one aligned with the barrel.

Millwright
June 1, 2011, 08:07 PM
Can't say I'd agree with the "crude" premise in regard to the Carcano. OTOH, "ugly" is another thing. Don't forget this arm was issued in both rifle and carbine versions.

I've shot them and they shot where aimed. The trigger was purely military functional as were the bolt fit and action but all functioned without problem. >MW

dovedescending
June 1, 2011, 10:19 PM
:D I like the PPsh41, and the MP-38/40.

Actually I just like submachine guns in general.

InkEd
June 2, 2011, 09:47 AM
Yes! The MP38 and latter variants! Not the luxury and sophistication you expect from German engineering BUT innovative and utilitarian. IMHO they were STILL looked nicer than a Grease Gun and definitely more handsome than a Sten Gun.

InkEd
June 2, 2011, 10:01 AM
Also, we just simply CANNOT talk about these guns without mentioning some of their ergonomic solutions/improvements.

"These MACs shoot at a high ROF. It makes the muzzle climb up alot."
"Here attach this little strap under the barrel and pull down, ya' crybaby."

"The Sten guns get very hot and you can't hold the front end."
"Hold it by the magazine, you bloody puff."

"I can't pull the trigger on my Nagant Revolver."
"WEAK Capitalist Pig!" (Followed by strike to head.)

"The welds on my MAT-49 are rough and cutting my hand."
"Do not worry. We surrender at dawn." (Just Kidding!)

SDC
June 2, 2011, 06:29 PM
You can't get much more crude than the Richardson "Guerrilla Gun", a post-war shotgun designed along the lines of Phillipine "paltik" guns; these are simply "slam-guns", where you drop a cartridge in the removable barrel, pull the barrel sharply back against a fixed firing-pin, and the shot and wad leaves the barrel before the pressure can blow the two halves of the gun apart.

Ole Coot
June 2, 2011, 10:19 PM
The crudest was one I made at 12 yrs of age. I bent a galvanized pipe into a pistol shape, filed a notch in it back by the bend, dropped an M-80 down the pipe, fished the fuse out with a bent wire, wrapped a steel bearing in paper and rammed it down the pipe. I lit the fuse, pointed it at a friend about 50' away, kicked like crazy, missed him by a mile and had the bearing bury 2" in a poplar tree. My first and only attempt where no blood was spilled.

memphisjim
June 2, 2011, 10:24 PM
that derringer is cool
makes me think of that "kill stick" they made on sons of guns

InkEd
June 3, 2011, 10:15 AM
Good thing you didn't actually hit your friend!

Zip guns and homemade cannons aside, what else are some of your favorite crude guns?

The Liberator is about as crude as they come for a "production" modern firearm. I couldn't imagine using one even for it's intended use, unless I was within arms reach of an enemy and they were all alone.

trailgator
June 3, 2011, 11:10 AM
When I saw this thread title, I thought it was going to be another "Sons of Guns" bashing thread. :evil:

kingcheese
June 3, 2011, 11:34 AM
figured id mention the crudest of the crude, the cigerette gun

basically it was a piece of metal pipe, wired down to a stock made of a split 2x4, with a hole drilled near the back of the pipe

drop in loose powder, paper for a wad, and what ever objects you had on hand for a projectile, take a match and put it to the touch hole, or a lit cigarette(hence the name)

they where homemade, but, it had to be mentioned

also, the welrod pistol was mostly stamped metal, and it looks simple enough to make

KevininPa
June 4, 2011, 12:49 AM
.........H&R and NEF .22 revolvers were considered crude compared to their S&W and Colt counterparts. But now they're sought after due to their all steel, rugged construction. Auction site prices reflect this. I have a NEF R92 that is a literal tack driver and a H&R Sportsman that isn't quite as good but close. The 999 may not be as good as the other but the "Wow! that's cool!" factor in the kid's eyes when you break it open and fling the spent shells is....well......priceless! ( Aw, c'mon, you knew where this was goin'!;))

doc2rn
June 4, 2011, 02:11 AM
I once mated a .22lr barrel I found at a junk yard to a wooden grip off of an old wood working tool for a lathe. Added a sling shot top with a radiator clamp and rivets to the leather pouch. I used it for most of a summer when I was 8 until dad caught me shootin rats in the barn with it.

ColtPythonElite
June 4, 2011, 03:03 AM
My first was an H&R 20ga single shot Topper, still have it and most people I knew when I was a kid had a single shot shotgun used for everything.


Same here except in 16 gauge. I got it on my 12th birthday. Brand new it was 40 bucks. It was my only hunting weapon until I was 20 years old or so....I still take it out and bust clays with it every now and then.

Vaarok
June 4, 2011, 08:19 AM
Nobody likes the Owen?

InkEd
June 4, 2011, 08:41 AM
I think the Owen is kinda cool lookin.' I mentioned it in one of the very early posts. Unfortunately, I have only seen them in pictures. Top feed guns like the Owen, Bren and early Lewis guns have always been interesting to me.

45Broomhandle
June 5, 2011, 03:31 AM
Not just "Crude" but VERY UGLY. Old Chinese single-shot copy of 96 Mauser broomhandle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/mauser/UGLYGUNSCHINESEC-96SINGLESHOT.jpg

Best regards ~ ~ ~ 45Broomhandle

InkEd
June 5, 2011, 09:23 AM
Yikes! (I think that's more of an "attempt to" copy.)

You may be better protected with a regular broom handle (as in the wooden stick) than that hideous thing.

InkEd
June 5, 2011, 09:25 AM
Wow, I just noticed you mentioned it is a SINGLE shot model.

7.62 Nato
June 5, 2011, 10:20 AM
How about the Southern (Tenn) made copy of the Thompson called the Volunteer Commando, and the Western (AZ) made version called the Apache ?

yhtomit
June 5, 2011, 11:49 AM
Sten guns spring to mind here -- ugly, but not ugly as an engineering project.

Just had to google the Volunteer Commando -- makes me glad I don't have one ;)

timothy

InkEd
June 5, 2011, 08:05 PM
I googled it as well. Horrible insult to the Thompson SMG.

Mp7
June 14, 2011, 10:27 AM
http://englishrussia.com/2007/06/04/chechen-self-made-weapons/

Letīs not forget the Chechen ... factory line :)

SleazyRider
June 14, 2011, 10:52 AM
I'm thinkin' the Spanish Ruby (a simplified copy of the 1903 Browning) fits the definition of crude. Dozens of companies in the Basque region of Spain were manufacturing these During WW1, and even though the specifications were the same, the parts weren't even interchangeable between manufacturers. Some of these pistols fired when the safety was moved from safe to fire, and some went fully automatic. The sample below has a rivet installed in the slide to prevent the safety from disengaging during holstering. I made a new firing pin on the lathe, and a slide disconnector pawl from a discarded circular saw blade. It runs like a champ, but it will never achieve CCW status!

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq315/Magnageek/RubyPistolet016.jpg

Mp7
June 14, 2011, 11:01 AM
NAMBU comes to mind.

Looks like the inventor didnīt even want to make
a pistol. Dunno if anyone was ever successfully shot with it ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Nambu_Type_14_1551.jpg/300px-Nambu_Type_14_1551.jpg

ATBackPackin
June 14, 2011, 11:33 AM
For me it would have to be the FEG PA-63. Straight out of the box it is very crudely milled and has a trigger pull that Arnold himself would find heavy. However with a lot of love and some new springs they can be made into a nice little shooter.

Shawn

Heretic
June 15, 2011, 01:27 PM
I was going to post a link, but turns out there are too many. Just go to youtube and search "homemade shotgun". The Nambu looks like a Cadillac after these.



Oh, also the NVA made knockoffs of the 1911 out of sheet metal (frames and slides) Seen pics but don't have any to post.

SleazyRider
June 15, 2011, 02:36 PM
I was going to post a link, but turns out there are too many. Just go to youtube and search "homemade shotgun". The Nambu looks like a Cadillac after these.



Oh, also the NVA made knockoffs of the 1911 out of sheet metal (frames and slides) Seen pics but don't have any to post.
Wow, I just took your advice and checked out homemade shotguns on YouTube! Scary what some of these folks are producing! Not to digress, but it occurred to me that no matter how many gun laws are passed, one can easily make a functional 12-gauge shotgun with a quick visit to Home Despot.

KevininPa
June 16, 2011, 11:36 PM
..........turn out pretty nice. My buddy had one. Horrible in the factory configuration, but like you said, some new springs and they turn into nice little shooters. I bought him some Marschal Grips when they were still inexpensive for his birthday and since his frame was black instead of the usual silver it even looked pretty good. I should have purchased it when he was selling but I had my eye on something else then.

olafhardtB
June 17, 2011, 03:21 PM
Im not sure it qualifies, but what about the Stevens 325?I like mine.

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