Differences I noticed Between Gen4 G19 and Gen2 G19


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SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 02:43 AM
I know this is probably going to ignite a flame war with the fan boys, but I'm starting to hate my G19 and lose confidence/trust in Glock. I have a Glock 21SF that I love, so I bought the G19 Gen4 a while back (with the intent of it being my everyday carry gun to replace my Kahr P45) when they were still being made with the "03" springs. At the time I bought it they were still fairly new and I wasn't able to find anyone saying bad thing about them. I figured hey a Glock is a Glock, it's a 19 they're the standard for a compact 9mm. After debating with myself for a month between a proven Gen 3 and the new Gen 4. After handling them a half dozen times I decided on the Gen 4. It pointed naturally and had the bigger mag release, my only gripes with the Gen 3. Despite the G21SF's full size, I have no problems holding it and for some reason it also points naturally, despite the larger grip circumference. For whatever reason the Gen 3 19's point high for me. The honeymoon ended when I took it for "break in".

There are some manufacturers and theories that say you need to fire a minimum of 500 rds through a carry gun to break it in and make sure it's reliable with your chosen ammo. That, and it's just good practice. While I agree it's good for piece of mind to know your pistol will function, and I do the 500 rd "break in", it's never really been necessary. I have/have had: a USP 40 Compact with ~700rds through it, Sig P229R 9mm w/~800rds, Kahr P45 w/~1100rds, Springfield Mil Spec 1911 .45 w/~700 rds, Colt XSE 1911 .45 w/~600rds, and the Glock 21SF 45 w/~700rds. None have ever had any issues with varieties of ammunition through them using factory magazines. The Sig had 2 failures to eject one day with some cheapo magazines but never anything with the Sig magazines. The ammo was been WWB, Remington UMC FMJ & HP, Blazer, Hornady TAP, Hornady XTP, Magtech, Federal, Georgia Arms, Reloads, never any issues.

Then came the G19. The only ammo that has been fired through it is Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ. Stove piped halfway through it's second magazine. 3 malfunctions in its first 100rds. The slide releases when I slap a magazine in. I thought maybe I was touching the slide release. Nope. It doesn't do it every time, but it does it most of the time.

Since the first 100 rds I haven't had any more failures, but I still don't trust it. Between the first 100 rounds and the next 338 I locked the slide back for 2 weeks and put it back in the safe. The fact that it HAS failed make it the least reliable defensive pistol I have ever owned. It also has extremely sloppy ejection. Some cases barely make it out of the slide. Some fly forward, some hit me in the face, some go over my left shoulder (I'm right handed), others just kind of fall out the side of the gun. The cases are also being damaged at some point during cycling. Triangle shaped areas are being ground off on the front of the case and the grinds are running in the direction of the circumference of the case neck so I think it must be happening as the case is being ejected. If it was occurring in the chamber I would expect the scratches to run top to bottom not side to side, the case would have to be sideways for this to happen. At first I thought it was damage from the case hitting the ground, but it's on every case and always in the same place. As of yesterday the pistol has 438rds through it, all WWB.

I've called Glock 5 times about this. The first time I called was May 9, 2011. I had a very curt conversation and the man I talked to in Technical Services seemed aware of some problems with the Gen4 Glock 19 and said they'd send me an "04" spring right out. It is my understanding the current manufacture pistol use this spring form the factory. He also said the pistol was designed as a combat firearm and wasn't meant to fire "target" ammo. I don't know about that excuse. Sounds like the "official line" but I don't buy it. No other gun I've ever owned has had a problem with "target" ammo, to include my other Glock. I believe all factory ammo has to be made to SAAMI specifications, so I would think any commercially built firearm should be capable of firing any commercially made ammunition of the appropriate caliber.

I called them again May 23, 2011 (at 10:12PST/1:12 EST their time)trying to see if they had shipped the spring yet, then things started getting interesting. I sat on hold for 9 minutes, then just figured they were busy or at lunch so hung up and figured I'd call back. I called them again on the 23rd at 10:57PST (1:57ESt their time) and sat on hold for 25 minutes until I was hung up on or disconnected from their end. I called them 2 more times on May 25, 2011 @ 12:43PST (3:43EST their time) and 1:19PST (4:19EST their time) and was hung up on or disconnected again after 30 minutes each time. I have no idea where the spring is, or if they've ever sent it, and I can't get a hold of anybody there. So not only do I have 0 confidence in what would have been my everyday carry gun, I have 0 confidence that Glock is going to make this right.

I'll try to attach some pictures of differences between the Gen 2 G19 a friend of mine has compared to the Gen4 G19 I bought. I think the problems run deeper than just the recoil spring setup they changed. Sorry for the long post.

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Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 02:59 AM
the "0-4-1" spring is the latest one for the g19 gen4. first was the 03, then 04, now 0-4-1.

also, you very well could have a bad extractor. i changed two out of spec ones in my gen3 and gen4 glocks. they no longer machine them, and they're are now either cast or MIM (i think they're cast). i had crazy erratic ejection, and failure to ejects that instantly were resolved with new extractors.

many gen4's problems have been resolved by switching out the extractor.

don't expect sterling service from glock. love their guns, but not so much their CS lol

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 03:36 AM
In picture #1 the top frame is the Gen 2, the bottom the Gen 4. Number 1 and 2 are the differences in the frame where the new recoil assembly sits. There is considerably less material and the front cup like portion has been removed to make room for the larger recoil spring assembly hole in the bottom of the slide under the barrel bushing. Numbers 3 and 4 are the differences in the take down spring and some sort of frame reinforcing ring. That may still be in the new ones, it just may not be exposed. 5 and 6 are the difference in the locking block. In the previous generations it was set into the pistol surrounded by polymer, now it is larger and more exposed, running all the way to the frame rails. 7 and 8 show the dimple they press into the new trigger bars. It is supposed to center the trigger bar on the firing pin safety. The older one had a tendency to run around the edges of the disconnect, these run across the center. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The news ones always make the trigger pull about 6.5 lbs instead of 5.5lbs. 9 and 10 show the rear frame rails, the old ones were much larger. 11 and 12 show the striker release, the old ones were bent and ramped upwards, the new ones go up a bit too, but no nearly as much. 13 and 14 show a hole next to the trigger mechanism housing, I have no idea what it's for.

In picture #2, 1 and 2 show the difference between the ramping on the slide, the Gen 2 is on the left and it’s flatter than the Gen 4. 3 and 4 show the different profiles between the barrel lugs, the new one is more tapered. 4 and 6 show the difference between the recoil spring “cup”. The Gen4 on the right doesn’t even look like a clean cut. It’s chamfered, I don’t know how the hell the spring is supposed to stay in there.

In picture #3, the Gen 2 is on top, the gen4 on bottom. A and B show the difference in the cutouts at the front of the slide, I don’t know why it’s been changed. I also have no idea if or how it might affect function. I don’t see how it could. C and D show the different recoil spring assemblies. The new one I guess is causing all kinds of problem for some people. Others have no problems. It is a big enough problem Glock redesigned the spring though and they are now installing the 04 spring from the factory instead of the 03 spring they started with. Ignore E and F, looking at the picture I thought the Gen4 wasn’t cut out like the Gen2, but it is. G and H are different profiles on the front of the barrel lug, the newer ones have more material removed making the angles wider, again I don’t know how or if this does anything. I and J there are different angle cut above the lug Gen 2 on top has basically a 90 degree cut immediately above, the Gen4 has a beveled cut, again, don’t know what this might do. K and L show the difference between the ramping on the slide, it will be more apparent in one of the other pictures. This is what strips the next round from the magazine and forces it up the feed ramp.

In picture #4, Gen2 is in the front, Gen4 in the back. 1 and 2 are the difference between the rear frame rails. 3 and 4 are the difference between the trigger bars. The new one adds about a lb to the trigger pull. It also makes reassembly more difficult. 5 and 6 are the difference in the locking blocks. The metal is exposed in the Gen4. 7 and 8 are the differences in the trigger pins, and with the Gen 4 locking block pin.

In picture #5, the Gen2 is on top, Gen4 on bottom. A and B are the differences between the barrel lug profiles. The older ones were more squared off and very angular. The newer ones have beveled edges and they seem more rounded. 1 and 2 show some extra rail on the new one, 3 and 4 between the circles show a difference in the top part of the lug cut, the new ones have a dome shaped cut instead of a flat cut.

In picture #6 it shows the difference between Gen 2 on top and Gen 4 on bottom. They beveled the front of the chamber on the new ones. If it aint broke, don’t fix it.

Picture #7 shows what is being done to all the brass. I can only assume this is happening during ejection. As the case is being pulled from the chamber it must be rubbing across something before or immediately following ejection. All of the grinds run in the direction of the case diameter though. I have no idea what’s doing this.

Pictures #8, 9, and 10 show calls to Glock to get this sorted out. Only the 2 minute call from May 9 (pic #8) was successful at reaching someone. The others were follow ups where I was hung up on or disconnected after various amounts of time. I had full signal so it wasn’t a dropped call.

Picture #11 shows the differences between Gen2 top and Gen4 bottom. A and B are small projections on the top of the trigger bar, the one is longer but I don’t think it does anything. C and D are the ejectors. They have the same part number but the old one seems to have a sharper angled bend in it, but it may just appear they way. E and F show a difference in the trigger mechanism housing. The new one has a rail cut in it.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 03:40 AM
Apocalypse Now,

Thanks for the quick reply. Any idea what's going on with them parts wise? I figured the part would of been out in a week or two. That was 3 weeks ago. Granted it hasn't been forever, but still. It's not much of a carry gun sitting in the safe and not working. Kind of a bummer. If it was anything but shooting I'd say it's a waste of money to have to do "break in" all over again with a "new" spring. Still expensive though.

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 03:42 AM
After having some of these problems I started doing some research and I'd heard some of the extractors are too long. I don't know what's going on with the damaged brass though. Hitting and dragging along the ejection port as the round impacts the ejector and turns out to be ejected but before the extractor releases it maybe? I don't know.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 03:46 AM
^^yeah a lot of folks are still waiting for them, and others get them immediately.

this has been my experience with getting parts from glock: they either send the wrong ones, take forever to send the right ones, or never send them at all. lol they're notorious for that.

also, the updated springs are in short supply, since everyone's calling for them.

i would call them back and order the latest 0-4-1 spring. should be no break in with that one, i've actually not read of any issues whatsoever with it. :)

if that doesn't solve all your issues, i would bet the farm it's a bad extractor, which is no more than $13 :)



also, my gen4 23 smacks the brass pretty good and have brass marks on the outside of my ejection port. i asked glock techs about it who said it happens. also researched it. some glocks do it, some don't, no big deal.

REAPER4206969
June 1, 2011, 03:58 AM
Another satisfied customer.

also, you very well could have a bad extractor. i changed two out of spec ones in my gen3 and gen4 glocks. they no longer machine them, and they're are now either cast or MIM (i think they're cast).

Word on the 'net is that the locking block, extractor and firing pin are now MIM.

The locking block certainly is; look at the straight mold lines and obvious sprue mark on the bridge. They were previously investment cast.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af355/Lloyd-XmasPics/IMG_0371.jpg

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=13&t=111756

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 03:59 AM
^ Great... I just put up a video of the slide releasing without me touching it. I don’t know that Glock designed them to do this, but I guess it’s possible. I’ve never had it happen on anything else though. I usually go with the ole slingshot method. I don’t use the slide release. Now apparently I don’t need to do anything. I would prefer it not do that. I want to be certain the magazine is fully and completely seated before releasing the slide, so I know a round is being chambered. The one time this will do that and not pull off a round will be the one time I need it to.

I suppose I could learn to not so vigorously reload a magazine, but old habits die hard, and I like to know they're seated.

I'm sure I could go get the parts and fix it but I'm hesitant to have anything but factory work done for liability reasons and I don't think I should have to pay to fix something that should of worked in the first place. On the other hand I don't want to wait for Glock and how would anyone really know the difference between a Glock extractor installed by Glock and a Glock extractor installed by me.

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 04:09 AM
Reaper,

How'd you know MIM was my nemesis? The whole reason I got a Colt for my first 1911 is because it had as few MIM parts as I could find in a production gun. I hate when companies cut corners to save a couple bucks. It's not like they didn't already have the means to machine the old ones. What's the point? You have the capability to make the part already, how much is really saved by setting up some whole new process and getting more equipment, or purchasing from outside vendors to get a part that is less robust and reliable than the old one. If they were just starting the company or just making the new part I could see maybe doing that, but it's the same part made in a different less reliable way. I called Kimber's Custom shop to see if they made anything without MIM parts, he said not to worry about it, if a MIm part was going to break it would break rights away. I hung up and never called or looked at a Kimber again.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 04:17 AM
Word on the 'net is that the locking block, extractor and firing pin are now MIM.

The locking block certainly is; look at the straight mold lines and obvious sprue mark on the bridge. They were previously investment cast.


yep, the locking block is now obviously MIM, but was cast previously.

my extractors though, they have no sprue marks, just "casting lines".


the strikers on mine don't look MIM either, but glock has been changing parts quite a lot recently, so i wouldn't be surprised if folks found MIM strikers in their recent purchases.

REAPER4206969
June 1, 2011, 04:17 AM
Well, a properly done MIM part is fine and an improper one will fail quickly. However investment casting is superior, IMO.

REAPER4206969
June 1, 2011, 04:20 AM
Also, the GEN1/2 Glock's had machined frame rails, later models having stamped. The bevel on the barrel hood was added to the 9mm models in the mid 90's.

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 04:26 AM
I suspect a well done MIM part probably cost as much as a machined or investment cast part. All the extra steps and QC taken to ensure there would be no voids or gas pockets can't be cheap. They may get better, but I always envision a Matchbox car when I hear MIM. That cheap powdery metal that cracks under pressure. In a gun? No thanks. I've become a curmudgeony old man in my young age, longing for years and techniques gone by. I'd rather pay the extra for have something that lasts forever than save a couple bucks up front and have to buy a new item in a few years, it's cheaper in the long run to get it done right the first time.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 04:30 AM
^^opposite. MIM is much cheaper than machined, and a little cheaper than cast :)

there's no way to tell if an MIM part is bad until it actually breaks, but defective ones fail early on.

glock would never change parts manufacturing processes to a more expensive one lol

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 04:33 AM
I should probably go to bed. After every post I make, I read it and find some terrible typo or grammatical error. Sleeping 6 hours a night for the last few days seems to be catching up with me. We'll see what happens when and if I can ever get a hold of someone at Glock. If I can't get this thing running like a Glock should I may see about having them replace it with a Gen 3 or something, but I hope it doesn't come to that. I really like the ergonomics of this one when compared to the Gen 3 and it's a natural pointer, for me anyways. That said, I'd rather retrain myself to shoot the Gen 3 that doesn't feel as good (and after this, hopefully will never have to have any interaction with Glock customer service), than hold onto and put my life on the line with a gun I don't trust.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 04:40 AM
that fancy glock thread on arfcom's got the reaper all riled LOL :)

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 04:47 AM
I thought they could do testing procedures to check for voids, but I'm sure it incredibly expensive. Some sort of radar scanning maybe. More batch checks? I know MIM is cheapest, but to do it right and check the parts would negate the savings. So no one does it. They may have already changed to a system that's more expensive. If they have to replace a bunch of broken parts or do a recall, their savings are lost. I doubt it will come to that though, that would be some pretty extreme MIMitis, but I hate it none the less.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 04:54 AM
yeah MIM's unavoidable nowadays, unless you get a supergrade wilson 1911 full of bulletproof bar stock parts for $3,600 lol

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 05:03 AM
Ya I know it's unavoidable, but I don't have to like it. I think Colt and Sig still use a lot of bar stock in their 1911's. I wanted a Rock River but they don't make them anymore. Why does Glock have to jump on the short bus. It seems to be a recent change. So why? Got sick of building good guns? Figured what the hell it was a good run, lets get into the replacement parts business.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 05:11 AM
I think Colt and Sig still use a lot of bar stock in their 1911's

they use tool steel, along with cast and MIM. also plastic. many colts come with plastic MSH's and triggers.

even the fancy (and expensive) DW valors don't use barstock, although many mistakenly believe they do because they advertise "no MIM" on the cz website. it's actually tool steel.



i fit barstock parts (wilson, ed brown) to my 1911's whenever i change a part. i just do it because 'smthing is fun, not because i'm worried about the MIM parts failing. and if i'm going to spend a bunch of time fitting a new part, might as well get top of the line lol

Springfield armory makes quality MIM. it's all about the quality :)

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 05:54 AM
As far as I know, the Colt XSE I bought only has 3 MIM parts. The sear, disconnector, and magazine catch. Then the thumb and grip safeties are cast, the slide, barrel, receiver, and slide stop are forged and everything else is machined from bar stock. Then the grips are wood and the mainspring housing is plastic. Bar stock isn't any particular type of steel. It's just steel billet, literally a bar of steel stock that can me smashed, mashed, milled, machined, etc. Tool steel can be any of several types of steel too. Sig I think did something similar when they first started making the GSR's but I don't know if they still do. Those are the 2 production companies I had it narrowed down to when I was avoiding MIM 1911's. It's tragically probably not true of either anymore.

PO2Hammer
June 1, 2011, 10:12 AM
This isn't going to start a flame war, but I don't like the term 'fan boy'.

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 03:54 PM
Anyone have any secret tricks for getting a hold of Glock? An extension or name to someone who took care of them in the past maybe? I keep getting transferred to Technical Services then hung up on. Any idea if someone stocks older Glock extractors? I don't want to put aftermarket parts on the gun for liability reasons, as it will be a carry gun. I'm sure Lone Wolf or somebody has something but I'd like to keep the parts OEM. For the recoil spring assembly I'm stuck dealing with Glock.

Apocalypse-Now
June 1, 2011, 04:05 PM
^^yep, that's glock's version of CS LOL :)

glock won't send you a new extractor unless you're a certified armorer. you have to seek one out, then hope and pray glock actually sends the (right) part lol (i've been there done that several times)

rather than deal with glock again, i found my replacements extractors in local shops that employ certified armorers. they had older extractors in stock :) (glock may very well send you another bad one lol)

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 04:20 PM
Ya I might have to call Brownells or something and ask them to send me the oldest "new style" extractor they have. Give me the one from the back of the shelf. Hopefully it isn't MIM. I have to drive about 40 miles south to deal with decent people. The local shop here is the shadiest gun store I've ever been to, I went in once and won't go back. They charge $200 over what anyone else charges and their FFL fee is 3 times the norm. Then when you don't buy anything they won't buzz you out. They make you stand there until someone else leaves.

They wanted $729 for a Remington 700 SPS Tactical, went down south, it was $569 new. Their FFL fee is like $70 too. I don't think so. Told them there's no way I'd pay that much for that gun or their FFL, so they belittled me about not supporting local businesses and going with cheaper alternatives who don't have to maintain storefront's etc etc. The place down south has a storefront and they manage to sell the same things for 25% less.

ForumSurfer
June 1, 2011, 04:38 PM
I don't know what to tell you. I have the "0 4" assembly in my gen4 19 and I'm north of 2500 rounds without a single failure as of yet. I've ran tula, my defensive ammo, +p stuff, wwb and pretty much every brand of target ammo out there through it with no issues. I've never locked the slide back and held there and to be honest, I don't clean it religiously...maybe every 500 or so rounds. I didn't do anything special when I bought it or even lubricate it before my first cleaning. I just broke the seal, checked for barrel blockage and loaded up a few mags.

Maybe the problem runs deeper and I haven't put enough rounds through it. I hear these things are nightmares and unreliable. I'll keep shooting it until it breaks. :)

rscalzo
June 1, 2011, 05:04 PM
After every post I make, I read it and find some terrible typo or grammatical error.

Don't you hate reading a post badly written and thinking to yourself "what idiot typed this?" only to realize it was you. We all have those days.

We transitioned to the G a few years back. So far the major complaint is the stippled grips wearing out uniform shirts in a short order. But reliability has been good. No gun is allowed into service before at least a hundred rounds is fired through it in a flawless manner. New recruits put almost two thousand through before it hits the street.

I've experienced a slide falling off the frame when the slide lock spring broke. That was a bit unusual but thankfully it happened while competing and not the street. While it does happen, a replacement lock and changing the spring is easy and takes a minute or two.


As far as parts, try Topgun. This guy's service is unbelievable. Delivery is beyond rapid.

http://www.topgunsupply.com/parts-glock_parts-extractors/

SGT Duffman
June 1, 2011, 11:09 PM
Rscalzo,

The ONLY qualm I have about ordering or buying a part is having it be another defective extractor, or whatever the problem is. If I did buy something I would strongly prefer it be a Glock made part, which is the problem from what I’m seeing. According to what I've read around and been told on here, the recoil spring assembly is terrible, which Glock confirmed when I called them. It seems worse than I thought though if they are on the second generation of the "fixed" spring, which is the third generation of recoil spring assemblies to be put in the Gen 4 G19’s. They are also apparently having a problem making MIM extractors that are up to specifications. I REALLY don’t want to use aftermarket parts in a carry gun, but is there anyone currently producing a machined “new style” tactile loaded chamber extractor?

Aiko492
June 2, 2011, 12:01 AM
Sounds like you got one of the bad early Gen 4's. I have a Gen 4 G26 along with 3 other Glocks, a Sig and HK.

My personal take on gun issues is to get rid of the run. If a gun does not perform perfect out of the box, out it goes. Just got rid of a Kahr that kept jamming.

ForumSurfer
June 2, 2011, 12:23 AM
I have a Gen 4 G26

Same here, with a similar round count to my gen4 19. It hasn't had any issues either.

My personal take on gun issues is to get rid of the gun.

Same here, I'd sell it (with full disclosure, of course). If my gen4 had given me a negative experience, I would have kept my gen3 and sold the gen4. As it stands...I have what appears to be one of the few running gen4 19's. :)

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:05 AM
Alright I posted some new pictures of the extractor. I have nothing to compare it to, but it doesnít look ďrightĒ to me. It has the same depression seen in the link Reaper posted in post #7. The depression is also in the newer Gen 3 guns. I believe the extractor became a MIM part right around the time the Gen 4 came out. When I was taking the slide apart there was a piece of plastic (pic 12 and 13) that was wedged in the firing pin channel. Not off to a good start, but on the bright side, it wasnít metal. The firing pin safety also had some pretty large copper bits on it (pic 14). Then I threw in a couple pictures of the extractor in the slide (pics 15 and 16) and 5 pictures of it outside of the slide (pics 17-21). There is a depression in the ejector, I donít know if that is supposed to be there or if the injection molding didnít go all the way to the top of the mold or what. In any case there is uneven wearing on the ejector. There are a few points being worn shiny already and half of the peg is worn off. The half of the peg pointing towards the ejector face has it finish gone and some deep grooves worn in it. Not super deep but definitely more wear than anywhere else on the gun. The link to images is in post #3.

I ordered a Lone Wolf Distributors ejector and will try that to see if it changes anything. Iím extremely hesitant about having any non-OEM parts in a defensive gun though. Regardless, it should help identify the problem. The more drawn out this becomes the more I find myself wishing Iíd bought something else. I really like Glock and the 19 would perfectly fit my needs, but not if it doesnít function 100% of the time. I need to have complete faith in this gun and at this point I donít know if that would be possible, even with it fixed.

REAPER4206969
June 2, 2011, 02:11 AM
Where are the pics?

If you have a photobucket, put your cursor over the image then left click "IMG Code" then come back here and right click, than left click "paste" to put the pics in the thread.

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:38 AM
I thought and am still thinking of getting rid of it, but I'm not sure what I would replace it with. First I want to know what the actual problem is, for the sake of knowing and for the sake of letting others know. If it does turn out that the ejector is the cause of these issues, it might do me no good to get a Gen 3 as they come with the same extractors now. There are things I like and prefer in the gun over the previous generations, but I don't like them enough to use an unreliable gun as a concealed carry. The previous generations point high for me and I don't like the mag release or grip texture, but I guess those could be overcome with training.

What I don't like is the fact that the part that could be causing this is the same part now in the previous generations, so there's nowhere to run to if the extractor turns out to be the problem. Gen 3 with a bad extractor or Gen 4 with a bad extractor, what's the difference? I did some looking and there are several newer posts on several forums about the newer Gen 3 19's doing the same thing. Throwing cases all over the place and hitting shooters in the face.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1344070

This explains whats going on with bad extraction

http://www.youtube.com/user/VuurwapenBlog?feature=chclk#p/u/4/wkHEdNx0Mk4

The extraction is extremely haphazard and my cases are getting ruined. Brass trickling out the side of the gun, flying forward, hitting me in the face, going over my left shoulder, it's ridiculous and needs to stop. Most of them clear the chamber...some do not.

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:43 AM
I know I named all the jpg's wrong, I don't need anyone explaining the difference between ejector and extractor to me. Extractor pics.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/EjectorinSlide.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/EjectorinSlide2.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector2.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector3.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector4.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector5.jpg

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:45 AM
Is it not showing any of the pics Reaper? Or is it just missing the newer ones?

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:52 AM
New pic of the wear and tear on the extractor peg. Looking kind of rough after 438 rounds.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/ExtractorPeg.jpg

REAPER4206969
June 2, 2011, 03:35 AM
They come up when I click them.

That is the new extractor with the strange "curve" to it. There have been many reports of problems with these on most gun forums. These are even now in the GEN3's. There was a thread on Arfcom where his extractor was unbelievably beat up after very few rounds as well.

It sure looks MIM as you can see what appears to be a sprue mark on the top. Also, on my 2008 era extractor it has very clear machine marks on the front of the claw.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Ejector4.jpg

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 01:24 PM
Do any of the pictures from the link in Post #3 work? Or just the ones I individually post a link to?

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 02:21 PM
Called Glock again this morning at 1050PST (150EST for them) and surprise surprise, finally got through to someone. Fifth time is the charm. It only took being on hold four times for about 2 hours, but the fifth time paid off in 9 minutes.

This time they made no attempt to blame me or the ammo, which was also a pleasant surprise. They said they're having some issues and are backlogged with the replacement recoil spring and have no idea when the new shipment from Austria will come in. They sound like they've got a hell of a mess on their hands, the guy was in quite a hurry to get my information so I could just return the pistol. He didn't want to spend any time with me discussing possible causes, he just wanted the details he needed to get me to send it back for repairs. I should be expecting en E-mail from them with directions on how to do that. I asked about a prepaid shipping label and he said they do that, but it still not clear whether they will do that for me or not.

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 03:48 PM
Had a missed call from Glock @ 1148 PST, called them back at 1205 PST. This time I talked to a guy that knew his stuff, but didn't catch his name. He talked me through some troubleshooting on the extractor and from my rudimentary diagnosis the extractor seems out of specifications. It doesn't come flush with the side of the bolt face. The top part of the extractor doesn't quite come out to the edge, the bottom seems fine. It also seemed very "sticky" when manipulating it. It doesn't move smoothly and binds up, but does not get stuck or bind up enough to stop it's movement. It is also wearing considerably in a few places. He said they'd send me a new extractor and put me on the list for the new recoil spring assembly.

He also said they are on recoil spring assembly 0411 (or 04-1-1 or whatever numbering system they use, there is now another revised version of the 04-1 spring with another 1 somewhere) now not just 04-1. That would mark the 4th evolution of the recoil spring assembly in the Gen 4 Glock 19. I suggested it might be the extractor, not just the recoil spring assembly, and he shied away from mentioning MIM, so I did and he confirmed they are MIM now. I'm smart enough not to voice my stupid opinion on MIM to the one guy that genuinely seems helpful so we just agreed that when done right MIM is ok. He told me of some problems they'd also had with the machined extractors in the past, particularly on the 20/21 pistols at some point. I would still prefer it be machined and not MIM, but I am more concerned that it work correctly and not be an aftermarket part. So I'll try a new extractor and hopefully it will work, if not I still have one on order from Lone Wolf. I'm a finicky enough person that I HAVE to know why this doesn't work. If I can get it working I might keep it or I might not. I won't know until it's fixed and had at least a thousand trouble free rounds of various types through it. I'll make a decision then, until then I guess the Kahr P45 stays the carry gun.

Apocalypse-Now
June 2, 2011, 03:58 PM
the two bad extractors that replaced did indeed have that dip in the top of it. i replaced one that was machined, and another with a factory cast(or MIM) one that did not have the dip. both solved all issues.

it should be known that the dip is not indicative of a bad extractor, they all have it now. however, MANY of the dip ones are indeed out spec, and glock has been putting them out for some time. i bought my g19 with the bad "dip" extractor almost 2 years ago, and then got another bad one with me recent gen4 g23 purchase. the extractor on the gen4 g23 was WAY more out of spec. first gun i had that sent empties to the left! LOL



sgt duffman (duffman is one of my fav simpons characters btw :) ),

i would get it from brownells, they have an unlimited return policy. just in case you get another bad one, although i doubt it would happen :)

SGT Duffman
June 2, 2011, 10:48 PM
Well, I'm getting Glock to send me a replacement and I also ordered one from Lone Wolf. I'm not sure, but I believe the Lone Wolf is machined. I got it with the intent of using it as a non Glock model to compare to. Hopefully it will cause Glock to look at the extractor as a possible cause for these issues. The fact that they are on the 4th iteration of recoil spring assemblies without solving the problem suggests, to me anyways, that perhaps the recoil spring isn't the problem. It's just the easiest thing for Joe Sixpack to look at and say, "hey this is different it must be the problem." The fact that the newer production (since the MIM "upgrade") gen 3 guns are having similar issues should be an indication that the spring is not the culprit or not the only culprit. Granted I see a lot less reports about them having the problem so it probably isn't as frequent as the Gen 4 guns, but it is a problem none the less. The older gen's do not have the double captured recoil springs....so.... maybe it's time to eliminate the recoil spring as the culprit, or at the very least consider it an accomplice and look into the extractors as well.

I've heard that the extractor should just fall out when there's nothing left holding it in and mine certainly doesn't do that. After removing the entire extractor spring assembly and the firing pin safety parts, I have to pry the extractor out with a punch. From talking to Glock too, prying the extractor out with a small punch while everything is assembled, the edge of the extractor that goes over the case lip should come out far enough to be flush with the ridge running down the right side of the bolt face, and mine is not. The lower half of the extractor moves far enough towards the outside to clear the bolt face, but the top 1/4 or so of the extractor cannot be made to come flush with the side of the bolt face, which may explain all the excess wear on the peg of the extractor. Not the most scientific method I know, but I'm not a scientist.

I also talked to them about the slide releasing when a mag is inserted. They said that can happen when the muzzle is pointing up, but I couldn't quite understand the reasoning behind it as it was explained to me. Regardless, I then tried it with the muzzle pointing straight down, halfway down, forward, halfway up and straight up after I was told that and it does it those ways too. In the video I posted the muzzle was flat and I was holding the gun sideways and it did it then, so I don't know. Maybe the slide release has a weak spring or something.

I'm still not sure why it's tearing up the brass though. If it was tearing up the rear or cases I'd point my finger at the extractor but it's tearing up the front of the cases, that would make me think the chamber, but the scratches aren't running the case length so that makes no sense either. The only thing I can think it after being pulled from the chamber by the extractor and hitting the ejector maybe the extractor is holding on to the cases longer than it should and they're being run across the ejection port of the slide after the ejector has spun them sideways. If that's the case then we're back to the extractor, or an over length ejector, which I doubt.

john5036
June 3, 2011, 12:22 AM
The slide releasing when the mag is inserted with some authority is very common, some owners of other polymer guns report the same happenings. Nothing to worry about it, some guys take advantage of that during tactical reloads.

Are you putting some force into the reload, or are you just casually loading the mag until it clicks into place?

I'd worry if the slide releases on its own when you do nothing to it.

My Gen3 19 does it on occasion, and I can almost do it on cue every time I try.

VKG17
June 3, 2011, 12:52 AM
If you're set on the GLOCK 19 but won't trust this one despite any successful fixes then sell this one and find an earlier model.

REAPER4206969
June 3, 2011, 12:55 AM
Nice that we got a confirmation on the MIM.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 12:57 AM
It's safe to say I'm 100% certain they're seated when I load a mag. I don't sneak it in there. I've never had it happen on any of my other guns, to include the other Glock. Some might see it as a feature, but like I said in one of the other posts, I don't like not having control over the slide myself. I'm used to "sling shotting" the slide after seating the mag. Not the fastest way, but the surest, most reliable, and most transferable way I can think of. I don't have to fumble around with slide releases or change my grip, it works on any pistol without changing tactics, and I know that the magazine is fully seated before I do it, so I'm positive a round should have been chambered. The slide releasing on it's own scares me because it's something I'm not doing or in control of. I'm also not certain that the magazine was completely seated before the round was stripped off. I guess I'm just finicky, but I don't like the idea of any gun doing something the operator hasn't explicitly caused it to do.

REAPER4206969
June 3, 2011, 01:04 AM
Many pistols will do that.

There is no need to slam the mag in so hard.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 01:06 AM
VKG,

It might not do any good to sell it. The newer production Gen 3 guns are having the same issues, (~2-3 years) albeit less frequently. They switched the extractor manufacturing processing and I think they're still working the kinks out. Dunno if it was just a bad batch or if they haven't quite perfected the process yet, but they seem to be having widespread extraction issues. When I say widespread I don't mean 1 out of every 10 guns or something, but certainly more than they've seen in past generations. New Glocks are not old Glocks, and a Glock is a Glock does not seem to apply. That being said, I'm sure MOST people probably have no problem, but there are enough people having problems that Glock has gone through the trouble and expense to redesign the recoil spring assembly 4 times and ship them for free to people with trouble. They are also currently out of stock of the most recent redesign and have no idea when they will have more stock.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 01:14 AM
Reaper,

I suppose it's not neccessary but old habits die hard. I think it's from using the Kahr which seems to take some abuse to get to seat with a full mag and 1911's with no base pads on the mags. They like it rough and I oblige. I should add that that comes more from stripping one off the mag to chamber one then refilling the mag and reinserting it. Loading those mags has just carried over into loading all mags.

VKG17
June 3, 2011, 01:23 AM
It might not do any good to sell it. The newer production Gen 3 guns are having the same issues, (~2-3 years) albeit less frequently. They switched the extractor manufacturing processing and I think they're still working the kinks out. Dunno if it was just a bad batch or if they haven't quite perfected the process yet, but they seem to be having widespread extraction issues. When I say widespread I don't mean 1 out of every 10 guns or something, but certainly more than they've seen in past generations.

I didn't know that.

Unless there is a need for a light, seek out a gen2. These are what GLOCK built its reputation on (the G17s and G19s of the late '80s and early '90s, that is).

New Glocks are not old Glocks, and a Glock is a Glock does not seem to apply.

Just as new Marlins are not old Marlins, new Bushmasters are not old Bushmasters, new Remingtons are not old Remingtons and, quite plainly, new SIGs are not old SIGs. The situation is unfortunate.

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 01:34 AM
I've heard that the extractor should just fall out when there's nothing left holding it in and mine certainly doesn't do that. After removing the entire extractor spring assembly and the firing pin safety parts, I have to pry the extractor out with a punch.

yep, the out of spec ones need to be pried out.

another note, i haven't read a single experience about the 0-4-1 spring that mentioned any issues whatsoever. :)

once you replace the extractor, and pop in the 0-4-1, i'd bet the farm it'll work flawlessly for you, my friend.

i wouldn't sell and take a loss. yeah it sucks that glock did seemingly no product testing before marketing the gen4 9mm's, and they keep puttin out bad extractors on top of that, but you can resolve all that and have a reliable weapon :)

a friend on another forum went and sold his gn4 g29 right before i posted about the 0-4-1 spring, and the bad extractors, and took a loss doing so. he wishes he kept it, might buy another.

(also, don't slam the mag so hard like the reaper said. it takes almost no effort to seat a mag properly)

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 01:43 AM
Nice that we got a confirmation on the MIM.


my out of spec "dip" extractors didn't have the MIM "sprue". i'll bet you glock is experimenting with different types of production (based on cost, of course). that's why i'm thinking mine were cast. they only have the casting lines....whereas duffman's pics certainly look MIM.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 01:45 AM
Apocalypse,

When I called them back today they said they were on recoil assembly 04-1-1 or 04-1.1, however they number it, there are two 1's now. I asked him about 04-1 springs because that was the newest iteration I'd heard of, he said they're actually on 04-1 1 now, but they don't have any left and don't know when they'll be getting more. On the mag thing ya, I know, I carried it over from seating full mags with closed slides. Locked slides take nothing, but I still do it anyways. I do far more loading and unloading than mag changes on empties. I suppose I could change that if I shot every day. Old habits...

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 01:50 AM
^^it's entirely possible that simply replacing the extractor may very well solve all your issues even without getting the new spring. todd green had nothing but probs with his gen4 g17 model, even after updating the spring. then he swapped out the extractor, and it's run perfect for 5,000 rounds so far ;)

however, i would still request the newest spring from glock (it's free, so why not? lol). i've never heard of 04-1-1. i've seen a few pics of the 0-4-1 though. wonder if they just renamed the part number, or actually came out with a 50th spring update LOL


either way, i say keep that sucker. no sense in taking a loss, especially if you like it, and these options will almost assuredly fix it :)

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 02:10 AM
I had them send me a new extractor which they're doing, and he put me on the list for a new spring when they come in. They're also supposed to be sending me an email with directions to send the pistol back for work should it be neccessary. I also ordered a Lone Wolf extractor to try out. If nothing else I'll have an extractor to compare to. The Lone Wolf is supposed to be identical to the older gen 3 extractors so it'll be interesting to compare them. I'll take some pics and bust out the callipers and go to work on the lot of them when I get them. Compare the 2 Glocks to each other, then both of them to the Lone Wolf.

I still haven't decided the guns fate yet, that will ultimately depend on what I can do about it's performance. If I can get it running the way it should have run out of the box I may keep it. I haven't decided yet because it's not running that way and I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to trust it. Only time and rounds will tell. Sucks having to fix something that's brand new though. Whole reason I got a 19 is because they're supposed to be the standard for compact 9mm reliability. Yet here we are.

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 02:16 AM
I had them send me a new extractor which they're doing

so, they sent you one without making you seek out a cert armorerto order it for you?

you musta gotten the right guy on the phone LOL. happened to me once too with glock. it's about as rare as winning the lottery-you really lucked out :)


yeah i was pretty annoyed at having to purchase a new extractors for my brand new glocks as well. there's no way that glock doesn't know the extractors are bad. they probably had a zillion of them made, and don't want to trash them. i say that because it must be cheaper to deal with the occasional warranty issue rather than do that. many of the out of spec extractors don't cause reliability issues, just erratic extraction, and people don't call glock about it. same with the recoil springs--many didn't have any probs with the first one.

pretty crappy way of doing business for sure.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 02:39 AM
It's funny you mention the lotto. I know they don't like giving those things out, so after actually getting them on the phone twice today, after missing a call back from Glock :what: . I bought some lotto tickets. First time for everything I guess. That's why I didn't get into MIM stuff with the guy I got when I returned their call. He was pretty cool with me. Said he'd been working there for like 21 years. Helped me check the extractor and told me about the springs. He had me break it down, then I told him it had the 03 spring before he told me why I was breaking it down. I guess he thought I'm not a complete idiot and can actually remove the 4 parts necessary to replace the extractor. Or maybe I am an idiot and he's waiting for me to void my warranty. Either way I should get an extractor and a recoil spring.

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 03:09 AM
now that one time they sent the extractor directly to me for my g19--the glock rep sent the wrong one LOL

he actually sent a 40cal extractor (this was before i bought the g23). i was thankfully able to trade it out for the right one at my buddy's shop. the glock rep said he was also sending an ejector, which never arrived lol

glock is notorious screwing up parts ordering. if you do indeed get the right ones delivered to your home: buy more lottery tickets!! LOL


the rep told me that they literally have one lady that mails out the parts for the entire warranty dept! (and she's probably 110 years old lol)

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 03:13 AM
another note, the 40cal extracto is almost identicanl to the 9mm one, and will fit in your g19. the way to tell the difference is the very tip of the claw.

the tip on the 9mm one has parallel edges, where as the 40cal's are slightly angled.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 03:30 AM
Um.... I don't suppose the .40 is marked with a 1 is it?

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 03:36 AM
We'll see if I win the lottery this time around. If I do I might just buy Glock then I won't have to worry about parts. Then I'll change everything back to the way it used to be and charge raise the price of new pistols $10 to offset the expense of not using substandard MIM parts in the first place. I think it'd be worth $10 to not deal with this, how about you? Come to think of it, I could just save the $10 by ditching the double spring, the gen 4 frame, grip, and mag release modifications can stay, but the recoil spring was unnecessary. So no price change after all, I might even lower the price $10 since the extra machining process of boring out the front of the slide to accomodate the huge recoil assembly will be unecessary. MIM is also unecessary.

SGT Duffman
June 3, 2011, 08:37 PM
Still no e-mail from Glock....

ForumSurfer
June 3, 2011, 10:58 PM
I also talked to them about the slide releasing when a mag is inserted.

My gen4 17, my gen3 19 and my gen4 19 all do that if you slam the mag home with your hand on the heel of the mag. My buddy's gen3 17 does it. He also stated that his old department issue gen2 17 did the same thing, as well.

I never really thought of it as an issue, kind of a bonus to me.

Reaper is right, if you don't do it as hard...the slide doesn't go home. But it does that for me on nearly every reload when I'm pushing myself running drills. Honestly, I like that it does it. The first few times I didn't notice and I ended up racking out a round on reloads, I've since learned to just deal with it. When it works, great...when it doesn't slam home automatically I just rack it with my off hand as usual.

SGT Duffman
June 7, 2011, 03:46 AM
The Lone Wolf extractor came in today. I hit it with the calipers and checked some other things to see how it differs from the factory Glock. There are a couple significant differences, but most of the measurements were the same, but not all of them, and there were some geometry differences. When I get done editing the pictures I'll post link to them.

SGT Duffman
June 7, 2011, 04:57 AM
The Lone Wolf Extractor

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/LoneWolfExtractor.jpg

Glock Extractor

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockExtractor.jpg

Glock and Lone Wolf from the loaded chamber side

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockandLoneWolfExtractors.jpg

Loaded chamber indicator differences

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockvsLoneWolfExtractor2.jpg

The extractors from the top

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockvsLoneWolfExtractor3.jpg

The extractors for the bottom

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockvsLoneWolfExtractor.jpg

Ectractor faces differences 1 and 2

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockvsLoneWolfExtractor5.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/GlockvsLoneWolfExtractor4.jpg

Extractor face geometry differences

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/ExtractorFaces.jpg

Casting mark comparison between the 2 extractors

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/CastingMarks.jpg

SGT Duffman
June 7, 2011, 05:22 AM
Differences in taper between Glock and Lone Wolf.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Tapers.jpg

REAPER4206969
June 7, 2011, 05:23 AM
Good pics.

voyager4520
June 8, 2011, 02:07 PM
My G27, test-fired in Aug 09 has the MIM extractor. It cycles reliably and ejects cleanly but it really chews up the rim of the brass compared to that of my G23. The G27 extractor doesn't have that depression in the middle, but it does have in that same spot a little .5mm tall porous silver bump.

SGT Duffman
June 8, 2011, 06:49 PM
Voyager,

My Gen 4 G19 is chewing up the front of the brass.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/?action=view&current=ChewedBrass.jpg

At first I thought it might have just been getting scuffed by hitting the ground, but ALL of the rounds are worn like that, and they're ALL worn the same way. Not a few here or there. It actually flattens the case mouth a bit as well. The only thing I can think is that as the brass is being extractor from the chamber and after the ejector starts pushing it out the side the extractor is holding on to the brass and it's getting drug across the slide a bit or something. If it was a chamber issue I'd expect the scratches to run lengthwise down the case and not side to side like that.

SGT Duffman
June 8, 2011, 07:06 PM
I still haven't heard from Glock CS as far as the Email with return instructions goes. Though I did miss a call from them this morning. So I called them back this morning and left a message for Anthony Burdett to call me back with no such luck. I also have not received the extractor or recoil spring assembly they said they would send. I don't know if maybe they're waiting for the recoil spring to send everything at once, or if they just told me they'd help me so I'd shut up and stop calling them. In any case this whole process is putting a very sour taste in my mouth for Gen 4 Glocks and all Glocks generally. I love my 21, but after having dealt with this, I don't think I would get another Glock. If I can't get this one working to the point where it can regain my trust, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

I'm tempted to get a gen 3 G19 in trade for the Gen 4, but I'm really growing to dislike and even hate Glock, so I don't know. I definitely don't want them getting any more money from me though. They're being made with the same crappy parts now anyways. All I wanted was a reliable compact 9mm with good mag capacity. I will not consider XD pistols, they're disgusting and a mile wide from the top of the slide to the bottom of the rail, they're also larger in every dimension and heavier. S&W and Ruger are also out on moral grounds. I won't support gun makers who support anti second amendment actions or legislation. Unfortunately I learned of Colt's anti 2A after buying it, so it squeaked by. I guess we'll see what happens.

ForumSurfer
June 9, 2011, 09:09 AM
I love my 21, but after having dealt with this, I don't think I would get another Glock.

I know what you mean. My gen4 has been nothing but reliable, but if my experience mirrored yours...I'd likely be an m&p guy. I've been down the XDM path, and I didn't like it.

Bad customer service always forces me to switch brands. I get so irritated playing phone tag that spending time with the product may cause hair loss. I've yet to deal with glock cs, so I'm still a happy customer.

ny32182
June 9, 2011, 02:26 PM
The only thing that really sounds out of place to me is the extractor should move relatively freely in the slide, given the FP safety, etc, are already removed and everything is clean. As you can see the pistol will still function even if it is gummed up. You have a new extractor now; I'd check to see if it moves easier in the slide, and if it does, I'd drop that puppy in and go shooting. Lone Wolf has a good rep; that exractor is likely more than good to go till the new OEM one comes in.

Dropping the slide by seating the magazine is fine; I try to get mine to do it by slamming the mag in; if it works, great, if not, just slingshot. If you don't want it to do it, don't slam the mag.

Most Glocks I've ever seen do that to the brass. I believe it is coming from contacting the edge of the ejection port on the way out, but you'd need a high speed camera to confirm. Either way it is inconsequential. The sizing die irons it out with no problems.

If it were me I'd replace the extractor and then do more shooting and less chatting, in order to discover if it actually works.

SGT Duffman
June 9, 2011, 05:02 PM
The Lone Wolf extractor has been installed, but it hasn't been shot yet. The Lone Wolf drops free and seems to be a lot better made. Gotta find more ammo. Would try it with reloads but I'm hesitant to use any reloads until I think I've got the reliability and extraction issues sorted out. I don't want any variables throwing things off. This is getting to be an expensive experiment. 500rds with nothing really to show for it. It's great to have the practice I guess, but not great if it's all for naught with a gun that may end up leaving the stable. Every change means starting over. I'm still tracking the total round count, but every time I change something, it's clock gets started over. Given all the problems it won't be finding it's way into a holster until it gives me a thousand trouble free rounds. So I'd like to make any changes that are going to be made, then leave it at that, and then start the round count again. Shooting in the interim seems like wasting bullets.

Here's a video of the difference when removing the extractors.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/?action=view&current=GlockExtractorvsLoneWolfExtractor.mp4

Apocalypse-Now
June 11, 2011, 05:08 AM
i think it'll work flawlessly with the lone extractor, duffman. this has been the case in every thread i've read about people replacing bad glock ones with that LW :)


My Gen 4 G19 is chewing up the front of the brass.

that's how my brass looks out of my gen4 g23 as well (even after the extractor change). many gen2's and gen3's will do that as well. some do and some don't. i even called glock about it, and they said it's normal.

Smaug
June 11, 2011, 06:48 AM
Then came the G19. The only ammo that has been fired through it is Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ.

As of yesterday the pistol has 438rds through it, all WWB.

Here is the problem. WWB is the most underpowered ammo out there. Glocks are designed to function reliably with most ammo, but especially self defense, police, and military ammo. (which is hotter than WWB) In order for +P+ ammo not to tear up the gun, the spring is probably a little stiff during break-in for cheap range ammo.

Since the first 100 rds I haven't had any more failures

This was my experience with my Gen 3 Glock 34. (competition 9mm model) I was upset at first too, after all, that's why I bought a Glock. It was going to be my all-around centerfire handgun: home defense, competition, target gun... I had no more failures after the first 100 rounds, even with WWB. I had to chalk it up to break-in and cheap ammo.

It is the ammo, not the gun. They are cost-cutting to try to offer the lowest per-box price. Powder charge is one area. Lighter bullets is another.

You have to adjust your expectations to today's cheap ammo, or start reloading your own.

AZ Hawkeye
June 11, 2011, 07:16 AM
This thread sums up why I just recently purchased another Gen 3 Glock rather than a Gen 4...

Apocalypse-Now
June 11, 2011, 04:11 PM
^^your post sums up nonsense.

If you did bother to read the thread, you'd know bad extractors are coming in gen 3 and 4's.;)

SGT Duffman
June 11, 2011, 07:04 PM
I don't buy the cheap ammo or low powered ammo excuse. WWB is a factory load made to SAAMI specifications and thus should function in any production pistol. Saying it's made for one type of ammunition is ridiculous. I've ordered more ammo (250 rd UMC Mega Pack in 115gr, 100rds of 124gr Am Eag FMJ, 150 rds of 115gr Am Eag FMJ) and made some reloads (CCI small pistol primers, Win brass, 4.0gr Win 231, and 115gr Rem FMJ), but I don't want to shoot the reloads until it has proven reliable with factory ammo, which it hasn't.

That said even though it hadn't "malfunctioned" after the first 100 rds it continues throwing brass extremely erratically. Sometimes forward, sometimes left, sometimes right, sometimes into my face, sometimes they just trickle out of the side. Though that may not have malfunctioned again YET, if the ejection issue isn't addressed it very well might. I think the issue has been addressed by replacing the Glock extractor with a Lone Wold Dist. extractor. I'm going to hold off shooting it more for a little bit because 1) I need the ammo I ordered 2) I would like to replace the recoil spring assembly with whatever version it is now that Glock claimed they'll be sending me. So I don't have to keep starting the round count over and over. I want to get it to where I think there will be no more issues, then check and find out.

On a side note I still haven't received the Email from Glock detailing the return instructions or any of the parts they said they were sending (Recoil spring assembly 04-1-1 and replacement extractor) nor have they called me back from when I returned a call and left a message on June 8th.

Want to see what extraction issues the new guns of either Gen 3 or Gen 4 have? See this. The problem seems more pronounced in Gen 4 guns, but both generations of the new production guns do this from my understanding due to a new manufacturing process with their extractors. Skip to ~3 minute mark, or watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkHEdNx0Mk4

SGT Duffman
June 20, 2011, 10:43 PM
Still no Email or return call from the message I left June 8th. It's too bad Glock has such horrible CS. I'm not entirely certain I'll ever get a replacement spring or extractor from them. I might try calling them again this week and see what's going on, but given the experiences I've had the rest of the time dealing with this, I'm not optimistic I'll be able to get anyone on the phone.

Apocalypse-Now
June 20, 2011, 11:26 PM
^^told ya lol :)

i hated having to pay for new extractors out of pocket, but it's a lot better than the headache of dealing with glock's cust serv.

SGT Duffman
June 22, 2011, 11:00 PM
Ya I actually thought the one guy I talked with might take care of me. Jokes on me though. I haven't tried calling them again yet, been busy with life. I may still try later this week, but I doubt I'll be able to get a hold of anyone useful. If I do somehow manage to get someone knowledgeable on the line, they'll probably do the same thing they did last time and promise me the moon and the stars to get me off the phone, then I'll have to do the same thing again in another month.

For anyone still keeping track, I have unsuccessfully been dealing with Glock customer service since May 9th. today is June 22nd. I wouldn't normally post anything about having an issue with a company, but this has become such a drawn out headache I wanted a record of it made for anyone else with the same problems, and also something I could refer back to and keep track of whats been done.

I've got the ammo to try this thing again but I want to replace the spring with whatever generation spring they're on now before I do. 4th gen spring for the Gen 4 gun last time I talked to them, maybe there are 2 new ones since then, who knows. Maybe they're still out because they're frantically trying to replace the recoil spring assembly hoping to fix what appears to be a widespread problem. If it wasn't widespread I would assume they wouldn't have been out of recoil assemblies for the last 2 months with no idea when they'll get more. What a disappointment.

voyager4520
June 23, 2011, 01:59 PM
Which recoil assembly do you have in your Gen4 G19? The 04 is the latest that Glock is willing to send out to people. Some lucky people got the 04-1 already installed in theirs when they bought them, but Glock is not sending that recoil assembly out to anyone and a few of their techs have even said it was a mistake that some guns had those when they shipped.

The 04-1 is slightly different, the larger outer spring takes up more length of the overall length of the assembly, and the muzzle cap of the guide rod is sloped as it goes toward the center of the rod so that it won't pinch the hole in the slide. If you can examine a Gen4 G21, the guide rod is pretty much the exact same thing.

I've found that most of the techs, and most of Glock USA for that matter, have no idea what the core of the company is up to until they receive the newest parts. So the 04-1 may indeed be the new standard, but the techs here in the US won't know it until they start receiving the 04-1's in place of the 04's.

If you're still experiencing malfunctions or brass-to-the-face with your 04 spring, leave the slide locked open for like a month, then take the gun to the range. Most people who've tried that had no more malfunctions, it seems even the weaker-spring version needs to be "broken-in".

voyager4520
June 29, 2011, 05:28 PM
Voyager,

My Gen 4 G19 is chewing up the front of the brass.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/?action=view&current=ChewedBrass.jpg

At first I thought it might have just been getting scuffed by hitting the ground, but ALL of the rounds are worn like that, and they're ALL worn the same way. Not a few here or there. It actually flattens the case mouth a bit as well. The only thing I can think is that as the brass is being extractor from the chamber and after the ejector starts pushing it out the side the extractor is holding on to the brass and it's getting drug across the slide a bit or something. If it was a chamber issue I'd expect the scratches to run lengthwise down the case and not side to side like that.
I just went to the range again with my G27 on Sunday. I hadn't payed too much attention to the spent casings in the past, but examining them from this last range trip they look very similar to yours. Plus I had some brass markings on the ejection port of the slide that I had to scrub out with a copper bore brush and some Hoppe's #9. I also noticed that some of the casings were ejecting straight up, hitting the ceiling of my shooting stall, and bounced straight back down on top of my head.

I'll try a Lone Wolf extractor as soon as I can. This is pretty disappointing. I read on another forum that someone else with a G27 with MIM extractor was getting hit in the face with some of his spent casings. He smoothed out the top and bottom of his extractor on a sharpening stone, tried it again at the range recently, and all of his spent casings eject consistently back and to the right now. No more brass to the face.

Here's a picture showing where on my ejection port the brass was apparently scraping against(click picture to view larger): 144728

SwampWolf
June 30, 2011, 05:15 PM
It's safe to say I'm 100% certain they're seated when I load a mag. I don't sneak it in there. I've never had it happen on any of my other guns, to include the other Glock. Some might see it as a feature, but like I said in one of the other posts, I don't like not having control over the slide myself. I'm used to "sling shotting" the slide after seating the mag. Not the fastest way, but the surest, most reliable, and most transferable way I can think of. I don't have to fumble around with slide releases or change my grip, it works on any pistol without changing tactics, and I know that the magazine is fully seated before I do it, so I'm positive a round should have been chambered. The slide releasing on it's own scares me because it's something I'm not doing or in control of. I'm also not certain that the magazine was completely seated before the round was stripped off. I guess I'm just finicky, but I don't like the idea of any gun doing something the operator hasn't explicitly caused it to do.

I have to agree with you here, Sarge. I have many semi-auto pistols and I have never had one release the slide when I didn't either "slingshot" the slide or deliberately depress the slide-release. If one ever does, I'll either get it fixed or get rid of it. The slide should get released on my terms and at my direction, not when the pistol randomly decides to release it (or not). I understand that some people actually like the idea of the pistol releasing the slide when the magazine is inserted and I suppose it could be an advantage in terms of a speedier reload. But if the manual doesn't say that the premature release is normal-then it's by definition abnormal. And, sorry, I don't want a pistol that is performing abnormally. Maybe I'm also too "finicky".

I don't buy the cheap ammo or low powered ammo excuse. WWB is a factory load made to SAAMI specifications and thus should function in any production pistol. Saying it's made for one type of ammunition is ridiculous.

I absolutely agree with you here too. If a pistol-especially one slated for self-defense duties-is too "finicky" to handle inexpensive ammunition that, as you say, conforms to SAAMI specifications, I want no part of it. Way too many people try to absolve the inherent fault and shortcomings of a pistol that they've been brand-washed to love, no matter what (and I'm not just pointing my finger at Glock fanboys), by blaming "cheap" ammunition, uncleaned magazines, limp-wristing, running it "too wet" or "too dry", insufficient "break-in", and whatever else comes to mind (some of which, however, might, in fact, have some validity in some cases).

Finally, I'm personally disgusted and offended with the pathetic customer "service" you've been receiving (or not getting) from Glock for well over a month now. I'm partial to a couple or more firearm brands myself but if I ever experienced the kind of shoddy treatment from them that you have been getting from Glock, I'd do exactly what ForumSurfer advocates: "Bad customer service always forces me to switch brands."

Tequila jake
June 30, 2011, 05:55 PM
SGT Duffman,

I've never even fired a Glock, but your posts and the others have definitely convinced me not to buy one. I've had a Kahr PM9 that had some FTF/FTE problems, a S&W M&P9 that never had any problems but the grip was too big for my small hands, a Walther PPS that was good with everything else but wouldn't reliably feed Fiocchi Extrema XTPs, and I now own a Ruger SR9. I had one FTF with the Ruger in the first 100 rounds, but since then it gobbles up everything and spits it out with no problem and fits me just fine. In fact, it's boringly reliable--which is exactly what I want.

Tequila Jake

Apocalypse-Now
July 1, 2011, 05:44 AM
I've found that most of the techs, and most of Glock USA for that matter, have no idea what the core of the company is up to

this is true. those GA guys are largely clueless when you call them. they never even heard of the 0-4-1 spring when folks first starting calling them to get it after hearing of it online. they're also shady. when i called about the two bad extractors i had, they claimed there's been no reported issues with them LOL........ "first time we've heard about bad extractors". give me a break......

voyager4520
July 2, 2011, 05:08 AM
A little update, some people on another forum are reporting that there's now an 04-2 guide rod. One person saw it on recently received Gen4 G19's at his local gun shop, others have called Glock asking about it and told that the new 04-2 assembly will be shipped to them right away.

The same person who first reported seeing the 04-2 on new guns at the gun store said it appears they have old-style extractors as well.

I've not seen any pictures to confirm either. But it's just my luck Glock would switch back to the old style extractors literally the day after I ordered my LWD extractor.

Apocalypse-Now
July 2, 2011, 06:35 AM
^^there's now a 4th updated recoil spring for gen4 g19's? :eek::eek::eek:

REAPER4206969
July 2, 2011, 01:29 PM
*facepalm*

SGT Duffman
July 2, 2011, 06:14 PM
That sounds like what I was told when I talked to the last Glock CS guy. The one that seemed generally knowledgeable and helpful. He's also the one who agreed to send me an extractor which never happened. He did however say they were on extractor 04-1 1 whatever that means. They had made further modifications to the 04-1, so there is another one or maybe it was a numeral marking for 2, but 04 is not the "new" one and the 04-1 has been further upgraded or modified to 04-1-1 or 04-1.1 or however they've chosen to annotate it. The Gen 4 pistol is indeed on the 4th iteration of the recoil spring assembly, or at least that's what I was told on June 2, 2011. That is why they are completely out of them and have no idea when they'll be available for shipment. For details on that see post #40.

I still haven't received an email detailing return instructions or a replacement recoil spring assembly or extractor like I was told they'd send. I haven't had a chance to try calling them again. Anthony Burdett still hasn't returned a call from the message I left on June 8th. So I have little to no hope of ever getting a hold of anyone over there. Until I get a few days basically with nothing going on, I don't think I'll be able to play enough phone tag with them to talk to somebody.

I'm thinking of emailing the woman who sent me their LE pricing charts, but I'm sure she knows nothing about this type of stuff. If they ever emailed me the return instructions like they said they were going to, I would have an address for someone I could ask things, maybe that's why they never sent it. God help them if their email address ever got online. They wouldn't be able to do that crap they do now, because there would be printed records of all the interactions you've had with them and the timestamps on everything.

SGT Duffman
July 2, 2011, 06:36 PM
Well.... this might be part of the reason Burdett has never returned my call. Technical Services Representative indeed.

http://www.peekyou.com/work/glock

http://www.peekyou.com/anthony_burdett/12673397

Seems to be a very professional Glock employee. Which he's demonstrating by displaying the Glock motto. Scary how easy it is to find dirt on people with the internet. I just put his name and Glock in Google and did a search, and there he is, representing Glock to a T.

SGT Duffman
July 2, 2011, 06:40 PM
Maybe I should try Chad Mathis or Paul Jannuzzo instead, at least they aren't flipping me off. I suspect getting a hold of Jannuzzo might be near impossible. He's way up the chain. If I can't talk to the customer service people I'm pretty sure they won't let me talk to the VP.

voyager4520
July 7, 2011, 12:31 PM
After seeing improvement with some, no improvement with others I'm starting to think there's more going on than just the extractor and guide rod. Especially with Gen3 guide rods with adaptors in Gen4. I thought the only other culprit would be the Gen4 guide rod and when that's eliminated problems are still happening.

I just got my LWD extractor for my Gen3 G27 yesterday. Upon inspection it looked very clean. It's obvious that it's cast, which I don't see being any problem at all, I just wanted to state that observation. There was a tiny bit of excess metal apparently from the casting process, about the size of the head of a pin. I ground it down with a 1000 grit sharpening rod. I got it ground down about halfway, then did one firm pass with the rod and the bit of metal just flew off of the extractor. I then smoothed it out nice and flush and it looks fine now. In the picture below, I drew an arrow on a picture of a Glock factory extractor to show where the little piece of excess metal was located. It was right in that corner, and from that perspective it would be protruding toward you.

http://i56.tinypic.com/316n313.jpg

EDIT:
I installed my LWD extractor last night, no telling when I'll be able to make it to the range though. I detail strip cleaned my G23 at the same time which has the original (non-MIM) extractor and got a chance to compare all three extractors.

My G23 has test-fire date in 2004. Looking closely, I think the original Glock extractor is cast. If so, it's the smoothest and most crisp casting I've ever seen. There's a number marking between the cylindrical portion and the claw of the extractor, where you'd normally see a cast line on the LWD extractor. This number marking looks like it was cast, it's not very clear but it looks like either a 12 or a 17. After nearly 1,500 rounds there's very little wear on that extractor, just where the firing pin safety rubs against it and on the bottom face of it. There's absolutely no wear on the claw of the extractor. It's confusing because it looks cast, but the front face of the extractor that you see through the ejection port has what look like machining marks. :confused:

The LWD looks like a copy of the original Glock extractor, though it's apparently not the same iteration of extractor as what came in my G23. The groove where the firing pin safety catches into has a rounded off ledge on my G23 extractor. The LWD extractor has that rounded off ledge reaching beyond the groove for the firing pin safety. I don't know if the LWD is a copy of an original Glock extractor that was earlier than my G23 extractor or later, but I suspect it was an earlier one.

Now for the MIM extractor in my G27, test-fired 2009, nearly 1,500 rounds as well. There's a number on the flat face of the cylindrical portion, a very faint "4". It has the raised part on top with the sprue mark in the middle. It does not have the "dip" around the sprue mark. I now suspect that Glock changed the mold and added the dip so the sprue mark wouldn't cause as much interference, instead of finding a way to remove the sprue mark after manufacture. The claw of this extractor is wearing pretty badly, if I run a q-tip across it the cotton will get stuck on the rough edges. There's another rough edge on the cylindrical portion of the extractor, closest to the claw. And more rough portions at either extreme end of where the firing pin safety engages it. My conclusion is that this metal is relatively soft. I could try to polish the raised parts off of the extractor to make it work better, but seeing how soft this metal is I don't see the point, the claw of the extractor looks like it'll be shot in another couple thousand rounds.

SGT Duffman
July 8, 2011, 03:39 PM
7/8/2011

I called Glock several times again today...

First I called at 1200pm PST or 3pm for Glock, and was transferred to 2 wrong departments. So I hung up and tried again.

Called back at 1203 and asked for Dan again and I'm assuming I was sent to the right person, but I don't know because it went straight to voice mail and didn't say who it was.

Called again at 1206 and asked to be transferred to Technical Services against my better judgment, and was put on hold for 25 minutes. Lucky me, Dan answered the phone with about 5 minutes to spare. Glock will disconnect you if you're static for 30 minutes. They took all my info again, and promised to send the latest and greatest recoil spring assembly with a rush on it, but I got no love this time with regards to the extractor, so it doesn't look like I'll be getting a new Glock extractor to try. If past experience is any indication I won't be getting a recoil spring assembly either. I guess we'll see next week or the week after, I don't what a rush is to Glock, but it's Friday so at the earliest it will be next week. More likely it will be never like the last 3 times they've "sent" me a recoil spring assembly.

voyager4520
July 11, 2011, 04:49 PM
This guy on another forum said he's been waiting for quite a while for a new guide rod as well. He finally talked to a supervisor with Glock customer service who told him that looking through the computer, he was never put on a list for a new guide rod in the first place. The supervisor said he personally walked a new guide rod over to the shipping department to have it shipped to him right away.
See here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17615365&postcount=171

SGT Duffman
July 12, 2011, 12:45 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if I end up having to do the same thing. Glock CS seems pretty good at whispering sweet nothings in your ear. Some of them are very obviously more knowledgeable than others, but thus far none of them have actually been helpful. This is the 4th time they've "sent" me one. We'll see. There's always an excuse but never a reason. They already got your money, maybe they're hoping you'll break down and just go buy a new recoil spring assembly so they can get more of your money, I don't know. This whole ordeal has left me pretty pissed off, and I've gone from liking Glock to hating them. I can't imagine if this was my only carry piece, I'd be livid. So far it's taken them from May 9 until to July 11 to accomplish nothing. They've answered the phone fewer than a half dozen times out of more than a dozen calls, said they "sent" me a new recoil spring assembly 4 times, a new extractor once, and return instructions 3 times (twice they said they would email and one of those times they said they would send instructions by mail as well) and I'm no better off than when I started. I've gotten nothing from them, no explanation, no parts, no replies, no return instructions, or return phone calls from when I've left messages.

At this point I would strongly urge people considering buying a new Glock not to do so. Not Gen 4, not Gen 3, no new production Glock. If you can find a deal on an older model (Gen 1-3 produced before ~2009) go for it, you probably won't need customer service. If you're looking at a new gun, get something else. There are plenty of other polymer framed compact semi automatics on the market that are reliable, and you won't have to deal with the headache of Glocks Customer Service.

If you've got a Glock that isn't having problems, great. You're probably in the majority. If you have a problem, I'm sorry, you're going to go through hell trying to get it sorted out. I'd like to think they care about their customers (I bought mine as an LE purchase for being retired military) but they don't. If you aren't a major purchaser doing large scale contract buys, you're not going to get the help you need. If you have no reservations about doing the work yourself or aren't concerned about the liability of aftermarket parts in your gun for your purposes, you could fix it yourself. Any person with any mechanical ability what so ever could perform any work there is to do on a Glock with aftermarket parts, using no more than a punch, a rag, a wooden/plastic/rubber mallet, and your hands. The whole operation is held together with about 3 pins, there are some smaller more intricate parts but most things could be bought or replaced as sub assemblies. They're easy guns to disassemble and work on, and parts are cheap, but customer service is nonexistent, so I won't be getting another one.

SGT Duffman
July 12, 2011, 12:56 AM
If anyone is interested, I'm going to wait another week for their recoil spring assembly to show up this time. If not I'll try one more time to get one from them, after that I'm going to consider it a loss, and continue the "break in" and fire off at least a thousand rounds. Got 250rds of UMC Value pack in 115gr FMJ, 150rds American Eagle 115gr FMJ, 100rds American Eagle 124gr FMJ, and I haven't decided on the rest yet. Almost certainly some WWB 115gr FMJ, but I'm not sure how much, then maybe some UMC HP or something if I can find it around. I want to shoot some heavier stuff and some HP through it but that will depend on what I can find at what prices. I'll shoot some reloads too but not until I pass 1,000. I want to make sure any problems that might occur are the guns fault not mine.

tinygnat219
July 12, 2011, 10:50 AM
SGT Duffman,

Not sure what to tell you on this one. My Gen 4 19's been running like a clock with over 3000 rounds through it. It hasn't had one jam, FTF, or FTE. It just goes Bang. I feed it Blazer aluminum, Wolf Steel Cased ammo, and the usual fodder of different brass FMJ and JHP.

voyager4520
July 13, 2011, 04:47 PM
This guy on another forum said he's been waiting for quite a while for a new guide rod as well. He finally talked to a supervisor with Glock customer service who told him that looking through the computer, he was never put on a list for a new guide rod in the first place. The supervisor said he personally walked a new guide rod over to the shipping department to have it shipped to him right away.
See here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...&postcount=171

The guy who had the ordeal trying to get the latest guide rod just got his 0-4-2 for his Gen4 G19: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355671

It isn't visibly different from the 0-4-1 as far as I can tell. If they changed anything from the 0-4-1 it was likely the spring weights.

SGT Duffman
July 15, 2011, 09:33 PM
7/15/2011 Still nothing since they promised to rush out a spring for the 4th time on the 8th of July. They promised to send the first one on May 8th. It's only been a week since the last time they whispered sweet nasties in my ear, so we'll see. Vegas wouldn't carry the odds of me getting a spring though. That dude over on GlockTalk got his in 2 days...after harassing them for 2 months. I've got him beat by a couple weeks so I figure I'm due.

JCMGI
July 16, 2011, 12:05 AM
PM Sent

Ben86
July 16, 2011, 12:09 AM
I really dislike the new finish on Glocks, I think it looks uglier and I know for a fact that it wears much faster. I was unfortunate enough to have a Gen 3 Glock 19 with the new finish, and although it is about 2 years younger than my G26 and 17 it has much more wear marks, even though it saw the least usage and was used in the same holsters. The new finish is grippier, but the old one is plenty grippy enough.

I'm not jumping on the Gen 4 bandwagon anytime soon. They may have interfered with Glock perfection a bit.

SGT, I say sell it and get a Gen 3, or even better a S&W M&P. ;)

SGT Duffman
July 16, 2011, 02:17 AM
JCMGI, no PM received, I think it might make you wait a bit to send them or something.

Ben,

I would ditch it but there is no difference with the new Gen 3. They're made the same. They're having the same issues. I'd bet money the problem stems from when they did the extractor "upgrade" this last time and switched the manufacturing process to MIM. They screwed the pooch or got an out of spec order. Now they're stuck with who knows how many out of spec crappy MIM extractors, and they're not just in Gen 4 guns, they're in everything (not necessarily all glock models, but all of the new production models that use that size and model of extractor). It's not the recoil spring assembly doing this, or at least not JUST the recoil spring assembly (which should have never been changed).

As far as the Gen 3 goes, I prefer the magazine release, texture, and grip of the Gen 4, that was the whole reason I got it. My mistake was assuming (you know what they say) it would be OK, because it was Glock, I would get Glock reliability. Ultimately I've learned a lesson I already knew, don't buy the first iteration of anything. There are always kinks to work out. Problem is Glock doesn't work them out (no kinks, just "Glock perfection"), they just ignore you, they already got your money, what are you gonna do? Sell it? So what, they still got your money.

I started trying to train for the eventuality of ditching the Gen 4 for Gen 3, but it didn't work. I tried doing a bunch of drawing drills and stuff around the house with the middle back strap installed on an empty gun for safety and it wasn't the same. With no back strap I'm dead on, it just sits right, in 2 weeks of doing it with the middle strap I never got used to it. It's kind of weird, I'm dead on with the 21SF and the grip is far larger than the 19 but it's fine, it points naturally too, but not the gen 4 with the middle "Gen 3" back strap. Make no mistake, I have and still do seriously consider dumping this piece of crap for a Gen 3, but what will it really accomplish? I give them more money for a gun made the same way, with the same defective part, a poor finish, and get ergonomics that don't work for me?

I'm pretty meticulous about researching thing before I buy them, and I kept coming back to the G19 because it had long been held as the standard for a "compact" high capacity 9mm. No one else is quite as small, or light, or narrow, with the same accessory market, "reliability", etc. It always came back to G19. Never had issues with the other Glock I own, or the several I have shot, and at the time I got it, the Gen 4 had just come out. There were none of these negative reviews or reports you see all over like you do now. It took me a while, probably over a year to get around to shooting it because I was busy with life, moved a couple times and had other things going on. I figured I had the Kahr for carry so it was no big deal. I finally got settled in, 45 got expensive, and selling the Kahr started sounding alright, so I made some time, got some rounds, and finally got around to using the Glock to make sure it would be good for carry. It's not. I've been dealing with this mess ever since.

Everyone rants and raves about M&Ps and XDs, I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't care for either. I won't touch S&W, they are not and never will be forgiven. No matter how bad I wanted to replace that crappy Taurus M94 with a 617 in .22lr.

Ben86
July 16, 2011, 02:50 PM
SGT Duffman, another alternative is to trade for someone's "unperfected" Gen 3 G19. Either way I'm sure you will be able to get this Gen 4 to work for you. There is so much aftermarket support that even if Glock drops the ball this, you, perhaps with the help of a smithy, will be able to get that gun to work fine. It kind of makes me thankful mine only has a lack luster finish.

Ultimately I've learned a lesson I already knew, don't buy the first iteration of anything. There are always kinks to work out.

This is very true, across the board. All manufacturers included.

I won't touch S&W, they are not and never will be forgiven.

I'm curious why, if you feel like talking about it.

SGT Duffman
July 16, 2011, 07:16 PM
JCMGI, got it now, I'll be in touch.

Ben,

I'm not comfortable with having a used gun as a primary carry. I know it's kind of silly, but I have no idea what kind of maintenance, repairs, or "upgrades" someone might have done to their guns. Something for shooting tin cans, no problem; something for carry, I would rather not. I've replaced the Glock extractor with the Lone Wolf, but I don't like that it's come to that. I would prefer that any kind of working parts be factory parts, factory installed for legal reasons. God forbid I ever have to actually use it. The courts go a long way trying to crucify gun owners, especially if they've modified the gun.

As far as S&W goes, they sold out to the Clinton administration on gun rights. They screwed over gun makers, gun dealers, and gun buyers. They weren't an American company either (not that that is something that will stop me from buying a gun), but it does go a ways towards supporting the fact they make a lot of false claims and do a lot of posturing to sell their guns. They like to pretend it's all about craftsmanship and small in house operations and that is completely the opposite of the truth. I'd wager that most people have no idea S&W is owned by a British company from the 80's through 2001, and we know how Brits feel about guns. They anti 2A crap earned them a boycott, and it taught them a lesson after they had to shutter a couple plants and find new ownership. They also rip off most of their designs. You can read some of it here:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm

or just punch "smith wesson anti gun" in google and poke around.

I also won't do business with Ruger (responsible for large, key parts of the 94-04 gun ban), Kimber (caters for CA LE agencies, makes overpriced garbage out of the cheapest materials available), or HS Precision (Lon Horiuchi as a spokesman). Colt has been tip-toeing getting on my ban list (restricted sales, research into microchipping). I don't know why I cut them any slack. I guess their misdeeds don't outweigh their contributions yet. I feel sorry for them too, they wrote a lot of the history of this country and they're basically out of business. They've been on thin ice for awhile though.

On the opposite side of things there is Barrett (Barrett refused to sell weapons or parts to any California LE agencies because the state won't allow the sale of his firearms), STI (pulled out of the CA market in response to legislation they didn't support) and Glock (big contributions to pro gun organizations).

Ben86
July 16, 2011, 11:50 PM
That is some interesting background info, it will make for much interesting reading. Thank you.

Personally I don't pay much attention to manufacturers political deeds, I'm more focused on what they offer and for how much. But, perhaps I should pay more attention. I definitely respect your decision to hold them all accountable.

I wouldn't be too scared of used guns. I look at it the same as I do a used car. I know how to check them out to make sure they are ok, and if I'm still covered by a warranty then I'm good. Sometimes I feel more confident in a used gun that has been proven to work. Still, I respect your position. I really hope Glock makes things right.

SGT Duffman
July 17, 2011, 04:10 PM
Ya, you can't really see things on a used gun though, unless it's something obvious like an aftermarket barrel or spring assembly, cheap mags and the like. You would have no way of knowing the difference between the Lone Wolf extractor I put in and the Glock one unless you had a micrometer with you. If it was the Glock one, the gun wouldn't work, and even with the warranty you would be stuck in the boat I'm stuck in right now. If it was your only gun or only carry gun, youd of had a nonfunctional firearm for the last 3 months. Just looking at it would do you no good. Plus you would have to detail strip the gun to see the extractor, which you likely wouldn't be able to do before you buy it. I like to think I'm more mechanically inclined than the average person, but there's no practical or feasible way to detect or determine faults in a firearm before you buy it. You might field strip it but that isn't going to tell you much unless there's some huge obvious problem. The best you can hope to find is obvious home gun smithing where things have been scored or filed unnaturally. If my used car doesn't work, you're just late or take the bus, if a used gun doesn't work you're going to be REAL late and the bus isn't gonna help.

SGT Duffman
July 21, 2011, 05:19 PM
Alright. I'm fairly certain the issues I've been having will be resolved within the next week or so. I'll post more details later on.

voyager4520
July 22, 2011, 12:01 AM
Update: I finally got a chance to try the LWD extractor in my Gen3 G27. I ran 100 rounds total through it, 50 were 180gr American Eagle, 50 were 165gr American Eagle. To see my previous posts about the occasional erratic ejection I had with the factory MIM extractor and the scraped up casings it spit out, here are links to my previous posts:
1. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7362385&postcount=68
2. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7409988&postcount=83
3. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7426236&postcount=93

Good news: The gun functioned reliably with the LWD extractor.
Disappointing news: The spent casings had the same scrapes, the same gouges on the rim, and brass dust was still collecting in the same areas on the ejection port of the slide. No change.

Bad news: Ejection was MORE erratic. With the factory extractor I had the occasional casing eject straight up, bounce off the ceiling of the stall, and come right back down on top of my head. With the LWD extractor maybe 25% ejected correctly to the right, 5 casings actually ejected forward and to my left downrange, quite a few ejected over the left side of the gun, 2 casings ejected forcefully over my left shoulder and landed about 12 feet behind me, 1 casing barely bobbled out of the ejection port, and a few ejected straight up into the ceiling of the stall and came right back down onto the rear of the slide.

JBarbaresi had a similar experience when he tried the LWD extractor: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1349059

The only other thing that comes to mind as a cause is that when I detail stripped the slides of both my G23 and G27, the extractor depressor plunger channels were different. The G23 channel had a smooth straight wall. The G27 channel had equidistant gaps where the channel changes diameter, almost like the tooling used to cut the channel was becoming dull when they did my G27 slide. My G23 works perfectly with the same ammo, no scraped casings or gouged case rims, no erratic ejection. The only other thing I can think to do is try a different brand of ammo for my G27. If the cause is the extractor depressor plunger channel, there's nothing I can do about it short of taking it to a gunsmith to try to smooth out that channel. The gun functions and that's what matters, plus if I sent it back to Glock they'd test fire it, say it works and send it back to me.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I was using a brand new factory guide rod assembly during this range trip. I thought, even though my G27 was brand new when I bought it, that perhaps the recoil springs were weak and that was affecting slide velocity. I had the same scraped casings with the new guide rod assembly.

jackpinesavages
July 22, 2011, 08:23 AM
In the first part of most years Glock is really busy filling dealer orders, putting pistols onto their shelves. The second part of the year they tend to focus production matters, etc., on these sorts of things and general production.

#1.) Do NOT believe that using aftermarket parts is a solution. Particularly Lone Wolf Dist. parts, barrels, slides, etc.. Glock will eventually stand by your purchase 100%. Sorry to hear about their lack of CS with you, so far.

#2.) The comments about S&W are certainly 180 degrees from my experiences with them, pertaining to their Customer Service. I have bought several used 3rd gen. Smiths that they did warranty work on, for nothing; shipping labels through UPS, did warranty work + went through pistols and replaced/upgraded parts for free. All I had to do was contact them, package pistols, and deliver/pick up at UPS hub. Your comment per ..." we know how the British feel about guns..." and an English company owning S&W for a while? Their revolvers and semi-auto M&P line has been pretty sterling as well.

The differences between 2nd and 4th gen. Glocks are cavernous in parts differentiations. Give them a chance to make it right and you'll be more than satisfied. If you can't wait for that simply return the pistol where you bought it from. Got the receipt?

SGT Duffman
July 22, 2011, 02:02 PM
Jack,

1) I didn't want to use aftermarket parts, because it's a liability nightmare, but after unsuccessfully dealing with customer service for almost 3 months and having no parts to show for it, it became necessary to get parts through a source other than the manufacturer. However, that should be changing shortly.

2) No one said anything about S&W customer service. I said they're anti second amendment. If they don't want me to be able to buy their guns, that's fine, I won't buy them. If you don't know what I'm talking about when I said an English firm (Tomkins PLC) ran the company for 15 years you might want to look into it. That's also the time period they were making deals with the Clinton administration to make gun laws here like they are in England, or did you forget you couldn't buy something that held more than 10 rounds for a decade? That's why Smith and Wesson will never see a dollar from me. As far as I know it's in American hands again, but I don't think they've changed politically. Sure, they'll sell guns to you. They like your money, but it's more because they didn't get the contracts they wanted. M&P tells you who the guns were made to be sold to, if they had their way, those are the only people they'd be sold to. They also pretend their some small custom operation when they're one of the largest gun manufacturers in the world. $830 for a .22 revolver? No thanks.

As far as returning the Glock, the gun was purchased probably 18 months ago. I don't know of any gun dealer that is going to let you return a gun after that period of time or with ~500 rounds through it.

I believe Glock is finally making it right and I'll have more details on that shortly, probably within the next week or so. I would also say thus far, I've given them more than a fair chance of making things right. I'd say being on hold for 30 mins and then being hung up on/disconnected a half dozen times, not getting the returns instructions that were said to have been emailed twice, not getting return instructions that were said to have been snail mailed twice, not getting calls returned for 6 weeks and counting, and being told parts are on their way 4 times over almost 3 months and getting nothing, is more than a fair chance. Had this been an only gun, it wouldn't of lasted a month. All that being said, I hope and think they've made some changes.

Ben86
July 23, 2011, 12:53 AM
I believe Glock is finally making it right and I'll have more details on that shortly, probably within the next week or so.

Please do keep us updated, I'd like to know exactly how they handled this.

SwampWolf
July 23, 2011, 01:23 PM
$830 for a .22 revolver? No thanks.

So you apparently think it costs more to make a centerfire revolver than a rimfire one, everything else being equal? :rolleyes:

SGT Duffman
July 23, 2011, 03:49 PM
Ya, apparently they want you to think that. Are they building the things out of titanium or something? I mean really, it's a .22. They don't have to hit a primer, wall thickness isn't an issue, but I guess if it malfunctioned you could beat someone to death with it. I don't think there is a .22 on the market I'd pay $830 for, let alone a revolver. I'd could almost get 2 Marlin 39's for that. Maybe 2 Goldenboys and a Model 60. Maybe just a half dozen model 60s. If I didn't hate Ruger I could get 3 MK IIIs with $100 to spare, and those are great little pistols.

voyager4520
July 27, 2011, 04:39 AM
I picked up a non-LCI 15 degree .40 extractor for my G27. :D They're not made anymore but I found a store that had some REALLY old stock from Glockmeister. So old I had to clean the surface rust off of it. :neener:

Now I just need to order a non-LCI spring loaded bearing, get some ammo other than American Eagle, and I'll be ready for my next attempt at fixing the erratic ejection and scraped brass I get out of this gun. I plan to try this extractor, one box of American Eagle, and one box of another brand. If it's not being caused by the extractor or the ammo, this range trip should tell me that.

SGT Duffman
July 27, 2011, 05:03 AM
Alright. Here’s the deal, about a week and a half ago Chad Mathis, Glock’s VP, contacted me on here through a PM. Don’t ask me how he stumbled across the thread, because I don’t know. I did jokingly say maybe next time I called I should try talking to him instead of Technical services, and then went on to say it would never happen. Well, it did. I called him and we talked for about 10 minutes, he apologized for what I'd dealt with and asked me what I wanted to do, I told him I’d like to get a new recoil spring assembly and a new extractor. The extractor is an armorer only part so he couldn’t send me that directly but arranged for me to get one. So I now have a new recoil spring assembly and a new Glock extractor that I promptly inspected for differences.

The long and short of it is that they are now on recoil spring assembly 0-4-3, which by my count marks the 5th iteration of recoil spring assemblies (the original 03, 0-4, 0-4-1, 0-4-2, and now 0-4-3), it is noticeably different than the old 03 mine has had on it since I bought it. I know the 03 is old, that’s why I was trying to replace it months ago, I guess it could be a mixed blessing I didn’t. I appear to have the latest and greatest one, and hopefully it stays that way (meaning I hope this one fixes the problems and that Glock has figured it out). There is also a metal spring cup on the front and overall the spring seems to be held on straighter and doesn’t bind up as much. It definitely feels smoother just cycling the gun.

The extractor I have now is also noticeably different than the stock version. It looks like a hybrid between the original Glock and the Lone Wolf. It still looks cast from some of the lines, but there are no depressions or sprue marks on it, and overall it looks a lot better made than the previous one. There are different measurements as well, some of which might be from wear on the original (if one measurement was off by a couple thousandths I didn’t worry about it); others I think are different enough to be a change. Some of the geometries match the original in some locations; others more closely match the Lone Wolf. It also drops free from the extractor channel (like the Lone Wolf) unlike the original. I will also post pictures of the extractor. I ran the calipers around in the extractor channel while the extractor was out to see if it was cut weird or anything like that and it seemed OK. I don’t know what the measurements should be but its parallel, so I think it’ll be fine. As a side note I noticed there was some wear on the extractor depressor plunger. It was pitted and scored around about half of the front circumference and worn where the extractor contacts it. This might be normal (maybe someone can chime in), but I thought it was worth mentioning. The 21SF has a little bit of the same on it in the same places, but nowhere near as severe. It’s got maybe 1/6th as much wear and almost twice as many rounds fired as the 19.

I really do want Glock to figure this out, and I hope they have, because I love my other Glock, and Glock is a good company for gun owners. They do right, as far as supporting pro 2nd amendment causes and they’re good to the troops. There’s no doubt I had a terrible run with customer service though, and I think Mr. Mathis is doing what he can to sort that out so that no one else will have to do what I did. I appreciate that he went out of his way to help me, and if I was him, I’d be pissed that I had to intervene and do customer services’ job for them. Now all I gotta do is go shoot this thing some more and make sure it works.

Pictures are up here:


http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/

voyager4520
July 27, 2011, 06:17 AM
^ Thank you for the pictures!

The new extractor looks exactly like an LCI extractor made before Glock started using the MIM extractors. I hope that means that Glock has gone back to using their old extractors, but it's possible that yours is a unique case in which Glock gave you an old pre-MIM extractor.

The 0-4-1 and 0-4-2 recoil assemblies did not have that metal collar at the muzzle end. To my eye there was no difference between the two, so whatever difference there was must've been minor. Here's a thread with pictures showing the 0-4-2 assembly: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355671

Dr Who
July 27, 2011, 08:20 AM
The only ammo that has been fired through it is Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ. ]


Most ( but not all) firing cycle problems with the Glock 9mm`s are caused by using underpowered ammo. Most commercial USA made _non LE_ and non +p or +p+ ammo is significantly under-loaded by the makers past their published specs, due to liability issues that may result from use in the very old WW II military 9mm`s around.

The Glock 19 was derived from the G 17, which was designed from the outset to function as a military service pistol, firing the 124 Gr. FMJ military loading, which in both US and foreign loads is much hotter ( close to 124 Gr. +P if not +p+ ) then the standard 124 Gr. loads and certainly the cheap 115 Gr. ball, which IMHO are the root cause of many firing issues in the 9mm`s.


I would ditch it but there is no difference with the new Gen 3. They're made the same. They're having the same issues ]

Completely Incorrect, there are significant parts differences, past the recoil spring and cosmetic changes, between the 4`s and "new" Gen 3`s( most of which have been in the pipeline or at distributors for a year + ) therefore not so "new".

I think you have generally made an articulate, well documented and helpful presentation here., and I thank you for that.

SGT Duffman
July 27, 2011, 04:03 PM
I know there are differences in design, but I've taken the stance that the extractor is the problem, and those 2 parts are the same regardless whether you buy a current production gen 3 or gen 4. The recoil spring assembly may also be part of the problem, but I don't know. I think that specific part is getting a lot of press for being a problem child because it's new and easily identifiable by anyone who can field strip the gun. If Glock is going to invest the time, money, and effort into redesigning and fielding it 5 times, maybe it's a bigger contributor than I think it is to the reliability issues. The subcompacts have had that spring setup for years without issues though. So maybe the changes are just to placate the public and show them that things are being done. I don't know that though, just my opinion on the springs.

As far as the ammo, I understand Glock was designed as a service pistol, and for that reason I believe it should function with any commercially produced and available ammunition, which they state themselves. Previous production runs have had absolutely no problem doing this, so why are there issues now? To say only premium self defense rounds or hot loaded ammo is what it is designed for is ridiculous and contrary to what Glock themselves say in their manual. Straight from pg 15 of your manual, "Only use high quality commercially manufactured ammunition, in excellent condition and in the caliber of your pistol. Glock does not recommend the use of unjacketed lead ammunition. The use of reloaded ammunition will void the Glock warranty, due to the unpredictability of the standards (SAMI/NATO) adhered to, since reloads of poor quality ammunition may not meet (SAMI/NATO) specifications, may exceed limits, and therefore may be unsafe." They've worked with all commercial ammo for almost 30 years, why stop now. Sounds to me like it was designed to function with any commercially available ammunition manufactured to SAAMI/NATO specifications, which actually means that +p+ may not be safe to shoot according to Glock, because those rounds often exceed SAAMI pressures (max avg for 9mm is 38,500psi, +p+ are generally around 42,000psi, all of this of course varies by manufacturer). I guess high quality commercial ammunition is open to debate, but I'd say just about anything that's new manufacture, in a brass case, and from a large name manufacturer is quality ammunition from a commercial source.

SGT Duffman
July 29, 2011, 10:02 PM
I'm gonna put about 250 rds of assorted ammo through the 19 this weekend to see if recoil spring assembly 0-4-3 and the new different Glock extractor have fixed the problem. Rounds for the weekend are:

100rds Remington UMC 115gr FMJ
50rds Sellier & Bellot 124gr FMJ
50rds Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ
50rds Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP

I'll keep updating this as things progress along with number and types of rounds fired and what happened.

After this the rounds left will be:

162rds Winchester White Box 115gr FMJ
150rds Remington UMC 115gr FMJ
150rds American Eagle 115gr FMJ
100rds American Eagle 124gr FMJ
50rds Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP

For a total of 862rds, I also have 100 reloads sitting around but I don't want to shoot those until I've gotten at least a grand through this thing, assuming it chews through the 862 other rounds first. Don't want a crappy reload on my parts screwing up the numbers or something.

SGT Duffman
August 1, 2011, 01:40 AM
Well, good news and bad. The good news first. I fired off 350 rounds this afternoon. I shot the first list from the previous post, but I decided last minute to take one box of each of the American Eagle, so the total is:

100rds Remington UMC 115gr FMJ
50rds Sellier & Bellot 124gr FMJ
50rds Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ
50rds Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP
50rds American Eagle 115gr FMJ
50rds American Eagle 124gr FMJ.

The bad news is, the new Glock extractor and recoil spring assembly 0-4-3 didn't fix the sloppy weak ejection. The ejection problems continued across all loads of ammo, so the excuse that it's because I was shooting Winchester White Box is no longer valid, if it ever was. That's 788 rounds now. 438 rounds of WWB 115gr FMJ, 100 rounds of Remington UMC 115gr FMJ, 50 rounds each of American Eagle 115gr FMJ, American Eagle 124gr FMJ, Winchester NATO 124gr FMJ, Winchester "Personal Defense" 147gr JHP, Sellier and Bellot 124gr FMJ. So 7 different kinds of ammo, in 3 different weights, with 2 different recoil spring assemblies and 3 different extractors, and there is no appreciable difference. Recoil and cycling seems smoother with the 0-4-3 RSA, but functioning is the same. So, unless I just have the best luck ever, and 3 out of 3 extractors are bad, I would say the extractor isn't the problem.

Looks like it's time to get a different extractor plunger assembly. Most likely the one made by White Sound Defense to see if that is the culprit. I had 2 consecutive rounds land on my right thumb, and I'm right handed, what's that tell you about the strength and direction of extraction? They JUST barely made it out of the ejection port.....to the left.... Beyond that I'm not sure what to do. If this can't fix these issues it is probably ejector related and there's nothing I can do about that. Someone might be getting a target gun here soon if this doesn't work.

This will be the next try.

http://www.whitesounddefense.com/products/H.R.E.D.-9mm.html

SGT Duffman
August 1, 2011, 06:50 AM
I posted up some pics and videos of some things I noticed too when cleaning the gun. The extractor plunger wear I mentioned last time has gotten worse, and the trigger bar has at some point also cut into a plastic ramp in the rear. That won't allow the trigger to be reset with the gun disassembled but it doesn't seem to affect anything when the gun is assembled. The brass is also still catching quite a beating.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/7-31-11%20Trip/

voyager4520
August 1, 2011, 02:35 PM
Here's something I noticed between my G23 that ejects fine, and my G27 that has erratic ejection and beat up spent casings. The extractor depressor plunger channels in the slides of each seem different. The G23 channel is straight and smooth, while the G27 channel has equidistant gaps where the channel changes diameter, almost like the tooling used to cut the channel was becoming dull when they did my G27 slide.

I first noticed it when cleaning them, I'd strip most of the cotton off of a q-tip and run it through that channel. It ran smooth through the channel of my G23 slide. It hesitated at several points when going through the channel of my G27 slide.

Maybe that has something to do with it.

Edit: I just got done detail strip cleaning the slide of my G27. I tried to get pictures of the extractor depressor plunger channel but I'm a noob with cameras and I couldn't get it to focus properly.

Upon inspecting the extractor depressor plunger, it has the same abnormal wear around the larger end toward the muzzle. My G23 plunger does not have this wear. The EDP channel of the G27 slide looks like it was cut with dull tooling, as does the firing pin channel. Both channels in my G23 slide are smooth.

I also noticed that the firing pin safety had a little abnormal wear, as did the number on the LWD extractor. Apparently LoneWolf put the number in such a place that it rubs against the firing pin safety until that part of the number wears down.

Ben86
August 3, 2011, 12:12 AM
OMG you really got a lemon. My Glock 19 ejects about 3 to 6 feet to the right depending on how hot the load is. My Glocks are also some of the easiest guns on the chambered cartridges. My PM9 scratches them all up, but with Glocks I can barely tell they've been chambered.

Tell Glock they need to take the gun back and not send it back to you until it is fixed. You sound like someone who loves to do things yourself, but you shouldn't have to go through this crap after dropping $500 on a gun. Tell Glock to fix your dang gun.

SGT Duffman
August 3, 2011, 03:48 AM
Voyager,

I detail stripped the 19 and the 21 tonight to look in the extractor plunger channels to see if there were any tooling marks or anything and they both looked the same, so I don't know if that applies in my case, but it was worth looking into. I'm not really sure what could be causing such wear on the ends of the extractor plunger assembly, but the 19 is definitely getting a lot more beat up than the 21 for having pretty comparable round counts now. I don't know if the new extractor plungers are a softer metal or just plated with something or what, but it's much worse for wear. We'll see what the White Sound HRED does.

Ben,

If this different extractor plunger assembly does nothing they most likely will be getting it back. The only other thing I can think to try beyond this is a new ejector, which would mean buying a different trigger mechanism housing, which is like $8. Which I would say is no big deal, but it's not just $8, it's also all of the ammo, time, and effort to go back and retry everything again to see if it's fixed, then if it's not, repeating the whole process again.

Parts wise so far I've got maybe $40 into this thing ($20 LW extractor that didn't help, $20 HRED extractor plunger that's in the mail), if you count ammo it's probably another $250 for the 788 rounds that have thus far gotten me nowhere. I'd like to try these "fixes" incrementally too, so I can try to pinpoint the problem. That way if I figure out what it is I can tell everyone. If I just send it back, no one gets to know what the problem or the solution is. At this point I suspect it will most likely end up being something outside of my control to fix and Glock will be getting it back.

On a side note Glock called me today trying to get my serial number so they could send me the recoil spring assembly I requested. I called them back and told them Mr. Mathis already walked the part through and I don't need it unless there is some version newer than the 0-4-3. I'd also given them my serial number before, I believe the 3rd time they said they were going to send the part. In any case it's nice to know they're taking steps to be more proactive with customer service stuff. I believe Mr. Mathis got on them. I'm not really sure how he knew to call me though unless I had already appeared in the system as having requested the part at a prior date though, which should have meant he'd already have all the information, but I'm not privy to how they log all that data so I can't really say for sure. Either way it's nice to know they're stepping the customer service up a bit over there and taking steps to avoid having people slip through the cracks.

tahco gunworks
August 3, 2011, 11:47 AM
SGT, I just took delivery of a Gen 4 , 19 for my son in law. I took it apart and polished all the parts after he fired it 200 rounds. Nothing at all like your pictures indicated.

Works Flawlessly. On Glock Talk there is guy who took a piece of brass to his face, and once Glock was aware of the issue, they promptly sent him a new pistol.

Sorry you are having this issue, you have remained very professional throughout the ordeal.

SGT Duffman
August 3, 2011, 05:52 PM
Tahco,

I'd like to be able to identify the problem so that if others have it they can fix it, if the fix is something that can be fixed at a user level. I'm sure Glock will take care of it if I send the gun back. When I started trying to do this myself, I didn't expect it to take this long. I was thinking I could just get the parts and install them myself and it'd be fine and running the way it should in a week or so, versus having to send it back and waiting the 6-8 weeks. In retrospect that may have been faster, but then again I did request return shipping instruction and labels over a month ago. I don't know how it happened but I seemed to slip through the cracks at Glock several times. Mr. Mathis seems to have sorted the customer service issues out though. They called me the other day trying to get particulars to send me a replacement recoil spring, which had already been replaced, but I appreciate the effort. I called them today too and didn't have any problems getting in touch with them like I had in the past few months. It rang through straight to the guy I was trying to talk to, and I gave him my information for return instructions to be sent, which I received via email within 15 minutes of talking to him. So I have them when I need them. I'd still like to try this HRED extractor plunger before I ship it off though, just to see if it helps.

SGT Duffman
August 3, 2011, 07:00 PM
I don't know how relevant it is, but I finally dug out the box the gun came in to check the test fire date. The test fire date is from July 2010, so it's 13 months old not 18 like I figured. It seems I've gotten more done in the last year than I thought I had. Too bad we don't have seasons here, I might have guessed closer. Glock also test fires with CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo if anyone's interested, or at least that's what mine was test fired with. WWB is a step up for these things.

Jollymon32
August 3, 2011, 08:23 PM
This is a great thread! Thanks for all your time on this. I was in the market for a new IDPA gun. My G19 Gen 3 has over 5k faultless rounds through it but I am looking for a larger size gun. Naturally I started looking at the G34. Now, there is absolutely no way I will be purchasing a Glock! I'll give the xdm 5.5 a try or look elsewhere. Customer service is extremely important to me in the event something goes wrong with the handgun.

Thanks again for all your great efforts and possibly preventing others from a similar fate!

SGT Duffman
August 3, 2011, 10:21 PM
Glock seems to have sorted out the customer service issues that caused a good portion of my heartache. They've been proactive lately and I have had no trouble contacting them when I've tried, but it was terrible there for a few months. Time will ultimately be the judge, but I've got no complaints from recent interactions with them. That said I still haven't figured out what's wrong with the pistol, and I'm running out of ideas, so it may become their problem.

SGT Duffman
August 5, 2011, 08:14 PM
I got the White Sound Defense HRED extractor plunger assembly yesterday. I installed that today. I also got the Fedex shipping label emailed to me today so that the pistol can be sent back to Glock. The shipping label will expire in the next 14 days so I'm going to try to make it out tomorrow and try the HRED to see if it's changed anything. I also solved the mystery of what has been eating up the stock extractor plunger assembly. I've posted videos of how to install the HRED for anyone interested and videos on the cause of the extractor plunger wear. Link here:

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/Extractor%20Plunger%20Replacement/

voyager4520
August 6, 2011, 02:06 AM
Thank you for that EDP video, now I know what's causing that wear. It seems that's also the cause of something else I noticed, when I swing the extractor through its range of movement while only the extractor and firing pin safety are installed in the slide, the extractor swings freely. But when the slide is completely assembled and I swing the extractor, I can feel some binding or interference.

SGT Duffman
August 7, 2011, 12:54 AM
Well, I got out today and shot the Glock with the new White Sound Defense HRED extractor plunger, with the new Glock extractor and the 0-4-3 recoil spring assembly. I fired 237 rounds today, for a total of 1,025 on the G19. I also fired the Glock 21SF I have to compare it, the 21SF had 100rds of WWB and 40 reloads fired today. The 21 ejects cleanly and to the right every time. The rounds through the Gen 4 G19 were the following:

100rds 115 gr FMJ UMC Value Pack
62rds 115gr Winchester White Box
50rds American Eagle 115gr FMJ
25rds Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP

No joy. At first I thought it was fixed because the first 3 or 4 magazines out of the 19 ran great, it was spitting brass well clear and all to the right. Nothing over the left shoulder nothing bouncing off the slide or hitting me in the head or face, it was great. Then it was not so great. After those first few mags, it went back to it's old self and started trickling brass and hitting me in the head. So I put the old extractor plunger back in for a couple mags just to make sure I'm not crazy, and thankfully, I'm not. Then the HRED went back in, but there was no change, after a strong showing out of the gate things went back to "normal" and the erratic weak ejections continued. Time to clean and box this thing up and give it back to Glock. I guess I should have tried CCI Blazer at some point, because that's what they're going to shoot, but it's too late now.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/HRED/

And no my backstop isn't rocks. That little rocky outcrop basically ends where you see it and there's a massive mound of dirt off either side of it, though I'm sure there are rocks under the dirt somewhere.

deadlyfoo001
August 8, 2011, 09:12 AM
Hey sgt duffman. I have the same exact problem as you. I have tried lwd extractor and lighter recoil spring with no success in fixing the erratic ejections. I noticed the wear you are experiencing on your extractor depressor plunger. Would you think that the wear on it could be causing friction and preventing extractor movement? I'll try polishing the tip

voyager4520
August 8, 2011, 10:16 AM
I just noticed that my G23 EDP has the same wear, but it's no where near as bad. Looking at the extractor from that gun, which was made before Glock started using MIM extractors, the "barrel" or rounded portion of the extractor is slightly shorter than that of the newest extractors. It does still have wear on it from the EDP rubbing against it. I haven't tried the non-LCI extractor yet but its "barrel" is also slightly shorter than Glock's MIM extractors.

Comparing my G27 to my G23 last night I noticed two things which may be causing my particular problems. The EDP channel in the slide of my G27 has a tiny lip just far enough into the channel to catch on the EDP spring. Every time I strip that slide, the EDP is just barely hanging onto the spring, so in effect there's more tension being put on the extractor than there should be during ejection. Also, when looking down through the top of the ejection port comparing the ejectors of both guns, the G23 ejector is angled ever so slightly toward the right, toward the ejection port. The ejector of my G27 is angled ever so slightly in the opposite direction, to the left toward the slide stop.

I could get a new ejector, that's easy enough. And if it's not angled properly I could change the angle much like JBarbaresi on Glocktalk has done. But that lip in the EDP channel is a little more complicated, it's located just forward of where the LCI spring loaded bearing attaches to the spring. I plan to try a non-LCI spring loaded bearing when I try the non-LCI extractor and that may keep the spring from catching on that lip. Otherwise I'll just accept the gun as it is or try some method to smooth that lip down. I have a few other ideas to remedy that but I'll just have to work through them one at a time.

Comparing the machining quality of both slides, it's quite obvious that the firing pin channel and EDP channel of the G27 slide were cut with dull cutters. All of the other areas look fine. Both the firing pin channel and EDP channel of my G23 slide are smooth as glass. The firing pin channel of the G27 slide has spiral gaps about half a millimeter deep into the metal, and the EDP channel has that lip just forward of where an LCI spring loaded bearing would sit, plus you can see the spiraling equidistant gaps in its wall when you shine a light through the other end. For anyone wondering, my G23 prefix is GEA and my G27 prefix is NRR.

deadlyfoo001
August 8, 2011, 10:40 AM
This is my latest revelation.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1346797&page=20

I would assume the amount of wear would depend on how much the gun has been shot. (Shooting would exacerbate it)

SGT Duffman
August 8, 2011, 06:57 PM
Deadly,

I thought it might but the HRED extractor plunger assembly doesn't have the wear and it still has the problem. It did start getting worn, but nowhere nearly as much as the factory Glock extractor plunger did. You can barely see it beginning to wear on the White Sound HRED, so little in fact that thus far I haven't bothered trying to photograph it because I doubt the camera will be able to see it. The Glock factor extractor plunger did seem to wear exponentially though. After the first few hundred rounds it wasn't so bad, then the next few hundred made it quite a bit worse, the few hundred after that were with the White Sound HRED extractor, and it got nowhere nearly as worn down as the Glock one after it's few hundred rounds. That leads me to believe the factory Glock part is either a softer metal or alloy, or that is it coated or plated in some manner. Whichever the case, the factory one experienced much more wear over a few hundred rounds than the HRED did. The first several hundred round on the stock piece were also exclusively Winchester White Box, which some consider a soft load, though I'm not one of them.

As of about 2pm PST today my 19 is headed back to Glock. After 1,025 rounds with 3 different extractors, 2 different extractor plungers, and 2 different recoil spring assemblies I was unable to rectify the problem. It occurred regardless of shooter, elevation, ammunition brand, weight, power, or bullet type. We'll see how long Glock has it and what they do to fix it.

SGT Duffman
August 10, 2011, 05:53 AM
Just watched Hickok45 work his way through the Glock G19 generations and when he got to Gen 4 the ejection went to hell. (~12:00) I'm starting to wonder if they're supposed to do that. The extraction looks like a popcorn popper.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45

Glock should have my 19 by the end of the day tomorrow.

SGT Duffman
August 10, 2011, 06:40 PM
Glock received the pistol today at 1019am EST.

Strykervet
August 10, 2011, 07:09 PM
I love my Glocks, but sad to say, it looks like they are going downhill fast. That gen. 4 is turning out to be huge failure and the ambi mag release is junk too. Problem is they didn't test this stuff to failure before they released it. Or they did but didn't care. I'm losing my confidence in them as well, after years of being called a "Glock Guy". All of my older Glocks are great, never had a problem. Until I got an SF frame with an ambi release. I put a post up here just today discussing my ordeal.

I got the problem resolved through Glock rather quickly. I did have to know to ask for them to cover the shipping, because they were more than glad to let me take care of it. If you want matching SN, you have to ask for that too. If you want a different mag release, again, you have to ask for it, because they will also just swap out old junk for new junk. They WILL NOT offer to do anything. It is all on you. But once you tell them what to do, because that is how the phone call really played out, it only took a few weeks to get a new frame back. Not as fast as Smith --I sent them a revolver on Monday and got it back on Friday!

My big beef with them right now is that they are willing to release stuff from R&D directly to production. No test mules, no test to failure, and it would seem with some of it, no testing at all! I'm glad I have my older Glocks, the ones that earned the reputation. I'm still 100% confident in those, just not the ambi release or the gen. 4 stuff.

I too had the phone problems. Don't let them put you on hold once you get past the operator. Make them give you a shipping tag, and make sure you tell them exactly what you want. Chances are you'll get it. They are pretty good about doing the right thing, but they have to be asked or told to do it --they won't offer to do it.

Strykervet
August 10, 2011, 07:13 PM
I hope you didn't send the pistol back with YOUR parts in it... By your parts I mean the aftermarket stuff. Glock will only return aftermarket sights, not other parts. They'll even change out parts that you polished, they only return stock pistols. I don't know if they will throw them in the box or not, if they do you probably have to instruct them like everything else. If you want matching SN, you better call and tell them that too.

They better fix this or I'm done getting new Glocks. I'll get that 3rd gen. G24 and be done with it.

SGT Duffman
August 10, 2011, 08:57 PM
Nope I took everything out and made them pay for shipping. I don't know how it'll work for me to get it back. They better call and ask if it's something I have to pick up from an FFL, because I absolutely will not work with the FFL closest to me. They're the biggest scumbags I've ever met and charge 3 times what any other FFL does. If you don't give them business they won't buzz you out either. The fact you have to be buzzed in and out I guess also indicates something about their business.

I did ship the Glock back with the 0-4-3 recoil spring and the "newer" Glock extractor. I seriously considered not giving those back too after what it took to get them, but I figured it would be best if they had it set up as I'm having problems with. If I sent it back with all the old stuff in it they would probably just change it out to what I already had and send it back. Hopefully by having the newest stuff in it and having it still not working they'll take whatever additional steps are required. The old beat up extractor plunger went back in, because the HRED is aftermarket. If I could, I would have sent it back without sights on it just in case. I also took video of the serial number and me boxing it up with the parts listed below just in case.

I've heard horror stories about people sending guns back, then getting it returned without accessories or parts, etc. That's any manufacturer, not just Glock. I forgot to send them some chewed up brass to see if they could do anything about that. I didn't send them any spare mags either. They got the case it came in, the pistol with Trijicons installed, 1 magazine, and the paperwork they need and that's all they got. I don't know what they're going to do with it, fix it or replace it, and I don't really care.

I do know that if it comes back doing the same thing it will become someone else's target gun. All I want them to do is fix the gun so that it ejects cleanly and consistently, how they do it, I don't care. I'm gonna be super bummed out if it's not fixed. I got a bunch of spare mags and holsters and stuff that all become useless without a G19. It's going to be a massive financial loss. Loss in the value of a substandard pistol, loss in mags, holster, ammo, targets, parts, and time. Probably over a grand down the toilet. I guess I should wait and see how this turns out, then get all bent out of shape if necessary haha.

F-111 John
August 11, 2011, 06:43 AM
I don't know how it'll work for me to get it back.
Federal law says you can send the gun directly to Glock for repair, and they can send it directly back to you, no FFL transfer required.

Ben86
August 11, 2011, 08:47 AM
They're the biggest scumbags I've ever met and charge 3 times what any other FFL does. If you don't give them business they won't buzz you out either. The fact you have to be buzzed in and out I guess also indicates something about their business.

Won't buzz you out if you don't buy something? That sounds like kidnapping to me. If they tried that with me they would either get a busted door or a visit from the police. That's nuts.

I agree that from the videos I've seen of Gen4 glocks the ejection is pretty random. All of my Gen 3s (G17, 19 and 26) eject brass neatly 3-6 feet from me to the right depending on the load.

SGT Duffman
August 11, 2011, 11:01 AM
Ya, I do not want to deal with those people. I guess they're too busy screwing over people willing to pay $100 over MSRP to buzz you out.

I hope this fixes it. In spite of all this I'm still torn about Gen 3's. Do I just ditch Gen 4 or Glock all together. Gen 3 would allow me to save some of the money I'll otherwise lose in parts and accessories if I ditch all together, but it'd have to be NAx-xxx serial or prior production Gen 3 or I wouldn't touch it. I'm not really sure I want to touch Glock at all after this, but I don't really want to eat the loss either. Other options I guess would be Sig P229 or P250C or Hk P30. With the P229 or P30 being quite a bit more money, and larger and heavier than a 19, or the P250 being very slightly larger/heavier but also basically new and unproven. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

deadlyfoo001
August 12, 2011, 05:29 PM
I asked them if they could pay to ship it to them and they said no. I guess some people over there are aholes, but whatever. I'll prob end up selling it. Since it was overnighted, you should call soon to check the status. Even though they say 6-8 weeks, if you call, someone might look at it sooner.

SGT Duffman
August 12, 2011, 08:21 PM
I was thinking about calling Mr. Mathis again just to let him know that the extractor and recoil spring assembly hadn't fixed the problem and that the pistol had been sent back. For selfish reasons I'd want to get him involved so it would come back sooner but at the same time I'm curious to see how customer service handles it now that he chewed some ass. I do think their return forms are inadequate for stating the problem though. It's all the pertinent contact information, then a short little like 4 or 5 line section you can write in the problems/services you'd like taken care of. It was tricky trying to fit the history and issues in the small space provided, to the point where the problems of damaging brass got left out completely. While I'd rather not that have been the case, I'm more concerned with the ejection issues.

On a side note I also received another 0-4-3 recoil spring assembly in the mail today. The receipt says it was ordered on 7/11/2011 but I didn't talk to Glock that day. It must be from 7/8/11 when I talked to Dan in customer service, which is still a bit odd. They called me on 8/3/11 to get the serial number so they could figure out what part to send me and I told them I didn't need it because Mr. Mathis had already walked the part through. So I guess this is the part I ordered on July 8, that entered their system on July 11, but they couldn't send on August 3 because they didn't have the serial number and I told them I didn't need anymore? Maybe? I don't really know why this part showed up, but it does prove what I've been saying the last few weeks since I talked to Mr. Mathis. Whatever he did seems to have made them quite a bit more proactive and more responsive. I haven't had problems talking to someone over there since I talked to him either. No more of that being on hold for a half hour then getting hung up on business. I might try calling them tomorrow just to see that they've gotten the gun with everything I sent and to let them know about the brass being damaged too.

SGT Duffman
August 13, 2011, 01:39 AM
Realized it's Friday, there won't be anyone there tomorrow.

SGT Duffman
August 17, 2011, 04:37 PM
Called Glock today at about 330pm their time and talked to the warranty work people for about 10 minutes and told them about the brass. They said it was normal for the pistol to damage the brass a bit and said a lot of times it will happen on the rim and 3/4 the way down. I told him the damage was to the case mouth not the rim and to please make a note of it for the pistol because I wasn't able to annotate it on the return paperwork when I ran out of space. He said they'd note it and put a message with the pistol. I had no trouble getting in touch with anyone this time either. Whatever was changed over there customer service wise, is working.

Ben86
August 17, 2011, 07:18 PM
Whatever was changed over there customer service wise, is working.

See, one man can make a difference. ;) I'd be really surprised if they don't take care of you.

deadlyfoo001
August 18, 2011, 09:17 AM
If they can't explain why your glock is doing something, they will probably say its normal. I don't thing glock would be willing to replace every defective pistol. Too much time and money. Hopefully they don't send it back saying there is nothing wrong with it.

SGT Duffman
August 23, 2011, 08:26 PM
I'm hoping that too. We'll see what they do, I'll reserve judgment until then. If it does come back doing the same thing they'll be getting it back and they can keep it, at that point, I'll be done with Gen 4 Glocks. Maybe I can talk them into sending me the oldest gen 3 19 in their inventory or something. All that will have to wait until the Gen 4 comes back though so I can see what the deal is.

SGT Duffman
September 2, 2011, 04:35 PM
Called Glock today at 113 PST (413pm EST) to check on the pistol and see if it's been looked at yet. I was told that it had been looked at and they did find a problem. The man I spoke with read off the notes in the system and said it had been transferred to the warranty manager, who will be out of the office until Tuesday. The guy I talked with didn't know exactly what having it transferred to the warranty manager meant and didn't want to speculate and I don't blame him. He said the Austrians had just visited the plant and may have looked at the gun, in any case it appears they were able to reproduce the problem, or it would have been no faults noted and sent back instead of being sent to the warranty manager. So until I call sometime next week I won't know exactly what they found or what they're going to do about it. I asked the guy I talked to if there was some way to note in the system that if this does result in the pistol being replaced could they NOT send it to the FFL nearest to me, he said I'd have to talk to the warranty manager about that. I guess that's all until next week.

voyager4520
September 2, 2011, 06:59 PM
That's very interesting that the guys from Austria may have looked at your gun. They probably switched parts that were known to work properly until they could isolate the exact parts on your gun that were causing the problem.

Thanks for the update.

If it does get replaced, in most states they can send it straight to your house with adult(21+) signature required. I think in CA, IL, NJ, and NY it has to be sent to an FFL.

SGT Duffman
September 2, 2011, 10:01 PM
I hope they did look at it and know how to fix it, but at this point it's still speculation to say certainly one way or the other that the Austrians have seen it. The guy said they were around though and may have taken a look at it, so I can hope. I still have no idea if they've managed to fix the gun either, it could end up being replaced because there is no fix, it could end up being a simple fix. The only thing I can definitively say at this point is the problem has been confirmed and reproduced by Glock and that something is being done about it. Hopefully they are able to isolate a cause and institute a solution, and the easier the solution, the better. Hopefully I'll know more soon.

voyager4520
September 3, 2011, 07:23 AM
I looked further at my spent casings from my G27 which has erratic ejection and noticed something I hadn't before. With my G23 casings, the extractor and ejector markings are very consistent relative to the firing pin mark. With my G27 casings this is not so. The G27 casings appear to turn counterclockwise when viewing the headstamp some time after the round has fired and the slide begins rearward movement and before the time that the ejector first contacts the casing. The ejector and extractor markings are also very inconsistent. On some, the ejector actually drags across the edge of the primer. On others the extractor is barely engaging the rim and the ejector marking is much higher, so the casing is actually dropping lower in the gun and the only thing that stops it is the magazine.

G23 consistent ejection, spent casing drawing: http://tinypic.com/r/34gkrj4/7
G27 erratic ejection, spent casing drawing: http://tinypic.com/r/1zdtdkw/7

Also I forgot to include in the G27 drawing, the scrape/dent at the case mouth appears at about the 4 o'clock position as would be seen in the picture.

My conclusion is that in my G27 which has erratic ejection, the extractor is not maintaining consistent tension on the rim of the spent casing. I won't speculate as to the reason.

SGT Duffman
September 6, 2011, 02:50 PM
Called Glock today at 1032 PST (132 EST) and talked to the guy who test fired my gun. He said they were able to reproduce the problem I described across all ammunitions, so he replaced the ejector, which has a different profile and is not as pointed as the original, so it has more contact area. I also mentioned the extractor plunger getting beat up and the case mouths being smashed in and scraped around the circumference. He said the wear on the extractor plunger can happen but the wear on mine was excessive for the amount of rounds fired and is going to replace that too. While I was explaining what happened to the brass he took a look at the slide and said he could see a lot of brass on the ejection port, but he'd have to take a look at some of the brass fired from the gun to see what I'm talking about. That may well be fixed by the new ejector though. He's put some bullets through it and thinks it has been fixed, but he still needs to run some different weight bullets through it to make sure that the ejector was the issue, then if it's fixed, they should be sending it back within a week or so.

REAPER4206969
September 6, 2011, 03:41 PM
GLOCK, Inc. U.S.A.

GLOCK, Inc. P.O. Box 369
Smyrna, Georgia 30081 U.S.A.Fax. (770) 433-8719
Tel. (770) 432-1202

Dear GLOCK Armorer:

On September 6, 2011, GLOCK Inc. will begin voluntarily exchanging the recoil spring assembly (RSA) on its new Gen4 pistols shipped since 2009 GLOCKís product development team has modified various elements of the RSA to ensure each pistolís performance meets the companyís demanding standards.

With several variations of the RSA in the market today, GLOCKís goal with this voluntary exchange is to standardize the RSA to gain the best possible performance in each pistol.

Armorers should note that Gen4 G26 and G27 models will not require a modified recoil spring.
The new RSAís all have unique markings on the base of the part. The enclosed chart is designed to help you readily identify the correct RSA for your pistol.

Unless a directive is mandated by your agency or your store, the replacement of the Gen4 pistolís RSA can be performed as part of the regular field-strip process. Agencies or Consumerís wishing to participate in the exchange program at no charge are urged to call 1-877-745-8523 to order their new RSA.

For more information on the details of the exchange program, visit www.TEAMGLOCK.com.


Word is that you can simply E-Mail them this information:


RSATEAM@glock.US

Serial #
Model
Name
Physical Address
Telephone

SGT Duffman
September 6, 2011, 04:17 PM
Good for people to know, but the updated RSA they sent me had no effect on the problem I was having. At this point it looks like the ejector was the guilty party. I had replaced the original "03" RSA with the "043" RSA Glock sent me, as well as trying the original, a Lone Wolf, and an updated Glock extractor, and 2 different extractor plunger assemblies (the original and White Sound HRED) with no results. The problem occurred regardless of shooter or ammunition brand, type, or weight. It seems that it is all getting fixed and worked out though. Hopefully I'll have the gun back within the next week or two and I'll be able to try again.

SGT Duffman
September 7, 2011, 04:41 PM
Glock's warranty dept manager called me today at 125 PST (425 EST) to tell me he tried the pistol today with about 240rds of assorted ammo and he's confident the problem has been resolved by replacing the ejector. He shot some 115gr Blazer, 124gr +p hardball, and some 147gr and didn't have any of the erratic ejections to the front or left, everything kicked out to the right, with one brushing off his right elbow. One is better than 3/4 of the magazine. None in the face, none to the left, none to the front. He's going to try to get it dropped with Fedex in time to get it back before this weekend. So hopefully I'll get it in time to maybe go shooting this weekend. I've only got 100rds of WWB 115gr FMJ, 50rds American Eagle 124gr FMJ, 50rds American Eagle 115gr FMJ, 50rds Remington UMC Value Pack 115gr FMJ, and 25rds of Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP left. So as soon as I can after I get the gun I'll try to make it out and try out the fix. It may not happen this weekend though, we'll see when I get it back and when I can make it out.

SGT Duffman
September 9, 2011, 02:34 PM
Got the pistol back today at 1120 PST. They shipped it back pretty fast. I think it was overnighted. It did come back missing the one magazine I sent it in with, but that's why I only sent one. I called Glock and they said they're sending a replacement, it should be here in 5-10 business days. I still haven't had any difficulty contacting people at Glock since my talk with Mr. Mathis. I should be able to get out and try the gun within the next week, but I don't know if I'll be able to do it this weekend.

voyager4520
September 9, 2011, 03:11 PM
Can you see any noticeable difference in the profile of the ejector from what it looked like previously?

SGT Duffman
September 9, 2011, 07:13 PM
The new ejector has a radically different profile from the old one. The old on was very pointed, and bent slightly towards the center line of the pistol. The new one is very blunted on the front and is twisted as well as slightly bent towards the center. I uploaded some pics and a real quick video. I also threw two of the older pics in there for comparison because Glock threw away the old one by the time I asked about it.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/Ejector%20Fix/

voyager4520
September 9, 2011, 08:13 PM
Thanks for the update. I wonder if Glock has redesigned the 9mm ejector, if they modified one specifically for your pistol, or if that's an older design 9mm ejector.

SGT Duffman
September 9, 2011, 08:40 PM
Looks like a redesign to me. The Gen 2 had one very similar if not the same as the "old" one on the Gen 4, so I don't think it's an old design. This "new" one does not appear to have been ground or modified in any way, you can still kind of see the casting marks on the front of it in one of the pictures. I don't think it has been done specifically for me for the same reasons. That would be a hell of an expense to cast 1 part for 1 person.

I think this is their fix for the Gen 4 19s with ejection/extraction issues. They've redesigned every other part involved in ejection and extraction from the looks of it. They've redone the RSA's 5 times, and the new extractor was different than the one it came with, and now the ejectors are also different. The extractor depressor plunger change didn't effect anything. If there's still a problem they're going to be in a world of hurt. They've done about all the parts replacement they can do as far as ejection/extraction, it starts being a matter of slide and frame after that.

voyager4520
September 9, 2011, 08:57 PM
Speaking of the LWD extractors, I believe LoneWolf may actually be confused as to which extractor is which between 9mm and .40. The 9mm extractor is supposed to have a parallel hook like your Glock-made 9mm extractors. The .40 extractor is supposed to have a tilted 5 degree hook like your LoneWolf extractor. I looked at my LoneWolf .40 extractor and it has a parallel hook, my Glock-made .40 extractors have a tilted 5 degree hook like your LoneWolf extractor.

Yours is marked "4" as the LoneWolf website says the 9mm extractor should be(part#1895). Mine is marked "3", as their website says the .40 extractor should be(part#1899).

I've emailed LoneWolf's Armorer email address about this and I'm waiting for a response.

See this diagram from an Armorer's Manual: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14630188&postcount=16

From the newest Armorer's Manual, apparently the 10mm now use the 5 degree hook as well, leaving only .380 and 9mm with the parallel hook.

SGT Duffman
September 10, 2011, 12:38 AM
Ya but the part number and code stamped on the part may not be synonymous. I think the numbers stamped on the Glock extractors are vendor codes not necessarily part numbers. That's the risk you take with aftermarket parts I guess, and why I'm hesitant to have aftermarket parts in a concealed carry gun. The average person would have no way to tell if that is a stock part or not, even a Glock aficionado probably wouldn't know the difference, but you better believe the defense's expert firearms witness will. Too much liability for me. It may not even be the right part for the gun.

SGT Duffman
September 24, 2011, 02:54 AM
Should be able to finally get out and test fire the Glock tomorrow. The replacement magazine Glock said they would send on the 9th still has not arrived though. They said 5-10 business days, today was the 11th day, so I dunno. I still have 4 magazines to use, but it would be disappointing to find I've slipped through the cracks again. I'll give that a few more days before I call them. Hopefully I'll have some good news after this test fire.

voyager4520
September 24, 2011, 03:18 AM
Another person tried the new ejector and said it worked for him: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1369607 (post #66 is his update)

I'm hoping they'll make a similar ejector for .40. A guy with a Gen3 G19 sent his gun in and was told he'd get the new ejector. He called back and the tech he spoke to that time said that the new ejector was only for Gen4. There's no reason the new ejector couldn't be used in a Gen3, so either that's an odd policy or a misinformed tech.

Strykervet
September 24, 2011, 03:24 AM
Wow, I just stumbled across this... I'm up here in WA too. I got a G20SF with the ambi mag release, boy was that junk. Mags fell out, wouldn't seat, slide wouldn't lock back, then the parts actually fell out of the pistol. All this before I even got it to the range, I had just assembled the pistol and read about this problem online about full mags and tried it out --sure enough, junk. I sent it back and they replaced it with a regular frame. I had to ask them for a fed ex account number though, they were more than willing to let me pay for sending it back for them to fix their design flaws.

Glock used to have a real good reputation. They are still sliding by on it, but they are losing it rapidly. People that don't own one think they are still magnificently reliable (and the old ones are) but people that own the old ones and the new ones can see the difference, these are the customers you'd think they'd care about, but these are the ones they are burning. Seems these days they just take stuff from R&D and take it right to the manufacturing floor.

And I don't care about angering the fanboys. I have five Glocks, and I can say this G20SF will be my last and I consider myself lucky that I was able to get it fixed, working, and reliable. Just not worth the hassle dealing with them now, taking the chance, maybe it works maybe it doesn't, them not owning up to it or taking responsibility. Sure they'll fix it, but they'll also sell you junk and if you are fine with it or don't figure it out, they don't care.

My next tupperware will be FN, HK or something, if I ever get another Glock it will be a gen3 or older, I'd like a G24, but whatever it is it won't be their new stuff.

I hope you get everything worked out. I only had to deal with the junk ambi mag release, the rest of the G20SF was like the old one, and my slide was a 3rd gen. I've heard folks with the gen4 9mm are having the hardest times. Besides the spring, the extractor is MIM now and some are out of spec and those don't work. Wow.

I'm beginning to think they never deserved the reputation they have, engineering-wise, that maybe they just got lucky and hit the jackpot with a good original design. Because it seems everything they do to improve on it now just makes it worse.

I know what you mean about not feeling comfortable with the reliability of that weapon. I felt, and feel, the same way. I still like my Glocks, and I'm wearing one right now and my wife carries one too, but I won't be getting any new ones.

SGT Duffman
September 24, 2011, 08:56 PM
Well I finally got out and shot the Glock with the "new" ejector in it. The ejector seems to have fixed the ejection problem. I didn't get hit in the head or the face the entire time, and nothing went forward or left. I fired 100rds of WWB 115gr FMJ, 50 rds of American Eagle 115gr FMJ, 50 rds of American Eagle 124gr FMJ, 50rds of UMC Value Pack 115gr FMJ, 25rds of Winchester "Personal Protection" 147gr JHP, and 25 reloads of 4.3gr of Win 231, CCI Small pistol primer, Remington 115gr FMJ, OAL 1.100". So a total of 300 rds, maybe half a dozen of which sent the casing over my head, most of which seemed to be American Eagle 115gr. I have no idea why, but none of them hit me. Also with the 115gr American Eagle some (perhaps a dozen) seemed to eject more weakly than the other rounds, going maybe a foot out of the ejection port, but still to the rear right. Overall though I would say the problem is fixed. Though I can't account for why a few of the rounds were oddballs, it's definitely much much better than it was.

I also took the chronograph for the WWB haters. It was the hottest round out of all that were fired (avg 1140fps). Though the American Eagle 115gr was the most consistent (spread of 6fps, avg 1060fps), it was also the most "troublesome". The Winchester "Personal Protection" was the slowest and least consistent, which figures I guess because it was the heaviest round (avg 921fps, spread of 51fps).

The last 3 magazines I shot were mixed bags. One staggered WWB, PP, WWB, PP and so on, another that was basically the same but started on PP instead then WWB, PP, WWB, PP and so on. The other was leftovers of UMC, AE 115, and AE 124, staggered in that order, 1 of each type, all 3 types, 5 times for the 15 rds in the magazine.

The ejection was consistent enough that I was able to clean up brass by laying down a tarp to catch it. I posted some pictures, but there isn't really much to see from this trip. Now all I have to do is get my magazine back from Glock. That's why you only send in a bare minimum. I sent the pistol with the trijicons, which I would have removed if I had a sight puller, the case, the paperwork they needed, and 1 magazine. I got the pistol back in a different case with no magazine and they kept the paperwork they needed which is expected. That goes for any manufacturer, don't send anything extra.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/9-24-11/

SGT Duffman
September 24, 2011, 10:30 PM
Forgot to mention most of the case damage has also stopped. It still happens on some cases, but it is no longer the majority of the cases, and what does happen is significantly less than before. The scratched area is about 1/4 the size it used to be, and it no longer smashes in the case mouth when it does happen. If I had to guess I would say maybe 10% of the cases are being damaged now as opposed to the 90% before, and the damage is roughly 75% less severe with no deformation of the case mouth.

SGT Duffman
September 24, 2011, 10:53 PM
Added pictures of the brass and a comparison to the same album I linked to before. It should be the same link, just in case its not:

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/9-24-11/

Ben86
September 25, 2011, 12:32 AM
Glad to hear it worked out for you. Who knows, maybe you actually helped the R&D department figure something new out about the Gen4.

Now all I have to do is get my magazine back from Glock. That's why you only send in a bare minimum. I sent the pistol with the trijicons, which I would have removed if I had a sight puller, the case, the paperwork they needed, and 1 magazine. I got the pistol back in a different case with no magazine and they kept the paperwork they needed which is expected. That goes for any manufacturer, don't send anything extra.

So true. I sent an A1 AR-15 upper to Bushmaster, minus the bolt assembly, to have the A3 receiver I sent with it put on. They returned the upper to me with the A3 properly put on, but without the A1 receiver they took off. I hope they get it worked out because I was planning on selling it. I'm glad I didn't send the bolt assembly otherwise I might not have got that back. :rolleyes:

SGT Duffman
September 25, 2011, 01:50 AM
I almost didn't send them a magazine either. They got plenty of them. On the off chance it was somehow part of the problem though I decided to go ahead and send them one, and I don't regret doing it. I do wish that I had gotten it back though. After having to deal with everything else, then having them seemingly turn around their customer service problems, it would be a shame to have slipped through the cracks again. I still do believe they have become a lot more responsive, and since talking with Mr. Mathis they have been much better about answering the phones and responding to customer questions and requests. Things seemed to be going fairly well, and from all appearances it does seem that they've pinpointed the cause of erratic ejections in the Gen 4 G19. Hopefully the magazine will show up in the mail sometime by Wednesday or so, if not I'll be calling them on Thursday to see what happened. It's happened before where I've had parts ordered and I just never made it into the computer or whatever. I'm hoping that hasn't happened again. I really do want to give them every chance to get right because I like them as a company, but they aren't making it easy.

SGT Duffman
September 29, 2011, 11:49 PM
The replacement magazine showed up today. So I think I can say things are finally how they should be. It took a while, but things seem fixed finally. The gun, from last weekend anyways, functioned as it should, and I have all my magazines again. However, I'm still not sure if I will be keeping this gun after all the hassle. Glock seems to have turned their customer service around as of late, but for some it might be too little too late. Personally I'm still unsure about what to do with them. I like them as a company politically, and their customer service seems fixed, but after all of this I'm still conflicted about giving them any of my money for a long while, if ever again. The Gen 4 seems like it was released to market without any R&D, like it was rushed and just thrown together. Why make so many mechanical changes to a design that was mechanically sound? It certainly wasn't necessary just to facilitate interchangeable back straps, so why? They've ruined their reputation and the reputation of the Glock 19. The only way I'm getting a "new" Glock, is if it comes from a warehouse somewhere with a serial number prior to the MUM prefix, meaning manufactured before 2009. I can't speak to current production models of either Gen 3 or Gen 4, because I don't have anything newer than the Gen 4 mentioned through out this post, and I likely won't for a long, long time. It's going to take a long time and a lot of rounds fired by a lot of people who aren't me to restore my faith in new Glocks. Smith and Wesson can tell you how long my memory works.

Ben86
September 30, 2011, 04:57 PM
I wouldn't loose all faith in them. This sort of stuff happens with all brands. The important thing is they made it right. Maybe the process could be smoother, but in the end you got a fixed gun and your magazine back. I'd forgive them. There are still plenty of people that got perfectly good Gen 4 glocks. I wouldn't write the whole product off just because of one bad experience. They are still working the bugs out IMO.

Or, you could join the dark side with me, forgive S&W and get an M&P pistol. :evil:

SGT Duffman
October 1, 2011, 12:42 AM
I want to believe that they have worked the kinks out finally, but I don't like the idea that they used the market to do it. I would also like to think that the current production Gen 3 works like older production Gen 3 guns, but I don't know. The extractor Glock sent me for the Gen 4 doesn't seem like the MIM part it initially came with, so I hope that's what they use now on all the guns. If so, I would think that the current Gen 3 is every bit the same as any previous Gen 3, but without tearing one apart, I don't know that.

In any case the problems I've had with Glock are still the lesser evil between them and S&W. The whole thing has still left a sour taste in my mouth. Glock seems to have worked out their CS issues, but what happened shouldn't have happened in the first place. Slipping through the cracks once or something I could understand. Slipping through the crack 4 times for parts and 3 times for return instruction seems a bit much. Some guy forgetting to put an order in the system or something once is no big deal, having it happen time and time again, and not being able to contact CS about it is a serious problem, and though it seems to have been fixed, I'm still pissed about it. It wasn't really any one thing that turned me sour on them because I know mistakes can happen, it was the frequency of mistakes, and how widespread they were. I didn't have problems with just the parts department, I didn't have problems just with being able to contact them, I didn't have problems just with warranty services, I had problems everywhere I went, every time I dealt with them, and almost regardless of who I dealt with, with very few exceptions. It took their VP stepping in to get things done. That's something he should never have to do, but I'm glad he did it. I do think he made some serious changes to their customer service too, but like I said it may have been too little too late. Who knows where I'd be had he not stumbled across this forum. It was only by dumb luck that I managed to get my problem fixed. Ultimately it's going to take Glock some time to earn back my respect or my business. CS wise they seem to be working on it, but it's not there yet. I used to joke with friends about Glock sitting on their ass never making any changes, not making any progress with designs and so forth, but the changes with Gen 4 are not what I had in mind. The changes they did make to the texture and grip don't seem to warrant the engineering and mechanical changes that were made. I guess it's true, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

S&W has almost no chance of earning my business. If they were to clean house management wise, give credit for the designs they steal, and apologize to the American citizens for ****ing over their Constitutional rights I may consider it, but since I don't think that'll ever happen their odds are slim. There are things in their line I like, but that usually means I could just get that product from the company they stole it from.

jackpinesavages
October 1, 2011, 07:50 AM
No time to read this entire diatribe of several pages.

Bizzare: We have several Glocks in .40 and .45, my agency gives us G19s for duty and I have a lone G17 as well. As long as I clean the pistols as directed in the Owner's Manual there are no problems. There's been no problems when I DONT clean the weapons either. I was no fan when we had to run G17s in our LE Academy, but they grew on me. Then I became a Glock Armorer through their LE program. Top notch Instructor and learning opportunities. Excellent support and programs all around. I am NOT a salesman-if I had problems I would be the first to beeotch.

Smith And Wesson: I have had several M&Ps and a couple Gen 3 10mms. S&W CS sent me mailer labels to return pistols for warranty work AND replaced worn out parts as they saw fit. All I had to do was take the packages to, and retrieve them from, a UPS Shipping hub. Other than the packaging time and my drive time the work was done for "free" so to speak, and with the Gen 3s I wasn't even the original factory purchaser!

I love the S&Ws and the Glocks for different reasons, but similar to my affection for the Caspian, Para, and STI 1911s we have-they're just plain fun. If you sincerely believe you cannot trust Glock OR S&W, you're in some deep water.

texagun
October 1, 2011, 01:30 PM
I just read the entire 8 pages of your post. You have a lot more patience than I would have had. Glad you finally got it fixed but your experience has turned me OFF to buying any currently manufactured Glocks. Thankfully, all of my Glocks are several years old and have been trouble free. In your situation, I would have asked for a new gun. I'm wondering why you never did that? And thanks for sharing your experiences. We can all be better educated by it.

SGT Duffman
October 2, 2011, 02:13 AM
It's not that I don't trust S&W, I just refuse to give them my money. It's also not that I don't trust Glock, but I don't trust my Gen 4, and until I see otherwise, I don't trust their current production guns. The older Glock 21 I have functions perfectly and it always has, but it's a bit on the large side for IWB carry, so I bought the Gen 4 19.

Texagun, I didn't ask for a new gun because I didn't think I would get one. Even if I did get one, it may have well had the same issues. Seems to me they just figured out the fix. If they knew what the fix was months ago, you'd think they would of said something along the lines of "other people are having similar problems, we've found that replacing the ejector fixes it, here are return instructions" instead of doing R&D and remaking the extractors, recoil spring assemblies, etc. several times and shipping those to everyone knowing it wouldn't fix anything. I'm hoping that's the case anyways. I don't see why they would know how to fix it, then not do it or not tell you how. Makes me wish I'd gotten a 19 before Gen 4's came out. Oh well, until I can get my hands on a DeLorean, an eccentric professor, and some Libyan terrorists there's no way to change that, so live and learn.

9mmHolePunch
October 11, 2011, 07:33 AM
Duffman,

I've been following your struggle with Glock and your G19 and want to thank you for keeping such a good record so the rest of us know what is going on. I'm glad that you finally have the G19 in a condition that is usable. I know that you went through recoil springs, extractors, you noted problems with the extractor plunger and now a new "improved" ejector.

Are you now in a position to examine all of this and conclude what you think was the real fix? Was it the ejector or do you think it was all of the changes together? Have you shot the G19 enough to look at all those parts and draw any conclusions? Is the extractor plunger showing additional wear since the last time you looked at it? Does the extractor fall out as easily as it should?

I would be very interested to know your conclusions once you feel you have had enough time with the G19 and can look objectively at it. Also, what is the current status of the parts (recoil spring #, ejector #, extractor)?

Thanks again for sharing.

voyager4520
October 11, 2011, 01:57 PM
I compared my Gen3 G23 which has consistent ejection and my Gen3 G27 which has erratic ejection and I think I know the cause of most of the ejection problems with recent production Glocks. Yes, some are attributed to out-of-spec extractors and previous Gen4 guide rod versions, but this is different.

I took a spent casing with the primer punched out so I could see how the extractor holds the rim in each of my slides. I slid the rim under the extractor in the G23 slide. I then took the extractor out of that slide and put it into my G27 slide and used the same spent casing to do the same test. In my G27 slide there's about 1mm extra space between the breech face and extractor claw for the rim of the casing to slide forward and rearward between. So what's happening is that the extractor is not holding the spent casing to the breech face as it should, and the spent casing is falling down nearly or completely to the level of the top round in the magazine or the magazine feed lips. Because the bottom of the extractor claw is still forward of the rim ejection still occurs, but the ejector is hitting much higher on the spent casing and because the casing is sitting so low it pivots right and smacks into the slide case mouth first, then bounces around in the ejection port any number of ways before finally leaving the ejection port. While I've never experienced a malfunction, that could contribute to failures to eject that some people are experiencing.

The problem is that the slide isn't cut correctly. The cut-out in the slide for the extractor is too far forward toward the muzzle, so the extractor isn't holding the casing to the breech face. I think it's a quality control problem in how the slides are cut.

The new ejector has a rearward tilt to raise the case mouth earlier during ejection to help it clear the ejection port better, plus the ejector is taller top to bottom so no matter how far down the casing falls the ejector will still act on it in the same fashion.

9mmHolePunch
October 13, 2011, 07:33 AM
Since I'm in the market for a G19 it will be interesting to see how fast the new recoil spring, extractor and ejector show up in factory shipped units. I don't really want to pick one up now just to spend time and effort sending it back to get fixed. Perhaps by January most of the old stock will get flushed out of the distribution channels.

voyager4520
October 13, 2011, 12:13 PM
Since I'm in the market for a G19 it will be interesting to see how fast the new recoil spring, extractor and ejector show up in factory shipped units. I don't really want to pick one up now just to spend time and effort sending it back to get fixed. Perhaps by January most of the old stock will get flushed out of the distribution channels.
I plan to wait for the new ejectors to show up in new stock as well. I want to buy a Gen4 G23 but I'm going to wait until they come with the new ejector. If they have the new ejector, it's guaranteed that they'll have the "dot" connector and latest guide rod assembly as well.

SGT Duffman
October 14, 2011, 09:57 PM
9mmHolePunch,

I didn’t have a chance to try the ejectors side by side because the Glock techs threw away the “old” one that the pistol came with. However, prior to that the recoil spring assembly was changed from the 0-3 assembly I bought it with, to the 0-4-3 assembly Glock VP sent me. That had no discernible effect on the functioning of the gun. The extractor was also changed from the original MIM Glock extractor to a Lone Wolf Distributor, and then to an improved Glock extractor, neither of those fixes in any combination with either of the recoil spring changed anything for the better. Different ammunition was also tried to see what effect that would have, and it made no difference. The extractor plunger assembly was also replaced because of speculation on the internet that it may have something to do with weak ejection, and because my stock one had become abnormally damaged through routine use. That too failed to produce reliable ejection with any combination of recoil spring assemblies or extractors. So the gun was sent back to Glock for repairs. As far as I know the only changes that were made were the ejector was replaced with the redesigned ejector that is now in it, and they replaced the damaged stock extractor plunger assembly. The tech said the wear on the plunger was not abnormal per se, but it was very abnormal for the number of rounds fired. They’ve seen plungers like that before, just usually on guns with 10’s of thousands of rounds through them, not one with 1,025 rounds through it.

From the 300 rds I’ve fired since the ejector was replaced I would say that the ejector was the problem, but without having the old ejector to verify that, I can’t say definitively. Just from all indications I have, that was the cause. I could put some of the old parts in it and see if the problem crops back up, but I would expect that if the new parts didn’t solve the problem before, the old parts shouldn’t bring it back, with the exception of the ejector. I suppose I could try that, but it might take awhile.

The good news being that if the ejector is indeed the problem, that’s something anyone can check at the gun store by locking the slide back and looking down on the ejector. If it’s blunted on the end, you should be good. If it’s the older style very sharp pointed one, get a different model.

The new extractor plunger is being worn in the same places, but it’s to a normal degree this time. It looks slightly used and has a polished area around half of it, but there is no pitting or gouging like there was before. The newer Glock extractor falls free during disassembly like the Lone Wolf did, to my knowledge this part was not replaced by Glock when the pistol was returned for service, if so the part number or vendor code, whatever it is, is still “10” like it is in the photos and video I made comparing the extractors. The Lone Wolf is marked with a 4 on one of the top inner surfaces; the Glocks are marked on their inner edge. The pistol as it is currently set up has a Glock extractor plunger, the “newer” Glock extractor that does not have the depression or sprue mark, an 0-4-3 recoil spring assembly, and their new squared off ejector. It consistently ejected whatever I shot during the last 300 rd session, to include some softer reloads that only chrony to 900 some odd fps.

I still don’t feel comfortable using it as a carry gun however. It is MUCH better than it was, but I don’t know. We have history, and most of it isn’t good. It’s going to take this particular gun a long time to earn my trust, if ever. It may live life as a paper puncher or it may live life with someone else, I’m comfortable enough in it’s functioning that I would sell it now, but I’m at a loss what to replace it with if I did. I picked a G19 for a reason. They beat everyone on capacity, weight, size, and up until recently reliability, and I’m invested into them. Getting something else means ditching magazines, holsters, parts, etc. I may try to find a NIB older Gen 3 prior to the M serial numbers or something, I’d have to do more looking and find out when they changed the extractors.

I’ll try to post up some more pictures or maybe a video or 2 about the current parts later. I have all the folders and stuff for this on another computer and want to keep the photos organized in the same way and place, so I can’t do it from here.

DenaliPark
October 15, 2011, 12:12 AM
^^^ What exactly are you referring to as the recoil plunger?

SGT Duffman
October 15, 2011, 12:58 AM
Good catch. Should be extractor plunger. The plunger that pushes against the back of the extractor with the spring end touching the firing pin plate at the back of the slide. Long day man.

9mmHolePunch
October 15, 2011, 04:53 PM
Duffman

Thanks for the detailed summary. It sounds like it really is the ejector that was at fault but certainly the extractor had its problems too.

I was leaning toward getting a Gen 3 over a Gen 4 based on all the significant problems reported until this morning. I was shooting a recent vintage Gen 3 and I was getting brass thrown at my head on a regular basis. Never had this happen on any other gun I have owned, borrowed or rented so now I know what you are talking about first hand. I guess I will have to wait for the new improvements to get into production models before I buy any generation.

SGT Duffman
October 15, 2011, 08:41 PM
The only thing I'm aware of that's different on the current production gen 3 vs gen 3 G19s from say 3 years ago is the extractor. I'd like to think that one produced lately, like within the last couple of months would have the better extractor back in it.

The ejector that came with my gun and the one in the gen 3 as far as I know is the same type that was in the gen 2 g19, it apparently doesn't work in gen 4 guns though, hence the new ejector. I wouldn't think the gen 3 would need that. They worked fine until recently with the old style ejector, I see no reason they would stop working except the extractor. I don't know maybe they need the ejector too, but I don't see why they would. They worked fine with the old ejector until they got MIM extractors. In any case here some pictures and videos. Nothing special.

http://s1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa348/SGTDuffman/Glock%20Fixes/10-14-2011/

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