Sold all my 'small' CCW pistols


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the count
June 2, 2011, 04:32 PM
After actually carrying several different so-called sub compact guns incl. SW Bodyguard 38, KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP I came to the conclusion that the all suck firepower wise. Please, don't get back with comments like 'one well placed round between the eyes....' bla bla bla. I have not been in an actual gunfight (thank god) but have several advanced combat pistol courses under the belt and guys, even with these simulations its TOTALLY different from standing at the range with a stationary target 7 yards away. I now carry either a XDM9 with a whopping 19 round mag or a GLOCK 30SF with 13 rounds of 45 ACP. Slightly more uncomfortable? Maybe. Peace of mind? Tons better.

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Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 2, 2011, 04:34 PM
It sounds like you did the right thing, for you, that is good!
Thanks for sharing that with us!

towboat_er
June 2, 2011, 04:37 PM
Two thumbs up for peace of mind.

Effigy
June 2, 2011, 04:41 PM
I'm not opposed to carrying a larger gun, but I don't see where you're coming from with the firepower argument. I don't anticipate a realistic SD encounter to have the same requirements as an advanced combat pistol course. If you feel you need 20 rounds to be safe, go with what works for you. I'd rather take 8 rounds in a convenient package for EDC. When knowingly going into dangerous territory I think it makes sense to take a more capable weapon, but for EDC it doesn't seem necessary. Might depend where you work/live though.

JustinJ
June 2, 2011, 05:16 PM
While a larger gun certainly has advantages over a subcompact in a gunfight all those go out the window if you have neither. So as long as your frequency of carry doesnt change i wouldn't necessarily say you made a bad choice.

Zerodefect
June 2, 2011, 05:18 PM
Yeah, I agree completely. A decent pistol course or some IDPA action really shows how much worse some of our favorite CCW choices are.

I carry my .380 on days where I choose not to carry anything at all. I have more confidence in a good fixed blade knife.

I still like DAO single stacks like the Kahrs, in fact those may be my favorite day time CCW's. But a Glock 19/23/26 or 4-5" 1911 completely outshoots those.

xr1200
June 2, 2011, 05:28 PM
If you live in a climate that is cold enough year round to wear a short jacket or coat you can get away carrying almost any size pistol. But in 95% of the USA its just to hot and hard to conceal most medium frame guns and large autos.

So for most of us you need a summer carry weapon and a winter carry gun.

Not all of us wear 3XXXL hawaiin shirts during the summer and spring months, most average adult males will be wearing shorts and T shirts the hot summer months, so it really makes guns bigger than a 380 impracticle.

the count
June 2, 2011, 05:28 PM
Yeah, I agree completely. A decent pistol course or some IDPA action really shows how much worse some of our favorite CCW choices are.

I carry my .380 on days where I choose not to carry anything at all. I have more confidence in a good fixed blade knife.

I still like DAO single stacks like the Kahrs, in fact those may be my favorite day time CCW's. But a Glock 19/23/26 or 4-5" 1911 completely outshoots those.
Thats my point. Many assume because something works at the range in perfect lighting and not shooting back that it will work in real life SHTF situations. Most attacks are at night or under low light conditions. And the bad guys will not stand still. So there WILL be a lot of misses. Incidentally I am also selling a bunch of my holsters. Have some nice leather ones and a couple Blackhawk Kydex withe the release button. My last course convinced me the the extra split second you fiddle with it can cost your life, so trading it for the plain jane version. But like JustinJ points out a big gun left at home does you absolutely no good.

Rail Driver
June 2, 2011, 05:46 PM
FWIW, I keep a full size 1911 and a G26. My G26 is my EDC, but it generally doesn't have a stock mag in it, but rather a +2 extension so it's pretty close to the grip length of a G19. None of my firearms are smaller than 9mm, but I feel just as comfortable carrying my .45 as I do my 9mm.

I have been thinking about getting a Sig P238, but I doubt that would be anything but a range piece and something to carry when I can't dress to cover either of my other pistols.

Shipwreck
June 2, 2011, 05:50 PM
I don't care for subcompacts much either. I never practiced with them, but carried them for years. I always preferred the larger guns.

Now, I carry a 92FS. Much happier and I shoot well, as I'm always practicing with my fav range/carry gun now

trekgod3
June 2, 2011, 06:04 PM
I sold my Kel-tec P11 and P-3AT and now carry a Glock 27 or Glock 30 :)

the count
June 2, 2011, 06:08 PM
I sold my Kel-tec P11 and P-3AT and now carry a Glock 27 or Glock 30


Gotta love having 13 rounds of 45 ACP......

huntsman
June 2, 2011, 06:10 PM
I have not been in an actual gunfight (thank god) but have several advanced combat pistol courses under the belt and guys, even with these simulations its TOTALLY different from standing at the range with a stationary target 7 yards away. I now carry either a XDM9 with a whopping 19 round mag or a GLOCK 30SF with 13 rounds of 45 ACP.

your training experiances has shown the need for Hi-cap or heavier bullets or both?

the count
June 2, 2011, 06:21 PM
your training experiances has shown the need for Hi-cap or heavier bullets or both?
You need at least a dozen rounds. 9mm will do, 45 is better.

The Lone Haranguer
June 2, 2011, 06:23 PM
I think guns of that size are best as BUGs (backup guns), or for dress/social occasions when it is imperative that you not be "made." Gun scribbler Duane Thomas once called them - a bit facetiously, I think - "'church' guns." I would not want to be completely without a "small" gun, however.

huntsman
June 2, 2011, 06:42 PM
You need at least a dozen rounds. 9mm will do, 45 is better.
yeah that makes sense, I'm thinking about the G30 but didn't realize you could get that kind of capacity with them.

I'm not giving up my LCP but a small, light hi-cap .45acp is something I'd like to buy.

Big_John1961
June 2, 2011, 06:46 PM
Gotta love having 13 rounds of 45 ACP......ws Glock 30 is 10+1.

SharpsDressedMan
June 2, 2011, 06:56 PM
I love mouse guns, mini guns, compact guns, pocket guns, well, all guns, really. BUT,
I do know where you are coming from. Common sense says carry enough gun, although we do not listen to common sense all the time. I own and carry a Colt 1903 .32, and a Colt Det. Spec. .38 on occasion. Neither is enough gun in a serious defensive encounter. I bow to a recent acquisition that is more compact than the Colt DS, but carries 11 rounds more powerful than a .357: the Glock 29. Now that is my peace of mind, and I SHOULD rid myself of all lesser guns. I just LIKE guns. Did I mention that I like ALL guns?

the count
June 2, 2011, 07:00 PM
Glock 30 is 10+1.
The GL 30 will take the GL 21 mag which is 13 rounds. Works AOK.

AOK
June 2, 2011, 07:04 PM
You need at least a dozen rounds. 9mm will do, 45 is better.

Good on you for getting training. I try to get into a class or private instruction once every 2-3 months and it is priceless. Just out of curiosity where in the world does a "dozen rounds" come from?

Big_John1961
June 2, 2011, 07:05 PM
The GL 30 will take the GL 21 mag which is 13 rounds. Works AOK.

I am aware, but what's the point of getting a compact .45 if you are going to attempt to carry it with a 13 round magazine hanging out of it? Why not just carry the G21? Kind of defeats the purpose.

Effigy
June 2, 2011, 07:12 PM
I suspect you're firing a lot of rounds during your combat shooting course, which makes it seem like you need a high capacity gun to stand a chance. Typically SD encounters are not going to be an extended shootout, and usually happen at short range. I'm not saying you're wrong to want more capacity, but to say that less than 12 rounds is insufficient seems unrealistic to me.

the count
June 2, 2011, 07:14 PM
I am aware, but what's the point of getting a compact .45 if you are going to attempt to carry it with a 13 round magazine hanging out of it? Why not just carry the G21? Kind of defeats the purpose.
I actually have the 30SF with the 21 mag. Sure, the mag sticks out more than with the 10, but the overall size is more manageable than the huge honkin 21. But you know the saying, to each his own :-)

the count
June 2, 2011, 07:16 PM
I suspect you're firing a lot of rounds during your combat shooting course, which makes it seem like you need a high capacity gun to stand a chance. Typically SD encounters are not going to be an extended shootout, and usually happen at short range. I'm not saying you're wrong to want more capacity, but to say that less than 12 rounds is insufficient seems unrealistic to me.
Its all about the personal comfort zone and its really just my 2 cents worth. I dont consider myself a really good shot so I need more round to send downrange....

Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 2, 2011, 07:18 PM
I feel comfortable with what I carry daily.
I am not under-gunned.

armoredman
June 2, 2011, 07:54 PM
I have started carrying what most would not consider to be a CCW pistol - my SP-01 Phantom. It can be done, even in AZ heat. :)

the count
June 2, 2011, 08:11 PM
I have started carrying what most would not consider to be a CCW pistol - my SP-01 Phantom. It can be done, even in AZ heat. :)
Love them CZ's. SP01 is a great full size gun.

Nakanokalronin
June 2, 2011, 08:26 PM
I don't care for subcompacts much either. I never practiced with them, but carried them for years. I always preferred the larger guns.

Now, I carry a 92FS. Much happier and I shoot well, as I'm always practicing with my fav range/carry gun now
Did you go back to the fullsize 92FS? I thought you switched to the compact?

Zerodefect
June 2, 2011, 08:45 PM
Thats my point. Many assume because something works at the range in perfect lighting and not shooting back that it will work in real life SHTF situations. Most attacks are at night or under low light conditions. And the bad guys will not stand still. So there WILL be a lot of misses. Incidentally I am also selling a bunch of my holsters. Have some nice leather ones and a couple Blackhawk Kydex withe the release button. My last course convinced me the the extra split second you fiddle with it can cost your life, so trading it for the plain jane version. But like JustinJ points out a big gun left at home does you absolutely no good.

Try Ravens concealment to replace your OWB kydex holsters. I prefer the regular cuts, not the Magpul cuts.




I've divided up my CCW's into catagories.

Daytime CCW- Usually a bit smaller. 4" 1911 with thin grips or Glock 23/26. Kahr p380 for really hot days or days I don't want to carry.

Usually I'll use IDPA type sights on these. Thinest Dawson front FO sight I can find with a plain black rear Hienie or 10-8.

Night time CCW-usually a 4-5" 1911 with thicker grips or a Glock 23. Small concealment isn't as big of a deal at night. And larger guns will be handy since I'm more likely to use them at night.

Hienie Ledge Straight Eight Nightsights. I'd like to see if Dawson could make a Hienie ledge type sight with a custom extra wide rear notch for speed. Say .170".

Daytime hot weather/deep concealment- single stack Kahrs.

Fullsize day time setups- Glock 17/35/1911's, thick grips, IDPA style sights. Usually for range work, IDPA, training etc. But they do find thier way onto my hip under a jacket/shirt when I'm in the sticks offroading, working, or camping.


For me. There is nothing that works well on average. A nightsight setup is way slower than my daytime setups during the day, and vice versa. And My Glocks and 1911's shred my smaller Kahrs on any IDPA stage.

catnphx
June 2, 2011, 08:50 PM
Count - only you can make those types of decisions and, personally, I don't disagree with you. I have three regular carry guns and it all depends on weather, activity, mood, clothing, etc...



M&P 9c (w/ Crossbreed Supertuck IWB) - 13 rounds + 17 spare mag = 30 round capacity S&W .357 Model 640-1 (w/ Galco KingTuk IWB) - 5 rounds + 5 spare = 10 round capacity Kahr CW9 (w/ Kholster Crescent IWB) - 8 rounds + 7 spare mag = 15 round capacity

I've not yet (and probably won't) get into the smaller pocket guns. I've got these three to choose from so something will always fit the situation. Plus, I always have a spare magazine in my pocket.

the count
June 2, 2011, 08:57 PM
Try Ravens concealment to replace your OWB kydex holsters. I prefer the regular cuts, not the Magpul cuts.



I like the holsters, but from their website.... they kidding?

Allow 16-18 weeks for delivery on holsters and modular carriers.

Tomcat47
June 2, 2011, 09:15 PM
Goes to show ya! ..... CC Is a real Pain in the Tush!

Its just not possible to find that perfect all season CC (MO)

The Compacts, Sub-compacts, and Mouse Guns are especially easier to conceal...more comfy!....etc.

And actually caliber does not bother me nearly as much as shootability!

I am talking sight radius! Full Size 1911 - Full Size Beretta 92....

Now thats what I want on me if trouble arises and my life is on the line, and not because of more rounds or bigger rounds.....Sight Radius! Shootability!

I personally shoot both Full and Compact pistols well, but the effects of sight radius are so aparent between the two platforms, especially when you are doing a rapid fire and recovery.

Maybe just me? My 2 cents as well! :)

jon86
June 2, 2011, 09:22 PM
I now carry either a XDM9 with a whopping 19 round mag or a GLOCK 30SF with 13 rounds of 45 ACP.

I am happy for you that you have found what works well for you. A couple of things that I'd like to friendly point out. :)

Let's not forget that a gun is simply one tool in the shed.
It's more important to be physically fit enough to get off of the "X" very quickly than to have enough firepower to lay down suppressive fire.
It's also important to actually know some hand to hand combat skills. Go to the gym. Work out. Gain physical strength. Get faster. Work on footwork. Do cardio. etc.

I'm USUALLY comfortable with a "measly" 5 "anemic" rounds of 38 special. :D

Zerodefect
June 2, 2011, 09:36 PM
I like the holsters, but from their website.... they kidding?

Allow 16-18 weeks for delivery on holsters and modular carriers.

Yup. My 1911 holster and mag carriers took exaclty what they said it would to arrive.

Magpuls hand gun DVD made them popular quick.

Zerodefect
June 2, 2011, 09:38 PM
Goes to show ya! ..... CC Is a real Pain in the Tush!

Its just not possible to find that perfect all season CC (MO)

The Compacts, Sub-compacts, and Mouse Guns are especially easier to conceal...more comfy!....etc.

And actually caliber does not bother me nearly as much as shootability!

I am talking sight radius! Full Size 1911 - Full Size Beretta 92....

Now thats what I want on me if trouble arises and my life is on the line, and not because of more rounds or bigger rounds.....Sight Radius! Shootability!

I personally shoot both Full and Compact pistols well, but the effects of sight radius are so aparent between the two platforms, especially when you are doing a rapid fire and recovery.

Maybe just me? My 2 cents as well! :)

Someone here cut a Glock 17 down to a G19 size grip length. So they had long radius sights with short concealable grip.

Ingenius.

Nushif
June 2, 2011, 09:48 PM
I actually swapped to a bigger carry recently, too. But for an entirely different reason:
Manipulating the pistol. Smaller guns to me felt harder to actually work in almost every way. So now I carry A "Compact" Service Pistol, which fits me well.

Tomcat47
June 2, 2011, 10:01 PM
Someone here cut a Glock 17 down to a G19 size grip length. So they had long radius sights with short concealable grip.

Im Not even a Glock Fan but I would like to see this!

KAS1981
June 2, 2011, 10:15 PM
I actually swapped to a bigger carry recently, too. But for an entirely different reason:
Manipulating the pistol. Smaller guns to me felt harder to actually work in almost every way. So now I carry A "Compact" Service Pistol, which fits me well.
After purchasing a Ruger LC9 and shooting it some, this is what concerns me about carrying an itty-bitty 9mm versus a compact. I'm afraid I just wouldn't be able to handle the weapon very well should trouble come along.

I'm now thinking of going to a slightly larger Kahr model, or possibly a compact service pistol (maybe like an M&P9C).

AOK
June 2, 2011, 10:37 PM
Someone here cut a Glock 17 down to a G19 size grip length. So they had long radius sights with short concealable grip.

Ingenius.

Actually one of the first people I have ever seen do this is a sales rep for Raven Gear and instructor for Michigan Defensive Firearms Institute. Very smart indeed!

Zerodefect
June 2, 2011, 10:40 PM
Im Not even a Glock Fan but I would like to see this!

Glocks all have the same magazine compatability. 22 mags fit in a 23 but are too long.
But if you cut the bottom off a 22 and shape it just like the bottom of a 23 the 23 mags will click right in.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961914

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450665

catnphx
June 2, 2011, 11:06 PM
After purchasing a Ruger LC9 and shooting it some, this is what concerns me about carrying an itty-bitty 9mm versus a compact. I'm afraid I just wouldn't be able to handle the weapon very well should trouble come along.

I'm now thinking of going to a slightly larger Kahr model, or possibly a compact service pistol (maybe like an M&P9C).
I looked at the LC9 recently but it just felt too small in my hand so I went with the Kahr CW9 and I'm very happy with the decision. The CW9 fit like a glove. Also, the M&P 9c is a good choice in a Crossbreed holster.

Aiko492
June 2, 2011, 11:09 PM
FWIW, I keep a full size 1911 and a G26. My G26 is my EDC, but it generally doesn't have a stock mag in it, but rather a +2 extension so it's pretty close to the grip length of a G19. None of my firearms are smaller than 9mm, but I feel just as comfortable carrying my .45 as I do my 9mm.

I have been thinking about getting a Sig P238, but I doubt that would be anything but a range piece and something to carry when I can't dress to cover either of my other pistols.

My EDC is the G26 and I recently picked up the Sig P238 for the South Carolina summers and as a BUG. It really is a nice shooter @ the range and not jam machine like other .380's I have owned.

ATAShooter
June 2, 2011, 11:09 PM
no problems here with my XD9sc...

CornCod
June 2, 2011, 11:32 PM
If a fellow can carry a .45 Glock comfortably.... well good for him! But if our first poster finds himself leaving the Glock at home to avoid bulkiness, then he has made the wrong decision.

makarovnik
June 3, 2011, 04:36 AM
I carry a small weapon as my primary (P3AT) and feel armed well enough. I would feel better armed with a .45 but then again it might be big enough to be left home sometimes. There is no reason not to take the P3AT with me. I can just slip it in a pocket holster and off I go.

<edit>

Johnny Lightning
June 3, 2011, 06:14 AM
I still like my LCP as a daily carry pistol....Its as easy as sliding it into your pocket when going into a store or for a walk etc...Not many other pistols are soo easily concealable on a short term notice. If you feel that 7rounds are not enough, its not a problem just carry another mag that is the size of a pack of gum and you now have 13 rounds at your fingertips. I am looking at a Glock 26 for my next carry pistol but the LCP will still be used most of the time. My LCP has also been 100% reliable which is also very important in choosing a carry pistol...oh and i purchased it used for $200 to boot! :D

mljdeckard
June 3, 2011, 10:05 AM
I agree with the OP almost entirely. It's not the capacity I like so much as the better sight radius, weight, and ease of handling in a bigger gun.

Ben86
June 3, 2011, 10:32 AM
Slightly more uncomfortable? Maybe. Peace of mind? Tons better.

That pretty much sums it up. While I don't want to sell all my small CCWs, such as my lovely pm9, because there are times when I need to carry a small gun, want a back up or am just lazy and comfort seeking that day.

Don't get sucked into the status quo of CCW=tiny gun. Bigger guns are only a little bit more uncomfortable if you do it right. My CCW is either a Glock 17 or M&P45 unless one of the above reasons happens.

Hastings
June 3, 2011, 10:40 AM
I carry a 22-4 S&W N-frame during the winter, and a Glock 23 during the summer. I think the two carry about the same, but the glock is more sweat resistant for the summer months.

I can't stand small semi-autos. I feel like I have to pinch them between my thumb and forefinger to shoot them. For me, they would be a back-up at best. My brother, who is larger than me, loves his Ruger LCP 380. He calls it his "get off me" gun, and I have seen him conceal it (unloaded) in his mouth just to prove the point. From my perspective, carrying a concealed firearm should be comforting, not comfortable, (forget the author of that quote), and while an LCP is marginally better than pepper spray or a stun-gun, I have a hard time considering it a reasonable primary carry weapon. The only credible reason I can think of for not being able to conceal an all-steel S&W J-frame revolver is if you typically wear a spandex jumpsuit all day. I can carry an N-frame in my front pocket with my shirt untucked and have nobody be the wiser, so a J-frame in a pocket holster seems perfectly reasonable unless fashion is more of an issue than security. In that case, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying at all.

rellascout
June 3, 2011, 12:46 PM
While I support each individuals choice to carry whatever they choose I personally do not feel under gunned carrying a S&W 642 or a Kahr CW9. They are easy to carry and a gun on me is better than no gun.

I think people get caught up in the idea that they are going to be in a long drawn out fire fight. The stats do not support that.

In the end everyone needs to carry what they are comfortable with.

saltydog452
June 3, 2011, 01:21 PM
I kinda like handy size utility stuff thats close to hand.

salty

the count
June 3, 2011, 01:22 PM
And as a thank you for all the posts so far a little piece of CCW humor:

AN ACTUAL CRAIG'S LIST PERSONALS AD

To the Guy Who Tried to Mug Me in Downtown Savannah night before last.

Date: 2010-09-27, 1:43 a.m. E.S.T.

I was the guy wearing the black Burberry jacket that you demanded that I hand over, shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my girlfriend, threatening our lives. You also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I can only hope that you somehow come across this rather important message.

First, I'd like to apologize for your embarrassment; I didn't expect you to actually crap in your pants when I drew my pistol after you took my jacket.. The evening was not that cold, and I was wearing the jacket for a reason .. my girlfriend was happy that I just returned safely from my 2nd tour as a Combat Marine in Afghanistan .. She had just bought me that Kimber Custom Model 1911 .45 ACP pistol for my birthday, and we had picked up a shoulder holster for it that very evening. Obviously you agree that it is a very intimidating weapon when pointed at your head ... isn't it?!

I know it probably wasn't fun walking back to wherever you'd come from with that brown sludge in your pants. I'm sure it was even worse walking bare-footed since I made you leave your shoes, cell phone, and wallet with me. [That prevented you from calling or running to your buddies to come help mug us again].

After I called your mother or "Momma" as you had her listed in your cell, I explained the entire episode of what you'd done. Then I went and filled up my gas tank as well as those of four other people in the gas station, -- on your credit card. The guy with the big motor home took 153 gallons and was extremely grateful!

I gave your shoes to a homeless guy outside Vinnie Van Go Go's, along with all the cash in your wallet. [That made his day!]

I then threw your wallet into the big pink "pimp mobile" that was parked at the curb .... after I broke the windshield and side window and keyed the entire driver's side of the car.

Later, I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cell phone. Ma Bell just now shut down the line, although I only used the phone for a little over a day now, so what 's going on with that? Earlier, I managed to get in two threatening phone calls to the DA's office and one to the FBI, while mentioning President Obama as my possible target.

The FBI guy seemed really intense and we had a nice long chat (I guess while he traced your number etc.).

; In a way, perhaps I should apologize for not killing you ... but I feel this type of retribution is a far more appropriate punishment for your threatened crime. I wish you well as you try to sort through some of these rather immediate pressing issues, and can only hope that you have the opportunity to reflect upon, and perhaps reconsider, the career path you've chosen to pursue in life.. Remember, next time you might not be so lucky. Have a good day!

Thoughtfully yours, Semper Fi,

Alex

rellascout
June 3, 2011, 01:39 PM
while an LCP is marginally better than pepper spray or a stun-gun..

:scrutiny:

Sorry but pepper spray is not going to be lethal. 99% of the time either is a stun gun.

Why on earth would you say this? Especially the part in bold.

J-frame in a pocket holster seems perfectly reasonable unless fashion is more of an issue than security. In that case, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying at all.

It seems like you are attacking other members for what many consider a valid choice. I cannot carry a J frame in the front pocket of my dress pants which are required where I work. I cannot carry a duty sized pistol with a dress shirt on. There are times that my choosen activity is not condusive to carrying a BHP or Sig P228. Are you honestly proposing that if clothing related to job or activity does not allow from proper concealment of a J frame other slimmer alternatives are not viable. Seems a bit absurd to me.

JustinJ
June 3, 2011, 02:40 PM
There is no magic number of minimum size or capacity. There are highly unlikely situations where an LCP may not sufficient but there are also situations where any pistol isnt sufficient. Sould we all wear trench coats to allow carry of a rifle at all times? Of course not. Carry the best weapon you can practically. A mugger coming at you with a knife could be easily handled by an LCP along with many other situations. A band of terrorists storming the mall, not so much. So carry the most effective weapon you can practically. If you can manage a Glock 21 year round that's great but I'm not wearing a jacket in 100 degree texas heat. I generally go with a HKp2000sk with a short mag for concealment with one to two full size mags just in case. But often my Ruger LC9 is the biggest i can conceal within reason and occasionally its even an LCP.

lobo9er
June 3, 2011, 02:53 PM
So as long as your frequency of carry doesnt change
I have more confidence in a good fixed blade knife.


Fixed blades are illegal to carry in the city near me. But with a CCW you can Carry a Gun, go figure.

group17
June 3, 2011, 03:12 PM
I sold my Kel-tec P11 and P-3AT and now carry a Glock 27 or Glock 30 :)
I'd get rid of the keltec's just because of the trigger.

The Wiry Irishman
June 3, 2011, 03:31 PM
I've always carried full size guns. I do have a couple small carry guns, 95% of the time they're backups, the rest for the very rare occasions when I can't dress around a full size gun. Full size guns are just way easier to shoot accurately, and if you have good gear and an open mind, the added size and weight are largely irrelevant.

Capacity isn't as big a concern for me. Although my daily carry is 12 or 13 + 1 depending on the baseplate, I'm perfectly comfortably with a 1911 and a spare mag. Gun fights don't last long statistically or use much ammo. My personal comfort level is enough ammo to stop two attackers. The completely non-scientific rule of thumb I use from reading about real-life shootings is that 4 hits = 1 reliable stop.

harmon rabb
June 3, 2011, 03:38 PM
Not a bad idea. Sometimes, my LCP or 238 can make me lazy. I know I can select the right clothing and carry my EMP, but damn, wouldn't it be easier to just toss on my favorite old pair of worn jeans, a t-shirt, and toss the 238 in my pocket? I wouldn't go unarmed, so if I didn't have such easy choices, I'd be forced to carry something "real."

My saving grace here is my family. If I'm with my family, I will not make the lazy choice, because I have more than just myself to protect. With my family, I will always take the EMP, an extra mag, etc.

trex1310
June 3, 2011, 04:28 PM
I was parking my truck after making a lunch run to Wendy's when a
gentleman screeched up blocking my vehicle, jumped out of his truck
with an approximate 3' length of galvanized pipe and demanded my
wallet. I pulled my Springfield XD .45acp and shot the gentleman
just below the heart, left of centerline. He was knocked off his
feet, but managed to get up and jump back in his vehicle and make
a hasty exit from the scene. He was later apprehended at a local
hospital emergency room. He was charged with attempted armed
robbery. I later found out that he recovered from the gunshot wound.
There are no guarantees when it comes to calibers and what they
will do. My thoughts are as follows:
If you pull it, use it
Aim for center mass
Carry as much gun as you can shoot well

Hastings
June 3, 2011, 04:43 PM
I certainly didn't mean to attack other members. I was being flippant. Please forgive me if I offended anyone.

I find the trend toward lighter and lighter firearms, along with the trend toward guns like the Judge (which to me seems marketed toward individuals that are less likely to be trained or practice with firearms to any meaningful extent) to be questionable. I'm sure that many forum members own and love these guns, and God bless them. I carry a Glock, and many people I know laugh at my "plastic gun". I'm thick skinned, sticks and stones... you know.

I simply think that many of the ultra-small, ultra-light guns on the market are ending up in the hands of people better served with a non-lethal weapon. I personally know of at least seven individuals who have purchased LCP's and LCR's, who are more likely to injure themselves or have the gun taken from them if they ever attempt to use it in self defense. I'm not being flippant on this one. They are neither mechanically inclined enought or serious enough about being able to adequately shoot the gun to be safe with one in my opinion. I think that carrying a handgun for self defense is a serious matter, and while everyone should be entitled to defend themselves there are many who are either unwilling or incapable of mastering a firearm for self-defense. Like the absurd comic skits with cell-phones that are to small to dial, I think that making these guns so small and light is actually making them easy to carry, but less easy to use, and less pleasant to shoot, which can lead to them being seldom practiced with. Combine that with someone who likes the low price and has never handled a firearm before and you have trouble. Here in Vermont you can walk into a gunstore and walk out ten minutes later with a handgun as long as you aren't a felon. No training required, no skills, no license. Plus, you can then pocket the gun and legally carry it on you with no permit or training. You can begin to see the problem.

As far as non-lethal weapons, I think that not every self-defense encounter needs to be deadly, and not everyone is prepared to take a human life, even in self defense. This is what lead to my pepper spray and stun-gun reference.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. It was not my intention. I maintain my opinion of these smaller/lighter weapons, but it's just that, my opinion, and worth no more or less than anyone elses.

frequently tongue in cheek,
Hastings

Smaug
June 3, 2011, 04:54 PM
It doesn’t have to be either/or, you know. You can carry a 380 that is slightly larger than a subcompact that carries 8 rounds. The gun is big enough to shoot comfortably and accurately, but not (19-round-double-stack) big and comfortable.

I think you’ll get through this phase, Count, and come back to planet Earth some day.

Gtscotty
June 3, 2011, 05:16 PM
Here in Vermont you can walk into a gunstore and walk out ten minutes later with a handgun as long as you aren't a felon. No training required, no skills, no license. Plus, you can then pocket the gun and legally carry it on you with no permit or training. You can begin to see the problem.

I don't see a problem. You're teetering on the edge of a slippery slope here.

As an aside, when choosing what to carry, I like to consider my realistic personal threat level, which is almost always quite low. Because of this, the ease of carry of a light .380 or 9mm is more important to me that the admittedly greater power of a full size .45. I deem the reduction in capacity, power and medium range precision due to my decision to be part of an acceptable compromise. ymmv

JustinJ
June 3, 2011, 05:28 PM
"You can carry a 380 that is slightly larger than a subcompact that carries 8 rounds."

Why when they make 9s that are just as concealable?

Smaug
June 3, 2011, 05:41 PM
JustinJ: Because a small 380 is lots easier to shoot well than a small 9mm.

JustinJ
June 3, 2011, 05:45 PM
But the posters main concern is firepower.

And i wouldn't say "lots" easier for most adult males unless we're talking 9mm +P+.

LawScholar
June 3, 2011, 06:26 PM
Here in Vermont you can walk into a gunstore and walk out ten minutes later with a handgun as long as you aren't a felon. No training required, no skills, no license. Plus, you can then pocket the gun and legally carry it on you with no permit or training. You can begin to see the problem

Uh...nope, I can't. I don't have to take a speech class to exercise freedom of speech, nor be a theological scholar to practice freedom of religion. Inalienable rights are pesky that way.

I just carry an extra mag with my LCP. I feel perfectly fine with 13 rounds of .380

BIGGBAY90
June 3, 2011, 07:01 PM
after actually carrying several different so-called sub compact guns incl. Sw bodyguard 38, keltec pf9 and ruger lcp i came to the conclusion that the all suck firepower wise. Please, don't get back with comments like 'one well placed round between the eyes....' bla bla bla. I have not been in an actual gunfight (thank god) but have several advanced combat pistol courses under the belt and guys, even with these simulations its totally different from standing at the range with a stationary target 7 yards away. I now carry either a xdm9 with a whopping 19 round mag or a glock 30sf with 13 rounds of 45 acp. Slightly more uncomfortable? Maybe. Peace of mind? Tons better.
when you start to carry what you like (and know how to use it) and not what everyone else like then you put yourself in a better ccw defense position----grrrrrrrrrrrrrreat

amazon shooter
June 3, 2011, 09:21 PM
I always carry the 50 round drum magazine and two spares drums for my auto, just in case if I need them.

Hastings
June 3, 2011, 09:35 PM
I totally agree that the right to defend ourself is an inalienable right. I still live in Vermont because of the gun-friendly laws surrounding buying and carrying firearms. I don't mean to go down a slippery slope at all. Unfortunately, I think I am begining to prefer the arrangement in other states where concealed carry requires a permit. Here's why.

Growing up in Connecticut, a permit was required to carry. If I was pulled over in a traffic stop, or someone accidentally noticed my carry gun, I had a permit to indicate that I was a law-abiding, reasonably trained individual who was eager to cooperate with state laws and state law-enforcment officers. In VT there is no such method of demonstrating your level of conscienciousness regarding training or legal compliance. For all the police officer knows, you could be anyone from a firearms instructor to an anti-social wack-job.

I hate government involvement and regulation in just about any form, but since it's unavoidable I would prefer to have some tangible means of quickly identifying myself as a law-abiding citizen who respects local laws enough to put in the time required to get and maintain a permit. Is this an odd perspective? Maybe, but from my experience there was a certain level of respect afforded those with a permit which is not always offered to the "everybody" in VT who just so happens to have a gun. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is. I don't blame the police officers, either. If I were one, I think I would view permit holders as cooperative, respectful and responsible. If no permit is required, there is no indication of one's attitude toward these factors.

That's my odd-ball view on the subject. I love the fact that I can buy and carry with no waiting period and no hassle, but the increased suspicion with which someone carrying a gun is viewed by law enforcement is unpleasant, if understandable.

lobo9er
June 4, 2011, 12:50 AM
I hate government involvement and regulation in just about any form, but since it's unavoidable I would prefer to have some tangible means of quickly identifying myself as a law-abiding citizen who respects local laws enough to put in the time required to get and maintain a permit. Is this an odd perspective?

Cant tell if he's trolling.
If not my response to everything he has to say about permits is "you dont know what you got till its gone"

move to a more gun unfriendly state and check back.

wristtwister
June 4, 2011, 07:33 AM
My "little friend" is a Para P-12... 13 rounds of 230 grain .45 caliber that will put the kibosh on just about anything walking... It's not terribly bulky, and with a spare magazine puts 25 rounds at my disposal...

I've got a raft full of the little "sissie pistols"... .380's and 9's, but after talking to a CIA operative who was shot point blank with a .45 by a guy overseas who was a prohibitively bad shot, I decided that .45 was the way to go. He was hit mid shoulder, and to quote him... "I went from standing up to being flat on my back". He killed his attacker from the floor with HIS .45.

After looking at ballistic gel that's been hit with different rounds, it's not difficult to see that a .45 will get the job done, short of carrying a 10 MM... and my 10 MM won't carry as many rounds as the .45. I'm a firm believer in "hi-cap" guns, because nobody ever asks you about how much ammo you brought back from a gunfight.

Most calibers will do some harm, but others are "show stoppers"... and my vote goes to the .45's and 10 MM's for carrying. It's kind of the "big bang" theory in practice...

WT

PRM
June 4, 2011, 07:51 AM
Guess it all evens out ~ I just bought two small CCW guns (one .38 and one .32).

I've always found that a big gun is more likely to stay at home or in the car instead of on me. Bottom line, there are no guaranteed one shot stops with a hand gun, and zero one shot or multiple shot stops if you don't have it on you.

I know there are some who do a dedicated carry with the large frame guns ~ but, once the new wears off, most of them wind up in the night stand.

I've been an LEO since the mid-70s. When I first started most officers carried the S&W Chief's Special, S&W Model 60, Colt Detective Special, or Walther PP series guns for off duty. I don't see much different with the new guys coming up. There are more choices now, S&W Bodyguards, Rugers, Keltecs... but its pretty much the same size and caliber guns for everyday use.

The Lone Haranguer
June 4, 2011, 07:52 AM
I cannot carry a J frame in the front pocket of my dress pants which are required where I work. I cannot carry a duty sized pistol with a dress shirt on. There are times that my choosen activity is not condusive to carrying a BHP or Sig P228.
This is the epitome of the dress and social situation for which a "pocket popper" is ideal. In the particular case of the J-frame revolver, these do not conceal all that well in any but large pockets (which dress pants don't have). A pocket auto is smaller in every dimension and, more importantly, is much flatter, with no cylinder bulge.

Zerodefect
June 4, 2011, 09:27 AM
A .380 like the Kahr p380 is still going to stick out like a sore thumb in dress pants.

A small auto or Jframe IWB would probally the best solution.

catnphx
June 4, 2011, 09:28 AM
I've always found that a big gun is more likely to stay at home or in the car instead of on me.

I agree with that and it's for this reason that I carry 9mm. Big enough to get the job done but not so big that it stays home.

My big gun for home is my Mossy 590A1 with a M&P 9 for back-up.

Zerodefect
June 4, 2011, 09:37 AM
I totally agree that the right to defend ourself is an inalienable right. I still live in Vermont because of the gun-friendly laws surrounding buying and carrying firearms. I don't mean to go down a slippery slope at all. Unfortunately, I think I am begining to prefer the arrangement in other states where concealed carry requires a permit. Here's why.

Growing up in Connecticut, a permit was required to carry. If I was pulled over in a traffic stop, or someone accidentally noticed my carry gun, I had a permit to indicate that I was a law-abiding, reasonably trained individual who was eager to cooperate with state laws and state law-enforcment officers. In VT there is no such method of demonstrating your level of conscienciousness regarding training or legal compliance. For all the police officer knows, you could be anyone from a firearms instructor to an anti-social wack-job.

I hate government involvement and regulation in just about any form, but since it's unavoidable I would prefer to have some tangible means of quickly identifying myself as a law-abiding citizen who respects local laws enough to put in the time required to get and maintain a permit. Is this an odd perspective? Maybe, but from my experience there was a certain level of respect afforded those with a permit which is not always offered to the "everybody" in VT who just so happens to have a gun. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it is. I don't blame the police officers, either. If I were one, I think I would view permit holders as cooperative, respectful and responsible. If no permit is required, there is no indication of one's attitude toward these factors.

That's my odd-ball view on the subject. I love the fact that I can buy and carry with no waiting period and no hassle, but the increased suspicion with which someone carrying a gun is viewed by law enforcement is unpleasant, if understandable.

It should be assumed your an honest law abiding civvy unless there is a real reason to think otherwise.

Good officers have a detailed routine that allows them to confront people safely expecting that they'll be armed. If your being stopped for questioning or whatever, he'll search ya or ask if your armed before he just lets you hang out anyways. I'll let an officer chime in on that. But if your playing nice you have little to worry about.

You're better off in Vermont, a free state that allows carry wthout license.

If you really want to. I don't see why you can't get a CCW from another state. I know CCW'ers that also carry a PA or UT license because those carry better reciprocity across more states than the state they live in.

They travel alot.

So if you want a license, go ahead and get one from another state.

Hastings
June 4, 2011, 09:52 AM
Zerodefect,

I had never thought of that, but it sounds like a very good idea. I'm bounded by New York, and Massachusetts if I want to get to PA, or other points south. Are there any forum members reading this that could offer information on whether concealed carry permits are available from these states to out-of state individuals, and what is involved in getting a one of the permits? I've heard New York is pretty much the opposite of Vermont, but I've never looked into Massachusetts. I know CT uses to have a reciprocity law with Rhode Island that so long as you were not spending the night your carry permit was valid in Rhode Island.

By the way, I don't think I was trolling. I just have a lot of time to think and few people locally to discuss those thoughts with. I must also confess that a nice stainless PPK has always appealed to me, but I haven't acted on the urge yet. But I just recently bought a Glock rather than a S&W revolver, so who knows, I may give in to to dark urges in one month.

beeenbag
June 4, 2011, 10:04 AM
I love my pocket 380 and do not feel under gunned with it. I'll carry it comfortably with a smile.:D

Beach Nut
June 4, 2011, 10:15 AM
My Ruger LCP and my Taurus snubbies are definitely better than a empty hand in a self
defense situation. I also have a Glock 26, it is the best shooter among my CCW choices
but it is a little harder to hide in warm weather. With some practice, almost anyone can
become competent with a mouse gun. It is true that a larger gun would be more accurate
and better in a gunfight, but the convenience of having a gun you can put in a pocket
holster and throw in your front pocket outweighs the need to have a larger gun you
have to rig up in a special carry holster and lug around everywhere you go. And chances
are, unless you live in the projects or are traveling through the toughest downtown
area you can imagine, that you will not be using it anyway. I have peace of mind carrying
what I carry and that is really the most important thing. When I do travel in areas known
for high crime rates, I do throw my Glock 21SF or Glock 23 in my truck as a vehicle gun.

lobo9er
June 4, 2011, 10:52 AM
I just have a lot of time to think and few people locally to discuss those thoughts with.
I bet the Brady crew and meny other liberal law makers would love to hear your thoughts.

I would think having a small 380 or like gun may come in handy, would imagine there will be at least a few times you will go with out because concealment will be a task.

the count
June 4, 2011, 10:55 AM
I would like to throw this little true story into our small vs full size discussion:

Friend of mine in a ex Raleigh PD officer. Tall, bald, does not look like your typical victim to start out with. Anyway, recently he was out at night with a lady friend and noticed that a guy was following them. For good measure he took a couple of turns to see what would happen. The guy was still following them and closing in. At this point ex cop turns around and casually pulls back his jacket, showing off his holstered 1911. Bad guys turns around never to be seen again. Does size matter? You be the judge.

armoredman
June 4, 2011, 11:10 AM
Hastings, the exact same rules apply in Arizona, and I am just fine with that. However, we also offer a permit to those who wish one, to avoid the Brady 15 minute phone call wait, (if that long), and carry in reciprocity states. We offer it as a non resident permit, as well.
I dress how I want off duty to conceal, and don't worry if I look odd to anyone but my wife. :) On duty I have Glock 17, pepper spray, Taser, and a whole host of other things available, including a rack with two AR-15s and ten shotguns less than 4 steps from my desk. :)

JohnBT
June 4, 2011, 11:14 AM
"showing off his holstered 1911."

All that proves is that seeing a gun was enough. A .38 revolver or .380 might have been enough, we'll never know.

lobo9er
June 4, 2011, 12:00 PM
"showing off his holstered 1911."

All that proves is that seeing a gun was enough. A .38 revolver or .380 might have been enough, we'll never know.

brandishing a firearm may not be a good strategy anyhow. and I think is a felony I the "bad guy" that happened to be "following" just happened to be going the same direction.

the count
June 4, 2011, 12:03 PM
brandishing a firearm may not be a good strategy anyhow. and I think is a felony I the "bad guy" that happened to be "following" just happened to be going the same direction.
Just uncovering the weapon cannot be construed as brandishing as open carry is legal in NC. Pointing a gun at somebody, even if not loaded, carries a mandatory 3 year sentence if done just to intimidate.

The fine detail that may elude some from the 'flashing the gun' story is the following: If he had had only a small carry pistol he might have simply carried it in his pocket like many here say they do. And pulling it out of the pocket to show to the bad guy could be construed as brandishing or even drawing. Ah yes, the devil is in the detail.

230therapy
June 4, 2011, 12:20 PM
I prefer the Glock 26 (or equivalent such as the M&P compact) due to the short barrel. I use a flat based magazine for discrete carry, 10 round magazine with +0 finger extension for appendix carry, and a Glock 19 mag with adapter when less concealment is necessary.

wheelguy
June 4, 2011, 02:58 PM
My preference is for covering more scenarios, instead of just increasing firepower. Also, I place greater importance on not altering training, than on upping firepower by swapping weapons (not good to have to think about which weapon you have at the moment, and how to use it).

So, I'll add-on instead of build up as dress and circumstance requires as follows...
condition green = pocket carry, PM380. allows putting hand on reliable weapon without being conspicuous.
condition yellow = above + ankle carry S&W AirLight .357. provides a backup weapon and greater firepower/reliability.
condition orange = above 2 + appendix carry G23. adds speed and power, but at a high cost of greatly reduced familiarity with this mode of carry.

huntsman
June 4, 2011, 03:57 PM
I would like to throw this little true story into our small vs full size discussion:

Friend of mine in a ex Raleigh PD officer. Tall, bald, does not look like your typical victim to start out with. Anyway, recently he was out at night with a lady friend and noticed that a guy was following them. For good measure he took a couple of turns to see what would happen. The guy was still following them and closing in. At this point ex cop turns around and casually pulls back his jacket, showing off his holstered 1911. Bad guys turns around never to be seen again. Does size matter? You be the judge.
LEO's are in a whole other category than J6P with all the crap they deal with as part of the job.

In your OP you didn't state that you had any "big guns" I would never advise someone to only own pocket pistols, since I've added one to my stable I'm very happy with it and it's still the only plastic gun I own.

smince
June 4, 2011, 07:13 PM
Might depend where you work/live though.Cause Lord knows, the bad guys never leave the bad part of town and come to the better areas...and 5 shots from the pocket carry gun will always be 'enough' since we never miss (on the range, anyway)...

I carry a G19 daily Appendix-IWB (or 26 when I need a bit more concealment) even in an Alabama summer, backed up by a G17 magazine.'church' gunI carry the G26 here ;)

420Stainless
June 4, 2011, 09:37 PM
While I don't share your opinion as to what constitutes adequate firepower (very happy with my pocket carry PM45 most of the year), I do believe a person ought to carry what suits them for whatever features they deem important. Bravo!

Zerodefect
June 5, 2011, 12:41 AM
Just uncovering the weapon cannot be construed as brandishing as open carry is legal in NC. Pointing a gun at somebody, even if not loaded, carries a mandatory 3 year sentence if done just to intimidate.

The fine detail that may elude some from the 'flashing the gun' story is the following: If he had had only a small carry pistol he might have simply carried it in his pocket like many here say they do. And pulling it out of the pocket to show to the bad guy could be construed as brandishing or even drawing. Ah yes, the devil is in the detail.

Brandishing requires intent.

He revealed his CCW on purpose with the intent to scare someone away. That's illegal.

If you jump onto a table at a local diner and say "I'm going to switch from CCW to Open carry". Then tear off your shirt and let your pistol hang out.......you're going to jail for brandishing.

If you take off your cover shirt quitely in your car and walk in you're legal. Your not showing off your gun, but it's there. But you're probally still going to get harrassed by the law (or lack there of).

Effigy
June 5, 2011, 03:29 AM
Cause Lord knows, the bad guys never leave the bad part of town and come to the better areas...and 5 shots from the pocket carry gun will always be 'enough' since we never miss (on the range, anyway)...

I carry a G19 daily Appendix-IWB (or 26 when I need a bit more concealment) even in an Alabama summer, backed up by a G17 magazine.

Obviously your environment plays a role in what makes sense to carry, which was my point. If you work somewhere that printing will get you fired or in an awkward situation, it doesn't make sense to pack a 19 round gun. If you live in some ghetto hellhole with an above-average risk of violent crime, carrying a bigger gun makes sense.

As far as how many rounds are "enough," there's really no way to know that. In many cases, zero shots may be needed since just having a gun is enough of a threat to defuse the conflict. Likewise, there's no guarantee that your 19 round gun is going to able to handle the situation. There may be problems you can't solve by having more rounds in your gun. All things being equal, more rounds would be better. However, all things are not equal when you start increasing capacity.

You have to balance the likelihood of needing extra rounds in a fight versus the convenience of carrying the gun, which increases the likelihood of having it when you need it (for the vast majority of people, anyway). It's the same concept behind carrying a small multitool. Sure it can't match the capabilities of a bunch of full-sized tools, but I'm way more likely to have the multitool with me when I need it, and it's good enough to handle most tasks. If I'm going into a DIY project (like going into a dangerous area for CCW) I'll try to bring the full-sized tool because I anticipate needing it.

smince
June 5, 2011, 09:27 AM
You have to balance the likelihood of needing extra rounds in a fight versus the convenience of carrying the gun,I don't find carrying a near-service sized gun of adequate power and rounds to be 'inconvenient' :rolleyes:

Needing more than five rounds and only having a J-frame in the pocket would be inconvenient.

snooperman
June 5, 2011, 09:39 AM
It could be a well placed shot from A 32 ACP to the head, or a 380 shot between the chest pockets. It has been documented many times that shot placement supercedes bullet size. That said , most encounters by the citizen are going to be very close, hence a large bulky gun that he/she may not have with them all the time may be a poor choice, Especially for the elderly. Bigger is not always better.

the count
June 5, 2011, 10:05 AM
It could be a well placed shot from A 32 ACP to the head, or a 380 shot between the chest pockets. It has been documented many times that shot placement supercedes bullet size. That said , most encounters by the citizen are going to be very close, hence a large bulky gun that he/she may not have with them all the time may be a poor choice, Especially for the elderly. Bigger is not always better.
Dont get me wrong, I am not questioning your or anybody else's shooting abilities. But I want to see a head shot with a pocket gun at a guy who is moving at 10 yards away. Because if he is armed as well he will not stand there like a target at the range while you aim. While people have been killed with a 32 or even a 22 for that matter a 240 pound male that was not hit lethally can and will take you apart after you run out of your 6 (or whatever) rounds of 32 ACP. Of course I am assuming a worst case scenario but those are the ones that you have to plan for.

snooperman
June 5, 2011, 01:25 PM
you are assuming a very rare case scenario for sure. Ed Lovette and others have documented thousands of confrontations and only 50% required the use of a firearm to stop the bad guy. When a handgun was used ,the average caliber size was a 32. Obviously some were larger but others smaller. That said , the attack came so quick and unexpected that little time was left to respond regardless of the firearm that was carried. In the vast majority of these assaults , the size of the gun and/or caliber did not play much of a role in the outcome. Most were already on the ground etc before they could respond. It is rare thing indeed for someone to fire his/her gun at 10 yards. Read the research that is available, it is an eye opener for sure.

SharpsDressedMan
June 5, 2011, 01:40 PM
From the description of th incident, a possible crime was averted by the prospective victim simply by reacting to the presence of the "possible" threat, letting the the other guy know he was armed (and possibly willing to use it....obviously not your typical unarmed victim), and the other guy went away. No need to get all legalese here. More than half of all crimes go unreported, and in this case, even if the retired cop committed any perceived menacing charge, it averted a worse crime. It would seem that such display of a weapon is NOT a crime, if the alleged "victim" (the stalker) never reports it. The police need to deal with crimes that are reported, or they observe; everything else is just part of life. If we were not there to see it, we have no grounds to assume it was a crime to display being armed.

Fiv3r
June 5, 2011, 02:00 PM
I'm glad you have a carrying plan that works for you:)

Personally, I feel just fine with an LCP in my back pocket and a spare mag shoved into the watch pocket of my jeans most of the time. The beauty of a little pocket auto is having the availability to be armed at times when you might not be able to carrying a larger weapon.

I co-own a business and we have a storefront. It's not a high cash business or a desirable place to "knock over", but I have a few preparations. I keep a chambered and ready to fire high capacity 9mm in my desk drawer. However, it would be offputting to some of my customers to see me walking around with it on my hip. The LCP gives me 7 shots of quality ammo to at least try and even the odds of a bad situation. Much better to have that on me AND the 9mm in the drawer than JUST the 9mm and nothing else.

I carry the LCP with me all the time simply because it is small enough that I can. I don't have to use elaborate holsters or dress around a gun. Oh, if I am going out and about, I pack a .45 or a full sized 9mm or a .38 special. However, the LCP always rides along. Always. There is no reason for it not to.

armoredman
June 5, 2011, 02:28 PM
Brandishing requires intent.

He revealed his CCW on purpose with the intent to scare someone away. That's illegal.

That also depends on where you live.

http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00421.htm

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

B. This section does not apply to a person who:

1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.

2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.

C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.

AZ revised statute.

SharpsDressedMan
June 5, 2011, 03:22 PM
Showing your concealed weapon is very ambiguous as to intent. It can mean "go away" OR, "bring it on!" :D

Effigy
June 5, 2011, 03:55 PM
@ armoredman: Good to know that at least one state has common sense laws for this. That looks like a very well-phrased statute for the issue.

I don't find carrying a near-service sized gun of adequate power and rounds to be 'inconvenient'

Needing more than five rounds and only having a J-frame in the pocket would be inconvenient.
Maybe you don't consider it inconvenient, but most people do. If some guy thinks it's convenient to carry an SBR in his pants, does that mean the rest of the world needs to start packing one? Most people will maximize their rate of carry by choosing a small gun, thereby satifying the first rule of gunfighting. If you don't feel inconvenienced by carrying a full-size pistol, you're ahead of the game but don't expect everyone to follow suit.

As for needing X rounds and only having Y, that can be extrapolated out forever. You never know how many shots or what caliber you might need to deal with a given situation. What happens if you get surrounded by multiple assailants? What happens if you're pinned in the corner of a room trading shots from behind cover? What if the enemy has a kevlar vest? Does this mean I need to carry an AK-47 everyday to feel safe? No, it means I can't expect to address every possible self-defense scenario with my EDC weapon. I can pick a gun that's capable of handling the most likely scenarios and hope I never get attacked by a small army with rifles and body armor shooting at me from 100 yards from behind cover.

stanmo
June 5, 2011, 04:50 PM
Its all about the personal comfort zone and its really just my 2 cents worth. I dont consider myself a really good shot so I need more round to send downrange....

That will sound good on the witness stand after you kill an innocent by-stander. You need some practice.

the count
June 5, 2011, 05:13 PM
That will sound good on the witness stand after you kill an innocent by-stander. You need some practice.
Oops, I wasn't aware everybody else besides me is an excellent shot. FYI there is a difference between admitting not being a great shot and being too stupid to properly evaluate where you are shooting and if there is a potential for collateral damage. I use the same range all the local PD use for training and let me tell you, most LEO are very poor shots.

stanmo
June 5, 2011, 05:22 PM
Didn't mean to lump you in with the "spray and Pray" mentality. I'll defer to your sound judgement.

Effigy
June 5, 2011, 05:51 PM
Like someone else said, I don't think it's fair to make the shot placement argument in favor of small guns. If you can place shots well with a small, snappy gun you can place them even better (and more of them) with a larger gun.

The real question is whether you want to lug a big gun around with you everyday given the likelihood of needing to use it and whether you'll really need the extra capabilities of the larger gun in a probable SD scenario. If trouble is in my foreseeable future for whatever reason, I'd err on the side of carrying the largest gun I reasonably could (and probably keep a rifle in the trunk as well). For EDC in a low-crime area, I feel adequately prepared with a 7+1 9mm subcompact--in my case, the Kel Tec PF9. Some people may opt for an even smaller gun as fits their carry needs and perceived risk factors. I wouldn't advocate a PF9 to a soldier in Iraq, because to them the likelihood of needing the gun is much higher and thus trumps convenience of carry.

Reasoned1
June 5, 2011, 09:16 PM
Here's my theory on carrying: Within the limits of what dress and concealability requirements dictate, I carry whatever I would carry IF I KNEW I WAS GOING TO AN ARMED CONFLICT--because, my friends, that is the possible scenario that drives most of us to reasonably carry and, for all we know, that's exactly what's waiting for us around the corner. I'd be mighty surprised if anybody, thinking that way, would select a mouse gun...

lono
June 5, 2011, 11:46 PM
I carry a 380, wish I could carry one of my 1911s all the time. Concealing the 1911 is just to hard for me. I say carry what you are comfortable with for both concealment and stopping power. I had to compromise and go with the 380.

Effigy
June 6, 2011, 12:35 PM
@ Reasoned1: If you were actually going to an armed conflict, I think you'd bring a service pistol, a rifle, extra mags for both, probably a combat knife, body armor if you have it, and an IFAK. Now would you actually EDC all that stuff? I doubt it, because you know full well you have about a 0.01% chance of needing it on any given day. This is why CCW is a compromise between the perceived risk of needing to defend oneself and the inconvenience of being fully prepared for that encounter.

lobo9er
June 6, 2011, 01:08 PM
Just uncovering the weapon cannot be construed as brandishing
Unless bad guy calls cops first and says you showed them your gun in a threatening manner. which may be felony depending on where it happens.
Or another scenario, Bad guy has a high powered rifle and reason to believe you are "only" armed with a hand gun. Lots of angles to argue on that post. I would say showing off your piece is a bad play that may have worked out in this particular situation.
Also like someone else pointed out if he showed off a ruger LCP same out come may have happened. Its anyones guess.

the count
June 6, 2011, 02:30 PM
Ok, brandishing is defined differently in states as the example in AZ showed. They seem to have the most common sense. In any case brandishing is a misdemeanor, not a felony. We are starting to split hairs. I consider this thread closed.

Reasoned1
June 6, 2011, 09:21 PM
Like I said, "Within the limits of what dress and concealability requirements dictate...". I do, however, carry a knife. Unfortunately, I can't afford the vest, and the rifle and mags are definitely not concealable. Don't get me wrong, there are times when I carry an LCP, because my XD45 is too big to conceal and I'd rather have something. My point is that people who nonchalantly elect little guns over big guns don't take the risk of attack very seriously.

pockets
June 7, 2011, 08:05 AM
A CCW is not a "Snuggie" blanket, one size does not fit all.
Everyone is different, with different requirements, preferences, strengths, etc.
Without knowing the individual and all of their factors, I would not brand anyone's carry choice as nonchalant, or that they do not take the risk of attack very seriously.
If someone chooses to carry a full size pistol and it works for them, wonderful! If not, wonderful! What works is what works.

.

LUPUS
June 7, 2011, 09:08 AM
I do prefer handling and shooting comfort over carrying comfort...

stanmo
June 7, 2011, 12:42 PM
I prefer carry comfort since I don't do much handling and shooting when I'm out and about. A "J" frame works for me.

gunsablazin
June 7, 2011, 01:10 PM
I carry a 5" 1911 almost every day. there are times, and place though where it's just too big. Thats the time for a J-frame for me. Carry what you like, but nothing less than .38spl+P for me.

ET
June 7, 2011, 03:24 PM
I find the trend toward lighter and lighter firearms, along with the trend toward guns like the Judge (which to me seems marketed toward individuals that are less likely to be trained or practice with firearms to any meaningful extent) to be questionable.

I simply think that many of the ultra-small, ultra-light guns on the market are ending up in the hands of people better served with a non-lethal weapon. I personally know of at least seven individuals who have purchased LCP's and LCR's, who are more likely to injure themselves or have the gun taken from them if they ever attempt to use it in self defense. I'm not being flippant on this one. They are neither mechanically inclined enought or serious enough about being able to adequately shoot the gun to be safe with one in my opinion. I think that carrying a handgun for self defense is a serious matter, and while everyone should be entitled to defend themselves there are many who are either unwilling or incapable of mastering a firearm for self-defense. Like the absurd comic skits with cell-phones that are to small to dial, I think that making these guns so small and light is actually making them easy to carry, but less easy to use, and less pleasant to shoot, which can lead to them being seldom practiced with. Combine that with someone who likes the low price and has never handled a firearm before and you have trouble. Here in Vermont you can walk into a gunstore and walk out ten minutes later with a handgun as long as you aren't a felon. No training required, no skills, no license. Plus, you can then pocket the gun and legally carry it on you with no permit or training. You can begin to see the problem.

As far as non-lethal weapons, I think that not every self-defense encounter needs to be deadly, and not everyone is prepared to take a human life, even in self defense. This is what lead to my pepper spray and stun-gun reference.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. It was not my intention. I maintain my opinion of these smaller/lighter weapons, but it's just that, my opinion, and worth no more or less than anyone elses.

frequently tongue in cheek,
Hastings

The great thing about this country is that you can think what you want about other people who are carrying these smaller guns, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. The person who trains religiously probably will perform better in a high stress situation, but that doesn't mean that the person you have judged as not being worthy of carrying a gun will do poorly. It will all come down to the "fight or flight" mechanism kicking in. Some people are wired to handle stress better/differently than others. Training might help overcome the urge to flight, but it is no guarantee. You might think you know what these people will do in that situation, but you can't be sure. Plus these people have every right to carry that small gun as you do your full size pistol that you carry.

I own a bug gun (a TCP), but it is just that...a Back Up Gun (BUG). They are designed to be a back up to the larger gun that might be taken away from you since it's sitting out there in the open. The only time I rely on the TCP is when I just wouldn't be capable of carrying anything else. Guns in the hands of ordinary citizens is a right we shouldn't question...that is until they shoot us at the range because they don't know what they are doing.:uhoh:

OldCavSoldier
June 7, 2011, 07:11 PM
What's the old saying? "Any gun will do, if you will do." Kinda says it all for me!

Reasoned1
June 7, 2011, 08:06 PM
I am hardly questioning anyone's right to carry what they please (and of course one had best be proficient in their choice). Insinuating so is a silly over-reaction. I only maintain that it is illogical, if one carries a gun in case their life or the lives of their loved ones are endangered, to carry a gun less capable than one that could be carried under the circumstances. This is especially true since the difference in carrying comfort between large and small guns is minimal at best.

LUPUS
June 7, 2011, 08:34 PM
I prefer carry comfort since I don't do much handling and shooting when I'm out and about. A "J" frame works for me.
That may be true until SHTF...But when the time comes, the reverse may be valid...

Effigy
June 7, 2011, 08:46 PM
In that situation you'd need more than what you're carrying anyway. You can't plan your EDC system around some end of the world scenario if you want to get anything done in real life.

tinygnat219
June 8, 2011, 08:21 AM
the count,

After actually carrying several different so-called sub compact guns incl. SW Bodyguard 38, KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP I came to the conclusion that the all suck firepower wise. Please, don't get back with comments like 'one well placed round between the eyes....' bla bla bla. I have not been in an actual gunfight (thank god) but have several advanced combat pistol courses under the belt and guys, even with these simulations its TOTALLY different from standing at the range with a stationary target 7 yards away. I now carry either a XDM9 with a whopping 19 round mag or a GLOCK 30SF with 13 rounds of 45 ACP. Slightly more uncomfortable? Maybe. Peace of mind? Tons better.

Saw your post and I had to comment as I did the same thing. I've had a bit of a revelation in terms of what I carry. After a bit of a hair-raising incident involving a tense scene with 3 people in a dark place one night, I came to the conclusion that my Kel-Tec P3AT with one magazine was too small, there wasn't enough ammo, and that after those 6 rounds, I'd be hosed. So, I went through my safe and sold off every one of my micro-guns lest I give into the temptation of what I call "comfort carry".

I've literally carried all kinds of microguns from the aforementioned P3AT, the Ruger LCP, and a Colt Pony Pocketlite. The smallest gun I now carry is a 640 J-frame S&W in .357 Magnum and that's mainly for a Back Up Gun. The main gun I carry now is a Glock 19. The Glock 19 to me represents an almost perfect balance of capacity, shootability and concealability. I find it's easily concealed with the right holster and a good belt. I carry it all day with no issues, I shoot it at the range without grimacing, and with the Beltman belt and a Comptac IWB holster, it's carried out of sight and out of mind. Yeah, there are times when a smaller gun is more convenient but those times are few and far between. I simply dress around the gun a bit more and I go about my business.
I don't regret selling off those micro-guns at all. In fact, I feel it was a wise decision.

lobo9er
June 8, 2011, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Hastings
I find the trend toward lighter and lighter firearms, along with the trend toward guns like the Judge (which to me seems marketed toward individuals that are less likely to be trained or practice with firearms to any meaningful extent) to be questionable.

I simply think that many of the ultra-small, ultra-light guns on the market are ending up in the hands of people better served with a non-lethal weapon. I personally know of at least seven individuals who have purchased LCP's and LCR's, who are more likely to injure themselves or have the gun taken from them if they ever attempt to use it in self defense. I'm not being flippant on this one. They are neither mechanically inclined enought or serious enough about being able to adequately shoot the gun to be safe with one in my opinion. I think that carrying a handgun for self defense is a serious matter, and while everyone should be entitled to defend themselves there are many who are either unwilling or incapable of mastering a firearm for self-defense. Like the absurd comic skits with cell-phones that are to small to dial, I think that making these guns so small and light is actually making them easy to carry, but less easy to use, and less pleasant to shoot, which can lead to them being seldom practiced with. Combine that with someone who likes the low price and has never handled a firearm before and you have trouble. Here in Vermont you can walk into a gunstore and walk out ten minutes later with a handgun as long as you aren't a felon. No training required, no skills, no license. Plus, you can then pocket the gun and legally carry it on you with no permit or training. You can begin to see the problem.

As far as non-lethal weapons, I think that not every self-defense encounter needs to be deadly, and not everyone is prepared to take a human life, even in self defense. This is what lead to my pepper spray and stun-gun reference.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. It was not my intention. I maintain my opinion of these smaller/lighter weapons, but it's just that, my opinion, and worth no more or less than anyone elses.

frequently tongue in cheek,
Hastings

he should move to ny or like sate and see how the permit process keeps everyone so much more safe. or his comments are sarcasm I just didnt pick up what he was putting down.

lobo9er
June 8, 2011, 09:33 PM
what was the gun owner club the liberal/democrats started?

JerryM
June 8, 2011, 09:55 PM
Carry what gives "peace of mind."
I have peace of mind whether I carry my 1911 Compact, G 26, Kahr P9, Smith 642, or KTP3AT. I carry the P3AT most of the time because it is convenient on my dresser in a Fobus Paddle. As much peace as my 1911.

Regards,
Jerry

Reasoned1
June 9, 2011, 06:57 AM
"Peace of mind" is fine, but it shouldn'tbe confused with logic.

wheelguy
June 11, 2011, 03:18 PM
Some collective wisdom from people who have studied this appears to be...

1. # of rounds fired most often in a fight = 1.
2. Any hand gun is a poor man stopper - including .357 magnum and .45 ACP. What you need in a gun fight is a rifle.
3. If any gun appears, most BGs run.
4. Big/heavy guns are carried much less often than small/lighter guns.
5. In a fight, any gun is better than no gun.

Conclusion: The most important thing in selecting a gun to carry isn't caliber or number of rounds - it is that you will actually carry it. 2nd most important consideration - you can hit the target with it reliably. Given the answer to those questions, your choice of gun and caliber will probably have already been made.

Homerboy
June 11, 2011, 04:32 PM
If it makes you feel better to carry a big gun, then go for it. But please don't assume that smaller guns are useless. I am a retired cop, and I have seen LOTS of shootings When someone opens up with a .22, the bad guys scatter for the hills. Missing 10 times with a .45 is useless. Hitting ONCE with a .380 is much better. I carry a S&W CS9 and I'm on the hunt for something even MORE comfortable (in 9MM). I have full size guns and would never carry them concealed. I can't even imagine strapping my Beretta 92 to my hip to go to Walmart. If I'm REALLY paranoid (which I'm not), I'll throw another 7 round mag into my pocket. The VAST majority of us will go through life without even drawing a weapon in a self defense situation, much less firing it. Somebody looks down the barrel of your Ruger LCP, and they're either gonna run or die. Carrying 40 ounces on my hip or in my waistband is NOT gonna happen.

Autolycus
June 12, 2011, 01:53 AM
I agree with you. I feel better with my Glock 19 and 15+1 rounds of Speer Gold Dot. But I have friends who feel comfortable with a snub-nosed revolver or a Walther PPK. I myself just love my Glock 19 and I can carry it comfortably, so why not? Not to mention all of my guns are Glock 9mms so it is easier to stock up on one caliber. But if you feel comfortable carrying a .380 ACP or something smaller, then go ahead and carry it. Whatever makes you comfortable is what I think is best.

Ally
June 12, 2011, 01:29 PM
This thread has been an interesting read. I've seen a lot of chest-thumping, and a lot of reasonably-minded folks post. My question for the guys who won't carry anything smaller than a full-size 1911 or else they'll be "underpowered", what do all your wives carry? Anybody have a petite wife or girlfriend?

Are they able to conceal a G22 in their waistband? How about an XD45? And it's not the least bit noticeable? Hmmm.....

For the people on their soapboxes pontificating about how one shouldn't even carry or OWN a gun if it's just going to be a silly little, ineffective, pocket pistol, I have a very different perspective. I've read a LOT about "comfort carry". What about absolute concealability? I weigh about 120# and attempting to conceal one of the "big guns" is laughable.

I own two 9mm pistols, both for cc. I have taken quite a bit of training in marksmanship, as well as SD shooting with these guns. The largest gun I can safely conceal is a single-stack 9mm, so I own a PF-9. With a minituck holster, it's well-concealed for the summertime.

I also own a G26, which WAS going to be my EDC. However, the double stack stuck out like a sore thumb under any summer clothing. So that gun has been relegated to home protection, and I can cc it in the winter. Sometimes.

I just sit here a tad aghast at those of you who poo-poo smaller caliber "plastic guns". Again, what are your wives carrying?? I'm sure a lot of your wives do not carry, but I do and so do a lot of small-framed women. My very first consideration in what kind of gun to own for cc is ability to conceal; everything else works around that. Once I worked out what I am able to conceal, I bought those guns, learned how to use them, and practice regularly.

For those who think that because I'm female I could/should put a full-sized weapon in a purse, that is not a consideration at all. I believe if one is going to cc, the weapon needs to be on your body. Carrying around loaded guns in purses, bags, etc. can end up being used against you. Once the bg grabs your purse, then he's got your credit cards, etc. PLUS your gun. Then what? In my mind, the security of my weapon is as important as what I'm carrying.

As for these comments:

Originally Posted by Hastings
I can carry an N-frame in my front pocket with my shirt untucked and have nobody be the wiser, so a J-frame in a pocket holster seems perfectly reasonable unless fashion is more of an issue than security. In that case, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying at all.

Arrogant. Offensive. Short-sighted.

Originally Posted by Hastings
I simply think that many of the ultra-small, ultra-light guns on the market are ending up in the hands of people better served with a non-lethal weapon.

Ignorant.

Reasoned1
June 12, 2011, 02:25 PM
When it comes to stopping power, which is what you want when your life's in danger, statistics show that a .22 is less capable than a .380, that a .380 is less capable than a 9mm, that a 9mm is less capable than a .45, and probably so on. Sure, a .22 can kill, and an LCP might scare some surprised perps but, in preparing for the possible need to use deadly force, it makes more sense to rely on what experience tells us happens MOST of the time--not to mention simple physics. My point is that I think anyone who carries in preparation for a possible scenario where the use of deadly force is necessary to defend life and loved ones (described in most town newspapers every week, if not every day) ought to try to carry the most capable means of self-defense possible under those circumstances that individual must operate under (the stakes certainly justify it). It's fine to carry whatever mouse gun comforts you, just don't think you're actually serious about having to use it.

ripp
June 12, 2011, 02:33 PM
do you refer to "statistics" by Evan Marshall? It's been well documented that he just makes stuff up as he goes along. The few times that he HAS revealed his "sources", his claims did not match the documentation.

Pocket guns belong in pocket holsters. In a belt rig, you can have a real gun and load, so why carry a mousegun in that manner?
When I was 17 and weighed 160 lbs, I sometimes ccw'd a 7.5" barreled Cap and ball .44 revolver under a shirttail, as i rode my motorcycle and so on. It can be done. I used the calvaryman's carry, butt forward behind the off side hip. It was not fast to access, but it was with me.

That having been said, all I bother with is a Keltec PF9 in a front pants pocket rig, altho there is an SKS in the vehicle, and an M4 at home.

If you carry anything short of a hot 9mm load, be prepared to shove it up under his chin and empty the mag into his palate, cause that is quite likely what you will have to do, if just the sight of your gun does not suffice (which it does, 90% of the time)

the count
June 12, 2011, 07:07 PM
As for these comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hastings
I can carry an N-frame in my front pocket with my shirt untucked and have nobody be the wiser, so a J-frame in a pocket holster seems perfectly reasonable unless fashion is more of an issue than security. In that case, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying at all.


Arrogant. Offensive. Short-sighted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hastings
I simply think that many of the ultra-small, ultra-light guns on the market are ending up in the hands of people better served with a non-lethal weapon.

Ignorant.
Hmmm Ally, OP here... we really do not call each other ignorant or otherwise insult others on this board. You don't agree with somebody, it's your prerogative but do not think your opinion is somehow is more important and thus warrant mud slinging...

Art Eatman
June 12, 2011, 07:24 PM
Ignorant = not knowing. No big deal. I'm ignorant about astro-physics and abstract mathematics. Not the same thing as calling somebody stupid.

But six pages of arguing is way more than enough, looks like.

lobo9er
June 13, 2011, 02:27 PM
gotta side with Ally.

I challenge that the OP will carry less than someone with smaller more concealable firearms to also choose from. IMHO.

Rail Driver
June 13, 2011, 02:36 PM
I challenge that the OP will carry less than someone with smaller more concealable firearms to also choose from. IMHO.

I don't agree with this entirely. Before I got my G26 I carried a Colt 1911 Commander every day, all day. Other people may handle the situation differently, but if I've only got one gun whether it's full size, compact or subcompact, I'll be carrying. If all I have is large pistols, I'll carry a large one. If I only own small pistols I'll carry a small one. If I have both, then I'll carry large or small depending on the situation and circumstances.

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 03:10 PM
I own two 9mm pistols, both for cc. I have taken quite a bit of training in marksmanship, as well as SD shooting with these guns.

My my, it was just a little while back that you were asking where to get classes. Congrats. :)

The largest gun I can safely conceal is a single-stack 9mm, so I own a PF-9.

I had a friend that I dated briefly who had the same problem. Even my 1911 commander looked like a howitzer in anything more snugly fitting than a circus tent on her.

I challenge that the OP will carry less than someone with smaller more concealable firearms to also choose from. IMHO.

That's a matter of opinion. I carry a glock 19 (I consider it closer to full size than compact)quite often. The days that I don't carry it, I'm carrying a glock 26. The days that I don't carry either are the days I can't legally carry at all. The last girl I dated asked to bring over a few holsters for her to try once she got her concealed carry because she remembered always being shocked to find a glock 19 on my hip despite looking me over.

I say carry the largest one you can comfortably conceal and run effectively. If that's a pf-9, fine. I'm not the biggest guy out there, but I can still wear flattering clothes and conceal a glock 19 sized sidearm so that's what I carry. I can carry it in a t shirt and shorts or jeans just fine with my build. Some days I carry the 26 when my clothes fit a little more snugly. When I carried a fullsized 1911 or commander sized 1911, I could wear pretty much anything I wanted.

To each his or her own, no need to chastise each other over it. :)

I do have one current problem, I have nothing to wear in gym clothes. I can't carry legally at the gym, but in-between the gym and home is a problem. Currently, I just avoid stopping or take a belt and a change of clothes.

lobo9er
June 13, 2011, 03:51 PM
If all I have is large pistols, I'll carry a large one. I think there maybe times where it just wont be a possibilty. maybe i'm wrong.

If I have both, then I'll carry large or small depending on the situation and circumstances.

+1 I agree

To each his or her own, no need to chastise each other over it.

+1 I agree.

ripp
June 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
There's what you do if you are forced to, and there's what is handy-comfortable. The pocket 9 can handle anything that is likely to be feasible or needed, so that is what gets my vote, worn in a front pants pocket holster, with the gun hand on it, if anything seems amiss. Being the first one to get the gun "out" and pointed is worth a lot more than being the one with the big, heavy gun, trying to draw after being shot with a pocket 9. :-)

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 04:36 PM
Being the first one to get the gun "out" and pointed is worth a lot more than being the one with the big, heavy gun, trying to draw after being shot with a pocket 9. :-)Yeah but here's the thing, that is a two way street. Unless I'm wearing realllllly loose fitting pants with huge pockets; I can draw from concealment IWB or OWB faster than I can draw from the pocket...with any size pistol. I really, really tried very hard to work with pocket carry and found it isn't for me. Anytime I try to draw from a pocket holster on a shot timer, the results are just downright disgraceful. Whatever works for you, more power to you. :)

MCgunner
June 13, 2011, 05:40 PM
:rolleyes: I plan to keep mine, and my .38 revolvers. My Kel Tec is P11, can get 12 shot mags for it, but mine are the 10 rounders. I'm not going to be laying down suppressive fire with it, after all. The P11 will pocket carry just fine and mine shoots to POA 3.5" groups off the bench at 25 yards, ultimately accurate off hand with it. Some weinies don't like the DA trigger, but I find it very nice, smooth, revolver like, if a little long. It's quite safe to carry with that DAO trigger. I'm not a Glock "safe action" fan. And, I'm so unconcerned with firepower for self defense that I often, as the last couple of weeks, carry my .38 revolver in a pocket.

I wear cargo jeans most of the time, or carpenter's jeans. They have large pockets. I walk around in parking lots and such in "condition orange" areas with my hand ON my weapon in my pocket. I think I'm faster with it there than IWB and IWB just plain sux in south Texas 11 months out of the year, anyway. It hit 101 today and the humidity is killer. Belt carry is NOT an option for me. But, it's an indiviaual call, I suppose.

Homerboy
June 13, 2011, 05:52 PM
Here's the thing: everyone who takes the time to post on forums like these is a gun enthusiast. That doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. Take a stroll over to youtube and watch some of the gun videos. MANY of those posters barely know which is the dangerous end of the gun. I laugh at the guy who maxed out his credit card at the BlackHawk website and now thinks he's an "operator" We all know what a mall ninja is and laugh at them. Problem is that mall ninjas are members of this board, and like to pass themselves off as experts. As a retired cop who has seen what bullets do to a body, a .380 to the chest is gonna put a world of hurt on the receiver and will end the fight 99% of the time. Fact is, the MAJORITY of gun owners will go their entire lives without drawing their weapon, much less firing it. You think a badguy is gonna differentiate between a .380 and a .45? Please. Making statements like "be prepared to put the muzzle of that 380 under the soft palate and have to empty the gun to end the threat" are just plain ludicrous.

bimmerland
June 19, 2011, 11:46 PM
Has anybody taken into consideration the local laws that might dictate what they carry. In the summer there is no way I can carry my G19 or G26 comfortably especially wearing shorts. If someone wants to get rid of all their CCW guns that their own choice if they can carry a large gun all the time more power to them but where I live CCW is necessary because of stringent laws that don't allow OC in my town. I would rather have my .380 then nothing at all. Plus I don't need more than a couple of JHP's to hurt anyone period.

shootingthebreeze
June 20, 2011, 10:04 AM
I like comments from retired police like Homerboy because of their experience. The comment that most people will never deploy a firearm is so true-and when adding situational awareness, avoiding "red zones" and using common sense decreases the chance of attack even further.
I like Ally's comment as well-very good points relating to women carrying.
The key is practice and weapons familiarization. The more you practice the better you will become.

shootingthebreeze
June 20, 2011, 11:38 AM
I agree with Ally relating to Hastings comments especially the one which states that light firearms should be in the hands of those who should not have a lethal weapon.
Quite shortsighted and fails to address the fact that most engagements will be at 10 feet or less. Ally's PF-9 at 10 feet or less will be deadly. In the US Army my side arm was a .45 and it was strictly to be used for close in defense, not used as an artillery piece lobbing .45 rounds at 50 meters. 10 feet or less.
If an engagement will occur and that is a great if per Homerboy, it will be close in and personal. A 9mm is going to ruin a perp's day. Ally's choice of the PF-9 is excellent-

*NOVA*
June 21, 2011, 09:30 AM
After reading 6 pages of comments on this subject I feel I am making a better informed decision. My next purchase will be a Bodyguard 380 and I intend to carry it in a pocket holster. During hot weather it is the only pracrtical solution for me. After considering all the pros and cons, to me it boils down to the fact that I have a license to conceal carry, but I do not want it to be obvious to everyone what I carry - A good pocket holster allows me to do just that. Small as it is, it might kick like a mule, but I intend to practice at the range. Practice with what I have until I am as good as I can be with that particular weapon, regardless of its limitations.

shootingthebreeze
June 21, 2011, 11:25 AM
Bigger is not necessarily better-especially in an urban environment.
Ally's choice is excellent-PF-9, 9mm, affordable, good quality as I read and easily concealed. I checked yesterday at a gun dealer $333. Not bad for a 9.
Nova, most important to understand is that engagement will be less than 10 feet. Mix that with an urban environment, bigger is not necessarily better. Homerboy brings up the fact of control-better be more accurate with a .380 or 9 than a .45.
And again, practice and weapons familiarization. Most important.

SonofGilnockie89
June 22, 2011, 01:40 AM
I carry my Glock 19 most of the time, but NEVER feel undergunned with my Kahr CW9. If I were reasonably sure I would encounter armed adversaries, I would prefer my AR over any pistol I own. Just my $0.02........which doesn't matter anymore due to inflation.

doc2rn
June 22, 2011, 02:32 AM
I am just waiting on the PMR 30, and for those of us who have recoil sensitivity some of the smaller mouse guns are ideal.

wheelguy
June 25, 2011, 11:26 AM
Doc - You're going to love the PMR-30 for fixing the recoil sensitivity problem.

I own both the PMR-30 and Five-seveN, and the PMR-30 kicks noticeably less. Just be sure to polish the chamber to prevent FTFs.

Both work well at 6:00, but may also work at 11:00 or 4:00 depending on dress and body shape.

ojibweindian
July 24, 2011, 09:18 AM
I'd like to weigh in, although it's a bit late into the discussion.

I've messed around with small-ish pistols, and have found that a small gun gets "lost" in my large hands when drawing from concealed. Also, because small guns are, well, small, things like slide stops, safeties, etc are kind of packed in with each other closely, making manipulation an exercise in fumbling futility, especially when done at speed.

Fortunately, God has blessed me with a generally mesomorphic body type, though a bit out of shape (a condition I am correcting), and I've no problem in concealing full-sized handguns. So, instead of railing against what I've been dealt, I chose to "go with the flow" and carry large framed pistols.

That being said, I do, occasionally, have to go small. When I do, I carry a J-Frame S&W Model 60 snubby. With it, I don't have to worry about accidentally engaging the slide stop, safety, or mag release. My only real issue is that there are only 5 rounds of 38 Special on tap; that's really mostly a "mental" thing on my part.

Personally, I do think that there's a place in everyone's collection for a small CCW type weapon. For many, a small CCW piece is just fine as an everyday thing, and for others, such as myself, it serves well when one absolutely cannot be made.

contender
July 24, 2011, 02:21 PM
late to the party as well...........

been carrying a "J" frame smith for over 25 years now while off-duty. I see no reason to change and to throw 25 years of practice and muscle memory away since i have been more or less "married" to the snub and pocket carry.

i have entertained thoughts to go to an auto............much like this discussion....entertaining.

Problem is, i have already been accustomed to pocket carry of the snub and years of clothing habits. i am not about to go thru a wardrobe change, costs, and other expendatures this late in the game to conceal a more substantial weapon. Tried that at the start of my career and quickly discovered the benefits of the snub on a poor man's salary vs additional belts, holsters, and dressing around a weapon.

Off course back then, there was no internet, autos were not allowed for duty, and shooting schools/handgun courses and "experts" selling you their dogma were far and few.


carry what you wish......you are the only person you have to please........not everyone can walk a mile in your shoes nor would they probably want to.

ojibweindian
July 24, 2011, 04:39 PM
late to the party as well...........

been carrying a "J" frame smith for over 25 years now while off-duty. I see no reason to change and to throw 25 years of practice and muscle memory away since i have been more or less "married" to the snub and pocket carry.

i have entertained thoughts to go to an auto............much like this discussion....entertaining.

Problem is, i have already been accustomed to pocket carry of the snub and years of clothing habits. i am not about to go thru a wardrobe change, costs, and other expendatures this late in the game to conceal a more substantial weapon. Tried that at the start of my career and quickly discovered the benefits of the snub on a poor man's salary vs additional belts, holsters, and dressing around a weapon.

Off course back then, there was no internet, autos were not allowed for duty, and shooting schools/handgun courses and "experts" selling you their dogma were far and few.


carry what you wish......you are the only person you have to please........not everyone can walk a mile in your shoes nor would they probably want to.
Well said.

shootingthebreeze
July 24, 2011, 08:17 PM
There is a lot of research that has to go into "pocket" .380 pistols. High quality, comfort, accuracy, all those factors have to mesh which finally came together with my choice of the Kahr P380.
The Kahr P380 fits the bill to include its excellent sights.

rwilson37643
July 24, 2011, 10:50 PM
I've got to admit that I didn't read all of the posts on this thread, but I understand where the op is comming from. My training padner and I have been doing some force on force training with airsoft pistols. we both shoot master class in I.D.P. and I have been an NRA instructor for 15 years, but even at ranges of 5-15 yards we have found that hitting a moving human while trying not to get shot is hard. we miss compleetly 25-35% of the time and periferal hits are the norm. it certainly leads one to believe that in a self defence situation more rounds that pack more punch is a good thing.

Rexster
July 24, 2011, 11:23 PM
Peace of mind is good! For me, I want a weapon that fills my hand, without being overly large, with a grip that allows me to really lock onto the weapon, because gunfights tend to happen at contact distance. For this reason, when I have a choice, I would rather not carry a double-stack service pistol. (In uniform, I must carry a double-stack .40; no choice.)

When I do carry a P229 concealed, on my own time, it is an SAS version, which gives very little traction for an opponent to use against me, but likely as not, I carry revolvers on my own time, though they are not tiny J-frames, but SP101 or larger. My fingers and thumbs being relatively short and skinny, an SP101 fills my grip quite well, performing more like a service handgun that a pocket pistol, especially the 3" version, which has a bit more sight radius and more-forward balance.

If an SP101 is the biggest gun I am carrying, I will carry two or sometimes even three of them, to be able to stay in the fight longer. If a 4" revolver is the "primary" weapon, I will usually have a snubby with me, too. Peace of mind IS a good thing.

TreeDoc
July 25, 2011, 03:06 AM
The 642 for me, while lacking in capacity at 5, it is light and easy to conceal and almost 100% reliable (nothings 100%). I have service autos with hi-caps and could conceal them if the need arised. Long gone are my outlaw days and I just don't go or hang around the high risk areas or people anymore. So I'll play the percentages and carry my 5. It may not be enough, but then again you might get hit by a bus and die anyway, your hi-cap gun or my J smith will be smushed into our bodies equally.

OldCavSoldier
July 25, 2011, 07:21 PM
I seem to recall several years ago the FBI or some other federal or big-name law enforcement organization (NYPD??? LAPD??? Dade Cty Sheriff???) did a study that found that the average total number of rounds fired in the average gunfight in the US is 3.4

Why would I need 18 shots? Spray and pray?

SharpsDressedMan
July 25, 2011, 08:23 PM
3.4 rounds? How can that be when we have some police shootings where two to five cops empty their 9mm hi caps at a suspect? :confused::D

WinThePennant
July 25, 2011, 08:39 PM
I think people are misunderstanding why you have a pocket gun for CCW.

You wear it when a larger gun doesn't work with what you're wearing that day. Also, pocket pistols aren't meant to be fun range guns. Most of the pocket nines make your hand hurt like hell in short order. Pocket pistols are for one thing, and one thing only. And, that is to get your bacon out of the fryer.

Most people who conceal carry full-size guns usually don't pass the gun-check test. Just randomly ask them if they have that 40-ounce 1911 strapped on. Most likely they will give you an excuse. "Oh, I was in a hurry." "It wasn't convenient to go back and get it."

Yeah... right.

armoredman
July 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
Win, that wouldn't work with me, it's on me. :)
Yes, FBI stats say 3.5 rounds fired, including both sides, certainly. That's an average, meaning many were only one round fired, and many with more than 3.5 rounds fired. I have no idea which type of encounter I may have, and while I hope that I may pass away at a great old age without ever having to fire a round in defense of self or family, I also don't want to die much earlier for a lack of be able to shoot back. Nobody ever complained of having too much ammo in a gunfight, I do believe, but then again, I have been wrong before. I will continue to carry a larger sidearm with more ammo, maybe even a back up gun, and some will laugh, point, say the jokes' on me, and I'll smile, wave, and keep on keeping on. Everyone has their thing. :)

the.erastus
July 25, 2011, 10:19 PM
Make mine 1911 45ACP. Slow muzzle velocity or not, enough to ventilate the largest of chests.

Armybrat
July 25, 2011, 10:25 PM
3.5 rounds.......three shots and a squib?

:confused: ;)

EMC45
July 26, 2011, 11:05 AM
I carry a J Frame Smith (.38, .32) or a Glock 36. I have reloads onboard and am confident with all 3. Why a .32? It fits, is accurate and will kill you.

I_Am_NOT_Lost
July 27, 2011, 12:52 AM
True story.

mrt949
July 27, 2011, 12:35 PM
I have 3 PISTOLS in MY CC ROTATION .
SEECAMP 32. ALWAYS
SW MP 40 C.CAR GUN
RUGER SP101 357 MAG
I FEEL THIS IS ENOUGH FIRE POWER FOR ANYTHING I WILL RUN IN TO,

DoomGoober
July 27, 2011, 02:52 PM
The best firepower for self defense would be a mounted GAU-8 Avenger gatling gun... of course, it's a little expensive and slightly heavy for carry (620 pounds.)

The best gun is the one you have. 99% of the usefulness of a gun are it's qualities while NOT being used -- does it holster nice, clean easily, weigh little enough to carry, not get snagged... whatever keeps it on you, instead of in the gun safe. If you're willing and like to carry full sized, do it.

A rifle has much more firepower than a pistol -- yet few will carry a rifle for self defense.

langenc
July 27, 2011, 03:04 PM
as far as needing a dozen rounds--statistically gun fights are over with less than 3 rounds in much less than 5 seconds.

mburmaster
July 28, 2011, 09:40 AM
my opinion is to get training practice, practice, practice because two or more well placed shots are better than two or more missed shots

jackpinesavages
July 28, 2011, 09:51 AM
Yup, work on the software, not the hardware.

While the OP may poo poo head-shots, they are the only way to train.

IBEWBULL
September 18, 2011, 01:25 AM
I think many of us don't think of where some other people live or travel.
The difference in being prepared could be drastic.
Most places in Wisconsin a 5 shot .38 would be more than enough.
Chances are it will be used to put down an injured deer before anything more confrontational. Not that I recommend illegally shooting a deer. That is the job of the DNR or Sheriff.
Now on the other hand if your travel requires you to unknown places. Well the comfort level may be a nice 1911 or Browning HP and possibly a B.U.G.
When on a trip west years ago I was compelled to take a Glock 20 and 640 Smith. The 10 mm stayed in the fanny pack in the van .38 in a 9R Bianchi.
Think geography and local environment when planing your trek. Always be prepared like the BSA motto.

millertyme
September 18, 2011, 03:02 AM
I only have one caliber of handgun that isn't a .22LR and I hope that the ten rounds in the magazine will be sufficient but if not I have an additional magazine on standby. However, I used to carry a CZ75B both open and concealed depending on the days activities.

chihuahuatn
September 18, 2011, 10:35 PM
Here's the thing: everyone who takes the time to post on forums like these is a gun enthusiast. That doesn't mean that they know what they are doing. Take a stroll over to youtube and watch some of the gun videos. MANY of those posters barely know which is the dangerous end of the gun. I laugh at the guy who maxed out his credit card at the BlackHawk website and now thinks he's an "operator" We all know what a mall ninja is and laugh at them. Problem is that mall ninjas are members of this board, and like to pass themselves off as experts. As a retired cop who has seen what bullets do to a body, a .380 to the chest is gonna put a world of hurt on the receiver and will end the fight 99% of the time. Fact is, the MAJORITY of gun owners will go their entire lives without drawing their weapon, much less firing it. You think a badguy is gonna differentiate between a .380 and a .45? Please. Making statements like "be prepared to put the muzzle of that 380 under the soft palate and have to empty the gun to end the threat" are just plain ludicrous.

Homerboy, I agree with your comments completely!

thefamcnaj
September 19, 2011, 12:20 AM
I carry my g27 with a stock mag because its easier to conseal than witha +2 extention. I feel like 10 rounds of 40 is plenty just being out and about during the day. At night or if I'm going into a bad area I'll carry a g23 mag which puts me up to 23 rounds of 40. If I need more than that, then I picked a bad day to go out.

wheelguy
September 19, 2011, 10:47 AM
Saw an educational video on the news this year. Perp entered a PD with a pump shotgun and one officer engaged him about 3 feet away with his side arm, holding what appeared to be a Glock (probably a .40) in one hand. Officer got off 6 shots before he dove for cover - they all missed the perp. Lessons learned - aim first, then fire; aim for COM, not head.

itsallgood
October 2, 2011, 07:34 PM
I don't think a sub compact is an under-gunned scenario. A glock 26 or 27 with 9-11 rounds is a very solid defensive weapon, especially with a glock 17 or 22 mag for a second. I actually shot my glock 26 as well if not better than my 17 as the double recoil spring lightened recoil a great deal. I also have a J frame 340PD and 5 rounds of 357 with 1-2 speed loaders is just fine with me over a 20-30 oz glock. However, I live in the communist state of California and couldn't get a carry permit if my life depended on it. Pun intended.

Dean1818
October 2, 2011, 08:38 PM
In my humble opinion the 9mm is a good SD round....

But...... what if....... you were only able to get 1 or 2 shots
Which I believe is MOST interactions for the public CCW person
in a scrape (a guestimation)



If 1 or 2 rounds is all you get, 25 rounds unused of a smaller caliber
arent going to matter

Would you TRULY want a 22..... a 380....or a 9... or a 45?

For me...... 8+1 in an M&P 45 compact became the best answer

I would take the bigger hole in the BG

csa77
October 2, 2011, 11:10 PM
in a self defense scenario what are the odds you'll need 18rnds of 9mm or 12rnds of .45?
18/12 rounds are gun fight scenarios and not self defense IMO.

Id rather have 5-6 shots of .38 or .357 and know that its not gonna fail to feed or fail to eject on the second shot(revolver).

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