Why doesn't the 10mm get more love from the manufactures


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JROC
June 2, 2011, 07:14 PM
Let me start by saying that back in January I decided that I wanted to get a new pistol. I really wanted a M&P, but more than a M&P I wanted a 10mm. Seeing as how S&W doesn't make a M&P 10 I decided to go with a Glock 20SF. I was never really a Glock fan before, but after getting my 20 I have learned to straight love this gun. It is very good, and I like it way more than I thought I would.

I have a hard time admitting it, but my Glock might(might) have taking the place of my Colt CE as my favorite pistol and I've like 1911's for a long time. I have been way more impressed with the 10mm round than I ever was with .45 ACP. I don't want to just sound like I'm trying to put the .45 ACP down as it's a good round that's a very traditional American round, and has plenty of knock down power it's just the 10mm is much better IMO. It shoots faster, straighter, farther, hits harder, and is just a much more modern, and versatile round as you can get 10mm rounds that hit like a .40 cal all the way up to .357 Mag power or more, and anywhere in between. Other semi-auto rounds I've fired are .380, 9mm, .40 cal, and .45 ACP and to me pretty much all of them are outclassed in most ways by the 10mm. I understand that you're not going to pop shots off as quickly when comparing heavy 10mm loads to a 9, but still with light to medium 10mm loads I can get them off pretty quickly, and be accurate enough.

I don't want to come off as some arrogant fanboy as I know plenty of people on here really like their 9's, .40's, and .45's and you should as they are all fine rounds.(I own a Colt 1911 in .45 ACP, and recently bought a 9mm CZ 75, and am very fond of both guns) I just think it's a shame that the 10mm plays the role of a niche round when I think it should be the standard modern day, big semi-auto round. A lot of people don't even know there is a 10mm round. When you say 9mm, or .40 cal, or .45 people know what you are talking about, but when you say 10mm to a lot of people who aren't very gun savvy don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I was at a friends house a few weeks ago and I had my 10 with me, and we decide to shoot some. He went and got his old 1911, and Colt King Cobra and we set up some old clay bricks he had laying around. The .45 ACP rounds he had were nothing special just your typical PMC 230gr FMJ rounds. It would bust the brisks up pretty good but it was nothing to write home about. His .357 Mag obviously busted the brisks up quite a bit better, and there was a lot more small pieces of brick with it. With my 10 I had some Swampfox hard cast heavy loads,(this is very hard hitting 10mm ammo) and these were turning half of bricks it hit into straight up dust, and the rest of the brick broken up into many small pieces. When we'd hit a brick with the 10mm we'd have to turn our heads as the wind was blowing towards us and was carrying the dust cloud with it. It was quite impressive when compared to my friends .357, and he was amazed at how hard hitting a round as small as the 10mm can hit, and how easy it was to manage. He swears that his next gun purchase will be a G20.

I feel that if Glock could build such a good poly gun to handle factory 10mm loads back 20/21 years ago then the other manufacture's should be able to today. If I'm not mistaken Glock is the only one who makes a 10mm polymer gun? I feel that a FNP 45 or M&P 45 would make a great 10mm gun if correctly massaged to work with, and handle 10mm ammo. How about a HK semi-auto 10mm? Haven't they made MP5's in 10mm? I bet a Sig would make a nice 10mm, and so on and so forth.

Of course I'm sure the biggest reason the 10mm hasn't taken off is because the Military, and Law Enforcement don't show much interest in the round. You would think that when you hear things like the Military wanting to step up to something bigger than a 9mm that they would consider a 10mm. I have average/medium size hands, and my G20SF fits my hands like a glove, and even with a heavy nuclear 10mm loads it's a more manageable gun to fire than my 1911 with +P ammo.

Sorry for the long read BTW. I guess I had a lot to say, and got a little carried away. Anyway what do y'all think? Discuss.

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CZ57
June 2, 2011, 07:41 PM
I believe that part of the reason you don't see more 10mm introductions is internet forums. Gun manufacturers check out forums like anybody else. It is not unusual to see someone espousing the virtues of their nuclear 10mm loads. The gun manufacturers know that handloads will go into guns they've made even when warning that handloads will void the warranty. Any of the pistols you mentioned would be great candidates for the 10mm chambering. The SA XD/XDm line would be ideal for 10mm, as would the M&P, FNP, and H&K etc. I don't know about SIG unless it were an all steel pistol. In short, I just think the manufacturers are afraid to chamber 10mm because of the uncertainty of non SAAMI spec loads.;)

Rodentman
June 2, 2011, 07:49 PM
The 10mm is one of my favorite rounds. I've never fired factory loads, just my reloads. I have a Glock 20, 29, DW Razorback and an S&W 610. I don't know why it isn't more popular with shooters and mfrs. I think it's a great round.

KAS1981
June 2, 2011, 07:55 PM
Firearms, like anything, is all about what sells.

If nobody liked 9mm or .45 ACP, and loved 10mm, then we'd see a lot more 10mm weapons.

rbernie
June 2, 2011, 07:57 PM
Keep in mind that the number of platforms that can safely and comfortably and reliably chamber the 10mm are relatively few in number. Most manufacturers would have to invest some amount of money into designing (or redesigning) a pistol to shoot the 10mm cartridge with decent durability.

Given the lack of supply, the obvious conclusion is that there is just not enough demand to justify the investment on the part of the gun manufacturers.

Sheepdog1968
June 2, 2011, 09:14 PM
Jeff Cooper was a big fan of the 10 mm and wrote a fair bit about it when they were first comming out. The proper full house load it was designed for a good round. The water downed loads were crap for self defense. It just didn't take hold. I seem to recall (fuzzy memory so please correct me if I'm wrong) it taking a while for the 10 mm firearms to be manufactured and have the kinks worked out of them. Maybe this sort of delayed roll out of the pistol by Bren killed the enthuasism.

JROC
June 2, 2011, 09:30 PM
Good replys guys.

I was reading on a forum discussing S&W making a 10mm M&P, and people were saying that in order for that to happen the Military or a big Law Enforcement group would have to seriously want to go with a 10mm.

I feel if S&W, FN, Springfield, HK, CZ, Sig, and other big name semi-auto manufactures would develop 10mm version guns of their volume seller to compete with Glock then the round would start to take off.

Again it's a great round. I think of the 10mm as the semi-auto version of the .44 Mag.(I know .44 Mag is quite a bit more powerful than 10mm) It's the semi-auto's big boy defense round unless you are wanting to talk Desert Eagle. You don't need a .44 Mag to put someone down, but a lot of people(Like Clint Eastwood) like the thought that they have a very capable, and powerful round in their weapon in case the need for them to have to use it arrives. I think the 10mm is the perfect round to fill that niche in a semi-auto. To be honest I don't know anyone who carries a .44 Mag on them when they go out.(most people I know that carry wheel guns use a .357, but a 10 with factory loads, and a .357 Mag hit with similar force) Still a .44 Mag is a fairly popular gun, and I know people who keep them in their house. IDK maybe Hollywood helped popularized it?

Apocalypse-Now
June 2, 2011, 09:56 PM
Keep in mind that the number of platforms that can safely and comfortably and reliably chamber the 10mm are relatively few in number. Most manufacturers would have to invest some amount of money into designing (or redesigning) a pistol to shoot the 10mm cartridge with decent durability.

this.

glock is one of the only 10mm's that can take a beating from full power loads, and probably still outlast it's owner.


a properly design (durable) M&P 10mm would significantly increase the round's popularity. alas, s&w is busy with nonsense like "the governor".

JROC
June 2, 2011, 10:03 PM
Sheepdog1968:

Jeff Cooper actually developed(or helped develop) the 10mm round. The Bren Ten failed largely because the imported magazines had huge delays and would take a long time to get to the states, and from my understanding it was the main reason the gun fails, but there was other things also.

Swampfox, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and maybe a few others make 10mm ammo to hit as hard as, or harder than the original factory 10mm ammo.

From my experience 10mm ammo more than any other size round is all about quality. I can shoot cheap ammo out of my .45 or 9mm, and be pretty accurate with them, and not notice much a difference between cheap ammo, and expensive ammo in terms of accuracy. With my 10 if I shoot some cheap reloads, or just cheap ammo in general it is ridiculous how bad I'm off. I can hardly hit the broad side of a barn with it at 25 yards. Honestly it is just amazing, and embarrassing how off I am with lowend 10mm ammo. With expensive, quality 10mm ammo(Hornady, DT, Swampfox) that takes a complete 180 for me. I become every bit as accurate with my Glock as I am with my 1911 or CZ 75. I'm anything but a great marksman, but my G20 with some Hornady 200gr JHP makes me feel like a champ. With that combo I shoot better than any other semi-auto I have ever fired, and my 1911 is a pretty accurate pistol. IDK if it's the Glock or just something with the round, but I've shot quite a few different brands of 10mm ammo, and that's how it's worked for me. To be honest I've let other people shoot my 10 that shoot it better than me. Has any other of you 10mm guys noticed this or is it just me?

Much of the 10mm ammo out there today is watered down compared to the original Norma, but it should still hit about like a hot .40 S&W round. The Hornady 10mm ammo for example.

Apocalypse-Now
June 2, 2011, 10:11 PM
Jeff Cooper actually developed(or helped develop) the 10mm round. The Bren Ten failed largely because the imported magazines had huge delays and would take a long time to get to the states, and from my understanding it was the main reason the gun fails, but there was other things also.

the bren ten was also horribly unreliable, and prone to small parts breaking. why some are eagerly anticipating it's return is a mystery.

yes, they did ship some without any mags, but that was the least of it's problems.

CZ57
June 2, 2011, 11:13 PM
I feel if S&W, FN, Springfield, HK, CZ, Sig, and other big name semi-auto manufactures would develop 10mm version guns of their volume seller to compete with Glock then the round would start to take off.

The CZ 97B in particular seems to be a natural platform for 10mm. Folks at CZ Forum have made this quite clear. DWesson has 10mm variants, you'd think that CZ would think about the 10mm in the 97.;)

GLOOB
June 2, 2011, 11:37 PM
It's because 10mm is an autopistol round. Semiautos' main selling points are capacity and portability - i.e. self defense. And 10mm doesn't bring anything to that table other than more recoil and higher cost ammo.

For hunting, there are better cartridges out there, and most people would rather launch them from a revolver.

This puts 10mm in the same boat as the Wildey 45 Automag, Desert Eagle, and so forth. A gun that's good for bragging rights, but which most people will download for 99% of their shooting, anyways. I'm guessing 99% of the 45 and 40 ammo that is put downrange is already light target stuff. The 10mm is just more overkill.

inutero1212
June 2, 2011, 11:47 PM
Maybe because the 10mm overpenetrates by and far the FBI standard and doesn't offer a significant improvment over existing rounds at the cost part replacement, oh wait, that made too much sense....

Strahley
June 2, 2011, 11:49 PM
Exactly what GLOOB said. 10mm does nothing extra for self defense that a good 9mm or .45 wouldn't be able to handle

Minnesota Wild
June 3, 2011, 12:02 AM
I agree with both of the big reasons noted above that the 10 was never really very popular had to do with the need to produce a larger platform weapon and because no major buyer picked up the gun, but I think you need to go a little deeper than that as to why it never got that popular.

The FBI adopted the 10mm as a replacement to the 38 Special, but soon started to reduce the power of the loads to reduce recoil. I think this is something that many of us who are 1) heavy shooters; that 2) are almost all male forget. The military and law enforcement have shooters of all shapes and sizes, including petit women, that often are scared of guns and don't shoot very often. These people are frequently intimidated by the blast of a 9mm, no less a 10mm.

Now this has to do with why government purchasers don't want 10mm guns, but the same thing applies to civilian purchasers. The 10mm just doesn't have a natural place among the current range of cartridges. For self defense, it's too big for concealed carry and has more recoil than most casual shooters are comfortable with. For those that want a powerful cartridge, the 10mm simply can't hold a candle to any number of revolver cartridges that are better for any given application. This leaves the 10mm where it sits...as a niche cartridge.

I don't mean this to say that the 10mm is a bad round. To the contrary, I love the round. I just note that there are so many cartidges on the market today that for a cartridge to become popular, it needs to do something significantly better than the existing loadings without disadvantages that overshadow the advantages. You can't say that about the 10mm.

Cards81fan
June 3, 2011, 12:03 AM
this.

glock is one of the only 10mm's that can take a beating from full power loads, and probably still outlast it's owner.


a properly design (durable) M&P 10mm would significantly increase the round's popularity. alas, s&w is busy with nonsense like "the governor".
It's only nonsense until you consider how much more profitable it will be over a 10mm pistol.

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 12:10 AM
It's only nonsense until you consider how much more profitable it will be over a 10mm pistol.


touche :)

mgmorden
June 3, 2011, 12:24 AM
It all comes down the the $$$. The buying public doesn't want 10mm autos - or at least, not very many of them do. They make what sells, and what's selling right now are .380 pocket guns, polymer wonder 9's, and 1911's.

THplanes
June 3, 2011, 12:37 AM
The FBI adopted the 10mm as a replacement to the 38 Special, but soon started to reduce the power of the loads to reduce recoil. .

This just plain wrong. The FBI adopted the 10mm to replace the 9mm. If you will remember it's was the 9mm silver tip they scapegoated for the agencies problems at the Miami shoot-out.

They never adopted or even tested the full power loads. The requirements for a new round limited to recoil to no more than the 185 gr .45 acp round. An agent supplied his personal delta elite for the test. He was a handloader and supplied the reduced power loads that were tested.

The problems were with the size and weight of the gun. The recoil was not a factor. The gun they adopted to replace it was smaller and weighed less. It also shot a round that was a ballistic twin of the of the FBI lite load. It would have more recoil than the FBI lite load in the big heavy Smith.

armoredman
June 3, 2011, 12:43 AM
We have tried to get CZ-UB to make the CZ 97 in a 10mm, no interest yet. Could also be the 10mm is a USA only cartridge. Now, EAA does import the Force pistol from Tanfoglio, called the Witness, in 10mm. I have heard some of the newer slides are breaking, but that is only a few minor stories. I would love to try a Witness Compact 10mm, just because.

kozak6
June 3, 2011, 01:47 AM
10mm is a hobbyist cartridge.

It's too expensive and hard to find. It's really only viable if you are a reloader.

Even though it's mostly a revolver cartridge, the .357 magnum is a better choice for most shooters and I think they realize this.

Apocalypse-Now
June 3, 2011, 02:23 AM
there's range ammo for about $17/box, only problem is it's loaded exactly to 40cal velocities (990fps 180gr). it's that serbian partivi stuff.


i buy HPR and swampfox. full power stuff, and it aint cheap. hoever, there are more options now for 10mm. i usually get blazer aluminum 10mm for around $22/box for the range. it's hotter than partivi. i blast out the expensive full power stuff too. it's fun, but it ain't cheap. :)


BVAC has promissed to clean up their act and stop selling tumbling bullets, and if that happens, their stuff is only $17/box50rounds for decently hot target loads.


definitely much more options for 10mm ammo now. there's been quite the spike in glock10mm sales too. i recently needed to find two g29's--couldn't locate a single one in a local shop, or online for 2 months!

full power 10mm also penetrates more than 9/40/45, and deliver over 750+ ft lbs of energy. will that energy level make a difference in incapacitation as apposed to the 9/40/45 which hover around sub 400ft lbs of energy that makes no difference in stopping power? i bet it would ;)

so, you guys that have never shot, much less owned a 10mm, and are still claiming that's it's a fad, or "hobby round", really need to know the facts before making uninformed claims--no offense ;)

a glock 29 is a great backpacking partner in the lower 48, and a great ccw piece. ;)

(and yes, if you couldn't tell, i do own a 10mm)

1911Tuner
June 3, 2011, 07:15 AM
Simple answer...in its full-power guise, the Big Ten is hard on slides. In the 1911, with its tiny radial lugs, it beats them out pretty quickly, even if they're equalized horizontally.
The sharp corners at the breechface, adjacent to the side of the slide is also a problem area, prone to recoil stress cracks.

A few years back, I heard of a conversation between Ed Brown and a customer who was having a few problems. When Ed asked him about ammunition, the owner told him that he was shooting 200-grain SWC and JHP...handloaded to around 970 fps. Not sure what powder was used, or if it was even mentioned.

Ed's response?

"Whoa, man! You're gonna break my gun!"

The 10mm's full-house loading consists of a 200-grain bullet almost 300 fps faster.
Do the math.

hardluk1
June 3, 2011, 08:14 AM
JROC don't thnk for a minute that the 10mm is better than a 357 mag. Load a 357 with 180 or 200gr hardcast and it will do what your HC loads did with a better BC. And that means better down range energy. 10mm has a place. It would make a perfect trail gun or carry in a rougher setting but it is just another option.
Problem with 10mm witness has as more to do with the load and matching a recoil spring to it that the gun. Buy factory or load to factory levels and they hold up fine but load or buy hot rounds and you will have problems with out the right springs . All pistol can have that same problem just to a lesser degree. Load a well tuned pistol to standard 9mm loads and then step to nato/+p+ range and it might or might not break over time but it can give reliablity problems and some companies will state that.. CZ would have to redesign there line for the longer harder recoiling round and maybe there just not enough demand for that.

Geckgo
June 3, 2011, 08:36 AM
Put the 10mm in a cop movie and have Tommy Lee Jones and John Travolta in a scene, talking about what a great cartidge it is, the next day shelves around the country will be empty on 10mm ammo.

tinygnat219
June 3, 2011, 09:37 AM
I think the history of the 10MM cartridge has been beaten to death here so I won't go into it. However, I will make a case for why more manufacturers haven't gotten into it. Fairly simply, it's economics.

The cartridge has a pretty fair sized OAL and doesn't fit in the typical 9MM frame size that most manufacturers are using for 90% of their production. There's a reason why .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and 9MM are your leading auto calibers: They share the same frame size of the handgun. Take a look at the G20 frame sometime and compare it to the G17. It's bigger in the grip area, has wider rails, and the slide is as beefy as anything Glock has ever made. It would require another section of tooling / molding to make something for the 10MM round. Most companies probably don't see a return on investment from sales generated by the 10MM cartridge.

There are really only two companies out there making guns for the 10MM that aren't 1911s: Glock, and EAA. The Glock 20 is probably Glock's most versatile handgun as well as with a simple barrel swap you can chamber the gun in .40S&W, .357 SIG, and 9X25 Dillon without changing magazines. I have a LoneWolf Barrel in .40 S&W and it's shot 100% without any issues. While the EAA Witness has had some problems that are well documented, but it still seems to sell.

I'd LOVE or hell, even settle to see the 10MM offered at the very least as a custom shop option for the XD/M Series, the M&P series, and anything else that's not a 1911.

Smaug
June 3, 2011, 01:58 PM
I agree that there is a place for it. It is more powerful than both 45 ACP and 9mm, and for capacity, fits between them.

The current trend is for tiny guns that are hard to shoot. Maybe in the future, there will be another trend for larger guns that are hard to shoot. (we already went through this with revolvers)

I think they would do really well if they offered 10mm guns with two springs, and ammo loaded to two power levels. The lower end would be the same power level as 40 S&W, and the higher end would be full-house 10mm. Later on, maybe even add a 10mmT (target) with an even lighter spring and ammo just for the purpose.

This is really an untapped market, limited only by the creativity and marketing prowess of the manufacturer. Some day, someone will figure it out.

Add to that the advantages of an auto pistol: capacity, slimness, lower recoil, faster follow-up, better trigger action after the first shot, etc. There is room for it.

My understanding of the 10mm Glocks was that their chambers don't full support the case, which can lead to kaBOOMs if brass is re-used. That design flaw would need to be fixed right quick.

1911Tuner: The problems you mentioned with 10mm in a 1911 package, does those apply to the Delta Elite as well? I noticed that Colt is still making them, and I'd be surprised if they kept right on making them despite durability problems.

BigG
June 3, 2011, 02:18 PM
I'm thinking the Delta Elite Colt's are not shot all that much. I have a couple 10mm Colt Autos that only have a box or two of ammo through them. I would guess the majority of the ones I've seen are considered collector's items. Even the Colt 45 Autos do not seem to be shot that much.

Zoogster
June 3, 2011, 03:40 PM
The simple answer is the cartridge's overall length.

As others have noted it cannot simply be stuffed into a wonder 9 frame. The .40S&W could be stuffed into the wonder 9 frames that dominated the market, so it required no new firearm design, no research and development, and minimal tooling difference.
While .45ACP guns don't need to be built to withstand much because they operate at such low pressures, and were already produced.



The last thing manufacturers wanted to do was have to make all new frames after investing in mass production of wonder 9s when everyone was transitioning to automatics.
So they certainly played a role in discouraging the 10mm when it was poised to take over the market as well.
Glock prepared for the transition, designing a reliable frame based on the cartridge, but all most manufacturers did was adapt .45ACP guns intended for much lower pressure.
The market then based how suitable the 10mm was on how it performed in a .45ACP frame with a high bore axis, often under sprung increasing perceived recoil, and


Then there is name. Face it, most of the market is not very educated on firearms. Things as simple as name play a huge role in popularity.
"10mm" sounds like just 1 mm more than "9mm". It does not sound impressive, is metric, and simply fails to market itself in the American market.
If it was called the .40S&W Magnum, which is what it is, then it would be much more popular. Unfortunately it came before the .40S&W, as the .40S&W was an attempt to use a weaker version in 9mm frames, so the 10mm was named first.






The 10mm is very similar to the .357 Magnum in an automatic. Which was an American staple for generations for a reason. Yet is softer shooting because the action disperses felt recoil.
The 10mm shoots very flat making shots at range easy, is a hard hitter up close or far away, and has good capacity.
For the increased power I find it ironic that it is actually even more comfortable to shoot than the .40S&W. The .40S&W being all snap, with the 10mm being a more balanced snap and push. A benefit of the added case capacity with which to generate pressure over the .40S&W.
Many of the 10mm autos shortcomings are from a past of simply changing the caliber of firearms never meant for the round, then being less than impressed and having to fix unanticipated problems. Shortcomings you don't see in guns made specifically for the round, like the Glock 20 and 29.
(And even guns like the Glock 30, a Glock 29 intended for the 10mmauto that was converted to .45ACP, making it one of the better .45s because it is much tougher than most guns intended to fire .45ACP.)

SlicLee
June 3, 2011, 03:41 PM
The trend is to sell guns and ammo to everyone. The weak and the strong.
I own and shoot a 10mm. Why? They dont make a 11.
S&W made 10 mm pistols, you could shoot one of them all day long and it wouldnt break,the 1006 a 5" 1076 4" I liked that one, had both+ a revolver had 2 cylinders,10 and 40 before it became popular, all that way before the new 10mm revolver, the 610. You can buy them now probably in like new condition. The FBI tried using the 10 to be big shots but the trend then, Hoover died, was to disarm the FBI, the liberals had snuck into law enforcement and were well there in the early 60's, we dont want anyone shooting, equal rights, females must be allowed, they must shoot the same guns, so instead of powder puffs came the 40.
I reloaded and shot the Smith 10's in both combat and pistol competition until the caliber was banned, was so much more accurate out of the box than a 1911 45 ACP. Draw some 3 or 4 inch circles on the back of target paper, send it to 25 yds, with no work done, the Smiths 10 mm bullets always went into the circles, i USED 35,150, 155 180 GRAIN BULLETS, WHICH EVER WAS CHEAPER.
If you get a chance to shoot a smith you will never use a glock, no,NO, I dont work for smith. I sold all my smith 10 mm pistols some years ago.
However, I didnt sell my Colt Delta Elites in shiny hard polished SS. When you open the blue box,ahhh, these shoot smaller than the Smiths, only a little bit.

Zoogster
June 3, 2011, 04:00 PM
Yes sliclee we have covered the politics for transition to .40S&W before, and it is unfortunate.
The law enforcement market followed the FBI. The FBI tried a high bore axis gun in 10mm, with .45ACP recoil springs causing the slide to snap the gun backwards and forwards like a pendulum.
This combined to give much greater perceived recoil and muzzle flip, making it a handful for anyone, and very difficult for the weaker wrists of women to control.
At a time when sexual discrimination lawsuits were being filed everywhere and winning for even the most minor of allegations, and women were just entering the mainstream workforce in large numbers.
So when female agents threatened to file suit because they had trouble qualifying with the gun that men could that spelled the end of the full power 10mm Auto.
They then downloaded it to levels of a completely different cartridge, rather than fixing the spring and ergonomics of the gun that was the problem to begin with, and would have solved the problem while retaining the power of the round.
But that combined with manufacturers' desires to keep using the 9mm frames they had invested in rather than accommodating the larger OAL of the 10mm in a new frame resulted in the .40S&W taking over, and the much better 10mm auto failing to take its place even after all the research leading up to its initial adoption showed it would be much better.

Smaug
June 3, 2011, 05:14 PM
I own and shoot a 10mm. Why? They dont make a 11.

Yes, they do. It is called the 45 ACP. (11.4 mm) or the 44 Special or the 44 Magnum. (10.9 mm)

THplanes
June 4, 2011, 12:23 AM
Yes sliclee we have covered the politics for transition to .40S&W before, and it is unfortunate.
The law enforcement market followed the FBI. The FBI tried a high bore axis gun in 10mm, with .45ACP recoil springs causing the slide to snap the gun backwards and forwards like a pendulum.
This combined to give much greater perceived recoil and muzzle flip, making it a handful for anyone, and very difficult for the weaker wrists of women to control.
At a time when sexual discrimination lawsuits were being filed everywhere and winning for even the most minor of allegations, and women were just entering the mainstream workforce in large numbers.
So when female agents threatened to file suit because they had trouble qualifying with the gun that men could that spelled the end of the full power 10mm Auto.
They then downloaded it to levels of a completely different cartridge, rather than fixing the spring and ergonomics of the gun that was the problem to begin with, and would have solved the problem while retaining the power of the round.
But that combined with manufacturers' desires to keep using the 9mm frames they had invested in rather than accommodating the larger OAL of the 10mm in a new frame resulted in the .40S&W taking over, and the much better 10mm auto failing to take its place even after all the research leading up to its initial adoption showed it would be much better.

Stop repeating this crap. It's absolute BS. I'll repeat myself, the FBI never formally tested or adopted full power 10mm. They tested and adopted the FBI lite load right from the start. The replacement gun was smaller and weighed less than the Smith, while using a round that was a ballistic twin of the 10mm lite. The problem was the size and weight of the Smith.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

hardluk1
June 4, 2011, 10:10 AM
It's just another cartrage. Just one of many.

Apocalypse-Now
June 4, 2011, 10:51 AM
The 10mm is very similar to the .357 Magnum in an automatic.

actually they're not even close.

Smitty258
June 4, 2011, 10:57 AM
I'd love to see a semi-auto carbine made in 10mm that takes the Glock mags. I'm sure it would make an excellent short range deer cartridge that could share ammo and mags with the Glock 20!

Apocalypse-Now
June 4, 2011, 11:02 AM
I'd love to see a semi-auto carbine made in 10mm that takes the Glock mags.


well it doesn't take glock mags, but the H&K mp5 comes in 10mm (and full auto). the FBI still uses them, as far as i know.

ohwell
June 4, 2011, 11:12 AM
There are a lot of cartridges that have barely hung on or fallen to the wayside . The biggest reason for their demise is just plain economics. If they dont sell strongly to the mass's the manufacturer's wont keep making them. They arent in business to lose money.

Zoogster
June 4, 2011, 09:21 PM
ohwell said: If they dont sell strongly to the mass's the manufacturer's wont keep making them. They arent in business to lose money.

It is a bit more complex though. The manufacturers that offer less common rounds sell them for more.
This results in fewer people buying them because they are more expensive. 10mm Auto has a lot of reloaders, which do not contribute to perceived popularity because they are not feeding their guns with commercial rounds, keeping the overall perception of the 10mm market lower than it is.
The flip side is manufacturers need to manufacture rounds in huge quantities to sell at low prices, and they don't take that leap of faith in investment and potential loss if there is not a large solid number of expected buyers.
But once much of the market has already invested in reloading they are not a reliable market because they can still typically produce rounds for slightly less (just as they could in other calibers.)
It is a catch 22. Reloaders kill the profit potential in the market.

Cartridges used by police and the military having a significant edge over other calibers, and is not based merely on the merits of the caliber. Rather it is a safe cartridge to mass produce with little risk of being unable to move the product in quantities that enable one to stay in business with minimal profit per round.
A few additional well established calibers of similar low risk to manufacturers, like say the .22LR are also not a leap of faith to mass produce with a narrow profit margin.



It is like the proverbial 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?'.
If LEO or the military adopt a cartridge on a large scale suddenly it is safe for manufacturers to jump in for little minimal profit margin per round, and then the round is inexpensive and becomes even more popular with civilians.
If not then it can be a dangerous playground for manufacturers to work in with mediocre profit margin, and so they charge more, further reducing the popularity of a round which wouldn't cost much different to mass produce than cheaper more popular rounds.

The 10mm Auto is a great round. It shoots flat, is powerful, and in many properly setup guns is really no more difficult to shoot than a .45ACP or .40S&W, and much easier than similarly powerful hot loads of .357 Magnum from a revolver.
However many of the shooters that have learned how great it is are also the type of shooters that reload ammo, and so make a poor market to make a profit on.
The result is significantly less ammo sales in that caliber than the size of the market, and a resulting lack of perceived interest and manufacture of new guns in that caliber.

Bottom line? Reloaders kill perceived popularity of a cartridge and don't really count in the ammo market, drive up commercial ammo prices by being nearly non-existent customers, and result in the demise of their own favorite calibers, because they don't buy more expensive commercial ammo that results in greater and less expensive mass production of ammo and guns in that cartridge.
It is quite an irony. The calibers most favored by the knowledgeable gun owners that could make or reload any round they wanted and are invested enough to reload or make their own ammo have a greatly reduced commercial profit potential, and so are not a reliable customer base.

JROC
June 4, 2011, 11:25 PM
I've been agreeing with most everything what Zoogster has been saying. I believe for the 10mm to really take off either a larger LE division, or the Military will need to adopt the 10mm cartridge. If that happened then the cost of 10mm ammo would likely go down some, but with that said if you can afford .45 ACP then you should be able to afford 10mm as the cost tends to not be that much of a difference between the two.

It may be just another round, but it a very good one. Most people enjoy the type of recoil it produces compared to other rounds, it shoots flat, far, fast, hits hard, has a wide range for its load and the weight of the bullet it fires, and it can house as many rounds as a .40 cal. In fact the only thing a .40 cal has on 10mm performance wise is .40S&W will fit a 9mm frame, but I would rather have a 9 than a gun developed to be a .40 off a gun that's already a 9mm. That's one cool thing, and one of the reasons a G20 is such a good 10mm is it was designed from the get go on a clean sheet of paper to be a 10mm. It wasn't a .45 converted to a 10. BTW if your hands are big enough to handle a .45 then they are big enough to handle 10mm.

Also some people like to bash the watered down 10mm loads that fire with about the same energy as .40S&W, but I love that stuff. It turns my Glock into an extremely smooth, easy to handle operator, and .40 cal ballistics is plenty powerful enough to put a human being down. IMHO my G20 with the FBI loads is as easy to handle as my 9mm. I do have a 22lb recoil spring in my Glock for the factory type loads though. As for the type of recoil the G20 produces it doesn't really snap, and jerk your wrists back and up like most other semi-auto's I've fired tend to do, as much as it manages to make your whole arms work as shock absorbers. It kind of throws your arms back and up and pivots your elbows more than flipping your wrists. This is an extremely desirable type of recoil, and make even hot loads very manageable. I much prefer the recoil of my G20 with hot loads to a 1911 with +P ammo.

whenmonkeysfly
June 5, 2011, 07:09 AM
There are a lot of cartridges that have barely hung on or fallen to the wayside . The biggest reason for their demise is just plain economics. If they dont sell strongly to the mass's the manufacturer's wont keep making them. They arent in business to lose money.

+1

The 10mm is my favorite cartridge. That being said, If you don't handload and you're not readily able to spend ~41 dollars/50 rounds (Double Tap FMJ Match), a 10mm is just not practical to regularly shoot. Too bad for us 10mm fans, because if the cartridge were more popular, ammunition would be more readily available at more affordable prices.

If the 9mm or .40 were not so popular with LE and/or the military, it too would not be affordable to shoot. If more people shot the 10mm, the cheaper the ammo would become, but since people don't shoot the 10mm, it remains too expensive for "regular" shooters (kind of a catch 22).

(I handload and rarely buy factory 10mm, so I also contribute to keeping 10mm prices high.) Fewer and fewer gun manufacturers are making 10mm weapons because there isn't enough demand for them. :( So I suggest all the 10mm fans push the 10mm merits on all their friends and buy more 10mm ammo and more 10mm guns! :D

The Lone Haranguer
June 5, 2011, 07:27 AM
Given the lack of supply, the obvious conclusion is that there is just not enough demand to justify the investment on the part of the gun manufacturers.

Agreed.

KurtC
June 5, 2011, 08:20 AM
During the early '90s, Smith & Wesson made approx. 50,000 stainless steel 10mm auto pistols, in 6 variations. These were specifically designed for full power loads. If there was any interest (potential profit) in them, they would never have stopped making them. Now they are collector's items. The biggest problem is that the 3rd Generation pistols were hign in craftsmanship, using lots of forging and machining. They cost nearly 3 times as much as a glock to produce.

Their 10mm revolver is back in production, but it has the dreaded lock on it so interest is not what it should be.

larryh1108
June 5, 2011, 09:04 AM
For all the reloaders of the 10mm.... where does the brass come from since so few shoot it and how many times can it be reloaded? It has to be purchased "new" at some point to generate the used casings....

wheelguy
June 5, 2011, 09:34 AM
Naw, new cases are sold in all calibers - because there is a thriving reloader market. Here is an example...
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1390121012

larryh1108
June 5, 2011, 01:07 PM
I don't reload yet and I knew they sold new brass but then I began to ask myself if you pay for the new cases and bullets is it still that cheap to reload? I will get into reloading when I retire in a few years and wish to learn all I can over the next few years.

If I can ask, if you shoot 500-1000 rounds a month, mainly 9-40-45-357, what type of press would you get to start up with and is there any reloading site for good, used systems? Without going from 0-100 right off the bat, how would you start up a reloading setup?

Thorgrim
June 5, 2011, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by rbernie
Given the lack of supply, the obvious conclusion is that there is just not enough demand to justify the investment on the part of the gun manufacturers.
Agreed.

Yet, I can't buy something if it isn't for sale, so there's no real evidence that the market isn't out there. It's kind of a reverse Hobson's Choice - you can have our new semi-auto in any caliber as long as it isn't 10mm. :D

As for S&W - I find it both ironic and humorous that Taurus built their business by copying Smiths, and now Smith is copying Taurus with their version of The Judge. The real pity is that S&W already knows how to build a good 10mm, all they have to do is make some more with the tooling and expertise they have and get them on the shelves. I suggest they start by throwing confetti and blowing horns, announcing the "Return of a Smith & Wesson Classic" in the NRA and gun magazines with a limited edition of slightly fancied-up safe queens, and take it from there using the nearly-instant sellout to justify to management putting out some production models for dealers' shelves.

Zoogster
June 5, 2011, 05:04 PM
larryh1108 said: I don't reload yet and I knew they sold new brass but then I began to ask myself if you pay for the new cases and bullets is it still that cheap to reload? I will get into reloading when I retire in a few years and wish to learn all I can over the next few years.

It depends on the caliber and what you consider your time worth.
It is almost always cheaper in materials to reload per say, but you have to consider what your time is worth and if reloading is work just so you have shooting ammo, or is itself recreation to you.
If it is just work to you to reload then it is often cheaper to trade an hours paycheck in the form of buying rounds.
The money made in an hour of overtime would probably be a lot more than many would save by reloading components for an hour.
So in that way it is not cheaper if you factor in labor costs for manual work.


As for the cost itself:
10mm auto can be reloaded for just slightly more than .40S&W. The increased powder is an insignificant cost difference, and you can use many of the same bullet weights. Although 10mm can also use heavier bullets, and common .40S&W bullets top out at about 180 grains, 180 grain and below .40S&W bullets can work fine for potent range ammo.
Since .40S&W is so common there is plenty of mass production and price competition in .40 bullets.
So you get the brass and it cost about as much as .40S&W to reload.
Some calibers are a clear waste of your time to reload like those mass produced and sold at highly competitive prices by everyone, you work for far below minimum wage per hour in terms of savings. While other calibers are a larger savings. But you will always get the exact performance you want tailored to your specifications.



The price of components fluctuates. It went up a lot during the Obama panic of 2009, but has been going back down as the hoarders and SHTF predictors can only buy so much and are forced back into reality.
The market will charge what it can bear, and it could bear a price hike a couple years ago, manufacturers hate to reduce prices once they get them substantially higher if people will still pay them, but they can only fight the market so long and the price has been steadily going down towards reality.
However transport costs of heavy lead are subject to fuel costs, and hazmat costs of primers and powders can be a substantial percentage of cost, and are proportionally larger the smaller the purchase.
If you buy online there is more to cost than the sticker price, and it includes shipping and hazmat.

Be careful of those quoting actual savings or cost per round. Many that cite their cost per round won't be including original brass cost, shipping costs, and hazmat costs in their exaggerated savings formula. They certainly won't be including labor cost per hour. And of course the equipment you invest in takes thousands of rounds in savings even while working for 0 cents an hour to break even.


It also takes someone that can pay attention and has a level head to keep from blowing their gun up. Someone not prone to always pushing the limits, because there is always a little room to push further until something goes wrong. You can also remove all margin for error and then have no safety net when something like some water gets in the barrel, or a bullet gets set back slightly during loading or while cycling.
Some people don't have the personality or attention span to be assembling individual explosives that cause harm if you get them wrong. You can get them right 10,000 times, but that one time you get them wrong will offset all the savings when the gun is destroyed, and especially if there is medical expenses or a lower quality of life due to injury.

larryh1108
June 5, 2011, 06:14 PM
Thanks for a solid answer. There were no surprises and I totally agree that 99% accuracy or even 99.9% accuracy is not acceptable. Personally, I have an attention to detail so I won't have an issue there. Also, I don't charge myself "labor" if I'm working on something I enjoy. If I find it tedious then I'll move back to buying it from the store like I do now.

What is a good estimate for a startup for the major handgun calibers mentioned above so one can make safe reloads without it taking forever. I do know that you can always
add on components as you go but to start from scratch is it $500 to get up and running? $300? $800? That's for the equiptment, not the components. I may even sell one of my guns (not desirable) to get set up but if the cost is reasonable then I can avoid that. It seems quite a few people reload so I'm sure there are many benefits. I also spend a lot of money on ammo so if I don't shoot for a month and I can buy a decent setup then all is good. Any suggestions?

HOWARD J
June 5, 2011, 06:32 PM
I picked up a Colt 10MM when they first came out.
200 factory rounds & the slide stop broke--scared the hell out of me.
I took it back to the shop & traded it for a Ruger 45-big-heavy ugly---super accurate.

highlander 5
June 5, 2011, 06:56 PM
i had a Delta Elite for a while and my biggest concern was the double recoil spring and what happens when it broke. I replaced it with a single Wolff spring,a 26# if I recall and it was like loading a bear trap. The deltas were prone to the rail breakage were the slide release came thru as well. I had a couple of boxes of the original Norma loads 200gr hp at 1200 fps
or so the Norma folks said. I have a 10 mm revolver now I getting to old to play hide and seek with my brass.

TestPilot
June 5, 2011, 09:09 PM
It's not popular because of the very same reason why the biggest potential buyer who asked for it abandoned it.

Even if 10mm can be stuffed into a 9mm pistol size frame, it still has a recoil problem, according to FBI that is. That's the reason why they loaded the 10mm with underpowered load, then abandoned it.

40S&W is used in a 9mm sized guns, and listen to people complaining about the recoil of 40S&W. Imagine what they'll say if it was a 10mm.

9mm, 40S&W, and 45ACP happens to fall within the category where it is powerful enough for a pistol round that offers controllability at the same time. This is also the reason why most people who use pistol in their profession for combat use do not use 10mm, even if they are a member of a team that requires them to be very physically fit.

If you can controll it, why not? Go at it. But, you would be an exception rather than the norm. And, market goes after norms.

Casefull
June 5, 2011, 10:11 PM
The 10mm is harder hitting than the 357 magnum...holds 15 rounds and is easier to shoot. At least my glock 20 with wolf barrel and 180g handloads is.

IdahoLT1
June 6, 2011, 01:22 AM
actually they're not even close.

Actually they are very close

10mm:
200gr@1275fps(722 fpe) from a 4.6" barrel
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=39

220gr@1200fps(703 fpe) from a 5" barrel
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219

200gr@1240fps(680 fpe) from a 4.6" barrel
http://www.swampfoxgunworks.com/swampfox/product.php?productid=17522&cat=343&page=1

200gr@1325fps(780 fpe) from a 4.6" barrel
http://www.swampfoxgunworks.com/swampfox/product.php?productid=17681&cat=397&page=1

.357 Magnum:

200gr@1200fps(640 fpe) from a 4" barrel
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=337

180gr@1400fps(783 fpe) from a 5" barrel
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

legion3
June 6, 2011, 06:05 AM
This is really an untapped market, limited only by the creativity and marketing prowess of the manufacturer. Some day, someone will figure it out.

Like VLTOR :barf: How is the new Bren Ten working out :D

No profit in the 10mm thus no new 10mm's

Colt re-introduced the Delta Elite (after many years of not producing the gun) because there is some $ to be made in the 1911 world. And Colt already had the tooloing to do 10mm

However not that much as I know plenty of 1911 NUTS , FANS what ever you call them who would not touch a 10mm 1911 if it were given to them.

Thus why the guns can be so expensive as its a limited market.

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