So what's with the brand hate?


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Kliegl
June 4, 2011, 11:51 AM
I've been perusing the five won't buy thread and I noticed some trends that, along with some "demotivational" style posters, led me to some questions that, if y'all cared to answer, I'd be happy to read the replies.

1. Why do people hate HK? Between my old man and myself, we own four, and, other than the 22 mag being slightly picky on the brand of hollowpoints it likes to feed well, they've been great guns. I really like my USP Elite 45, the thing's a tack driver, best mags on a pistol I've seen, and, other than my Model 29-2 and my 1911, the best single action trigger I've got as well. So, I don't get it. Are people THAT angry that they cost more than Glocks?

2. Why do people hate Taurus? I know they copy gun designs, and, of the five between my old man and I, the trigger is hard on the Millennium first gen we have, and I had to crank the rear sight all the way up on the PT-101 to get it to shoot where I aimed, along with some slide rail wear, but they are not guns I wouldn't trust with my life, provided good care and ammo. Some people seem so mistrusting of Taurus that I guess they wouldn't mind having one pointed at them and the trigger pulled, as they surely won't go off, or something like that. I've heard the Taurus customer service horror stories, but the one we sent in, the aforementioned Millennium, came back days early with a *somewhat* better trigger. While I do feel that they are cheaper guns than, say, HK, for instance, my personal line for minimum quality is exceeded by Taurus.

3. Why do folks hate the Taurus Judge? I bought one for my old man for Christmas a couple years ago, and I got the blued, 2.5" chamber, 3" barrel, blued model. I think it was @400 dollars, not the 550 or 600 people claim. Anyway, the 45 Colt at 25 yards is decently accurate, 3-5" groups offhand, and the shotshell is pure fun. I can't imagine a better snake gun. Also, those HD or 00 buck rounds would positively wreck your Christmas at under 10 yards..we're not talking 12 gauge here, but it's a PISTOL. Granted, the pattern gets out of control fast past that, but I think the gun does all it was designed to do, and does it well. Cleaning shotgun residue out of rifling does indeed suck, however, but that's my only gripe. But, from it being a Taurus, and being a .410, surely many here would not mind it being pointed at them, either, judging by the comments.

While I am, by no means, employed by, or am an apologist for, either company or its guns, I do own a few examples from both companies, and the very gun in question in the third point, and I just don't see where the animosity and hate is merited. I can only postulate that those that are the most vocal might be the most uninformed, at least by my standards, as I feel one should have at least shot an example of a model of a gun before disparaging it.

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USAF_Vet
June 4, 2011, 11:58 AM
1. I don't hate H & K :D , just their price tag. If I can't afford 'em, I will never own 'em. I hear their CS is less than stellar as well, but that is hearsay. I'll never know personally due to aforementioned reason.

2. I don't hate Taurus. I'm seriously looking at one of their .357 Magnum revolvers with 6" barrel.

3. Ok, I do hate the Taurus Judge. When I first saw it, (in the Mark Wahlberg movie Max Payne) I was like, awesome, a revolver that shoots shotgun shells! Then I saw one in person, and was like, awesome, can I see the Judge?! Then I held it... eh.
Months later, I got the chance to fire one at the range. Again, lackluster results. I didn't like the fit and feel of it in my hand, and realized that it did nothing half a dozen other guns couldn't do. It was a niche gun with no niche to fill, other than novelty. I don't bash people that own/ like them, they are just not for me.


By the way, I own and like my Hi Point guns, so who am I to Judge?

BIGGBAY90
June 4, 2011, 11:59 AM
Some people swear by glock, some by sig, but i have a friend that has a kimber that used it three times and it has jammed at least seven times but he still swears by it----everyone has they own opinion and thats just what it is---just opinion

Kliegl
June 4, 2011, 12:02 PM
USAF, it's abbreviated HK, not H&K. http://www.hk-usa.com/index.asp and there's a logo on that page with no &. Also, pronounced HECKler and COKE, not cock. Hehehe.

Good answers though so far, thanks.

EddieNFL
June 4, 2011, 12:07 PM
HK? No interest.

Taurus? Better available.

The Judge? I already have shotguns.

For the most part it's personal preference or different standards.

dmazur
June 4, 2011, 12:17 PM
My reasons for disliking the Taurus Judge are based solely on the marketing angle used to sell them, not on the (possibly inferior) quality that characterizes Taurus products in general.

"Five is better than one", so anyone concerned about being able to hit what they aim at is led to believe that a Judge is a magic solution. Self defense without all that annoying and costly practice, in other words.

It's a free country, so what Taurus is doing is no different than any other company trying to sell a product. They play up the advantages and play down the disadvantages.

I find it discouraging that something like the Judge can be a successful product, that's all.

Deus Machina
June 4, 2011, 12:26 PM
1) HK's are great guns. But they have a history of treating civilian gun owners as second class, between poor civilian-side customer service and neutering their hardware in exactly the same way California wants to.

Aside from that, there are guns that are just as good, for much less. Someone here said "HK's are the best $600 gun you'll ever pay $1200 for."

Also, their diehard fanboys give them a bad image by denouncing anything not HK, denying that anything could possibly be as good, and in some cases spouting the stuff they learned from Rainbow Six.

2) I don't get the extent of the Taurus hate. Yes, they can make lemons. Yes, they can wear out faster than a Beretta. Yes, their customer service can take a while. They also cost two-thirds as much as the gun they're a copy of.

A good Taurus is a good thing. I'd rather have my nice M85 than a rusty S&W Model 10. A bad Taurus is exactly the same as a bad Beretta, but it takes two weeks longer.

3) The hate on the judge is purely marketing/hype/fanboy based, standard Taurus hate aside. The fanboys thing it will make a great SD gun with birdshort or small buckshot, for some reason. In reality, the rifling makes it far less accurate to shoot shot out of, and there is no chance that 3" of barrel will push a slug made for a shotgun as well as a 19" barrel will.

From what I've gathered, a Judge is a good gun with .45 LC or a .410 slug handload. But the .410 shotshell thing is a gimmick, for a handgun.

Sam1911
June 4, 2011, 12:34 PM
A tough question to answer because there are a million answers.

In general, "brand hate" falls somewhat equally on all brands. Play this game long enough and you'll hear:

-- That S&W sold out and puts in "Hillary holes" and lots of MIM and their autos have reliability problems, and their quality isn't what it was, and their revolvers are too fragile, and, and, and...

-- That Colt stopped caring about the civilian market and has had no new idea in 30 years and their beautiful old revolvers are fragile and the whole company is one foot in the grave...

-- That Springfield makes 1911s that aren't reliable or true to the original design, sells a re-badged Croation auto no one quite knows what to do with, makes M1As that aren't reliable and are no where near as good as the old M14s, and, and, and...

-- That Ruger sold out back in the AWB-days and their autos are ugly as sin, their revolvers are heavy as lead and you can't get a nice trigger pull out of one, their bolt guns are rough, their Mini-14 is the little assault rifle that couldn't, their .22 rifles make a great gun as long as you throw away every single parts and build a new one on the bare receiver, their .22 autos require a NASA surgeon to reassemble, and, and, and ...

-- That SIGs are fat, ugly, top-heavy, the controls are in the wrong places, the DA/SA trigger system is a has-been, and they cost waaay too much for what you get ...

-- That H&Ks are (see SIG) and cost WAAAAAAAY too much for what you get. Plus, they won't (can't?) sell civilians 95% of the cooler stuff they make and don't appear to care very much for the civilian market anyway... (Oh, and that advertisement with the rounds in the mag backward! [/FACEPALM!])...

-- That Taurus has the most hit-or-miss quality-control in the world and finding a good one is a total crap-shoot. Plus their customer service, which you are almost guaranteed to need, multiple times, is as good as sending off your gun to the moon, by pack mule, and hoping there are little green men up there who might know where to hit it with a little martian hammer to make it go, so that when your great grandkids get it back from CS it will work ... if there are still metallic cartridges made to shoot out of it ... Oh, and they're not such a good deal for the cost anymore, and their marketing of the "Judge" has been such a grossly overblown thing that ... to the astonishment and anger of those in-the-know ... it has WORKED to sell these guns to a public who now can't get enough of them, even though they were a total joke back before Taurus ripped off the idea of the "Thunder 5." Etc...

-- That Remington can't build a rifle worth buying anymore and 'sides, their safeties will crawl out of the gun safe and kill you in your sleep ...

-- That Winchester ... what Winchester? Are they even still around?

-- That Mossberg has lost all credibility as a serious gun manufacturer ever since they started marketing all these dumb-as-dog-poo PGO shotgun variants with fake suppressors, .50 BMG muzzle brakes, "breacher chokes" and other goofiness hanging off them. ...

-- That Kimber used to put out a great product, but now they are so unreliable that if you used one as a paperweight it would probably fall off your desk...

-- That Berettas are just full of odd flaws -- unreliable little pocket autos that break, a 9mm service handgun that is so large it would be more appropriate chambered in .50 AE ... and of course it's not very reliable, cool modern handguns that hurt to shoot, etc ...

And on, and on, and on.

Several things to consider:
1) None of these statements are universally true.
2) None of these statements are universally false.
3) When a gun is good, 1 person out of 100 tells someone.
4) When a gun is bad, or the user thinks it's bad, that one user will tell everyone, repeatedly.

rodregier
June 4, 2011, 12:42 PM
H&K observations:

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/

EddieNFL
June 4, 2011, 12:42 PM
-- That Kimber used to put out a great product, but now they are so unreliable that if you used one as a paperweight it would probably fall off your desk...

I had one so bad papers blew out from under...and it fell off the desk. Fortunately, it landed on the MIM grip safety, which broke, and didn't damage the hardwood floor.

oldvet53
June 4, 2011, 12:56 PM
the only reason I dislike the Taurus is I onced owned a 24/7 .40 cal. compact and it was dao and had a trigger that was too long of pull and not ever having any idea when it would brake and caused me to jerk it in a combat type of shooting practice so I got rid of it and went back to a 1911A1 platform as it was what I had used in the Army and knew it could be counted on.

Hobie
June 4, 2011, 01:07 PM
To answer the question, its the Ford vs Chevy arguments. What it comes down to is different strokes for different folks.

Tape
June 4, 2011, 01:19 PM
-- That Colt stopped caring about the civilian market
Sam, I don't believe that "Colt stopped caring about the civilian market" It was during that time when people were getting killed by a certain gun, not only did they go after the one holding the gun but also the manufacture of the gun that spit out the bullet. Colt did not want the liability; this was also the same time when Colt pistols doubled in price. I believed it was in the ‘90s.

PavePusher
June 4, 2011, 01:20 PM
Sam1911, that was probably the funniest thing I'll see all day. Thanks!

Sam1911
June 4, 2011, 01:28 PM
Sam, I don't believe that "Colt stopped caring about the civilian market"

Tape, I'm not claiming to believe ANY ... or neither ... of these points. I'm just sharing a few of the claims I've heard over the years.

Not sure what you mean about "that time when people were getting killed by a certain gun" (what gun was killing people?) but the legal and political environment was certainly tough on manufacturers around the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s.

Colt's situation is obviously a culmination of many factors.

USAF_Vet
June 4, 2011, 05:16 PM
USAF, it's abbreviated HK, not H&K.

I know, and it irks all the H&K fan boys, so I will continue to include the ampersand.

ColtPythonElite
June 4, 2011, 05:18 PM
I don't hate any guns, but their are plenty that I dislike.

merlinfire
June 4, 2011, 05:22 PM
In short:

People like to hate things, because it makes them better than those that like said things. It's like choosing a favorite football team and then rooting against all the others.

Aiko492
June 4, 2011, 05:33 PM
Don't have any experience with Taurus so cannot comment. But HK along with Glock are my two favorite makers of pistols. Have owned various HK's at various times for over 15 years. I would trust my life to an HK pistol any day.

hardluk1
June 4, 2011, 06:17 PM
I hate . I hate seeing another over priced 1911 on the cover or inside most mags anymore. I would like a 1911 again just not some or any 1000 dollar + pistol. 500 or less yes I will buy one. Thats may hate. Lastest guns and ammo has to high dollar 1911 one waaay 2000 dollars and shoots no better than a witness match.

clutch
June 4, 2011, 06:43 PM
The Judge is just plain stupid. A .410 wonder shotgun shell is no match for a properly designed .45LC round and the latter will work with a shorter firearm.

As to brands, I really don't care, I don't care for Glocks but if you like them, go for it, Glocks shoot good, I just don't like them. HK's, never shot one, Sigs, those are cool.

Kimbers, I hear they make nice ones, I'm waiting for a SA Range officer, I hear that is good, heck a decent 1911 has to be good.

Selecting and using a firearm is an intensely personal decision, what you think is a wonderful gun based on ergonomics, price points, ideas on how a firearm should operate varies greatly across individuals.

Outside of a dangerous piece of crap and any gun can get that way though some start that way, I'm not going to dis your choice. (well I did dis that Judge, it deserves it) :neener:

Clutch

Twiki357
June 4, 2011, 06:46 PM
Don’t have a HK (or a H&K) or any variation of a Taurus so I don’t hate either. But if any of the haters do have them and want an unbiased opinion, I’d be glad to give you my FFL’s mailing address and I’ll evaluate them for a few decades. :D

LDNN
June 4, 2011, 07:08 PM
I don't hate the brands, I just won't buy some brand because they don't look appealing or the ergonomics is poor for me.

bayhawk2
June 4, 2011, 07:08 PM
Taurus-You love em or hate em.I have the
Taurus Judge and the Taurus .44 Mag Tracker.
No flaws in either.I reload for the Tracker and
shoot the Federal Handgun .410 000 Buck in
the Judge.Both are awesome firearms.Had a guy in another
site say the .410 Judge will only cause "superficial" wounds
to the B/G.Once again.He said he never owned one or even
held one in his negative typing fingers.Just how he hated
Taurus and said they were junk.I try figure out how someone
can give a review on a gun that they have never owned,held,
or shot.

Gunnerpalace
June 4, 2011, 07:28 PM
People hate on HK because of ignorance, and perpetuated falsehoods.

Taurus Judges, are disliked because Taurus markets them as the do all end all pistol,

merlinfire
June 4, 2011, 07:43 PM
I will say that companies that give the perception that they're not particularly interested in giving the civilian market a fair shake, do get on my nerves. But I'm not naming any names.

joeq
June 4, 2011, 08:41 PM
Some hate is from actual bad experiences with certain brands and most isn't. I think most of the hate is just from hearing other people bash certain brands. If I listened to the majority I would be a Taurus hater. I own several Taurus pistols and have had zero issues with any of them. Am I just lucky or is Taurus not as bad as you would be lead to believe on most forums? Your guess is as good as mine. You probably shouldn't bash it unless you've given it a legitimate try. I will be keeping my Taurus pistols and probably buying more in the future. Believe me, I'm not saying Taurus hasn't had their fair share of problems I'm just saying things quickly become over blown on the internet.

Kliegl
June 4, 2011, 10:41 PM
I think a gun company can sell, or not sell, to whatever group of people they want. I also think people tend to vote with their pocketbooks in all things, gun brand selection included.

Stuff they can afford is the good stuff, stuff they can't is overpriced, elitist garbage, and stuff that is cheaper than what they can afford is low-quality-control junk with bad customer service.

I will definitely agree with the previous post and maintain that one should try things before they judge them, lest they be speaking out of ignorance.

orionengnr
June 4, 2011, 10:47 PM
Why do people hate Taurus?
Hmmm...have you done any reading on actual experiences with Taurus Customer Service?

Nanook
June 4, 2011, 10:53 PM
I like all kinds of guns. I do dislike certain things about certain guns, though.

I've had one Taurus, a model 608 revolver. It was perfectly fine, no issues at all. I sold it so I could buy a Marlin .357 lever gun. Both the buyer and I were very happy.

I've had trouble with two S&W center-fire semi-autos, which makes me wary of buying another. Still like their revolvers, though.

And for the record, Springfield IS selling a re-badged Croatian pistol, and I really like them. But that's pretty much what it started out life as, HS-2000 or some such. The XD line is fine with me, I have two of them and am considering a third.

Glocks feed just about anything you give them, but I don't own one. I'm considering a Glock 19, though. It feels pretty good in my hand, unlike the 21 I had and sold a few years back.

I've never in my life owned either a Colt or a Winchester. I didn't do it on purpose, it just happened. I came close with Colt a couple of times, but it didn't work out. Came this close to trading for a 6920 AR, but it didn't happen.

H&K has always been too expensive for my blood. I have other interests along with guns, and they just want too much for their guns. Years ago, I owned a P7 which I really liked, and wish I never sold. I also owned an HK 91 which didn't suit me, so I sold it. I'd like a do-over on that one, considering how much they go for these days.

Sunray
June 4, 2011, 10:56 PM
"...it's abbreviated HK, not H&K..." Only in the U.S.
"...its the Ford vs Chevy arguments..." Exactly.

Larry E
June 4, 2011, 10:59 PM
I can't say I hate any guns, but there are some that I'd rather not be seen in possession of. Sort of like dating the ugliest girl around, she may be fun to be with, but there aren't enough bags in the world....

Ford vs Chevy, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder I think.

joeq
June 4, 2011, 11:03 PM
Hmmm...have you done any reading on actual experiences with Taurus Customer Service?

Have you actually dealt with Taurus? If so, please share your experience. If not, then you're just like everyone else that has read something. I am all for people sharing their experience with certain brands but they must have that personal experience. I'm not calling you out, I just want to hear what you have to say.

rodensouth
June 4, 2011, 11:06 PM
Kliegl, I'm in your camp.

Sooner1911
June 4, 2011, 11:13 PM
IMHO, many times people just don't know any better or have to run down what other people have to feel better about themselves. Other times, I think it is the legitimate result of one or more bad experiences with a brand that colors that persons outlook forever. My dad flipped a 56 Chevy Bel Air 2 1/2 times and the car held together. His buddy rolled a 57 Dodge once and he said the body panels were hanging loose. IIRC, he said something about welds being the problem. From then on, he would never consider a Dodge product. I guess it all goes back to the disappointment of poor quality lingering long after any $ savings are forgotten. If I had listened to all of the internet rumors, I would never have purchased my 2 Kimber 1911s and my 1 S&W 1911. They work for me and feed FMJ and JHP just fine and the dreaded external extractor on my Smith is just fine. At the end of the day, different strokes for different folks. Buy what you want and don't worry about what other people think or life will likely be very frustrating.

Kliegl
June 4, 2011, 11:33 PM
Sunray, I'm pretty sure the logo says HK everywhere....

I'm with Joeq. I've had two experiences with Taurus customer service, one was good, and the other (ordering some mags which have yet to be available) is still pending. Anything you read on the internet is something you just read on the internet. I can put up a webpage saying I'm the most endowed man on the planet, but it doesn't necessarily make it true.

I don't think it's Fords vs Chevy (Olds had more torque than either, by the way), but rather it's a price vs quality thing. Some guns people think are beneath them, some guns people think are only for snobs and rich folks.

MachIVshooter
June 4, 2011, 11:34 PM
People hate on HK because of ignorance, and perpetuated falsehoods.

Yeah, that's it. or maybe it's for some of the reasons correia mentioned. Let's do a breakdown of some of the reasons I don't like H&K.

The ones I've owned:

USP-was all about them when I was younger because GUNS magazine featured it and really bragged it up. Then I actually bought one, a stainless .45. Unbalanced, felt like a 2x4, crappy trigger, trigger guard rubbed my finger raw in ~200 rounds, difficult and counter intuitive safety.

G3-Heavy, stock is too short, wont accept optics without $100 B square mount, nasty recoil impulse, heavy, nasty trigger, poorly thought out safety/selector location, destroys brass (assuming you can find it), heavy.

The one's I've shot:

-USP 9 and .40-Almost as big as the .45, just as uncomfortable.

-MP5. Decent subgun, much prefer a 9mm AR

-Mk23-like the USP .45, only even more uncomfortable and 2.5 times the price. Lots of better guns for a whole lot less money.

-VP-70. Just ick. I don't know what they were smoking when they thought this thing up, but it is a god awful pistol. Like a Hi-Point, but heavier, uglier and less reliable. And Hi-Point has better CS.

-P7M8-hideous, heavy, uncomfortable and burns you if you dare touch the slide after a couple of mags due to it's silly gas delayed blowback system. I mean, the squeeze cocker is just redonculous.


Seriously, if HK's were so great, they'd be copied like 1911's, Glocks, AR's and a host of other well thought out, well executed designs.

Larry Corriea pretty much nailed it in his write-up.

Tomcat47
June 4, 2011, 11:40 PM
Just like I am a Ford Man!

But D@!* the deal I got on that Silverado 2500 in the driveway!

But some are not that willing to bend! ;)

But My Safe is full of all I love and those I tend to dislike but were good deals or great trades!

And I am not into Glocks! Dont like em , dont even like looking at them! But they are reliable and dependable, and I am sure one will visit my safe before it is overwith!

But That ^ is of course your point....I dont like Glocks! Have Not Owned Glocks...therefore I dont bash Glocks...other than I dont like the way they look!...and praise their reliability and dependability that is really a no brainer when looking at their track record.

And Taurus...oh a fan I AM! and out of years of ownership all the way back to early 80's and quantity near 50 firearms that have passed through my hands or still rmains in my safe.. not one warranted complaint do I have...and customer service has always treated me very well and satisfied any problems I have had.

As has Beretta! As Has S&W!, As Has Ruger!,As Has Colt!.....I have had no bad CS experiences...maybe my calming demeanor or patient nature or maybe as a machinist I just understand machines and the laws of nature and do not get upset when something wears out or breaks or does not function as we expect it to?? :confused:

But I get your thoughts too! I always wonder when I read a CS complaint just all that was involved that turned one sour toward a particular company!...when there gun malfunctioned did they expect immediate restitution...fedex should have been in there driveway while they were on the phone...the shipping should be covered and when it is returned I should get stock in your company.... I have seen a lot of situations that are hard to figure out..Taurus in particular...some have had to pay shipping...some have not...some have took weeks,,,,some have took only days....some have gotten more than just the problem resolved...they got extras as an apology I suppose.

It is a perplexing question (the hate)...one that will never be answered or resolved I speculate? It seems Gun Brands are like marriages..they either work or end up in Divorce Court with bitter shades of betrayal! :scrutiny:

USAF_Vet
June 4, 2011, 11:47 PM
People are going to buy A) what they like and can afford, or B) what they will settle for because they can't afford what they want. People will also buy C) things other people like, mostly due to ignorance and status desires.
My family and friends don't give a rip that I own a Hi Point, but internet gun snobs I'll never meet sure seem to.

Odds are, I'll never own an H&K, mostly due to price. A gun is a gun, and as long as it goes bang when I want it to and doesn't when I don't, I'm good with that. I don't need someone's approval of my purchase for me to enjoy it.

Gunnerpalace
June 4, 2011, 11:52 PM
Larry Corriea pretty much nailed it in his write-up.

No he did not,

You have valid points, he did not.

Except that their customer service is on par with Dell's that's true.

joeq
June 5, 2011, 02:12 AM
Odds are, I'll never own an H&K, mostly due to price. A gun is a gun, and as long as it goes bang when I want it to and doesn't when I don't, I'm good with that. I don't need someone's approval of my purchase for me to enjoy it.

That's all that matters. :)

hardluk1
June 5, 2011, 08:09 AM
I have 2 Taurus handguns. Both have many years and many rounds fired. My 1 and only CS experience was as good as I could hope for. Sent my old and well used model 94 in as it would not relieably fire 22's any more. 2 weeks total time gone till it was back with a new fireing pin . This was about 8 months ago. Works like new again. Not bad for a 20+ year old revolver with 2 kids and me working hard to wear in out. This was my practice gun for the 85SS i carried for 22 years. 2 great handguns.

CajunBass
June 5, 2011, 08:27 AM
Because tearing down something someone else has makes people feel better about what they do have.

Walkalong
June 5, 2011, 09:11 AM
-- That Kimber used to put out a great product, but now they are so unreliable that if you used one as a paperweight it would probably fall off your desk..I had one so bad papers blew out from under...and it fell off the desk. Fortunately, it landed on the MIM grip safety, which broke, and didn't damage the hardwood floor.Very funny reply, and I love my Kimber (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=113515&d=1263749343), although I did replace the slide stop and thumb safety. :D

oldvet53
June 5, 2011, 09:14 AM
I own a Rock Island Armory 1911A1 FS G.I. Government model, I know that a lot of people don't like the Philippine built guns but I got out the door with 50 rounds and FFl transfer for $500.00 and this is built as good and works as well as many 1911's that cost twice the price. So I know I'll receive flack over that about mim parts but most built here do also and if I can buy 2 that work as well and have the best CS that I have encountered and a life time warranty I'll shoot mine and enjoy it at less than half the price.

EddieNFL
June 5, 2011, 09:28 AM
Stuff they can afford is the good stuff, stuff they can't is overpriced, elitist garbage, and stuff that is cheaper than what they can afford is low-quality-control junk with bad customer service.

Dr. Phil's got nothing on you, brother.

I'll never own an H&K. I refuse to pay for a firearm that has the "&" symbol in it's name.

Ole Coot
June 5, 2011, 09:54 AM
Hate is a pretty strong word. Some firearms I don't like and won't buy some but what works for you I don't insult. To each his own.

Guillermo
June 5, 2011, 10:40 AM
I guess I am not a hater because I don't loathe any of the guns you mentioned


HK...don't have any strong feelings other than affection for my P7

Taurus...not in the market for one but they are the best value of the big 3 (Smith quality and 60% of the price)

Judge...silly useless gun but I don't hate it. Toys have their place. If it goes bang and the owner is happy I am all for it.

Kliegl
June 5, 2011, 10:46 AM
Eddie, there's no & in the name. Certain people, including one on this board, know that, and persist in being wrong for reasons of their own choosing. Technically, the article between the two guys' names is und, which is German for 'and'. Here is a picture (copyright me, sometime last year) cropped down to show the relevant logo on the slide of my USP (which has a sensible safety, fine trigger, balances well with a loaded mag, and whose trigger guard is not a problem at all.)

http://www.landofjohn.com/misc/HK.jpg

Tomcat47
June 5, 2011, 10:48 AM
Cajun... You said it all in 16 words!

Because tearing down something someone else has makes people feel better about what they do have.

Tomcat47
June 5, 2011, 10:50 AM
....may have been referring to S & W........ :scrutiny:

Kliegl
June 5, 2011, 10:56 AM
I'll never own an H&K. I refuse to pay for a firearm that has the "&" symbol in it's name.

The contextual relationship sort of implies he means HK. However, it might be a jab at S&W as well, like you suggest.

doc2rn
June 5, 2011, 11:01 AM
Can't speak for the HK's since I have never owned one, but Colt Glock and HK koolaid is the same where ever you go so why pay more for it.

As for a reason to hate Taurus I have 3.
Brand new 92 clone litterally fell apart as the first magazine was put through it. Stopped being shootable after round 6. Total 17 pieces one was never recovered and when shipped back in for CS they claimed a design change so they sent me the pieces back. I had to hire a gunsmith to machine the missing piece so I could sell it.
Had a .357 Titanium cylinder crack on #2 and they wouldnt replace it either.
#3 .17 HMR instant backup, necked rounds pushed back out of the cylinder causing the cylinder to bind every 3-4 shots.

3 strikes no more money from me and I sold both of the good Taurus revolvers I did own.

USAF_Vet
June 5, 2011, 11:02 AM
All ampersands aside, when I was stationed in Germany, (Rhein-Main AB, Frankfurt) all the German military, Air Force and Army alike, called them H und (and) K, or Heckler und/ and Koch. Considering this, I've always called them H&K. Not a big deal, nothing to get irate over. I don't get irate when people type High Point.

alienbogey
June 5, 2011, 11:03 AM
Opinions are opinions, and it's funny how the feature sets that inspires hate in some people will inspire love in others.

For example, some have called the Judge stupid for being an overly large/long revolver that will shoot 45Colt and .410, but those are the reasons that other people buy them.

Another example:

"-P7M8-hideous, heavy, uncomfortable and burns you if you dare touch the slide after a couple of mags due to it's silly gas delayed blowback system. I mean, the squeeze cocker is just redonculous."

My opinion, based on owning three P7's (the PSP variant), is that they're beautiful, no heavier than any other non-polymer pistol for the size, great ergonomically, gets hot in the trigger area if you shoot many (not just 'a couple') consecutive mags (just set it down and let it cool a bit) due to it's brilliant gas delayed blowback system (the slide gets hot just like any other semi-auto), and the squeeze-cocker system is also brilliant.

The exact same things that make MachIVShooter dislike the P7 make me love it.

Can't help adding: My one experience with HK CS was pleasant people and prompt repair and return for a reasonable price.

carbuncle
June 5, 2011, 11:06 AM
1) I don't , love 'em.

2) I don't, not the best guns but they fit a need. If I was hard up for cash and needed a revolver I'd buy a Taurus.

3) I don't hate the Judge, just don't need or have any use for one.

Kliegl
June 5, 2011, 12:19 PM
Fair enough, USAF.

On HK CS, I did send my USP Elite in because it had the tiniest bit of creep in the trigger, and I like my triggers up there in 1911 awesome land. They sent it back, said it had no issues, and updated the sear and springs to current on it (the main recoil spring is lighter, and the secondary is heavier.) No issues with their CS.

wrs840
June 5, 2011, 12:28 PM
Fanboyism and brand Loyalty:

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

Rail Driver
June 5, 2011, 12:41 PM
Several things to consider:
1) None of these statements are universally true.
2) None of these statements are universally false.
3) When a gun is good, 1 person out of 100 tells someone.
4) When a gun is bad, or the user thinks it's bad, that one user will tell everyone, repeatedly.

and 5) When a gun owner speaks well of a particular gun, they are accused of being a "fanboy".

trex1310
June 5, 2011, 01:19 PM
My exprience with Tawruss hasn't been pleasant. I've never owned a
H&K. A Sig Sour P229 Equinox was the worst weapon I have owned lately. It would jam with any and all types of ammo. I sold it after 2 months.

EddieNFL
June 5, 2011, 01:20 PM
Eddie, there's no & in the name. Certain people, including one on this board, know that, and persist in being wrong for reasons of their own choosing.

I knew it, also. Sometimes, I intentionally use clip instead of magazine, bullet instead of cartridge and pistol instead of revolver.

wrs840
June 5, 2011, 01:24 PM
and 5) When a gun owner speaks well of a particular gun, they are accused of being a "fanboy".

Ha! The article is more about the psychology of "why the hate", which is kind of a "I love Ford to the exclusion of Chevy, because my choice is a display of whether I'm smart / savvy with my choices when buying expensive stuff. It's ego driven.

Another now pertinent point from the article: "Usually, these arguments are between men, because men will defend their ego no matter how slight the insult..."

USAF_Vet
June 5, 2011, 01:27 PM
and 5) When a gun owner speaks well of a particular gun, they are accused of being a "fanboy".

Not quite. When people incessantly nitpick over inconsequential things they delve into Fanboy-ish behavior. Some things, IMPO, just aren't big enough to justify the expense of energy and time, like nitpicking over whether or not the company name has a certain logogram or not.

buck460XVR
June 5, 2011, 01:27 PM
I don't "hate" any gun. There are some I like better than others, but why someone chooses to hate an inanimate object that has no control over it's origin and it's destiny, bewilders the befuddle outta me.

MachIVshooter
June 5, 2011, 01:29 PM
I'll never own an H&K. I refuse to pay for a firearm that has the "&" symbol in it's name.

You're cutting out an awful lot of really good options out there.

My opinion, based on owning three P7's (the PSP variant), is that they're beautiful

Subjective, just our opinions on that. So perfectly fair either way.

no heavier than any other non-polymer pistol for the size,

One of it's nearest competitors for size and capacity is the S&W 3913, which is a full 5 ounces (20%) lighter.

great ergonomically,

Again, that's pretty subjective, but most people I know who have handled one found it awkward because of the squeeze cocker. It is quite a bit thinker than other single stack 9mm's and requires a very firm grip to function, much moreso than a grip safety as on the 1911.

due to it's brilliant gas delayed blowback system (the slide gets hot just like any other semi-auto),

I disagree that it's "brilliant". There are simpler delay systems, not including normal short recoil (roller, dropping block, the unique Pedersen design found on the Remington 51/53) that are more cost effective and don't complicate take-down. And the P7 gets a lot hotter than any other 9mm I have experience with. I can run hundreds of rounds rapid-fire through my 5906 or baby eagle and touch the slide without searing my skin to the metal. The only other 9mm's I can think of that become unpleasant to grab are those like the Beretta, with an exposed barrel.

and the squeeze-cocker system is also brilliant.

I suppose if you like it. But again, I submit that if it were so great, it would be widely copied. It is not.

If the P7 works for you, great. But for me (and most others, as evidenced by sales), $1,300 is way too much money for a gun that doesn't offer any advantage over pistols in the $400-$600 range.

Guillermo
June 5, 2011, 01:33 PM
$1,300 is way too much money for a gun that doesn't offer any advantage over pistols in the $400-$600 range.

I paid 600 for my P7

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/BillLoeb/photo4.jpg

no way I would have it if it cost 13 bills

What gun is worth that?

:what:

Fleetwood_Captain
June 5, 2011, 01:36 PM
Well I think that in the case of HK, they strike people as a bit of an oddball because of their non-traditional designs. And because they fall in line price-wise with the more traditional Sig, a lot of people with that price range in mind just buy the Sig instead.

But the hate for Taurus, that's easy. Taurus isn't a "top shelf" manufacturer and most of their designs are copies. Why buy a new replica that doesn't really have a collector following when you can buy the real thing, previously used, for about the same price?

merlinfire
June 5, 2011, 01:46 PM
Fanboyism and brand Loyalty:

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/...brand-loyalty/

You summed this whole thread up in a nutshell with scientific proof, and I wonder how many even bothered to read it.

Kliegl
June 5, 2011, 02:10 PM
Oh, I sure did. This right here is awesome.

Apple advertising, for instance, doesn’t mention how good their computers are. Instead, they give you examples of the sort of people who purchase those computers. The idea is to encourage you to say, “Yeah, I’m not some stuffy, conservative nerd. I have taste and talent and took art classes in college.”

And OMG that HK has a &!!!! <falls over dead>

Nagant
June 5, 2011, 02:18 PM
I don't really hate anything, as long as the manufacturer is honest about what they are selling.

I saw some folks who were totally new to shooting who had bought a couple of jimenez arms pistols. I was not impressed by the guns (or the people shooting them, that's another story)... and I would say that I border on hating guns that are so poorly made that somehow both guns these people were shooting (brand new out of the box) were BROKEN within 15 minutes of the first shot. That, to me, can't be summed up as a coincidence.... I now have an even worse opinion of jimenez arms because of this. That's just me :D

EddieNFL
June 5, 2011, 02:50 PM
....may have been referring to S & W........ :scrutiny:
I would have to dig one out of the bottom of the safe, but I don't recall a "&" in the S&W logo, either.

You're cutting out an awful lot of really good options out there.

It was a joke. But I will probably never will buy and H&K...just not my cup 'o tea.

Bernie Lomax
June 5, 2011, 04:02 PM
That Mossberg has lost all credibility as a serious gun manufacturer ever since they started marketing all these dumb-as-dog-poo PGO shotgun variants with fake suppressors, .50 BMG muzzle brakes, "breacher chokes" and other goofiness hanging off them.

Mall ninja cash spends just like regular cash. Mossberg is just picking up some money that they had previously left lying down on the floor, that's all. :D

Sam1911
June 5, 2011, 04:21 PM
and 5) When a gun owner speaks well of a particular gun, they are accused of being a "fanboy".


...and 6) When a gun owner has a problem with a particular gun, or expresses distaste for some feature, they are a "hater." ;) (Or in the case of some dude I remember from last year, a "hatter," though that was just confusing.)

Nothing is worth, or not worth, defending to the death, or not, as a good, or bad, opinion, as long as it does, or doesn't correspond with mine, and I will, or won't, defend or attack, your right to express, or not express, that opinion, to the very death ... especially if that battle involves nothing more than a keyboard and a lot of hot, sweaty air ... and if by "death" you mean being insulted by, or insulting, others up to and including the very point of -- well, if it has to come to it -- being temporarily or permanently kicked off of some internet message board.

This is serious stuff, folks! ;)

EddieNFL
June 5, 2011, 05:17 PM
Or in the case of some dude I remember from last year, a "hatter," though that was just confusing

Was he mad?

Ky Larry
June 5, 2011, 07:58 PM
I don't hate any brand of gun. I buy what I like and keep what works for me. After almost 50 years of gun ownership and shooting, I don't care what you shoot or what you think of what I shoot. Your opinion is like your waste evacuation orafice. It's just not very important to me. Just my $0.02 worth.

Sam1911
June 5, 2011, 08:31 PM
Was he mad? Eventually I think the consensus was yes.

SFsc616171
June 5, 2011, 08:51 PM
My braggers: S&W Model 15-3, refinished in black teflon and Hogue-gripped by the west coast PD who sold it; S&W Model 15-3 in nickel; Taurus M82; Taurus M850-blue; Browning BHP MKIII SHOT Show digi-camo model.

Locker queen: Browning BHP MKII in USAF Blue. Shoots well, but with MKIII, keeping for posterity.

Banished to the locker until I decide what to do with it: Taurus M905IB 9mm.

antiquus
June 5, 2011, 10:08 PM
Opinions are pretty much like everything else everybody has one of.

I never met a gun I didn't like. Even the Ring of Fire crap, it's just a challenge to figure what it would take to fix it, and see if it's cost prohibitive. If it is, sell it, on to the next project.

Taurus gets a lot of credit for their CS, it may take 5 weeks but they don't quibble on the phone and they aren't scared to replace the whole gun if needed. One of their 1911's may be in my future, because when the time comes I'll lay one on the counter next to the SR1911 and check operation, features and price and after an adjustment for where it's made (as I live here, and want guns to be made here) I''ll make a choice and that choice will be one that I'm content with.

HK's never entered my thinking much, I'm more of a S&W fan so auto's don't dominate my thinking much although I've shot most everything at one time or other. But I happened to come into possession of a USP 9 from a friend in a computer parts deal, and I can say they are pretty much what's advertised, how they manage the recoil I have no clue but it's different to shoot and for me it's a natural point. But it's a large gun, 1911 large and wider, and it will never be a carry piece. Are they worth hundreds more than a Sig? No, but full sized Sigs cost as much.

tiffa
June 5, 2011, 10:10 PM
Thank god! I have been wanting to know! Now we know!

Sam Cade
June 6, 2011, 12:24 AM
Eddie, there's no & in the name. Certain people, including one on this board, know that, and persist in being wrong for reasons of their own choosing. Technically, the article between the two guys' names is und, which is German for 'and'. Here is a picture (copyright me, sometime last year) cropped down to show the relevant logo on the slide of my USP (which has a sensible safety, fine trigger, balances well with a loaded mag, and whose trigger guard is not a problem at all.)


Hilarious...and totally wrong. A logo is just that, a logo, nothing more.



Hey look, its their corporate website!
http://www.heckler-koch.de/Company

What they say about themselves:
Seit mehr als 50 Jahren erfüllen die Produkte von
Heckler & Koch die anspruchvollsten Anforderungen von Sicherheitskräften, Polizeien und Sondereinsatzkräften sowie der Bundeswehr, der NATO und NATO assoziierter Staaten im Bereich der Handfeuerwaffen.

...and look here at their business address:
Heckler & Koch-Str. 1
78727 Oberndorf a. N., Germany


The legally registered name of the corporate entity is
"Heckler & Koch GmbH, Oberndorf"

...and attached is a picture of the sign in front of their Oberndorf production facility.

Sam Cade
June 6, 2011, 12:41 AM
...but wait, there is more!

If you want to contact H&K in the states, what is the name of the US subsidiary?

HECKLER & KOCH
5675 Transport Boulevard
Columbus, Georgia 31907 USA

MachIVshooter
June 6, 2011, 01:39 AM
no way I would have it if it cost 13 bills

What gun is worth that?

Worth it? Very few handguns. Cost it? Too many.

Having sold my Desert Eagle .50, I don't own any pistols worth more than $1,000.

I would have to dig one out of the bottom of the safe, but I don't recall a "&" in the S&W logo, either.

There is. It's subtly twisted around the S, behind the W

http://www.seeklogo.com/images/S/s_and_w-logo-8748F6DED3-seeklogo.com.gif

Justin
June 6, 2011, 02:36 PM
The previously posted link to youarenotsosmart.com hits the nail right on the head.

The bottom line is this: We live in a time and place where the majority of guns made by most companies are of such robust quality that there is no measurable difference from one maker to the next when it comes to the vast majority of people who own guns. (Yes, I'm talking to you.)

For most gun owners, there's no functional difference between, say, a gun made by Taurus and a similar model from S&W. The vast majority of owners will never, ever fire enough rounds through either gun to be able to tell a difference on all but the most superficial level, and it doesn't matter if a gun from Brand X will wear out faster than one from Brand Y because it will take many tens of thousands of rounds before that even becomes an issue.

bg
June 6, 2011, 09:56 PM
Gosh I know what this brand deal means..I have a Bersa 380 and am most times
hearing about how they are basically just cheap throw-aways, but this lil pistola
has been a blast to shoot and much cheaper in ammo compared to my 45 long
colt rounds which I use in my old Colt SAA and Ruger's.

It ain't purty, but it shoots.

Sam1911
June 7, 2011, 06:38 AM
[If there's value in continuing this thread, let's drop the "does it have an '&' symbol" argument and insult. If we really have nothing better to discuss here, then this thread must be done.]

kingcheese
June 7, 2011, 09:31 AM
well if i had to choose between having a baseball bat or having a taruas, id choose the taruas(maybe)

its not so much i absolutly hate them, its that there are other guns that fit my intrests a lot more

like i would rather by a reproduction black powder revolver then a taraus, or a ppk, or a 1911, or a p.08, or a p38, seeing a trend? i just like older style weapons

the hk part, if i wanted a tactical pistol then it would be perfect, thing is, i dont want anything that modular for that kinda price

Sam1911
June 7, 2011, 09:38 PM
Sufficiently answered dozens of times by now.

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