EAA Witness, 10mm Versus .45 ACP


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TheNative
June 5, 2011, 09:38 PM
Which caliber is the better choice for a target practice/plinking/woods gun? What handgun brand may be a better choice than EAA? I have heard the 10mm outperforms the 'ol .45 ACP with penetration and velocity, but I am not sure. Opinions?

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highlander 5
June 5, 2011, 09:47 PM
I would go with the 45 auto. The 10 mm is a much more powerful round but power isn't everything. Your biggest problem is will you be able to find 10 mm ammo at Bob's diner and gunshop in East Overshoe USA. Haven't priced 10 mm ammo but I'm willing to bet it's at least twice as expensive as 45 auto.

TheNative
June 5, 2011, 09:56 PM
Thank you, and I could imagine the 10mm being more pricey than the .45 auto. Also heard that the EAA frames cracking when shooting the 10mm. I chose EAA, because you can easily convert from .45, 10mm to .22 LR.

atblis
June 5, 2011, 10:16 PM
They do crack some slides. That issue has popped up a few times over the years.

The swapping calibers thing is kind of misleading. It's basically because A) The frame to slide fit is not that tight B) EAA/Tanfoglio will sell you the slides/barrels.

You can do the same with a Glock. Lone wolf sells slides and barrels.

BTW, EAA customer service is awful. Tanfoglio does turn out the odd lemon, so it's quite possible you'd need some customer service. The Witnesses are fun guns, just don't pay too much for one.

wristtwister
June 6, 2011, 12:09 AM
I've got both slide sets for my EAA witness and multiples for the 10MM... I found that ammo for it at the gun show was plentiful and cost about the same as the ammo for the .45. I can reload, so getting 500 rounds of reloadable brass can keep me shooting for some time...

The 10MM EAA is an awesome little gun... it just sits and rocks in your hand when you shoot it... very little felt recoil considering the blunderbuss-sized shell it uses. No issues with the parts cracking either... so I'll pass on buying a Glock. They never fit my hand, and as far as I can tell, they don't cure cancer, but I'm sure there's somebody out there that will claim they do...:uhoh:

WT

Tape
June 6, 2011, 12:32 AM
10mm ammo isn't so expensive, why do people think that? and they also think it's hard to find. I purchased 9 boxes as easy as playing with the computer mouse, at my door in 2 to 3 days. I would stay with a 10.

IdahoLT1
June 6, 2011, 12:39 AM
The 10mm is the far better round ballistically. When loaded to its potential, it has as much energy at 100yds than the .45 does at the muzzle. Its a far deeper penetrator and because of that, it makes it the better woods gun.

As far as availability, you can get it at many internet retail sites or big box stores. The good, quality self defense or top shelf loads are within the same price range. The .45 is cheaper when considering cheap range/plinking ammo.

swinokur
June 6, 2011, 05:16 AM
When you say "woods gun" do you mean SD from 4 legged creatures?

If so the 10mm is a better choice. If it's 2 legged varmints, either would work IMO

The 10mm is a very flexible round in terms of different power loads and barrel options.

TheNative
June 17, 2011, 10:46 AM
A friend of mine came up to me with a 10mm EAA Witness in his hand. He has reported no problems with the slide or anything. I guess he has owned it for a few years, and has been shooting almost non-stop. He believes the 10mm is ballistically superior to the .45, in terms of velocity and accuracy.

TheNative
June 17, 2011, 10:50 AM
swinokur:

By "woods gun", I meant a gun that would be accurate and reliable, but more for shooting at cans. I could use it for the four-legged variety, but luckily I do not have to deal with the two-legged ones much where I am at.

MachIVshooter
June 17, 2011, 11:10 AM
The cracking slides were an issue with the briefly produced rounded slide models. Just wasn't enough material. Neither of my 10mm Witnesses have had any problems, nor has anyone I've known.

EAA's customer service isn't as bad as everyone likes to parrot, but it probably would be if you have an attitude when you call them believing they're gonna be rude anyway. I've never needed warranty work on my witnesses, but when I called with questions or to order magazines and such, I was polite and friendly, and it was reciprocated.

As for which cartridge, IMO, the 10mm makes more sense. As has been covered, the ammo cost difference is negligeable, and availability of 10mm is pretty good (unless you only shop Walmart for ammunition). The 10mm offers a huge increase in power (+P .45 vs. full power 10mm is nearly a 300 ft/lb difference, from a little over 500 to almost 800), and the magazine capacity of the 10 is 50% higher.

mokin
June 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
Unless you reload, you'll probably get more gun for your money with the .45. I've found that ammunition for the 10mm isn't that much more expensive or even that much harder to find than .45 but I have found when I chronograph different loads fired from my Glock 29 that the velocities are a lot lower than what are published. I recently clocked some Winchester 175 grain Silvertips and found an average velocity of 1100fps rather than the 1290 advertised. Note: 1100 fps is a lot faster than 900 fps (230 grain) advertised for most .45s. I love my 10mm Glock 29 and doubt I'd ever trade it for a .45 but I also like to develope loads for it.

ranburr
June 17, 2011, 04:16 PM
10mm all the way. Very accurate, about the same cost as .45 these days. Much better performance on game animals.

swinokur
June 17, 2011, 05:43 PM
Swampfox, and Buffalo Bore both make very hot 10 mm loads. Double Tap as well

IdahoLT1
June 17, 2011, 07:30 PM
Unless you reload, you'll probably get more gun for your money with the .45. I've found that ammunition for the 10mm isn't that much more expensive or even that much harder to find than .45 but I have found when I chronograph different loads fired from my Glock 29 that the velocities are a lot lower than what are published. I recently clocked some Winchester 175 grain Silvertips and found an average velocity of 1100fps rather than the 1290 advertised. Note: 1100 fps is a lot faster than 900 fps (230 grain) advertised for most .45s. I love my 10mm Glock 29 and doubt I'd ever trade it for a .45 but I also like to develope loads for it.

Uhh.... youre getting lower velocities than the published one because youre using a shorter barrel. 1100FPS is actually a pretty standard chrono out of a G29 using that ammo. When Winchester published the 1290fps, they were using a 5" barrel.

Thompsoncustom
June 17, 2011, 10:39 PM
I would say 10mm and if you reload even better as you can load the 10mm as a 40S&W (power Wise) or really hot loads. seems to me that it has better ballistics and is a better all around cartridge.

atblis
June 18, 2011, 11:13 AM
EAA's customer service isn't as bad as everyone likes to parrot, but it probably would be if you have an attitude when you call them believing they're gonna be rude anyway. I've never needed warranty work on my witnesses, but when I called with questions or to order magazines and such, I was polite and friendly, and it was reciprocated.
Oh yes it is. I've experienced it first hand a few times. That was enough, no more EAA for me.

Overkilll0084
June 18, 2011, 11:29 AM
I have a Witness Match .45, EAAs are pretty nice pistols. Accurate, reliable.
This is just my personal opinion, but I think much of the slide cracking is due to the wimpy recoil spring they come with from the factory.
14 lb is what Wolff has on their web site for stock:

http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=19

Factory Rating: 14 Lb. - 9mm, .45 ACP, Super .38 and 10mm

Maybe it's just my ignorance of engineering, but a 9mm and a 10mm sharing the same spring seems like a problem for at least one of them. I'm running an 18 lb spring in my .45 with midrange reloads and it cycles fine. If you like the 10mm, get the 10 mm and buy a Wolff XP calibration pack to go with it. As always, YMMV.

Apocalypse-Now
June 18, 2011, 12:15 PM
swampfox, HPR, and buffalo bore are the only 10mm ammo makes that currently meet their advertised specs. double tap falls short by up to 200fps, google it, been happening for a while.


of those, swampfox and hpr are the only ones that offer a quality bullet. hpr uses xtp jhp's, and swampfox uses xtp and gold dots. hpr currently has them on sale for $35/box 50 rounds, and swampfox is about $50/box 50 rounds.

buffalo bore charges an obscene price for garbage jhp's (montana gold). these jhp's are designed to expand, but rather are designed not to fragment/ricochet for steel shoots. double tap uses these garbage bullets as well as their "bonded" rounds, and their 10mm ammo also falls up to 200fps short of the advertised velocity. it's been a known issue for a while. easy to research with a little googling.


the heavier 200gr 10mm loads do indeed penetrate more than 45acp. i have a glock 29 that i plan to boar hunt with. i have wolff 21lb springs for it to tame recoil and keep the frame from being spanked lol


10mm is an awesome round, much more versatile than 45acp as it can be loaded to a wider variety of muzzle velocities, but is expensive if you don't roll your own (i don't), so it's not for everyone. i don't get to fire mine much anymore due to ammo costs.

swinokur
June 18, 2011, 01:32 PM
The last DT's I bought were 180g Noslers. About 4 months ago

JROC
June 18, 2011, 07:51 PM
10mm ammo isn't so expensive, why do people think that?

x2.

I mean it's pretty costly ammo, but so is .45ACP, and there's not that much of a difference between the cost of the two. One advantage .45ACP has is it's easier to find, but you can find 10mm all day on the internet, and most bigger fun shops carry 10mm of some sort even if it's watered down FBI loads.

For me personally the biggest problem with 10mm is its taken most the love I had for .45ACP and thrown it out the window. I just think it is a awesome round. I would rather have a 1911 in .45ACP because it's traditional 1911,(I would love to have a 10mm 1911 to go along with my .45ACP 1911 though) but if I had the choice in about in other gun I would take 10mm over .45ACP without giving it a second though.

Many people criticize the 10mm for all the watered down loads on the market, but I love that stuff. It's makes a 10mm a very pleasant gun to shoot as it's built to handle quite a bit more powerful loads. It's great for target shooting, and is good for a SD gun were people complain about over penetration. It still packs about the same punch as .40S&W, and I've never really considered a .40 cal a weak semi-auto. I love the Hornady 10mm stuff. Both the 180gr, and 200gr rounds are very accurate in my experience. When I shoot full power 10mm loads I like to destroy stuff like bricks and things like that. You hit a clay brick with one of those Swampfox 180gr hardcast rounds it'll turn half that brick into straight dust.

Don't get me wrong .45ACP is a proven/fine SD round. It has no problem doing the job it was intended for. But IMHO it's just 10mm is better at almost everything. I love the 10.

CZ-100
June 19, 2011, 08:06 AM
I purchased my 1st 10mm in 1988, a Colt Delta Elite, 1911 frame. It has been a great reliable gun, It sold me on the 10mm.

Today, I still have the Colt, I do not carry it, it is my Hog hunting gun, but carry my Glock 29SF, 10mm for self defense. Too me it is a Great compromise in Size, power and capacity.

Ammo availability is not bad at all, while I cannot go down to Wal-Mart and buy it, I can, with a few clicks of the mouse, have 1000s of rounds delivered to my home in a few days, at the same price as .45

I also have a Glock 30SF, the 29 and 30 share the same frame and recoil, in my opinion are comparable. I can also share holsters with the Two.

I personally love the 10mm, but it is not for everyone.

hardluk1
June 19, 2011, 09:55 AM
Very accurate pistols and what few have had problems it tends to be hotter loads with out upgradeing the recoil spring. Get the 10mm for protection field use and maybe a 9mm for any pratice or comp use. I bought my witness elit match for 499 a couple years ago and extra caliber kit was 195 then. With 4000 rounds each through 2 different calibers never had any issues.
Check out henningshootsguns for upgrades and accessories and brain enoss forums for there witness site.

wristtwister
June 19, 2011, 06:16 PM
As for EAA's customer service, I ordered a set of sights put on my 10MM long slide, and they sent me a whole new slide. It was back within two weeks from the time I sent it 'til the time it got back... and was sent U.S. Snail from the gunshop. I don't have any problem with their customer service... but I'd heard horror stories so I hesitated to contact them... seems the stories were just that...

WT

ranburr
June 19, 2011, 08:29 PM
Their customer svc and asst gunsmith were great to me. Their head gunsmith was the biggest ass on the planet.

atblis
June 19, 2011, 10:14 PM
As for EAA's customer service, I ordered a set of sights put on my 10MM long slide, and they sent me a whole new slide. It was back within two weeks from the time I sent it 'til the time it got back... and was sent U.S. Snail from the gunshop. I don't have any problem with their customer service... but I'd heard horror stories so I hesitated to contact them... seems the stories were just that...
So...what happened to your old slide?

Their head gunsmith was the biggest ass on the planet.
Ah, it sounds like you've met Paul. Unfortunately, he seems to have some sort of stake in the company rather than simply being the gunsmith.

hardluk1
June 20, 2011, 10:17 AM
E-mail not phone calls work best as he is the smithy there and tends to not have time for small talk. The gal that use to answer the phone was good about helping out. Wonder if she is the blond in the mag adds?

Why send anything in for a site change?? buy and do yourself

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