Dont Hurt me tooo much! Just a theory!


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tiffa
June 5, 2011, 11:18 PM
Cop agencies are the number one purchaser of a Glock Firearm.

I cant seem to get why Glock is such a large company when all they have done to their weapons is add some finger grooves for the most part.


Now, why did I mention the cops owning them? I would have to start by saying they sure as heck dont drive BMWS......


Now.... Why dont they have BMWS? They are fast and will obviously get the job done way quicker.


I have come to the conclusion that they sell them "CHEAP". Cause if they didnt Kahr or Sig or Colt would have a better contract than they do....

Glock=cheap
Cops cars=cheap


So why do people still like the glock?



I hope all this made sense cause it sure did when I thought of it in my head lol

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FIVETWOSEVEN
June 5, 2011, 11:29 PM
Glocks sold to us at the gunshop new cost between $500 - $600 average when cops can get a Glock sold to their agency for about $150 a piece.

Kinda hard to beat that kinda pricing with any other gun out there that is that good. If Glocks were sold that much on the civilian market I don't think they would be that popular just because of the price alone. Look at Rugers P series, they can be had for about $300 average and they are hardly popular. Just my theroy anyway.

Tomcat47
June 5, 2011, 11:35 PM
Well I can see your point.....

But i will add this thought....Probably because all equipment for agencies on a state and government level are assuredly put out for bid!...and lowest bidder wins the contract....

IE: Ford = Crown Victoria - Probably toughest Cop Car Platform!
Glock = (Insert model) - Probably one of most indestructable/dependable Duty Firearms built!

Not that there are not others that fit the bill, and are dependable....Just Glock won the contracts! And it all comes down to Glock is willing to produce their polymer frame pistol much cheaper than say a Beretta or Sig or (enter other brand)

Especially considering quantity of firearms.

Jeb21
June 5, 2011, 11:53 PM
Glocks work well, are light weight, have good ergonomics, low recoil, and resist the elements.

MrsSmith
June 6, 2011, 12:00 AM
Glock is pure utilitarian. So is a Crown Vic.

You called that one right tiffa.

marksman13
June 6, 2011, 12:36 AM
Could be that Glocks perform well, are light weight, have simple controls, low maintenance, low prices and have done a great job of marketing their firearms....

Na... That couldn't be it.

Of course price plays a role in any large contract, but agencies don't often buy firearms that aren't proven platforms. Glocks have proven they work. The same could be said for Crown Vics. My local PD recently bought a few Dodge Chargers. The officers hate them. Not saying a Charger is a BMW, but the bottom line is that there is a mind-set in law enforcement and military agencies that says, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I tend to agree.

I've owned a myriad of pistols from a Ruger P94 to a Kimber TLE/RL II. All my pistols are now Glocks. They work for me. They may not for you.

marksman13
June 6, 2011, 12:39 AM
And police don't run BMWs because they can not afford them, and I doubt very seriously they would "get the job done" any faster than a Crown Vic. Given the option I would much rather attempt a pit maneuver with a Crown Vic.

Gryffydd
June 6, 2011, 01:06 AM
Glocks work well, are light weight, have good ergonomics,
:what:

Yes police agencies go with the companies that give them the best deals. But that's not the only reason they go with Glocks by any means. I'm pretty sure ergonomics aren't one of them...

mr.trooper
June 6, 2011, 01:38 AM
I didn't see any bridges. :confused:

Guess I need my eyes checked.

9mmepiphany
June 6, 2011, 02:46 AM
I once attended a class on how to respond to a terrorist attack where they used bio, chem and nuke contaminants . Their recommendation was that first responders be equipped with Glocks...because it would be a smaller hit on the equipment budget when we threw them away during decontamination.

I believe unit cost plays a large part in LE departmental gun selection...assuming they can pass testing. I was very surprised when the Glock 17 fared so poorly in the US Military XM-9 trials

priler
June 6, 2011, 03:07 AM
seems like sometimes events that occur get lost in time and memory.

i was still a teenager when it was happening,all across americas there was this talk on the news about some pistol called glock that would pass airport security because it was made of plastic.

all the antis were really pushing this issue and being the ignorant soals that they are,didn't really notice or care that they were giving this new pistol one of the biggest free publicity ever given any manufacturer. it was like free advertisement on billboards all across the country.


now,i'm not saying that this is the main/only reason for it's popularity to this day,the fact that it happened to come along at this particular time and touted as some form of new spaced-aged polymer gun,which it was at the time,and that it's had enough time to cement itself in the mind of the public before any of the other manufacturers even had time to blink,certainly played it's part too,..but the anti campain played it's part to a certain extent.i'm telling you,this was huge back then.


the fact that here was a light weight pistol that also happen to be very reliable and that according to glock would solve any officer related troubles because of it's unique,simple to operate and safe trigger system,also caught everyones attention.further,glocks price point to agencies could not be beat and that's all she wrote.

fact is,it was a series of events that led to glock firmly establishing itself and that all the other manufacturers would have to deal with.

never mind that glocks' original intent was to produce a sidearms for the austrian army in the snow,we've had polymer pistols ever since but they were bound to come regardless,..glock just dramatically sped the process.

funny thing is,when i got to hold one in my hands for the first time,i was not sold.in fact,to this day i tend to draw a line between glocks,including any others who try to imitate either their triggers or grip angles,and others.the blame for that fully falls on a walther p88 i had at that time and i'm thankful for that because across that line opposite the glocks stands many other wonderful makes,many of which include polymer.

i remember so many 1911 fans really crying foul,almost all of which eventually would get glocks.now that's funny too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmHNfWRw-qg

JohnBiltz
June 6, 2011, 05:13 AM
My memory was the Glock was not under consideration in XM9 trials because it did not meet the double action requirement.

Has anyone considered the possibility that near 70% of the police market is owned by Glock because they are good inexpensive handguns? Strange thought people bought them because they worked and were not price gouging the tax payers. For this they are vilified. If only the rest of government procurement worked so well.

JustinJ
June 6, 2011, 10:45 AM
"...cops can get a Glock sold to their agency for about $150 a piece."

Sorry but i have real trouble believing that. Glock has LE pricing for individual cops starting at around $400. So I have trouble believing an agency can get it down to $150 no matter how many they buy. If you can reference where this has happened please do so.

REAPER4206969
June 6, 2011, 10:57 AM
Is that why agencies and units such as the FBI/FBI HRT/CAG/Etc. that can have any handgun available, or have custom ones built, still choose Glock?

Carl N. Brown
June 6, 2011, 11:12 AM
You keep a large scale contract by being both good and affordable.

Plus, the story goes Gaston Glock designed the GLOCK (officially the brandname is all caps) as a rank newbie to make guns for rank newbies (i.e., raw recruits who won't always have the luxury of incessant practice).

REAPER4206969
June 6, 2011, 11:15 AM
I have come to the conclusion that they sell them "CHEAP". Cause if they didnt Kahr or Sig or Colt would have a better contract than they do....

Kahr and Colt do not make a modern, service class pistol and SIG's/Beretta's/Etc. are not much more expensive than Glock's when bought in such large numbers.

when cops can get a Glock sold to their agency for about $150 a piece.

Wrong.

http://lsandwick.com/images/glockGen4.jpg

Look at Rugers P series, they can be had for about $300 average and they are hardly popular.

Offtopic:The P95 is consistently in the top ten handguns sold every year.

I'm pretty sure ergonomics aren't one of them...

More thought was put into the Glock's ergonomics than most pistols that are designed to "feel good in the hand."

I was very surprised when the Glock 17 fared so poorly in the US Military XM-9 trials

The Glock was never submitted into the XM9 trials. It wasn't even imported until 1986.

Plus, the story goes Gaston Glock designed the GLOCK (officially the brandname is all caps) as a rank newbie to make guns for rank newbies

Gaston compiled a team of Europe's best Military, Police and private competition shooters to help design the "user interface" of the Glock.

KenW.
June 6, 2011, 11:22 AM
There are several reasons why Glock has such a large share of the law enforcement market:

- dependable, they run dirty pretty well
- easy to train non-gun people to use effectively
- simple for the agency armorer to maintain, parts are plentiful
- nearly indestructable (cop-proof)

and last but not least; DRUM ROLL PLEASE...

-Always the lowest bidder

My agency is switching to them. But we are still permitted alternates. I'm staying with my XDs.

Mudinyeri
June 6, 2011, 11:34 AM
Having owned a BMW, BMW's are expensive to repair. While they rarely experience catastrophic failures, it seems that lots of little things do go wrong with BMW's. Regular servicing for BMW's is also expensive. IIRC, a Level 1 service (basically an oil change) was about $400. When I got a $1400 estimate for a Level 3 service, I traded my BMW on a Jeep - something I could work on myself without special tools or more-expensive-than-average parts.

See any correlaries, OP?

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 11:40 AM
Glocks are popular with many of us because of a few simple facts



They are accurate.
They are reliable.
If by chance something does break, must parts (except for the slide, barrel and firing pin) cost an earth shattering $15.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be glock armorer. Most people with basic mechanical skills can completely disassemble it to a pile of parts in just a few minutes without an armorers course...and assemble a working gun from said pile of parts.
They are inexpensive.
Remarkable tough finish. I can carry mine without the need for constant field stripping and wipe downs when it is hot and humid. It gets really humid here and I'll sweat through, around, or into whatever type of holster I could possible carry when I'm working outside.


As far as the cop car comparo, well I've owned an BMW M3. It was my first and last BMW. Yes, they are wonderful cars that do many things way better than most (stock). Drive one hard or even better, drive it hard on a track and you'll find out just how expensive those bmw replacement parts are. Even if you can do any type of repair, service yourself...that replacement part price is a real deal breaker. Police cars see even worse abuse. They get driven hard, they chase other cars over bad pavement and curbs and other such things that beat the suspension and drive-train mercilessly. I'm glad my police department doesn't use my tax money to pay for cars like that which serve no purpose. Around towns and cities, the radio is a far better tool than a fast car. The only agencies that need fast cars are the ones who have vast, open expanses of straight road with few patrol cars to intercept.

mgmorden
June 6, 2011, 11:43 AM
REAPER: Due note that the price sheet you're using is blatantly marked "Individual Officer Price Sheet". Buying one (or two - which is the maximum number that can be bought with that sheet) at a time and buying an entire fleet of of them to outfit the whole department are going to be different price schemes. Will it get down to $150? I'm not sure personally, though I have heard that the production cost to GLOCK for each one is in the neighborhood of $75 so it's not unthinkable, but either way, a bulk purchase will be less than buying a handful.

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 11:50 AM
a bulk purchase will be less than buying a handful

Not always. Times are tough and companies often view "bulk" differently. A department may buy 1,000 of them and that is considered bulk to the department. To the supplier, it may not be enough to drive the cost down from the manufacturer. I couldn't see anyone getting them under $200 unless they were outfitting an entire military division.

MachIVshooter
June 6, 2011, 12:01 PM
The individual officer price sheet is just that. When an entire department buys, the price goes down. Last time I talked to one of our local PD captains, they were paying $340 for basic 22's. And there are trade in programs as well.

Glock makes good handguns.........and even better marketing strategies.

That said, many agencies have been switching to the M&P. S&W had a good share of LE with the 3rd gens, but even at whole department pricing, they were far more expensive than the Glock. The M&P, though, is at a more competetive price point, and doing pretty well cutting into that market, especially because, by and large, it is better liked by the officers for it's ergonomics. Colorado State Patrol went the M&P route about 3 years ago.

While the Glock and the Crown Vic have epitomized LE equipment for some time, it has been changing. Chargers, Impalas, Tahoes, Durangos and others have become frequent sights, as have other duty pistols. My county runs a lot of Explorers, the state patrol cruisers out here are mostly Chargers, and the neighboring county uses more Chargers and Tahoes than Crown Vic's. There is also only one small police department that issues Glocks (the one I mentioned before). The counties and the other PD's don't issue, and very few of the officers are carrying Glocks.

REAPER4206969
June 6, 2011, 12:13 PM
The individual officer price sheet is just that. When an entire department buys, the price goes down.

Yes, and I addressed that with my first quote. However, he posted that a cop can get one through their agency for $150 and I posted what the cop would actually have to pay to get one.

moonpie
June 6, 2011, 12:18 PM
glocks have more than proven themselves in design, innovation, and real time field performance. they are as dependable and near indestructible as our present technology can make them. several competing models owe their success to shared design features.while some of the larger agencies may mandate their use several smaller PDs require officers to supply their own sidearms, many choose glocks. i have nothing but the highest admiration for a pistol that i won't buy, barter for or accept as a gift unless i could trade it off at the earliest opportunity

Pops 1
June 6, 2011, 01:52 PM
As for as the P95 goes, I help a friend at our local gun show that was there selling guns. This is not a big gun show and I sold four P95's in one day.

Greg528iT
June 6, 2011, 02:01 PM
Actually if you look in England and Europe, there are a LOT of BMW police cars. In America you see a lot of Crown Vics as police cars because GM stopped producing the Caprice Classic / Impala full sized auto. You do see a LOT of Tahoe/ Yukon police rigs. If you price out a well equiped Tahoe.. and I mean well equiped, to the luxery line of a BMW interior, the Tahoe will cost near that of a BMW. I don't know what a stripped down police version BMW costs, as they don't sell them here. ala, hard plastic rear seat, non leather front, minimal interior

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 02:04 PM
Actually if you look in England and Europe, there are a LOT of BMW police cars.

They also pay less for the car and much less for maintenance than we do since they do not import the parts.

9mmepiphany
June 6, 2011, 02:12 PM
My memory was the Glock was not under consideration in XM9 trials because it did not meet the double action requirement.
I'm pretty sure that the BATF has classified the Glock Safe-Action as DAO...it is what qualified them for a lot of their LE contracts

The Glock was never submitted into the XM9 trials. It wasn't even imported until 1986.
This was my error, they were invited and declined to participate. According to:

Kasler, Peter Alan: Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns, page 2. Paladin Press, 1992...via Wiki
In late 1983, the United States Department of Defense inquired about the Glock pistol and received four samples of the Glock 17 for unofficial evaluation. Glock was then invited to participate in the XM9 Personal Defense Pistol Trials, but declined because the DOD specifications would require extensive retooling of production equipment and providing 35 test samples in an unrealistic time frame.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 6, 2011, 03:04 PM
What I meant was cops get them through their agency in other words issued by the department. My info came direct from a Cop I know when they switched from the 4506 to the Glock 21. It could have been that low because they traded the 4506s for the Glocks.

KodiakBeer
June 6, 2011, 03:43 PM
Few cops are shooters. Most of them never fire a gun beyond their required qualification shoots and Glock is marketed to that lowest common denominator shooter. The manual of arms is simple - draw, pull trigger... There's no "complicated" things like safeties or the difference between DA and SA to learn, so you save a lot in money in training.

Glock marked a return to the simple recognition that the average cop isn't a shooter. Back in the day, cops were issued DA revolvers for the same reasons - simplicity, and the simple recognition that most cops aren't shooters. Then, in the seventies they began flirting with various DA/SA "wonder nines" and ran into all kinds of problems; accidental shootings, cops freezing up under stress and not remembering to flick off the safety, etc. Along came Glock with the high capacity of the wonder nine, and the simplicity of the DA revolver. It was the solution.

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 03:57 PM
Glock is marketed to that lowest common denominator shooter.

I think it is designed to be simple to operate. Considering some world champion competitors shoot glocks, I don't think all of us are "the lowest common denominator."

All of a sudden I feel like the lowest form of shooter out there when you word it like that. :neener:

cwp3420
June 6, 2011, 04:02 PM
seems like sometimes events that occur get lost in time and memory.

i was still a teenager when it was happening,all across americas there was this talk on the news about some pistol called glock that would pass airport security because it was made of plastic.

all the antis were really pushing this issue and being the ignorant soals that they are,didn't really notice or care that they were giving this new pistol one of the biggest free publicity ever given any manufacturer. it was like free advertisement on billboards all across the country.


now,i'm not saying that this is the main/only reason for it's popularity to this day,the fact that it happened to come along at this particular time and touted as some form of new spaced-aged polymer gun,which it was at the time,and that it's had enough time to cement itself in the mind of the public before any of the other manufacturers even had time to blink,certainly played it's part too,..but the anti campain played it's part to a certain extent.i'm telling you,this was huge back then.


the fact that here was a light weight pistol that also happen to be very reliable and that according to glock would solve any officer related troubles because of it's unique,simple to operate and safe trigger system,also caught everyones attention.further,glocks price point to agencies could not be beat and that's all she wrote.

fact is,it was a series of events that led to glock firmly establishing itself and that all the other manufacturers would have to deal with.

never mind that glocks' original intent was to produce a sidearms for the austrian army in the snow,we've had polymer pistols ever since but they were bound to come regardless,..glock just dramatically sped the process.

funny thing is,when i got to hold one in my hands for the first time,i was not sold.in fact,to this day i tend to draw a line between glocks,including any others who try to imitate either their triggers or grip angles,and others.the blame for that fully falls on a walther p88 i had at that time and i'm thankful for that because across that line opposite the glocks stands many other wonderful makes,many of which include polymer.

i remember so many 1911 fans really crying foul,almost all of which eventually would get glocks.now that's funny too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmHNfWRw-qg
While most people believe Glock invented the first polymer pistol, it was in fact HK. The first polymer pistol on the market was the HK VP70, which was introduced approximately 12 years before the Glock. No arguments here about which is best, just correcting misinformation.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 6, 2011, 04:35 PM
Only thing about the VP70 is that it never caught on. I can see why aswell.

KodiakBeer
June 6, 2011, 04:48 PM
I think it is designed to be simple to operate.

Yeah, in the same way that a DA revolver is simple to operate. Read one of these "My G/F wants a gun" threads and note all the "Buy her a .38" replies. Yet, being simple for a novice doesn't stop famous shooters like McGivern or Miculek from doing amazing things with such revolvers.

Glock is not my cup of tea, but they do fit a wide range of needs. For police agencies they allow them to take novice shooters to at least minimal proficiency without a lot of time devoted to training. At the same time, good shooters can run a Glock very well indeed.

Red Cent
June 6, 2011, 04:48 PM
But would you holster a loaded Glock?:evil:

GRIZ22
June 6, 2011, 04:48 PM
Now.... Why dont they have BMWS? They are fast and will obviously get the job done way quicker.


But you need to go to the dealer to read the OBD when you get a check engine light (as with other high end cars). You can get a code reader for the Crown Vic anywhere.

HOOfan_1
June 6, 2011, 04:52 PM
Now, why did I mention the cops owning them? I would have to start by saying they sure as heck dont drive BMWS......



I believe BMW motorcycles are one of the top motorcycles used by police...

Most of the police agencies in my area use SIG p229s....hardly cheap

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 05:11 PM
But you need to go to the dealer to read the OBD when you get a check engine light (as with other high end cars). You can get a code reader for the Crown Vic anywhere.

I've worked with inventory systems for agencies. One in particular implemented a new system (my reason for being there) and switched to a new vehicle all at once. It was the result of new managers not doing ROI research or any other type of in-depth fiscal study.

The result? A complete re-tooling of the shop (specialty tools and diagnostic stuff), a complete restocking of parts, completely retraining technicians that needed it and TONS of money spent for no real gain other than switching brands. Overall, it was one of the biggest disasters from the top down that I ever witnessed...all because their new chief wanted a different brand.

Glock is not my cup of tea, but they do fit a wide range of needs. For police agencies they allow them to take novice shooters to at least minimal proficiency without a lot of time devoted to training. At the same time, good shooters can run a Glock very well indeed.

I've often answered questions for friends and coworkers about new firearm purchases. I usually tell them that a glock is fine if you are starting fresh, but if you aren't then you may have a learning curve. When I first bought one, I was horrible with it. I changed a few things, practiced more often and found out it was only as good as I ran it...much like anything else (except BHP's, everyone seems to be a marksman when they pick one up!).

I view them as "lowest common denominator"-proof as opposed to being "lowest common denominator"-oriented. :)

Read one of these "My G/F wants a gun" threads and note all the "Buy her a .38" replies.Yeah...for some reason every female needs a 38 revolver if you listen to the general consensus. If a guy asks the same question, they get the "shoot them all and see which you like" response. Odd.

Owen
June 6, 2011, 05:19 PM
government agency price has been around $350 in my experience.

priler
June 6, 2011, 05:24 PM
wow,i didn't think it was necessary to mention the h&k VP70.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axtfB7QPTiw

amd6547
June 6, 2011, 05:40 PM
I'm just rying to understand how thw thread title "don't hurt me too much" has anything to do with the topic...

ForumSurfer
June 6, 2011, 05:55 PM
I'm just rying to understand how thw thread title "don't hurt me too much" has anything to do with the topic...

Any glock or 1911 related topics usually get you replies with a sometimes overzealous fervor....much like 9mm and 45 threads.

Magoo
June 6, 2011, 06:41 PM
BMW built a plant here in SC and as part of their wooing of the state gave the highway patrol a bunch of 5 series. I'd be willing to bet BMW threw in service as well. There are at least some cops out there pimping around in bimmers. Lots of BMW bikes in the SCHWP patrol also, but I don't know if those were "freebies".

Zerodefect
June 6, 2011, 09:43 PM
Those Crown Vics and Dodge Chargers ain't cheap at all.

-The Crown Vic and Dodge are fairly robust as far as cars go.
-Parts and repairs are easy to get.
-European cars chases are far less "energetic" than American chases. Plenty of highway patrol stations literally have a pile of a dozen+ wrecked cruisers parked in the back of the lot. If BMW's were cheaper and easier to replace............

-Deos BMW offer a heavy duty option pack? American cruisers have a few options that make a considerable difference.

-European's are better drivers. Can't argue that at all. It's a fairly safe bet that an officer from Finland could out drive allmost any officer from Ohio. When was the last time you saw a cruiser with a stick and clutch?

I bet I can find 2 dozen youtube vids for American cruisers sliding into a ditch on a wet/snowy road for every European vids.

And Europe has Sabine Schmitz.:p
http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss290/zerodefect2533/zzzstartseite_01.jpg

Really odd when you think about how much potential the US has for some real roads and higher speed limits.

-Police depts. don't usually assign a car to an officer. Many officers hop into whatever car is available (at least at many of the depts I've visited this year).

This breeds a lack of care in the driving of said vehicle. If you know your stuck with a car for 3 years, you take care of it. Even in my own Fleet, it's easy to see. Assigned rides last about 150-250k miles, and special purpose vehicles that everyone shares generally are toast in 75k.

When cars get turned in, scrapped, sold so frequently in fleets; spending an extra $10,000 to go from Charger to a BMW isn't worth it. Many dept's go through cars very quickly.

-BMW makes some great motorcycles for police. Too bad they're far from what I'd call reliable. I'd love a GS800. But a KTM Adventure 990 is a far better machine.





So the Glock-Car-BMW analogy is a fail. Glock still rules IDPA. It's the only pistol substantially different than a 1911 that can actually keep up with a 1911.

No need to quantify cheap, or whatever, beyond the fact that the target and the stopwatch can't lie to us. Glocks rule.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 6, 2011, 09:55 PM
There are others that do just as good as a Glock, Glocks are just popular.

Chris Rhines
June 6, 2011, 09:56 PM
Police departments need a sidearm that is reliable, durable, easy to shoot, easy to maintain, inexpensive, and warrantied. Glock can provide all that better than any other firearms manufacturer.

High-volume and competitive shooters have similar requirements, which is why Glocks are popular in those circles as well.

-C

HK Jake
June 6, 2011, 09:59 PM
I'm sorry, but this entire thread is hilarious. :D

Please, by all means, continue! :evil:

Remo223
June 6, 2011, 10:13 PM
I'm sorry, but this entire thread is hilarious. :D

Please, by all means, continue! :evil:
I'm enjoying it too.

PS porche is way better than BMW

Zerodefect
June 6, 2011, 10:20 PM
I'm enjoying it too.

PS porche is way better than BMW

Volkswagon beetle turbo.

KodiakBeer
June 7, 2011, 05:44 AM
The Glock is the Toyota Corolla of guns. It's not pretty or fast, and it doesn't corner well.... but, it will always start and get you there.

If you want the BMW of guns, get a Hi Power.

REAPER4206969
June 7, 2011, 06:11 AM
That's a terrible analogy. The Glock is the King of its class in the various gun games. That would make it the firearm equivalent of a race car.

HK Jake
June 7, 2011, 06:32 AM
That's a terrible analogy. The Glock is the King of its class in the various gun games. That would make it the firearm equivalent of a race car.
Nah, his analogy is spot on. (Calling a Hi Point a BMW is very questionable, however).

The "race car" of firearms would have to be a high powered rifle.

REAPER4206969
June 7, 2011, 06:54 AM
That is absurd.

Chris Rhines
June 7, 2011, 08:02 AM
The Glock is the King of its class in the various gun games. That would make it the firearm equivalent of a race car. Eh, not really.

The Glock is king in USPSA Production and IDPA SSP.

The other USPSA and IDPA divisions, NRA Conventional Pistol, Steel Challenge, Pinshooting, etc. are still ruled by assorted 1911A1 and STI/SVI variants.

To my mind, these guns are the real race cars. Expensive, high maintenance, not much use as a daily driver. The Glock is more like a Honda Civic Si that's doing autocross on the weekends...

-C

JohnBiltz
June 7, 2011, 08:03 AM
This was 25 years ago but the specification as I recall it was true double action you pull the trigger and a strike happens pull it again and a second strike happens. I also think the Army could care less what the BATF says. It would be interesting what would have happened if Glock would have had more time. My understanding is that Glock passed the evaluation along with Sig and Beretta but of course was not eligible for the contract. They also have competed with Sig and Beretta in several European contracts and whipped them. Austria in 82, several times since then and recently the Swiss bought them also the fed just tested for law enforcement and Glock and S&W won that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBiltz
My memory was the Glock was not under consideration in XM9 trials because it did not meet the double action requirement.
I'm pretty sure that the BATF has classified the Glock Safe-Action as DAO...it is what qualified them for a lot of their LE contracts

Quote:
Originally Posted by REAPER4206969
The Glock was never submitted into the XM9 trials. It wasn't even imported until 1986.
This was my error, they were invited and declined to participate. According to:

Kasler, Peter Alan: Glock: The New Wave in Combat Handguns, page 2. Paladin Press, 1992...via Wiki
Quote:
In late 1983, the United States Department of Defense inquired about the Glock pistol and received four samples of the Glock 17 for unofficial evaluation. Glock was then invited to participate in the XM9 Personal Defense Pistol Trials, but declined because the DOD specifications would require extensive retooling of production equipment and providing 35 test samples in an unrealistic time frame.

MachIVshooter
June 7, 2011, 12:39 PM
But you need to go to the dealer to read the OBD when you get a check engine light (as with other high end cars). You can get a code reader for the Crown Vic anywhere.

OT, but no you don't. Driveability stuff can be done with almost any generic, and scanners like Launch, Modis and Auto Ingenuity can do most of the body and accessory functions.

The British cars are the most unfriendly WRT diagnostics, followed by the Swedish stuff.

Smaug
June 7, 2011, 02:20 PM
Cost is one thing, but if it were just cost, cops wouldn't have Glocks.

They're also reliable, pretty easy to shoot with reasonable accuracy, and light weight.

Ergonomics is not one of their strong points; it never has been. They're reasonably comfortable to hold and easy enough to control, but let's not pretend they're in the same league as, for instance, a Beretta 92, Hi-Power, or CZ 75.

They don't have particularly low recoil, due to their light weight. But due to the low bore axis, the recoil tends not to swivel the barrel up, and it feels to some like low recoil because of it.

Glocks are just an all-around good package, esp. at $150 ea. :cool:

Jim K
June 7, 2011, 02:41 PM
1. I don't especially like Glocks, but they are good, reliable pistols, and for police, reliability is everything. The range guys don't much care about jams and misfires once in a while, but police do (and licensed gun carriers should).

2. Sometimes those police cars just look cheap, but the engines and suspension systems are a different story. Few city PDs go for the full cop package because they don't need it, but many state police do, and those cars will compete with the hot eurocars any day.

Jim

ET
June 7, 2011, 04:04 PM
My brother-in-law was a LEO in Alaska some years back when his dept. was transitioning to semis from revolvers. They brought in samples of each of the models that they were interested in. They conducted torture tests on all of the guns. He said that the Glock samples were the only guns that didn't consistently jamb during the tests. He said the tests were over-whelmingly in Glocks favor. Buying anything else just wasn't even a question. Price might be a driving factor, but performance has to be a major part of the equation for police depts that use these guns every day to protect themselves and their citizen's lives. It doesn't matter how cheap a gun is, if it doesn't perform under pressure, then it isn't going to be carried. If price was the main/only deciding factor then Hi-Points would be carried by every dept. in this country, now wouldn't they?:uhoh:

KodiakBeer
June 7, 2011, 05:05 PM
It depends on what tests you do. Glocks will consistently jam when limp-wristed, while most other pistols won't. That may not seem important until you find yourself with a bullet through one of your arms, or shooting around an obstacle while somebody shoots at you.

I don't know of any "unreliable" factory stock guns. If a gun is kept clean and the springs are changed occasionally, they seem to run forever.

Ledgehammer
June 7, 2011, 05:22 PM
Now.... Why dont they have BMWS? They are fast and will obviously get the job done way quicker.

Because BMW's are "luxury" cars. They look pretty and have tons of extra options that just aren't necessary for police work. The cars that most Dept's drive now Haul ass and are durable. Glocks are reliable and durable -that's what is needed for police work.

I've seen state troopers driving new camaros and dodge chargers -two pretty bad ass vehicles right there.

ForumSurfer
June 7, 2011, 05:39 PM
Ergonomics is not one of their strong points

I disagree. Once I spent more time with a glock, I found it to be quite comfortable. Prior to that, I thought they were awful feeling and couldn't shoot one worth a patooty...but I had never ran more than 50 to 100 rounds at a time through one. To me, nothing is more comfortable in my hand than a glock 19 or a 1911.

I don't know of any "unreliable" factory stock guns. If a gun is kept clean and the springs are changed occasionally, they seem to run forever.

I've yet to own any unreliable sidearms, so I agree.

It depends on what tests you do. Glocks will consistently jam when limp-wristed, while most other pistols won't. That may not seem important until you find yourself with a bullet through one of your arms, or shooting around an obstacle while somebody shoots at you.

That's true, but when I run drills and actually shoot from cover in odd positions (two handed or one handed with either hand), I don't limp wrist. But I also don't shoot myself in the hand or saw off a finger beforehand...so I'll give you that one. :)

hey're reasonably comfortable to hold and easy enough to control, but let's not pretend they're in the same league as, for instance, a Beretta 92, Hi-Power, or CZ 75.

A beretta 92? That's why I say ergonomics are completely dependent on the shooter's preference. I felt my 92 was the most awful feeling handgun in the world. I like it and I loved shooting it, but it felt rather 2x4ish to me. I'll agree with you on the CZ. It is the next "must have" on my hand gun list. I rented one and loved it. At the moment though, I'm monetarily challenged and I'm torn between other things and the CZ...like a marlin 336 in 30-30, matching 22 lever actions for my boys or that cz-75 I so desire.

JustinJ
June 7, 2011, 07:07 PM
Glocks are inexpensive because they were reverse engineed from alien technology so design costs were minimal. The different gens are just the "cracking" of different aspects of the martian weapon. Picture the movie Mars Attacks with Glocks instead of ray guns.

marksman13
June 7, 2011, 08:17 PM
A Beretta 92?! Sorry. Ergonomics are too subjective to reach a definitive conclusion on which brand has the best. I think my Glock 17 feels much better than the 92 I owned. I will, however, agree that my CZ 75 feels better than my G17. It's also much heavier and harder to find holsters for.

Mad Magyar
June 8, 2011, 07:00 AM
have good ergonomics
:D :D You haven't handled many pistols...

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 8, 2011, 01:58 PM
I thought this was a gun forum? :confused:

REAPER4206969
June 8, 2011, 02:31 PM
Someone got disappeared...

jdh
June 8, 2011, 03:28 PM
Knowing someone in the SO's procurement department gives you interesting insights at times.

Department price on the 200 glocks was $289 for the gun with 3 mags. However the training/parts/accy package that was required to get that pricing jacked the contract price up a good bit.

Agencies have been buying crap loads of CVPIs since Ford announced they're ending production. The SO got them for $22k each unit. Go find a Ford dealer that would have sold you a CV for that price.

Disclaimer: the above is the information provided in an informal conversation and may be the result of some smoke blowing on the part of the individual concerned, take it for what you paid for it.

mgmorden
June 9, 2011, 11:39 AM
That's a terrible analogy. The Glock is the King of its class in the various gun games. That would make it the firearm equivalent of a race car.

No, because a race car is a terrible choice for daily use. It's not efficient nor comfortable and typically requires heavy maintenance and has a ton of modifications. None of those things match a Glock.

KDS
June 9, 2011, 11:57 AM
Interesting thread. I don't really understand glock bashing. I don't own one, they just don't fit my hand well. But if my life depended on it and the only gun around was a glock, you bet I'd pick it up. And I am sure it would run the way it is supposed to. I have several friends with glocks and I shoot theirs from time to time. Ergonomically its not the gun for me, but I won't be thinking about ergos when the adrenaline is pumping.

lucky-gunner
June 9, 2011, 06:09 PM
I understand the general idea of the OP. To an extent your correct. There are better options that most of us would choose if price was not an object. The part you left out is that the pistol still needs to meet a set of criteria before it could be accepted.

I'm no Glock fan. I sold my last Glock last year, but they are dependable pistols.

Jonah71
June 10, 2011, 11:15 AM
An old saying comes to mind here for me........"If it works, don't fix it."

Heretic
June 10, 2011, 09:13 PM
I've been able to pick up any pistol and hit well. Just have the hands for it I suppose. I have owned , handled and fired hundreds of pistols, but I would not spend money for a GLOCK. The only reason is that long mushy trigger pull. I just hate it. I for one will stick to my 1911's.

RugerMcMarlin
June 10, 2011, 09:32 PM
I'm tired and bored with the bash Glock debate.

I want to see the BMW Police Interceptor Package before I decide.


I think the GLOCK because its all tenifer coated is probably the ONLY one you could dunk and Decontaminate w/o consequences.

9mmepiphany
June 11, 2011, 12:36 AM
I think the GLOCK because its all tenifer coated is probably the ONLY one you could dunk and Decontaminate w/o consequences.
Refer to Post #10

RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 04:05 AM
Refer to post #10. Ahh.....I was. Yup.... my statement means I disagree. And I went back and read it a couple times.
The cost of discarded weapons, should be a moot point in regards to weapons that don't NEED to be discarded. It does not cost more to decontaminate a pistol than build it.

I can't tell if thats your position too, or you disagree. Or your just relaying info.

toivo
June 11, 2011, 06:07 AM
PS porche is way better than BMW

I don't know about now, but when I was in Holland in the 1980's I saw highway patrol cops driving Porsches. Nice work if you can get it...

It's a fairly safe bet that an officer from Finland could out drive allmost any officer from Ohio.

Have you been to Finland? Once you get away from the cities, it gets pretty "Dukes of Hazard." Only about half of the "local roads" are paved. The local boys really tear it up on these roads, and the cops are right behind: all rally, all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Olvasj%C3%A4rvi_local_road.JPG

Back to the OP: Out of eight autoloading pistols, my Glock 26 is the only one that has never had a malfunction of any kind. It's not the classiest or most fun to shoot of the bunch, but it is certainly the most reliable, not to mention durable.

ET
June 11, 2011, 09:14 AM
Nah, his analogy is spot on. (Calling a Hi Point a BMW is very questionable, however).

The "race car" of firearms would have to be a high powered rifle.

I own a Hi-Point. My brother gave it to me 12 years ago. It is not a BMW, more like a Yugo if you ask me.

AZ Hawkeye
June 11, 2011, 09:32 AM
I honestly can't understand why people bash Glocks. Then again, I don't understand why people bash a lot of things without reason! :D

With the exception of the Beretta M9, they are the most reliable, proven autoloading handguns in existence.

How can you bash that statement? :confused:

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 11, 2011, 11:08 AM
I don't know about you but my Springfield XD hasn't jammed yet so I don't really understand the whole reliability thing. Glocks fit my like a 2x4 and there are much more handguns out there that look better for the same price and get the job done just as good. Why limit yourself to ugly guns?

RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 11:18 AM
I used to hate Glocks for no reason too. One of my favorites is the same one I spit on in 1986, and said I'd never own one. Piece of junk would fall apart in a month. So for 25 years I've been waiting on it to jam or break or not be as accurate, to fail in anyway. It's really discouraging.

earlthegoat2
June 11, 2011, 11:54 AM
when cops can get a Glock sold to their agency for about $150 a piece.

Wrong.


Doesnt mean it has not happened in the past.

There are rumors abound about how Glock let police agencies have them for only a few dollars above cost back in the early days just so they could get their name out there.

Yes I did say rumors. And yes, I know what rumor means. I also know where rumors come from.

basicblur
June 11, 2011, 12:21 PM
I don't really understand glock bashing.
I usually tell new shooters Glocks are both:
A. One of the best guns ever made
AND
B. One of the most overrated guns ever made

I know quite a few folks back when they were introduced that loved to make fun of 'em due to their plastic construction-some of those same folks now own 'em and make fun of anyone that assign anything less than deity status to old Gaston.
You know who you are... :rolleyes:
I guess maybe this article describes a lot of those folks-Fanboyism and Brand Loyalty (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/)
Never owned one myself-while I recognize they're one of the best guns out there, I always seemed to find something that fit me or I liked more (XDs being the closest equivalent I own).

AFA BMWs...always thought they were nice cars, but I've known way too many one-time owners that complained they were great until things starting (prematurely) breaking, at which time the joy of ownership starting dying the death of 1000 (expensive) cuts.
I remember reading a long term BMW test in Car & Driver-as part of the test they always have the dealers perform OEM recommended maintenance in order to determine cost of ownership. They couldn't believe it when they had a brake job done (at much lower mileage than I'd want to pay for one) and found the cost to be over $2,000! BMW told 'em it was recommended that all rotors be replaced with the pads. Believing the dealer was puttin' one over on 'em, they checked with BMW and sho nuff were told the rotors were designed to wear out with the pads-they were designed that way for 'optimum braking performance'.
Wonder if those police BMWs are the same?

In a former life I was an industrial electrical troubleshooter, and I'll take good old American electrical equipment over 'bout any of the foreign stuff I had the bad fortune to work on. 'Bout all the foreign stuff was:
1. Overdesigned
2. Not operator/maintenance friendly
3. Inferior materials (plastics often crumbled due to age)
4. Not as versatile
5. Flimsy construction (industrial grade that wouldn't pass for consumer grade)
I've often wondered how much of the above also applied to some foreign makers' cars? From owner reports, it sounds like a lot of what I saw in industrial equipment probably does.

balance 740
June 11, 2011, 05:52 PM
I don't see any of this as "bashing". People seem to be speaking their opinions of Glock pistols, which is what people do on topics about Glock pistols. Is just speaking a negative opinion about something, "bashing"?

As far as the original topic, I think it could be answered with "because they work and they are cheap", which from what I've seen, is the general consensus of what government agencies are looking for in products. The price to performance ratio of Glock pistols is good now, and was probably great when they first came out.

I think comparing guns to cars is difficult, if not impossible, because the cars with the highest performance, will generally be the most unreliable, and the cars that are the most reliable, will generally be cars that were not designed to "perform". The area most people consider the most important in a defensive firearm is usually in reliablility, and after that, comes how well it performs in your hands. Usually you do not get both reliability and high-performance in one car, as opposed to modern pistol designs where on each pistol, reliability is practically a given, and performance is mostly dependent on the shooter.

Crown Vics are more reliable than BMWs with compareable size and power, but everything else goes to the Bimmer in my opinion, which is probably why people still buy them even though they cost more. They use higher quality materials, and my 14 year old BMW 740 has more features and options than almost all of the new cars coming out next year, and it will probably outperform most of those new cars as well. BMWs break down more often than American cars, but I'd imagine that if an American car was to come out that had the same list of options, with the same amount of performance, it would probably break down more often than BMWs since American car manufacturers generally use cheap materials/parts, and their cars generally age more quickly than Japanese/German cars.

I can take a "35mph" turn on an offramp with my BMW at 70mph and not hear the tires chirp, in a 4500lb car. Try that with ANY American car that has as much space and luxury, or weighs as much, and goodbye. I think they would perform better than what police are driving now, but I think the price to performance ratio of them will always put them out of the running for a government agency who is using them for what police are using them for. The Crown Vic is probably considered "good enough".

But you won't ever see me going to BMW forums looking for posts where people report problems, and say something along the lines of "you should have bought a Crown Vic". I'd probably get laughed at. :D

Homerboy
June 11, 2011, 06:09 PM
My department traded in their S&W 5946's for new Glock 17's. Cost was $75 EACH, and that included three mags per gun. Glocks work, but if cops were given a CHOICE, you'd see FAR less of them in cop holsters. I sold my 2 Glock duty weapons immediately after I retired. They offer nothing more to me than a traditional hammer fired DA/SA gun. I few ounces in weight savings (even less if you have an alloy frame gun like the S&W 5903) is not worth the drawbacks they offer to me. I also HATE polymer guns.

REAPER4206969
June 11, 2011, 06:42 PM
My department traded in their S&W 5946's for new Glock 17's. Cost was $75 EACH, and that included three mags per gun.

Which Glock then sold for around $375.

This is standard industry procedure.

AZ Hawkeye
June 11, 2011, 06:50 PM
I don't know about you but my Springfield XD hasn't jammed yet so I don't really understand the whole reliability thing. Glocks fit my like a 2x4 and there are much more handguns out there that look better for the same price and get the job done just as good. Why limit yourself to ugly guns?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

For example, I believe the XD is one of the "uglier" guns on the market, even uglier than my Glock, which I also don't find all that pretty, but I fell in love with her personality, not her looks!

In all honesty, I buy the "pretty" guns (HK P30) to take to the range and show off to fellow enthusiasts; I take my Glock when I expect to get in a gunfight.

By the way, what exactly is your signature supposed to mean? Many if not all professions favor simplicity as a key "ingredient" in a product. To want to the opposite of simple (complex) is absurd.

My motto? K.I.S.S. - Keep it simple, stupid!

And like I already said, if you can't shoot it well because of (insert issue here), then don't get one. Sitting on a forum bashing Glocks or any other firearm for no reason other than "it's ugly" or "it's too simple" (seriously, how can something be too simple, and when did that become a bad thing?) is very immature.

But, I support your 1st Amendment right to say whatever you want, mature or immature, so by all means...

AZ Hawkeye
June 11, 2011, 06:57 PM
As for the main topic of "Glocks being cheap..."

Well, I've heard multiple people say that they are cheap and in the next sentence say they own an XD (insert $450 to $600 polymer firearm here). How can you call one gun cheap, and in the same breath say you own an XD when I can actually get NIB XDs cheaper than NIB Glock Gen 4s?

I'm not bashing Springfield as I own a 1911 made by Springfield; I'm just trying to put all this in perspective. I also have no "fanboyish" love for Glock as I own firearms of all different brands including HK's, FN's and Springfield's.

Actually I don't really understand why we are still commenting on this thread... The premise is illogical at best...

REAPER4206969
June 11, 2011, 07:05 PM
Except for a few fullsize frames and export models, all Glock's are made in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria.

All XD's are made in Karlovac, Croatia.

NMGonzo
June 11, 2011, 07:14 PM
Because BMW's are "luxury" cars. They look pretty and have tons of extra options that just aren't necessary for police work. The cars that most Dept's drive now Haul ass and are durable. Glocks are reliable and durable -that's what is needed for police work.

I've seen state troopers driving new camaros and dodge chargers -two pretty bad ass vehicles right there.

Best police bike is a BMW though ... :D

JohnBiltz
June 11, 2011, 07:56 PM
Going back to the original post, I don't think that most Glocks in the US are sold to police. I think there are much more civilian Glocks. Its may to probably be true there are more police owned G22 and G23 models. But there are an awful lot of Glock 9mms out there and those are predominantly not police models.

AZ Hawkeye
June 11, 2011, 08:30 PM
Going back to the original post, I don't think that most Glocks in the US are sold to police. I think there are much more civilian Glocks. Its may to probably be true there are more police owned G22 and G23 models. But there are an awful lot of Glock 9mms out there and those are predominantly not police models.
That's probably true, although if you counted worldwide LEAs, you have Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Croatia, Canada, Denmark, Czech Republic, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States, Venezuela and Yemen all using 9mm Glocks in some capacity. (Just to name a few!)

This one speaks out to me: Germany's GSG-9 uses the Glock 17 which is surprising considering Heckler and Koch is a German company, and an excellent one at that.. (I love HK firearms, by the way, which makes me all the more surprised that the GSG-9 chose a Glock 17 over, say, the P30).

9mmepiphany
June 11, 2011, 09:11 PM
(I love HK firearms, by the way, which makes me all the more surprised that the GSG-9 chose a Glock 17 over, say, the P30).
That surprised me too...almost as much as the SAS changing from the FN P-35 to the Sig 226

fatcat4620
June 11, 2011, 10:02 PM
This is why police and civis like glocks.
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
a glock will shoot more in a row than you can handle in a range session with unlimited ammo with no lube and filled with dirt.

oldfool
June 11, 2011, 11:06 PM
Glocks are the AK-47s of the pistola world, and many people love/hate them (either or both) for very much the same reasons, pretty much just that simple, cheap and reliable

big American cities, unit price is a very big deal on volume buys, departments run by politicians and accountants
wouldn't surprise me a bit to hear of big cities issuing Hi-Points, any day now

Stevie-Ray
June 12, 2011, 07:26 PM
Around here the police cars have always been, or end up coming back to, Crown Vics ever since it's inception. I'm waiting to see what they do now that it's no longer offered. Ford has offered an interceptor version of the Taurus. We'll see. And our cops carry whatever they want as long as they qualify with it. I see a lot of 1911s. Still more Glocks than anything, though.

1858
June 12, 2011, 08:26 PM
That's probably true, although if you counted worldwide LEAs, you have Australia, Austria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Brazil, Croatia, Canada, Denmark, Czech Republic, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hong Kong, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, United Kingdom, United States, Venezuela and Yemen all using 9mm Glocks in some capacity. (Just to name a few!)

And yet CZ states this on their website ...

"CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world."

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-compact/

Is this true and is it simply model specific?

AZ Hawkeye
June 12, 2011, 09:00 PM
And yet CZ states this on their website ...

"CZ 75 B is used by more Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies than any other pistol in the world."

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-compact/

Is this true and is it simply model specific?
I never stated Glock was #1, I just named countries that used 9mm Glocks in some capacity.

You may be right, as I have no idea.

P.S. From now on, I'm going to be extremely clear on everything I say, as people have been putting words in my mouth a lot more often than usual...

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 12, 2011, 09:16 PM
For example, I believe the XD is one of the "uglier" guns on the market, even uglier than my Glock, which I also don't find all that pretty, but I fell in love with her personality, not her looks!

I didn't say it was a BBQ gun, If I could I would own a P220 stainless but I'm limited to private sales being only 18.

I don't hate Glocks and in fact the first gun I recommend to someone thinking about getting a handgun, is a Glock 19. I just personally don't like them and alot of its fanbase believe its the best thing ever and everything else is unreliable. I also didn't call the Glock cheap, only that It can be had for cheap. Glocks are one of the best guns but it isn't the best one for everyone.

a glock will shoot more in a row than you can handle in a range session with unlimited ammo with no lube and filled with dirt.

How do you know that other guns like the 92 can handle those tests just as well? The guy has been abusing his Glock and tried a USP which failed but that doesn't mean the Glock is the most reliable. Remember that both the M9 and the P226 passed the military handgun requirements which I'm sure that the Glock could just aswell if it was actually tested.

1858
June 12, 2011, 09:39 PM
I never stated Glock was #1

I never stated that you did.

Frankly, I don't care what Governments, Militaries, Police and Security agencies use. I just thought it was interesting that CZ made that statement on their website. I have no dog in this race since I don't own a Glock or CZ pistol (Dan Wesson doesn't count) and have no immediate plans to change that.

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