Do manufacturers keep info from test fired rounds?


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Apocalypse-Now
June 6, 2011, 05:35 PM
i mean for law enforcement.

things like the rifling characteristics on the bullet, firing pin marks on the primer, etc.

i didn't used to think so, but i've heard this question raised a few times recently....

:confused:

it doesn't seem feasible that they would record every round fired, but i read on some forum that states like NY require it. it was just a forum post, so who knows if it's true lol

i don't believe it's true, but i'm just curious :)

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Friendly, Don't Fire!
June 6, 2011, 05:40 PM
With computers and the ability to store data, I would be surprised if they did NOT maintain such records about every gun made.

atblis
June 6, 2011, 05:46 PM
I highly doubt it.

CapnMac
June 6, 2011, 05:51 PM
That's actually quite a large bit of inventory to store. Despite tv, bullet-to-bullet comparisons are just that. The two rounds are put in a fixture, and then they are examined under magnification for similarities. Which is often as much art as science; HP rounds, or those upset by striking a hard surface might only have a few millimeters of contact surface showing.

Can't just up and scan the rounds either--not without definitions for what magnification, what resolution of image, what lighting, etc. And, all that before a very reasonable defense objection to comparing physical evidence to an image of "evidence."

Then, there's the firing pin nonsense--the resolution required to define uniqueness is not a common microscopy setting. Even if the manufacturers used electron microscopy on every FP, just what good would that image be, 50, 100, 1000 rounds later?

We have significantly larger fish to fry.

withdrawn34
June 6, 2011, 05:53 PM
Unlikely. The reason they include the round is so that LE can record the info. Otherwise, they'd just ask the manufacturer for the information. But then again, some localities believe in "creating" jobs by doing redundant work.

Who knows.

Bullet and shell casing forensics is a pseudoscience at best, anyway.

Bubbles
June 6, 2011, 06:46 PM
No. The characteristics would be different between different types of rounds anyway. In many cases by the time we tested every potential cartridge on the market for that caliber of firearm, y'all would be buying used guns.

Gary Wells
June 6, 2011, 09:34 PM
Why would a manufacturer do that?
In the event of a crime, Law Enforcement (LE) sets the standards by which everything is judged by. LE would never take the word of a manufacturer in something like that.
LE sets the cutting edge for forensics.
And what you probably read is that NY is in the process of trying to pass a bill that in 2013 would require any firearm manufacturer within the state of NY to identify each and every firing pin with methods of individual traceability, and powder manufacturers to be "tagged" so that they are individually traceable also. Sound familiar?

Ramone
June 6, 2011, 09:54 PM
NYS has COBIS-

http://troopers.ny.gov/faqs/Firearms/CoBIS/

Which has, after 10 years, and FORTY MILLION DOLLARS, has not resulted in one single conviction.

Apocalypse-Now
June 6, 2011, 09:59 PM
^^aha! so that NY thing i read is true! you do have submit a fire carteridge to the NY staties.

yep, i also read it hasn't resulted in one conviction, yet cost the tax payers plenty.

is NY the only state that enforces such stupidity? lol

Ramone
June 6, 2011, 10:10 PM
I think Maryland (?) has a similar system- also no convictions, IIRC.

PLRinmypocket
June 6, 2011, 10:18 PM
No.

but some do collect the cases for the states that require it. But they do not keep it for their own records.

FourTeeFive
June 6, 2011, 10:21 PM
From a manufacturing standpoint, I doubt they would spend a penny to analyze or store any of the data. Every penny you don't spend goes to profit.

toivo
June 6, 2011, 10:33 PM
New York has the COBIS system -- every new handgun has to have one fired case sent in to the state police to be kept on file for ballistic match "just in case." Since all handguns have to be registered in this state, theoretically they could match casings found at a crime scene to a fired case on file, and that would lead them to the perp. There's so much wrong with this theory that I won't even go into here, but let's just say they've had the system for 10 years and spent about $10 million on it, but it hasn't solved a single crime. There have been two positive hits in investigations in 10 years, and neither one led to a conviction.

EDIT TO ADD: Ramone, you posted while I was away from my computer. I think your $40 million estimate is kind of high: it cost them $4 million the first year, but some of that was start-up costs. Here's a local news story on it:

http://www.cbs6albany.com/video/c/1143371293/local-news/932990434001/wrgb-localnews-wrgb

Apocalypse-Now
June 6, 2011, 10:40 PM
^^oh, so they require the spent shell, not a fired bullet?

toivo
June 6, 2011, 11:44 PM
^^oh, so they require the spent shell, not a fired bullet?
Yes, that's correct.

Funny coincidence -- I was just at a Gander Mountain store asking about a Bersa Thunder .380 they have on sale. They had only one left and they couldn't sell it because the little baggie that the manufacturer puts the spent shell in was ripped. The state police won't accept them if they aren't sealed because then the "chain of evidence" has been broken. So now the pistol has to go to the state police to be fired again to get a new, "certified" spent case, and they can't sell the gun until they do this.

And it still hasn't solved one crime in 10 years. Isn't bureaucracy wonderful?

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 12:27 AM
^^gotta love liberal nonsense lol


so, when you buy a gun in NY, the dealer keeps the shells and sends them to the state police?

toivo
June 7, 2011, 02:01 AM
so, when you buy a gun in NY, the dealer keeps the shells and sends them to the state police?

Yes. Only new handguns. Not used handguns or any kind of long gun.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 02:06 AM
^^wow, that's bizarre lol. old news to you, new to me :)

does that increase the price of new pistols in NY?

Twiki357
June 7, 2011, 02:14 AM
Not sure, but I think california also requires the fired cartridge. If not, they probably will before long.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 02:15 AM
^^probably require the fired bullet eventually too lol

Twmaster
June 7, 2011, 02:16 AM
Maryland also requires a sealed fired case. The State Police run a program called "Integrated Ballistics Identification System (IBIS)". Dealers are required to send the sealed fired case to MSP when sold.

My new Walther came with a fired case. I used to live in the People's Republik of Maryland. I don't miss the place....

toivo
June 7, 2011, 02:19 AM
Not sure, but I think california also requires the fired cartridge. If not, they probably will before long.
Maryland does -- I don't know if California does yet.

does that increase the price of new pistols in NY?
Not usually Most of the handgun manufacturers now put the one spent case in the box for the states that require it. A few don't, and that means the dealer has to take the gun to the state police range and have them do it. Most dealers wait until they have a bunch that need to go over, so it keeps the buyers waiting. In those cases, the dealers probably tack a little extra onto the price for their trouble.

The taxpayers are the ones who are really footing the bill for all this nonsense. One day somebody will figure out that the gun buyers who are jumping through all these legal hoops aren't the ones who are committing the crimes.

EDIT TO ADD: I read somewhere that the Maryland State Police have spoken out against it. Theirs hasn't been any more successful than New York's, and they feel that they have better things to do with their time and budget.

withdrawn34
June 7, 2011, 02:30 AM
Some pistols just have that casing for ALL markets, since it can be cost prohibitive to do different packages for different markets. I know my XD came with a fired casing, even though FL doesn't have any ballistic "fingerprinting" requirement.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 02:31 AM
Maryland does -- I don't know if California does yet.

so, if you're in Maryland, you have to bring your new pistol to the police to have them fire a round and keep it? :eek: do they charge for that? :eek::eek:

toivo
June 7, 2011, 03:11 AM
so, if you're in Maryland, you have to bring your new pistol to the police to have them fire a round and keep it? do they charge for that?
No, I think paul34 has got it right: most manufacturers are doing it at the factory and putting the spent case in the box with the gun. Then if a state requires it, it's there. If not, the buyer of the gun can just throw it away. Or keep it as a souvenir of freedom... ;)

In New York, the deal with going to the state police is only necessary if the manufacturer doesn't provide the spent case. It's the dealer who has to do it, not the buyer. It has to happen before the sale.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 03:22 AM
^^wow, that has to add to to price. what nonsense. such a shame.

i really appreciate your input, my friend. this is all (shocking) news to me lol :)

Twmaster
June 7, 2011, 03:47 AM
so, if you're in Maryland, you have to bring your new pistol to the police to have them fire a round and keep it? do they charge for that?

No. MD prohibits new guns from being offered without the MFGR fired sealed casing. So there is nothing to do extra. The gun dealer simply sends that sealed fired casing to the State Police.

I had not heard MSP had come out against the IBIS system.

Of course it's the same old drill....

The same folks being put through the hoops are the law abiding citizens. Outlaws will always be able to get guns.

And as pointed out we the citizens pay for it all. I do not miss living in MD. Nope. Not at all.

toivo
June 7, 2011, 05:18 AM
I had not heard MSP had come out against the IBIS system.

This is actually going back a few years:

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=1464

I don't know about the current status of the program. It still exists, so I guess no one was listening. Now the New York antis want microstamping, thinking that somehow that will work where COBIS didn't.

BIGGBAY90
June 7, 2011, 05:43 AM
i highly doubt it.
yep they do, my friend purchase a gun (nyc) and on the box it had said that a round was fired a recorded---something of that nature

The Lone Haranguer
June 7, 2011, 07:29 PM
I can see keeping records on what kind of powder blend or bullet composition was used in particular lots or production runs of ammo, as this would be useful for analysis of gunshot residue. I can't see them doing what you suggest (if I understood it correctly). They would have to test fire the ammo through hundreds, if not thousands, of different guns.

atblis
June 7, 2011, 07:41 PM
yep they do, my friend purchase a gun (nyc) and on the box it had said that a round was fired a recorded---something of that nature
Sounds like you're referring to the fired casing thing. Last few guns I purchased came with a fired casing in a neat little envelope.

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 12:29 AM
so, as far as we know, no state requires a fired bullet, and only NY and MD require spent shells?

toivo
June 8, 2011, 01:11 AM
so, as far as we know, no state requires a fired bullet, and only NY and MD require spent shells?
I think that pretty much sums it up. The sooner they both drop it, the better, IMO.

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 01:14 AM
^^agreed. but that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to wasteful democrat policies lol :)

b.thomas
June 8, 2011, 03:01 AM
Nope, California dose not require the shell casing!
The last few years I've bought two brand new 9mm autos(S&W and a Ruger), both had shell casing in their boxes, supplied by the maker......... I tossed both in the trash! Last gun (revolver) I bought was a consignment/private party deal and didn't even have a shell casing to deal with. :cool:

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