My UPS guy and OPSEC after several large ammo purchases


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Good&Fruity
June 6, 2011, 09:28 PM
Over the last few months I've ordered...more than a few cases of ammo. Today, he had a strange look on his face. He seems like a guy in his own world, with one of those handlebar moustaches, but I can't help but wonder if he is the weak link in my opsec. I hope he doesn't rob me or tell his friends that I have a ton of ammo, and likely a bunch of guns to go with it.

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Owen Sparks
June 6, 2011, 09:42 PM
Maybe the doctor just told him he has cancer or his wife left him for the Fed-Ex driver. Doin't worry about it if you did nothing illegal.

Ramone
June 6, 2011, 09:45 PM
wasn't it a UPS driver that reported the large amounts of ammo to the Branch Davidian folks that got that whole mess started?

kingpin008
June 6, 2011, 10:31 PM
wasn't it a UPS driver that reported the large amounts of ammo to the Branch Davidian folks that got that whole mess started?

It was a delivery of grenade hulls that broke open. That, and reports of sexual abuse of children by Koresh.

Either way - I'd not worry too much. If your house is properly hardened and your observation skills are decent, you'll probably be fine.

Good&Fruity
June 6, 2011, 10:33 PM
I'm not worried about anything illegal. I specifically stated my concerns.

I hope he doesn't rob me or tell his friends that I have a ton of ammo, and likely a bunch of guns to go with it.

leadcounsel
June 6, 2011, 10:42 PM
I have the same concerns. Not a lot you can do about it from the outside other than be really friendly with him, maybe a nice holiday gift or something to make him friendly.

On your home, harden your security on the outside and inside.

Good&Fruity
June 6, 2011, 10:45 PM
Nice thing about my house is that two of my neighbors are home during the day. The couple are retired, and my other neighbors wife is a stay at home mom. I've got that working for me, as they'd likely call the cops if anyone was trying to break into the place.

marv
June 6, 2011, 10:50 PM
My former UPS guy was my shooting buddy.

splithoof
June 6, 2011, 10:50 PM
For better OPSEC, you might find a way to have deliveries sent to another location where a trusted friend could take them in. Many internet ammunition sellers will let you add items to a cart, then snail-mail a payment, for which you can use a money order. Build your mailing identity through that other location, but be careful how you establish your credentials for legal purchase, if required. With some effort it can be done. Depending on where you reside, different methods may have to be considered. If all else fails, there is always the vacation road trip with ca$h.

jakk280rem
June 6, 2011, 11:00 PM
Would it be possible to work out something with your local gunshop?

oneounceload
June 6, 2011, 11:11 PM
Sounds like much ado about nothing. UPS drivers have 9-10 hours worth of deliveries to do in 8 hours - they just want to drop it off and go

LawScholar
June 7, 2011, 12:32 AM
Sounds like much ado about nothing. UPS drivers have 9-10 hours worth of deliveries to do in 8 hours - they just want to drop it off and go

This. I am responsible for sorting mail for an apartment building. There is far too much to do to really care about it.

HorseSoldier
June 7, 2011, 12:39 AM
That, and reports of sexual abuse of children by Koresh.

Yeah, the baby banging is what seriously put Koresh & Company on the law enforcement radar, even if guns and ATF were the final outcome of that radar blip.

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 12:46 AM
Sounds like much ado about nothing. UPS drivers have 9-10 hours worth of deliveries to do in 8 hours - they just want to drop it off and go


You realize many have been caught stealing packages they were supposed to be delivering? Also, just because they deliver packages all day doesn't mean something heavy like several cases of ammo, clearly marked as ammo deliver to the same house over the last few months doesn't get their attention. For all I know, the guy could be a thief or knows thieves.

On the plus side, he usually leaves the packages in my back yard when I'm not home, and delivers to the front door when I am. So in some sense that's a good sign.

leadcounsel
June 7, 2011, 01:23 AM
For a fee you could use a common package delivery location like a Mailboxes Etc. But that will eat into the savings on the bulk ammo and going to pick it up.

ShroomFish
June 7, 2011, 01:37 AM
I would not worry too much about it, I mean c'mon he may have seemed in his own world cause maybe something bad happened in his family...

My problem with my UPS guy is he seems scared of my house, even on Sig Req. shipment he drops them and runs (literally runs)...

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 01:57 AM
For a fee you could use a common package delivery location like a Mailboxes Etc. But that will eat into the savings on the bulk ammo and going to pick it up.


Yeah my corworkers suggested having packages delivered to work. They don't know about my hobby...kind of hard to explain or hide the contents of a 40lb package marked "7.62x39mm HUNTING CARTRIDGES" lol

Ignition Override
June 7, 2011, 03:00 AM
Maybe have a chat for a moment and try to read his id if legible.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 03:24 AM
My problem with my UPS guy is he seems scared of my house, even on Sig Req. shipment he drops them and runs (literally runs)...


LMAO!

BHP FAN
June 7, 2011, 03:41 AM
''My problem with my UPS guy is he seems scared of my house, even on Sig Req. shipment he drops them and runs (literally runs)...''
wow! mine, too!

ShroomFish
June 7, 2011, 06:37 AM
@Apocalypse-Now

It is pretty funny anit it :P

@BHP FAN

We must be brother, separated at birth!

Yeager
June 7, 2011, 06:38 AM
You guys are way too paranoid.

I don't hide the fact that I own guns, I'm quite proud of it.

If I have to hide and become a social pariah, lurking in the shadows like a pedophile to enjoy a right it really isn't much of a right.

I really wouldn't give it a second thought, but I've had random people from Comcast, to the mailman in my flat looking at my guns.

bikerdoc
June 7, 2011, 07:24 AM
Yes you should be worried!!!

Gentlemen pay attention.

Since retiring I got a dream job at a gun store. I send out the internet ammo orders via UPS.
Fact, 99.99% of all drivers are super honest nice guys, who could care less what you bought.
The but is we have had problems with theft.

To their credit UPS has a great security dept and makes good on the product and prosecutes the perp.

OP, express your concerns to the local UPS terminal management. They are committed to customer service and realize the driver is the face of their company to the public.

If he does have a personal problem they got a great employee assistance program. Might be doing him a favor. If he just had a bad day he might get some reeducation. If his intentions are nefarious, they will stongly counsel all the drivers with an inservice on company policy.

Then harden and layer your home defenses.

pockets
June 7, 2011, 07:50 AM
He seems like a guy in his own world, with one of those handlebar moustaches, but I can't help but wonder if he is the weak link in my opsec.
No doubt, folks with mustaches cannot be trusted...especially the handlebar variety. Seriously?
Did you consider he may actually be thinking about something interesting, while doing the insanely boring job of hauling your package from his truck to your front door?
OPSEC? Is your house a military base or something?

I must agree with "much ado about nothing".
.

Babarsac
June 7, 2011, 09:17 AM
I've had plenty of ammo and C&R guns delivered right to my doorstep by UPS. Never had an issue or comment.

Vern Humphrey
June 7, 2011, 09:57 AM
It was a delivery of grenade hulls that broke open. That, and reports of sexual abuse of children by Koresh.
The grenade hulls were perfectly legal -- they were inert training grenades.

The sexual abuse allegations had already been investigated by the Sheriff, and were not Federal crimes anyway.

Ultravox
June 7, 2011, 10:04 AM
When the mailman dropped off my first order of bullets from Missouri Bullet (about 60 lbs of them) he rang the doorbell and when I got there he said "I think your bullets are here."

There was nothing on the box to indicate the contents. :)

It turns out he shoots and reloads too and we spent about 15 minutes chatting about guns. He has a 10mm and is building an AR.

merlinfire
June 7, 2011, 11:21 AM
You wouldn't happen to have copious amounts of rice stored in 5 gallon buckets sealed in mylar, would you? Cause when I hear OPSEC, that's what I think of. Party at your house!

hso
June 7, 2011, 11:29 AM
Quit ordering ammo delivered to your house if you're concerned about someone knowing you have a lot of ammo.

LKB3rd
June 7, 2011, 11:29 AM
When the mailman dropped off my first order of bullets from Missouri Bullet (about 60 lbs of them) he rang the doorbell and when I got there he said "I think your bullets are here."

There was nothing on the box to indicate the contents.

It turns out he shoots and reloads too and we spent about 15 minutes chatting about guns. He has a 10mm and is building an AR.

I ran into my mailman at a local indoor range, and we said hi, and traded turns on each others handguns. I showed him the holster he had delivered shortly before that :P

As far as the OP, I'd just be polite and ease his fears, and not worry about it. If he reports you for the non crime of buying ammo, I don't see how much could come of it.. It's sort of sad that we even have to worry about this, but I see the stories too about huge overreactions.

RichBMW
June 7, 2011, 11:39 AM
I get a couple of UPS deliveries every week, many from Amazon or other online purchasing spots. I don't think my UPS driver (unless he's a firearms aficionado) notices that some are from Cabela's or Midway or what they may contain.
Anyway, Walmart seems to have most of the ammo I want nowadays.;)

2WheelsGood
June 7, 2011, 11:44 AM
I hope he doesn't rob me or tell his friends that I have a ton of ammo, and likely a bunch of guns to go with it.I think it's a valid concern. I changed to the electronic version of The American Rifleman because I don't want all of the postal workers to connect that magazine with my address. Why advertise?

vaherder
June 7, 2011, 01:54 PM
Back 20 years ago some fool hit me. I took it to the top body shop for imports in the DC area. One that was recommended by BMW and Mercedes car club members. I was living in a house with carport and not garage in a very low crime neighborhood in Fairfax County. I locked the car doors when I got home from picking my GTI 16v up at the bodyshop. When I went out to start it up to go to work found my big buck stereo set up to include speakers gone. Only damage done was a cracked trim place. Guys who did it were pros. Some of the screws holding the speakers were 3in long and they removed the seat to get the amp and crossover. Bodyshop owner was also a good friend. This was not a random car stereo theft. They knew what they were doing. I took the owner to lunch and we came up with a plan. He had the UPS guy ask around about stereo equipment for sale. One of the shop employees offered my equipment for sale. Unusual to have Canton car stereo speakers etc available. FCPD was in on it. They nabbed the guy with my equipment and he turned in his accomplices. Mike and his dad the owners were very upset. Perps got 24mos since it wasnt there first offense.

Point I am trying to make is you never know. I always only give my car key for service etc. Never leave any other keys on that ring. The perps did make a copy of my key. UPS guy is probably on the up and up. Chances are if he was going to break in he would be more interested in Iphones, Ipads and laptops because he would have ready buyers and know what he could get for it. he probably doesnt have a clue what he could sell 100rds of 9mm for.

oneounceload
June 7, 2011, 02:04 PM
You realize many have been caught stealing packages they were supposed to be delivering?

No, have any published data to support this?

I worked Sunrise shift for a summer while teaching - this was back when RSR. J&G and others still shipped via UPS Ground. Now I knew who those folks were, because I was into guns at the time. If you weren't, it was just another package. Besides, everything is scanned in so many locations they can tell you who "misdelivered" your package if need be.

Again, way too much paranoia these days - loosen the tin foil hats gentlemen, it really ISN'T that bad outside your door

2WheelsGood
June 7, 2011, 02:07 PM
Again, way too much paranoia these days - loosen the tin foil hats gentlemen, it really ISN'T that bad outside your doorYou realize the general public says the same about you for owning guns, period? It's all in where you draw the line.

oneounceload
June 7, 2011, 02:35 PM
I reload in my garage with the door up (it's HOT here in Florida). People drive by all the time, look in, and most would have NO idea what I am doing in there.

The trash man sees my empty flats of shotgun shells and just hauls it away with the other trash.

People aren't really out to get you or take the time to remember they dropped off some ammo at one address of 100 they delivered to that day.

We used to buy shotshells by the pallet - that was a group bulk purchase, especially when 2 or 3 pallets were brought into the neighborhood via a semi and off-loaded by hand - no one cared we just off loaded 75,000 rounds of shotgun shells

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 02:40 PM
another option is, many places that ship ammo will give you cheaper shipping prices to a business. fedex and ups actually charge less to ship to a business than a residence. there are many ammo sites that don't pass on the savings to you though, but many do.

a site i deal with a lot for ammo does knock about five bucks off shipping when i send it to a relative's business, rather than my home.

obviously not everyone has a business they can send ammo to lol, but if you can, check it out :)

buck460XVR
June 7, 2011, 02:45 PM
Quit ordering ammo delivered to your house if you're concerned about someone knowing you have a lot of ammo.

^this.

I hardly get any bullets/brass thru UPS anymore since the USPS started their flat rate boxes. Last time the mail lady knocked on a door with another 2000 bullets, she said "must be a bullet sale on, cause this is the 6th box today so far on my route and I'm only half done". I don't expect her to steal my components anymore than I suspect she steals old ladies social security checks.

Gordon_Freeman
June 7, 2011, 03:05 PM
I think the Ups drivers get paid very well and have a good work ethic. People like that are not the ones to worry about.

au01st
June 7, 2011, 03:07 PM
Maybe get more friendly with the delivery guy? My UPS driver has my cell number and I have his. One of my other hobbies is my saltwater reef tank, and I often order fish or corals online. I give him a text the night before delivery and the next day he calls me 30min before he's due at my house. I talked with him one time about my concerns of sealed bags of water sitting in the Alabama sun, and this is how we worked it out. An extra $10 tip for my live deliveries keeps me and him happy (since generally shipping is $50+ for overnight stuff and I only order exotic stuff online, the $10 comes out to a few percent of the total cost). I know tipping isn't the way to save money, but maybe just build a relationship and get to know their name.

Black Knight
June 7, 2011, 03:08 PM
Maybe found just found out how to pronounce the company name. In my part of the country we don't call it U-P-S we call it OOOPS.

Mudinyeri
June 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
I find it useful to be on friendly terms with my regular delivery personnel - USPS, UPS, FedEx. We frequently wave to one another even when we're not near my house. I used to run a business from my home with a daily UPS pick up. My UPS gal and I are on very cordial terms. I used to have her cell phone number in case I missed her for a pick up. I could call her and meet her nearby on her lunch break.

A little "thank you" at Christmas never hurts either.

No matter what aspect of life, if you have people on whom you rely ... treat them well.

Food for thought.

CTPhil
June 7, 2011, 04:06 PM
My former UPS guy was my shooting buddy.
Ha ha, my current UPS guy is my shooting buddy too. I usually open my ammo deliveries while he's still there so he can see what I bought, lol.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 04:07 PM
Maybe found just found out how to pronounce the company name. In my part of the country we don't call it U-P-S we call it OOOPS.

yep. i mail order a lot, and without a doubt FedEx and the USPS both have far superior service (and speed of delivery) to UPS. if i have an option, FedeEx is my first choice, then USPS.

ForumSurfer
June 7, 2011, 05:00 PM
Maybe he is a gun guy and wanted to start a conversation but felt he would be invading your privacy, plus he was rushed for time? Handlebar mustache guys can like guns, too ya know...just go to a cowboy action shoot.

:neener:

He seems like a guy in his own world

You know, there are an awful lot of people who would say the same thing about those of us who shoot often and carry around a firearm we'll likely never need in defense. I'm just saying, don't be too quick to judge. :)

I get your point, I'm pretty distrustful of people, myself.

My UPS guy is awesome. He gets all excited when I order high performance parts. As a matter of fact, he once asked if I would open up a custom intake and supercharger I had ordered while he was there. I thought there for a second he was going to stick around and help bolt it on, bot no...he just talked my ear off.

dcdub
June 7, 2011, 05:53 PM
Anyone here who says "don't worry about it" ever try to ship a handgun through UPS? That expensive 2nd day air rule stemmed from "loss" within the company. That said, I myself would be more worried about the sorters and loaders than the drivers. My local hub definitely has a few shady characters working there...

If you're really that worried about it, save up a few bucks and get yourself a good camera system. If someone steals your stuff you'll have a decent shot at catching them and getting said stuff back

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:05 PM
No doubt, folks with mustaches cannot be trusted...especially the handlebar variety. Seriously?
Did you consider he may actually be thinking about something interesting, while doing the insanely boring job of hauling your package from his truck to your front door?
OPSEC? Is your house a military base or something?

I must agree with "much ado about nothing".
.


Dude, you are reading way too much into it, so don't attack me. I merely gave a description of him and his aloof demeanor to point out that maybe he's not a threat. It was pretty easy to figure that out. :upeyes:

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:07 PM
Maybe get more friendly with the delivery guy?

Not such a bad idea. I might offer him a soda next time, espcially since it's summer and he's sweating all day.

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:10 PM
No, have any published data to support this?

I worked Sunrise shift for a summer while teaching - this was back when RSR. J&G and others still shipped via UPS Ground. Now I knew who those folks were, because I was into guns at the time. If you weren't, it was just another package. Besides, everything is scanned in so many locations they can tell you who "misdelivered" your package if need be.

Again, way too much paranoia these days - loosen the tin foil hats gentlemen, it really ISN'T that bad outside your door


Educate yourself, all it takes is paying attention to the news. Here's a 2 second google search with tons of stories of UPS drivers stealing packages. I hear about it here all the time. Along with USPS, FedEX, etc.



UPS Driver, Wife Team Up to Steal Packages, Sell Merchandise on eBay

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013230-504083.html


UPS Worker Accused Of Stealing Packages

http://www.kcra.com/r/22052960/detail.html

UPS worker charged with stealing packages

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/aug/13/ups-driver-charged-stealing-packages/

More.
http://www.google.com/search?q=people+stealing+packages&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=mail%20man%20stealing%20packages&xhr=t&q=ups+stealing+packages&cp=4&pf=p&sclient=psy&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=hp&aq=0sx&aqi=&aql=&oq=uups+stealing+packages&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=999deff09172bf35&biw=779&bih=389

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:17 PM
As far as the OP, I'd just be polite and ease his fears, and not worry about it. If he reports you for the non crime of buying ammo, I don't see how much could come of it.. It's sort of sad that we even have to worry about this, but I see the stories too about huge overreactions.

You may find it helpful to read the post before responding. I stated very clearly that my concern is that he may rob me. I ordered the ammo online...with a credit card. I'm not worried about getting caught doing anything. I'm worried about getting robbed by the guy who delivers all the ammo I buy.

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:21 PM
You guys are way too paranoid.

I don't hide the fact that I own guns, I'm quite proud of it.

If I have to hide and become a social pariah, lurking in the shadows like a pedophile to enjoy a right it really isn't much of a right.

I really wouldn't give it a second thought, but I've had random people from Comcast, to the mailman in my flat looking at my guns.

Then why not put an advertisement in the paper with what guns you have, and your address, as well as when you are not home? Try it, and report back how it goes.

Apocalypse-Now
June 7, 2011, 11:26 PM
Educate yourself, all it takes is paying attention to the news. Here's a 2 second google search with tons of stories of UPS drivers stealing packages. I hear about it here all the time. Along with USPS, FedEX, etc.


whenever you add a human element to anything, you'll find dishonesty. unless you're able to have your packages transported to you like star trek, you'll have to make do. that's one of the reasons they offer insurance ;)

Good&Fruity
June 7, 2011, 11:29 PM
whenever you add a human element to anything, you'll find dishonesty. unless you're able to have your packages transported to you like star trek, you'll have to make do. that's one of the reasons they offer insurance

I wear a seat belt when I drive my car, a car that is insured, doesn't mean I want to get into a wreck. In the same way, just because I have home owners insurance doesn't mean I want to get robbed. If I can prevent it I will. I merely wanted to see if my concerns were warranted, and what mitigating steps I could take.

orionengnr
June 7, 2011, 11:44 PM
Since retiring I got a dream job at a gun store. I send out the internet ammo orders via UPS.Fact, 99.99% of all drivers are super honest nice guys, who could care less what you bought. The but is we have had problems with theft.
Questionable "fact"...if less than one in ten thousand UPS employees were dishonest, we would not be forced into using "Next Day" shipping from both UPS and FedEx.

Sorry, sounds like partisan BS to me.

Fact is, UPS and FedEx have plenty of dishonest employees (and plenty of examples thereof), they are not nearly dilligent enough about rooting them out, and you and I pay for those shortcomings.

au01st
June 7, 2011, 11:53 PM
Not such a bad idea. I might offer him a soda next time, espcially since it's summer and he's sweating all day.

Having worked a summer job where I was outside from 6am-4pm, I'd bet he would appreciate an ice cold water or sports drink over a coke. I really think that's the best way to go, though, just show some gratitude; a little goes a long way.

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 12:03 AM
I wear a seat belt when I drive my car, a car that is insured, doesn't mean I want to get into a wreck. In the same way, just because I have home owners insurance doesn't mean I want to get robbed. If I can prevent it I will. I merely wanted to see if my concerns were warranted, and what mitigating steps I could take.

what's your point? if never want anything bad to happen, you'll never leave the house, drive, or order ammo online.

Nushif
June 8, 2011, 12:17 AM
I'll be honest. I am kinda giggling at the use of OPSEC here.

And I do agree with the folks saying there's much ado about nothing.

So you started mistrusting some random guy doing his job, right? What can you do do? Frankly within the realms of civilized interaction not much. Harden your house I guess.

But at a certain point I have to ask you something. Who are you to doubt the UPS guy? How would you feel if you were a UPS guy and this one customer you deliver to sometimes gives you "the eye" and asks for your ID. Worse. He calls your supervisor to confirm that you are who are ... Each ... Single ... Last ... Time. At which point can we consider the customer at fault for really being pretty suspicious?

I know we keep saying "don't advertise" but a good part of that is also not being the guy who triple checks the ID of everyone at their door. Or the guy who doesnt answer his door with ten deadbolts dangling in the gruff "WHATCHU WANT?!" tone.

Sometimes acting naturally can be the better defense than ten deadbolts, answering your door with obvious suspicion and triple checking IDs. Remember. You're not the one doing a crime, why are you acting the part?

Frankly I'm much more wary of the constantly suspicious guy who looks behind him wherever he goes and looks genuinely scared, than the average non-chalant guy walking down the street.

And at a certain point I have to question why we for some reason assume everyone is out to get us?! FFS! He's just the UPS guy. Even if he's a crook, are we going to start treating all delivery people like potential crooks now? I could liken that to some other cause near and dear to our hearts.

SMITHWESS
June 8, 2011, 12:24 AM
My guy just gives me dirty looks for making him schlupp 60lb boxes up to my stoop

medalguy
June 8, 2011, 12:28 AM
You know, there are a thousand ways for the bad guys to find out who has guns and ammo. Sit outside a gun shop. Watch the local range. Stroll thru Wally World. Or maybe have a buddy at the local delivery company pick up addresses. There's just no way you can protect yourself 100% of the time. If you spend all day worrying about maybe who's watching you, it'll drive you nutty pretty quickly.

And really, do you have any idea how many firearms related packages a typical driver delivers in a day? My son works for one of these companies and he's always telling me about the really REALLY heavy packages they scan coming from the various dealers I buy from, and HE buys from. He has even picked up a couple of sources for components by seeing the Hazmat labels as they come down the line.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the whole thing. Most drivers are honest, there's always that one bad one but you can't ever tell. And I agree about giving your driver a nice remembrance at Christmas time. That includes the postal carrier bringing all those nice flat rate boxes to your door. Believe me, it does help.

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 12:35 AM
what's your point? if never want anything bad to happen, you'll never leave the house, drive, or order ammo online.

What was your point? That I have insurance and not to worry about it? My point is that just because I have insurance doesn't mean I want to have something bad to happen. Don't turn this into a straw man argument with statements about never leaving the house if I don't want anything to happen. Such statements are logical fallacies aimed at discrediting a valid point by going to extremes. If one can avoid something bad happening through mitigating steps, then why not.

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 12:37 AM
my point is, insurance is meant to cover things like loss of UPS packages. if you're that concerned about it, don't mail order ammo.

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 12:42 AM
And really, do you have any idea how many firearms related packages a typical driver delivers in a day? My son works for one of these companies and he's always telling me about the really REALLY heavy packages they scan coming from the various dealers I buy from, and HE buys from. He has even picked up a couple of sources for components by seeing the Hazmat labels as they come down the line.



This is interesting. Good post.

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 12:43 AM
my point is, insurance is meant to cover things like loss of UPS packages. if you're that concerned about it, don't mail order ammo.


I've repeatedly said I was worried about getting robbed because he knows I buy a lot of ammo and likely have a bunch of stuff on hand, not a lost UPS package. :banghead:

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 12:51 AM
then, as i just said, and others on this thread have also said: stop ordering ammo if you're worried about it. you won't find the consolation you're looking for on an internet forum.

natman
June 8, 2011, 05:02 AM
Over the last few months I've ordered...more than a few cases of ammo. Today, he had a strange look on his face. He seems like a guy in his own world, with one of those handlebar moustaches, but I can't help but wonder if he is the weak link in my opsec. I hope he doesn't rob me or tell his friends that I have a ton of ammo, and likely a bunch of guns to go with it.

Yes you should be worried!!!

Gentlemen pay attention.

Since retiring I got a dream job at a gun store. I send out the internet ammo orders via UPS.
Fact, 99.99% of all drivers are super honest nice guys, who could care less what you bought.
The but is we have had problems with theft.

To their credit UPS has a great security dept and makes good on the product and prosecutes the perp.

OP, express your concerns to the local UPS terminal management. They are committed to customer service and realize the driver is the face of their company to the public.

If he does have a personal problem they got a great employee assistance program. Might be doing him a favor. If he just had a bad day he might get some reeducation. If his intentions are nefarious, they will stongly counsel all the drivers with an inservice on company policy.

Then harden and layer your home defenses.

Just what exactly do you plan on saying to the UPS driver's management? That he delivered the package properly but wasn't sufficiently sociable?

I suggest that you and the OP take a look in the mirror and subject yourselves to the same level of psychological scrutiny you're putting this poor driver through just because "he knows".

goon
June 8, 2011, 05:21 AM
So your concern is that, knowing you have several thousand rounds of ammunition to potentially shoot at him, this UPS guy has gotten it in his head to rob you?

Were I intent on robbing someone and surviving, I think I'd want to choose someone who didn't have several thousand rounds of ammo. But that's just me.

Yeager
June 8, 2011, 05:48 AM
Then why not put an advertisement in the paper with what guns you have, and your address, as well as when you are not home? Try it, and report back how it goes.

Hello apples, meet oranges.

When I hear the term Opsec the image of a mall ninja comes to mind.

MarkDozier
June 8, 2011, 05:49 AM
Just to throw my professional military opinion in the OP has no grasp of what OPSEC is.
He is clearly confusing physical security with operational security.

fbernar
June 8, 2011, 05:52 AM
My UPS guy AND Fedex guy run. Why? Because they are in a huge hurry.

Deltaboy
June 8, 2011, 10:49 AM
Get to know your UPS guy; I use a shipping center and the Lady who runs it is a Gun nut. She takes care of our local gun shop and anybody they refer to her for repair shipping or ammo.

Toforo
June 8, 2011, 11:02 AM
Educate yourself, all it takes is paying attention to the news. Here's a 2 second google search with tons of stories of UPS drivers stealing packages. I hear about it here all the time. Along with USPS, FedEX, etc.



UPS Driver, Wife Team Up to Steal Packages, Sell Merchandise on eBay

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20013230-504083.html


UPS Worker Accused Of Stealing Packages

http://www.kcra.com/r/22052960/detail.html

UPS worker charged with stealing packages

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/aug/13/ups-driver-charged-stealing-packages/

More.
http://www.google.com/search?q=people+stealing+packages&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=mail%20man%20stealing%20packages&xhr=t&q=ups+stealing+packages&cp=4&pf=p&sclient=psy&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&source=hp&aq=0sx&aqi=&aql=&oq=uups+stealing+packages&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=999deff09172bf35&biw=779&bih=389
GREAT examples of UPS delivery employees stealing PACKAGES!!

Since your cited examples are different than your original stated concerns -

- were you able to find any examples to show us about UPS delivery employees master-minding a home-invasion or break-in to steal what they had previously delivered?

newbuckeye
June 8, 2011, 11:28 AM
For a fee you could use a common package delivery location like a Mailboxes Etc. But that will eat into the savings on the bulk ammo and going to pick it up.

That is exactly what I do. (UPS Store) I also have a psycho ex wife so It helps me with my OPSEC in more ways than one.

oneounceload
June 8, 2011, 11:47 AM
Of course, the OP's Large ammo purchase has never been defined. A green dry box from Cabela's with a few hundred rounds? A truckload of AP surplus? Or something in between.

Since there about as many crooked cops as UPS drivers, perhaps you should be worried if you have a CCW as now they know you have a gun. Don't forget your homeowner's insurance rep, because you DO have your firearms insured with a separate rider to cover losses, right?

How about the credit card companies that can track your purchases and see where you have been shopping. Don't forget all those "cookies" trackers from buying on-line.

After looking at it, half the world has the info you bought some ammo. Doesn't mean you need to buy a mountaintop bunker.....

89yj
June 8, 2011, 12:21 PM
I can't imagine that many UPS employees would risk a home burglary or home invasion. It would seem much easier for them to steal packages enroute or reroute them to another address.
It's probably harder to do now that there is more computer tracking, but I remember how easy it would have been to simply relabel a package when I worked there about 15 years ago.

Fact is, UPS and FedEx have plenty of dishonest employees (and plenty of examples thereof), they are not nearly dilligent enough about rooting them out, and you and I pay for those shortcomings.

UPS is the only union company I've ever worked for. It left a very bad impression on me that the union would go to great lengths to protect employees that really should have been fired.

medalguy
June 8, 2011, 07:03 PM
Deltaboy must use the same drop box store I use. The lady there is always telling me when I walk in "You got more bullets" and her husband wants to go shooting with me one day. :rolleyes:

Apocalypse-Now
June 8, 2011, 07:33 PM
a thread on your UPS delivery guy has actually gone to 4 pages? :eek:

lol

grubbylabs
June 8, 2011, 09:36 PM
I don't eve n know what OPSEC stands for but it sounds like someone has been watching to much self defense TV and playing to many video games. I for one am all for accruing as much ammo as possible, but I just want to be able to shoot, not defeat the invasion of the zombie army.

Tennessee Ned
June 8, 2011, 09:43 PM
I was just on the UPS forum and there was a thread from one driver who was complaining that his back was hurting from delivering case after case of ammo. That's probably your guy. ;)

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 09:47 PM
GREAT examples of UPS delivery employees stealing PACKAGES!!

Since your cited examples are different than your original stated concerns -

- were you able to find any examples to show us about UPS delivery employees master-minding a home-invasion or break-in to steal what they had previously delivered?

:banghead:
If you read the thread you'll note that the following posts took place.

Sounds like much ado about nothing. UPS drivers have 9-10 hours worth of deliveries to do in 8 hours - they just want to drop it off and go

While my concern was about being robbed as a result of him now knowing I have all this stuff (OPSEC), not having my package stolen by the UPS guy, I stated the following in reply to his assertion about them being too busy to be stealing packages.
You realize many have been caught stealing packages they were supposed to be delivering?


Here he is asking me to cite a source

No, have any published data to support this?

I cited a source. If you really want to look for additional evidence, google is your friend. I'm tired of being distracted with posts about 'they could just steal the package at the UPS facility' because some people can't read. READ - THE - ORIGINAL - POST. I said I'm concerned about getting robbed because he knows I have all this ammo I ordered recently, not that I'm worried about him stealing my packages.:banghead:

daorhgih
June 8, 2011, 09:52 PM
Can a person in one state ship via their UPS franchised office, some bullets (less than 50#) to another persons UPS mailbox in another state? Like, is there a "franchisee" who might balk at accepting ammo for delivery and direct one to the Hub, or whatever? I'm getting a bit of static from the shop-owner. How do we do this on the up-n-up?

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 09:53 PM
Just what exactly do you plan on saying to the UPS driver's management? That he delivered the package properly but wasn't sufficiently sociable?

I suggest that you and the OP take a look in the mirror and subject yourselves to the same level of psychological scrutiny you're putting this poor driver through just because "he knows".

Did you read the thread? I've repeatedly stated that the description of the driver, and his state of mind was given to point out that maybe he is not the kind of guy that would rob someone. He wasn't nosey, peering through my open door when delivering the package. He seemed like they kind of guy that just wants to do his own thing (moustache) and minds his own business (in his own world).

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 09:59 PM
oh brother.

Mudinyeri
June 8, 2011, 10:00 PM
Can a person in one state ship via their UPS franchised office, some bullets (less than 50#) to another persons UPS mailbox in another state? Like, is there a "franchisee" who might balk at accepting ammo for delivery and direct one to the Hub, or whatever? I'm getting a bit of static from the shop-owner. How do we do this on the up-n-up?
The retail stores are not allowed to ship ORM-D per company policy.

daorhgih
June 8, 2011, 10:00 PM
Hey, Mark, often they ARE the same. Does "need to know/HUMINT" strike you as flim-flam also?

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 10:00 PM
I can't imagine that many UPS employees would risk a home burglary or home invasion. It would seem much easier for them to steal packages enroute or reroute them to another address.

I'll say AGAIN. Not worried about the guy stealing the package here...

Good&Fruity
June 8, 2011, 10:14 PM
Of course, the OP's Large ammo purchase has never been defined. A green dry box from Cabela's with a few hundred rounds? A truckload of AP surplus? Or something in between.

Not a green dry box, and not a truckload of AP surplus. My OP stated "..ordered...more than a few cases of ammo". Obviously not a green dry box.


Since there about as many crooked cops as UPS drivers, perhaps you should be worried if you have a CCW as now they know you have a gun. Don't forget your homeowner's insurance rep, because you DO have your firearms insured with a separate rider to cover losses, right?

More crooked cops than UPS drivers? Source please? Besides, a ccw on my person at a traffic stop doesn't equate to "jackpot" at home. Delivering a lot of ammo to my home does mean "jackpot" at home.

How about the credit card companies that can track your purchases and see where you have been shopping. Don't forget all those "cookies" trackers from buying on-line.

My purchase says some random number on my statement, not "5,000" rounds of Hunting Cartridges". Can't really tell what I ordered. Also, they are on the other side of the country, not like they are going to quit their job and drive across the country to steal my stuff.

The UPS guy lives here and knows what's in the packages because they are heavy and clearly marked as ammo.

alsaqr
June 8, 2011, 10:22 PM
Sounds like much ado about nothing. UPS drivers have 9-10 hours worth of deliveries to do in 8 hours - they just want to drop it off and go

Bingo. Our UPS guy has delivered black powder, smokeless powder, thousands of primers, big boxes of bullets and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammo over the years. He rings the doorbell and books unless a signature is required.

feedthehogs
June 8, 2011, 11:05 PM
Just tell mom to put an alarm system in the house and quit using acronyms like opsec and stalking the cat at night in black pajamas wearing gen 1 night vision.

straybullet
June 8, 2011, 11:13 PM
If one can avoid something bad happening through mitigating steps, then why not.

This is the whole reason I have a home defense weapon, I pray that it will never lead to a situation where I have to use it to defend my familys or my life but on the off chance something one day could happen I remain vigilant. So many people here seem to think a mans reasoning for feeling uneasy is "much ado about nothing". This thread isn't about the statistics on how many times a delivery employee has robbed a home, it's about the unease of the OP and the "what-if".


Operations security (OPSEC) is a process that identifies critical information to determine if friendly actions can be observed by adversary intelligence systems, determines if information obtained by adversaries could be interpreted to be useful to them, and then executes selected measures that eliminate or reduce adversary exploitation of friendly critical information.

^Also seems to fit the OPs concern in a round about fashion.

straybullet
June 8, 2011, 11:14 PM
Just tell mom to put an alarm system in the house and quit using acronyms like opsec and stalking the cat at night in black pajamas wearing gen 1 night vision.

That sure sounds high road...

CZguy
June 8, 2011, 11:30 PM
Bingo. Our UPS guy has delivered black powder, smokeless powder, thousands of primers, big boxes of bullets and a few hundred thousand rounds of ammo over the years. He rings the doorbell and books unless a signature is required.

Yep same here. My brother in law is a UPS driver and when I asked him about this thread, he said "they are kept at a flat run all day, and could care less what they are delivering".

In other words don't worry about OPSEC...........but you have severely compromised COMSEC by posting this on the internet. :D

Toforo
June 8, 2011, 11:40 PM
Yep same here. My brother in law is a UPS driver and when I asked him about this thread, he said "they are kept at a flat run all day, and could care less what they are delivering".

In other words don't worry about OPSEC...........but you have severely compromised COMSEC by posting this on the internet. :D
The thing I hated about working COMSEC was taking flak from everyone you had to report for their EEFI violations.

Sheesh!

NAVSECGRU ROCKED!
In God we trusted - everyone else, we monitored....

smcd1983
June 9, 2011, 01:24 AM
I understand the desire for privacy here, and there have been some good points made in that aspect, but how am I only the second person to think that ripping off the guy who buys ammo by the case sounds like a terrible idea. I know not all crooks are smart but i'd be more worried about large shipment of electronics or something getting that kind of attention than ammo. I think the ammo might even be a deterrent to most would be thieves as its a pretty good sign that you're armed and practice too.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
June 9, 2011, 05:42 AM
To paraphrase everyone who told you before, if you're that concerned... Don't order your ammunition online.

And for the what if situation? Let them burglarize your home, call the cops, give a description of the driver, call the company, inform them of what happened, and file the insurance paperwork. SIMPLE AS PIE.

bbuddtec
June 9, 2011, 06:34 AM
I get the same look when I have tires delivered, hehe, and my mail lady puts my projectile shipments in a plastic bag when it's rainy :)

I'd go with throw the dude something cold to drink and see. (I like iced tea, hehe :D )

CTPhil
June 9, 2011, 09:32 AM
I'm not concerned about a delivery person targeting me because of ammo purchases.

1. With all of the low hanging fruit out there, why would you target someone sitting on an armory?

2. What's up with the assumption that guns are an easy target? People with guns often have a gun safe. Or the guns are hidden all over the house and would take a long time to find.

3. There's also the assumption of value. I have a lot of guns, but nothing of great value. If someone got them all, I doubt they're worth $2000, and many would be hard to turn into money.

4. In a typical day, I'll bet a UPS person delivers dozens of items that are far more lucrative, and goes to homes far more upscale than rolling the dice just because some regular guy buys a lot of ammo.

oneounceload
June 9, 2011, 10:59 AM
I said I'm concerned about getting robbed because he knows I have all this ammo I ordered recently, not that I'm worried about him stealing my packages

And just about everyone has stated you are making a mountain out of a molehill, except you're not getting the sympathy you were wanting.

Let's try this again: MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING.

If you are truly that scared and paranoid, buy a mountain top and fortify it

natman
June 9, 2011, 01:00 PM
I'll say AGAIN. Not worried about the guy stealing the package here...
OK, fine. If you are really that worried about the UPS guy knowing that you have ammo, have it shipped somewhere other than your house. Yes that will be a hassle, but how much is your OPSEC worth to you?

Just don't take it out on the individual UPS driver.

Average Joe
June 10, 2011, 11:17 PM
He looks at you funny, because that stuff is heavy.....I bet he cringes every time he sees your address on his list.....

CZguy
June 11, 2011, 01:45 AM
Yep we're all saying the same thing. Let's all just let this one wither away.

Dulvarian
June 11, 2011, 03:02 AM
I'm usually at work when the deliveries come in, and every UPS or Fedex delivery person has been kind enough to carry the rather heavy packages inside the door so my wife doesn't have to pick them up off the porch.

Not concerned. Every single one of my neighbors has seen me loading rifle case after rifle case and ammo box after ammo box into my truck. I really don't worry that they are going to do anything. Not the neighbors or the delivery guy. Seriously. Pick a target. High dollar electronics or large scale orders or ammunition. Which would seem a softer target to go back for? If I was of the mind to do such a thing, the guy ordering 1,000 rounds of ammo or more a month would be the LAST person that I would think of heading back to. Risk vs. reward in this case is very high.

I worry a hell of a lot more about a no-knock warrant being served to the wrong address than I do about being targeted by neighbors and delivery men.

Superpsy
June 11, 2011, 08:44 AM
This went off the rails quickly.

fbernar
June 11, 2011, 11:06 AM
If i read the term opsec one more time i might come and rob u myself. Let this thread die already. Lol.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

buck460XVR
June 11, 2011, 11:15 AM
If i read the term opsec one more time i might come and rob u myself.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa130/challamala2/funny/rofl.jpg

weeniewawa
June 11, 2011, 12:00 PM
did he look like this guy?

I wouldn't worry, most UPS guys have so many drops on their routes that they will run to their trucks as even one minute extra wasted time at each stop will mean an hour extra in their day. they get so over loaded with drops and picks they sometimes seem rude but it is not their fault

http://www.weeniewawa.com/default/snidely_whiplash_working_on_laptop.gif

Toforo
June 11, 2011, 01:39 PM
I don't ever recall getting ammunition in a box marked with the word "ammunition" or an ammo manufacturer's name (Winchester, Blazer, Federal, Fiocchi, etc) shipped to my home.

Even reloading components (such as lead bullets) aren't marked as to what's inside.

(but maybe I order mine from different places)

I get boxes from MidWay, Grafs, Cabellas, BassPro, Gander Mountain, Able, Natchez, and many others - but none of them that I get have anything "gun related" printed on the outside of the box.

Well actually, I don't RECEIVE ammo from MidWay, I just drive the two miles there to pick it up after my phone order, but none of their boxes say anything about ammo on them... Just MidWay.

(but MAN'oh'MAN you should see the caravan of "Brown" trucks there, and LOTS of those drivers have sour looks and moustaches! OH MY)

Good thing I can "carry" there....

azmjs
June 11, 2011, 03:01 PM
You've got to get the jump on him and then demand to see his driver's license, then take a picture of it with your cell phone or digital camera.

Jorg Nysgerrig
June 11, 2011, 08:18 PM
It seems like this one has more than run its course.

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