[otomik]

with all of this talk about the possible new XM8 Weapons system, which includes a 10-inch barreled PDW version i'm wondering what's going to happen to the role of the military pistol. the M4 isn't even that small and it was given to many vehicle crewmembers as a replacement for the M9, an M8 PDW would replace a lot more M9s.

will we be limited to 9mm?
we don't work as closely with NATO anymore since the fall of communism. will .40 or even .45 come back or will we go to some armor penetrating sub-calibre?

smaller and compact like the makarov or larger and more user friendly like the HK MP7?

[Dorian]

I can only hope it will be a .45.

I have read two different after action reporst from recent military actions and everyone who owned and used a 9mm said that it simply wasn't enough.

My hopes are for the HK USP .45 :)

[Dorian]

Also... why do you call it the XM12?

[otomik]

XM9 trials resulted in the M9 or the Beretta 92FS
then there was some contraversy that resulted in the XM10 trials
a need for a compact 9mm resulted in the XM11 trials and the M11 or SIG P-228
so XM12 is the next available US military pistol stock number (i think).

[otomik]

i know someone is going to say it so why don't i just get it out of the way.

1911

something like a Wilson Combat KZ-45 would be suitable. perhaps with an Para-Ordnance style double action only trigger. It would overcome some of the problems the army had with the 1911 (too heavy, not idiot-proof).

Still i wonder if people are going to have a problem with lack of penetration and frankly even in FMJ .45ACP sucks against body armor. OTOH perhaps all these sub-caliber armor-piercing pistol cartridges are anticipating a problem that has yet to arrive (gun companies exagerating the proliferation of body armor problem in an effort to sell new equipment?).

Food for thought: the french gendarmerie just ordered 230,000 SIG SP-2022 (basically a SIG Pro 9mm with better rails and hooked trigger guard), the largest single order for a pistol since WWII.

[Alfadog]

Food for thought: the french gendarmerie just ordered 230,000 SIG SP-2022

Great! We can look forward to lots of surplus French handguns--never been fired, only been dropped once!

[Couldn't resist.]

[Andrew Wyatt]

it needs to be a sig in .40 or .45 for the every day infantryman guys, and a 1911 for the guys who shoot pistols for a living. There also needs to be a 9mm or .40 j frame issued to every combat arms soldier, airman or marine.

[voilsb]

Maybe this guy will be the XM12: .50GI in a 1911 (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=732213)

[stiletto raggio]

Okay, the M8 is basically a G36, and the "PDW" is a G36K. Not quite a PDW in my mind. As a future tanker, I hope we adopt the HK PDW that fires the 4.6 mm spoontipped round.

HK is building a factory in the US...

I thinkt he USP .45 is simply too large for an "everyone" pistol. My dad has one, and it is on the verge of too big for me (6'3", 245)

I am really hoping for single stack Glock 10mm. .40 level loads for people who can't handle the real stuff, and DoubleTap 200 grain FMJs for badasses. The girp would be slimmer than a 1911, it would be reliable, safe, not complex, lightweight and plenty powerful.

[Nightcrawler]

As a future tanker, I hope we adopt the HK PDW that fires the 4.6 mm spoontipped round.

Why?

[Jeff White]

But there is no program to replace the M9. There is a trend to 1911 type pistols in certain units, but the big army (Navy, Marines and AF) will continue to use the M9 and M11 for the immediate future.

PDWs are a solution looking for a problem. Too big to be as easily carried as conventional handguns and too under powered to be useful as a carbine. The 4.7 rounds have unsatisfactory terminal effects.

Jeff

[Badger Arms]

Technically, it's a carbine. It would receive, perhaps, an M5 designation? Without a stock, they might classify it as a submachinegun along the lines of the Grease Gun. That would make it the, hehehe, M4 submachine gun! How's that for confusion. It would be almost as bad as having the M1 rifle and M1 Carbine with no relationship to each other.

[stiletto raggio]

Because it is accurate, controllable, will defeat body armor, and thw whole package weighs something like 2 ounces more than a loaded Beretta. I still want a real weapon (M2), but it beats the hell out of a 9mm that is less than reliable.

[Dorian]

I forgot to say the USP compact for people with smaller hands, to go along with the fullsized USPs. :D

Also Otomik... I ask why you said M12 cause the next battle rifle is going to be the M8....... How do you get M8 after M16?

Maybe it's going up from M4? I don't know.

[stiletto raggio]

Also, designation does not necessarily prgress numerically. Otherwise, how did we ever end up at the M249 SAW, the M240B and C, or the M1 tank?

[Andrew Wyatt]

forgot to say the USP compact for people with smaller hands

USP compacts are just as thick as the full sized USP. people with smaller hands have just as much trouble with them.


Who got the idea that chopping a half inch off the butt of a pistol that's too thick makes it more suitable for the small handed?

[T.Stahl]

The PDW is the smallest package that "might get the job done".
Why not choose the most powerful package that you can carry?

This reminds me of thread-titles that ask "What's the smallest caliber suitable for deer?" instead of "What's the most effective caliber/weapon combo for deer that I can still comfortably carry around and shoot?"

Sucessfully engaging the enemy with an MP7/HK PDW at 200m is unrealistic. And at 25m I'd want much more stopping power than a 26gr bullet with less energy than a 9x19 can offer.
If I'd be a tanker I wouldn't want anything less than a G36C or even a G3KA4 (ammo commonality with coax and AA).

[Andrew Wyatt]

now that's not a bad idea. issue those beltfed mp53 thingers that Fjvollmer used to make to tankers.

you don't even need to delink the rounds and load them into magazines.

[stiletto raggio]

The thing is this: these are not really intended for use in combat. If I want to kill somehting in combat, I'll use my 120mm, my .50 or either of the two 240s. We already carry a conversion kit that allows us to change the loader's gun form a 240C to a 240B if we need serious portable firepower.

The PDW would not replace the M4s, M8s, etc. It would replace the Berettas. Sorry, but 100 rounds of 4.6 mm, which can be fired accurately to 100m at least, beats teh hell out of 45 rounds of 9mm, which has inferior wound ballistics givne the 115 grain FMJ bullet.

As soon as I can pull rank, I think I will just throw a SAW in the basket with a few cans of 5.56 and call it even. I love that weapon...

[Jeff White]

stilletto raggio,

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000050.html

Read this thread, including the links and then tell me if you still want a 4.6 or 5.7mm PDW. I think your best bet is to try to secure an M4 for every crew member.

Jeff

[T.Stahl]

The thing is this: these are not really intended for use in combat.
Yeah, and the M4 Sherman was not intended to be used against German tanks...

Too bad that American tankers couldn't sue the high command or the manufacturer when they had to use their Sherman for fighting tanks.

WHEN do you think you'd have to use your personal weapon instead of your tanks M256/M2/M240? I'd guess when you have been hit by an anti-tank team. What will you then use your MP7 for? For fighting your way out of an anti-tank team's killing zone. Something I'd call combat.

[stiletto raggio]

Okay, I am not sure which Army youa re thinking of, but tanks do not cruise around on their own. I open terrain, it is a minimum of a platoon, yes, four tanks, operating together. If your tank is disabled in such terrain, where exactly are you supposed to fight your way to? I think I'd rather sit tight, call for fire, and have my compadres whip up on the anti-tank team.

In a city, tanks go nowhere without infantry.

I am not saying I would not prefer M4s for everyone, but it isn't going to happen. I would certainly prefer the PDW to an M9.

[355sigfan]

It should be a Glock 17.
Pat

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

I think combat tupperware is inevitable. Weight, reliability, simplicity, maintenance. Question is the caliber. When I was in the .45 was king. I would not be comfortable with the 9mm. We need to grow some larger hands.

[Spark]

USP's with dual safety levers in .45.

[Andrew Wyatt]

USP's with dual safety levers in .45.


When we start growing 9 foot tall super soldiers with hands to match, that might be an option, but untill then, a normal human sized gun is in order.

[Spark]

Meh. Fits my hands just dandy. My fiance can shoot mine just dandy as well, and she wears a size 6 ring.

The current Beretta isn't tiny by a long shot. If we are going to keep size, we might as well have a decent caliber.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

My wife likes the Glock 21. She says it is a little big, but she can manage. And she also wore a uniform, woodland cam, 1 each.

[otomik]

i'd like to see the Beretta 92 series more PDWized. switch it to some 9mm sub-caliber conversion (lets call it 6x22mm Beretta). then give it a 3-round burst mode like the Beretta 93R for better stopping power and hit probability.

i'd also love to see a .45 in a 1911-style design. a squeeze-cocker like the P7, that would simplify controls for the grunts and still allow for an excellent trigger pull. internally it should be more like a SIG (browning-linkless with port to barrel locking action).

about giving an M4 to every tanker: M4 and the M16-series are too high maintenance for vehicle crews and support troops. jessica lynch's m16 was jammed and didn't even get a shot off before she was captured

[Dorian]

When we start growing 9 foot tall super soldiers with hands to match, that might be an option, but untill then, a normal human sized gun is in order.

I'm 5 foot 8 and have VERY small hands, and have never had a problem with a fullsized USP.

My hands are smaller than most girls hands I know.

I get all the meat I can behind the backstrap of the USP, and I still have enough length to pull the trigger.

I've heard a lot of complaints of the USP being too large, but i just don't get it or see it... Maybe it's in how people hold their pistols or something, but I can't see how the USP is too big :confused:

[natedog]

PDW's - a solution waiting to find a problem. Western Armies issue body armor...Asian armies (or terrorists) don't.

[vrwc]

RE:
PDW's - a solution waiting to find a problem. Western Armies issue body armor...Asian armies (or terrorists) don't.

The ruskies are tired of getting there butts handed to them by our tactics and bad for us good for them they are starting to emulate our tactics (including body armor). The ruskies have figured out that our most dangerous weapon are our NCO's and Junior Officers who have a lot of training, and just from a cost standpoint not even counting morale it pays to protect your most valauble weapons. Once the ruskies adopt something it will trickle down to the chi-coms ect. all. Those who wish to do us harm are not stupid and will adapt.

RE:
Weapons for crew
Being a ground pounder (USMC MOS846) I wish I had at least 4 rifles and a pack mule it would be hard to pick one for the various sticky situations one would encounter, however if I was a tank crew member and had to pick I would chose the following in order:
Current:
1. M4A2 with m203
3. AK-47 tanker version :)
2. MP5N
2. SOCOM Mk23

Future:
the XM8 with 9" barrel sounds about perfect in this role 21" overall same ammo as your infantry (the logistics of havving one ammo type is a huge adavantage)

[Jeff White]

What's an M4A2 and MP5N?

Jeff

[355sigfan]

What's an M4A2 and MP5N?
END Quote

An M4A2 is a M16/AR15 with a 14.5 inch barrel a carry handle with selector switch for semi auto and three shot burst. A MP5N is MP5 a german submachine gun with the navy firing group which I believe is semi auto, two shot burst and full auto.
Pat

[vrwc]

M4A2 is the full auto 14.5"bbl m16 variant M4A1 is a 3rd burst 14.5"bbl m16 variant
MP5N is a hk mp-5

[vrwc]

i may be wrong on the m4a1/2/3 is the a2 full auto i think it was or it could be the a3? I know for a fact that the m4a1 is semi/3rd burst

[355sigfan]

If you really want to know I can tell you later when I look though my Colt Armorer's material. There are so many variations its hard to keep them strait.
Pat

[vrwc]

Just a followup on state of mind on this post. To me and a few current/retired service members that I knew(there as many different opinions and there are stars) A pistol in a combat application is a last ditch item to buy time to secure a rifle :) now home defense and LE are most likely different situations but when faced with RPG/12.7mm/7.62 fire/80mm/ect exchanges giving back 9mm in exchange is not all that fun

[vrwc]

355sig,
I think the A2 is full auto with carry handle, where the a3 is a 'flattop' with rail, if you have access to the info I would be interestd to find out for sure

[355sigfan]

I don't have it handy right now but I will get it later today say in about 5 or 6 hours.
Pat

[Jeff White]

There is no such thing as an M4A2. The M4 is safe-semi-burst, the M4A1 is safe-semi-auto. Colts may catalog a commerical M4A2 but there is no such military designation.

Detachable carry handle has nothing to do with the military designations for the M4. The first M4s had fixed carry handles, but that was changed not too long after they started aquiring them in quantity. I've never seen M4A2 listed anywhere, but then I'm not up on all the Colt commericial designations.

I'd never seen the Navy version of the MP5 designated MP5N, but that was my guess.

Jeff

[vrwc]

Jeff,
I am pretty sure you are correct on that looking back now

[natedog]

M-16A2 is safe-semi-burst with a fixed handle. M-16A1 is safe-semi-auto with a fixed handle. M-16A3 isn't a military designation, but usually in civilian circles the "A-3" means a flat top AR-15. The M-16A4 is safe-semi-burt with a flattop.

[Jeff White]

natedog,
The military would be surprised to learn that the M16A3 isn't a military designation. According to TM9-1005-319-23&P, the M16A3 is identical to the M16A2 except it has a safe-semi-auto trigger group. That said, I have no idea how many M16A3s exist or even who uses them. I enquired a few years back and all I could find out was that the Navy had procured some.

Jeff

[Marko Kloos]

jessica lynch's m16 was jammed and didn't even get a shot off before she was captured


PFC Lynch's M-16 never got a shot off because its operator nearly brained herself on the dash of the Humvee in which she was a passenger. They rear-ended one of their own trucks in the beginning of the ambush, and PFC Lynch was unconscious through the whole event.

On the issue of an XM12...let's send all those newfangled smokeless cartridge bottomfeeders back to Italy, and re-issue the tried-and-true Colt M1873. Talk about going to war in style.

Sidearms are such peripheral pieces of equipment for most soldiers that it hardly matters what the Army puts in the holsters of tankers and MPs. M9, M11, or M1911...they're all poor fighting tools when compared to rifle, GPMG, or tank gun.