Another ATF fumble in Mexico


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Sediment
June 9, 2011, 04:32 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/06/08/weapons-arsenal-found-in-mexico-contains-guns-from-us-probe/

An arsenal found in Mexico included at least five assault rifles that U.S authorities trace to a federal operation gone badly awry, according to government documents.

The discovery appears to confirm for the first time fears cited by Republican lawmakers that a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operation called Fast and Furious failed to stop guns from ending up with drug gangs in Mexico.


Sorry if this has been already discussed. Mods please remove if it is a repost.

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ATBackPackin
June 9, 2011, 08:01 AM
As disturbing as these operations were, what I find even more disturbing is that there is hardly anyone reporting it. This should be in every newspaper and on every news show until solved.

However they do not report it, not because it isn't news worthy, but because it doesn't further their agenda.

Despicable

TexasRifleman
June 9, 2011, 08:06 AM
Well they will just have that much more to explain during the hearings.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=596674

This incident will make it much harder for ATF to claim it's not a widespread problem.

M-Cameron
June 9, 2011, 08:13 AM
how much you wanna bet they are going to somehow use the ATFs screw up to try and pass another assault weapons law......

"well...you see..... if assault weapons arent available, then the ATF wouldnt have had any to give to drug dealers....makes perfect sense!"

Sky
June 9, 2011, 09:29 AM
I hope they dig deep into the problem. Gulfstream private jet crashed full of coke was traced back to DEA and other agencies. Maybe some sections of the government are doing a little more than running some semi autos.
"Mexican Narco-Trafficker’s Revelation Exposes Drug War’s Duplicity" was written by Bill Conroy and posted on "The Narcosphere web sight".

Trail of Government Intrigue Leads Back to Cocaine Jet That Crashed in Mexico’s Yucatan

BRIEF EXCERT:
A high-level player with one of the most notorious narco-trafficking organizations in Mexico, the Sinaloa “cartel,” claims that he has been working with the U.S. government for years, according to pleadings filed recently in federal court in Chicago.

That player, Jesus Vicente Zambada Niebla, is the son of Ismael “El Mayo” Zambada Garcia — one of the purported top leaders of the Sinaloa drug-trafficking organization. Zambada Niebla was arrested in Mexico in March 2009 and last February extradited to the United States to stand trial on narco-trafficking-related charges.

The indictment pending against Zambada Niebla claims he served as the “logistical coordinator” for the “cartel,” helping to oversee an operation that imported into the U.S. “multi-ton quantities of cocaine … using various means, including but not limited to, Boeing 747 cargo aircraft, private aircraft … buses, rail cars, tractor trailers, and automobiles.”

Trail of Government Intrigue Leads Back to Cocaine Jet That Crashed in Mexico’s Yucatan

Probably just some conspiracy and will be labeled as such.

From Wachovia’s deferred prosecution agreement:

… Using false identities, the CDC [wired money] through its Wachovia correspondent bank accounts for the purchase of airplanes for drug trafficking organizations. On various dates between 2004 and 2007, at least four of those airplanes [including, according to Mexican officials, the Gulfstream II cocaine jet with CIA ties] were seized by foreign law enforcement agencies cooperating with the United States and were found to contain large quantities of cocaine.

… In total, nearly $13 million dollars went through correspondent bank accounts at Wachovia for the purchase of aircraft to be used in the illegal narcotics trade. From these aircraft, more than 20,000 kilograms of cocaine were seized.

... From September 2005 to December 2007, Wachovia provided correspondent banking services to 22 CDCs [casa de cambios], including Casa de Cambio Puebla [which was overseen by Damy].

… For the time period of May 1, 2004, through May 31, 2007, Wachovia processed at least $373 billion in wire activity on behalf of the CDCs.

… The investigation has identified $110 million in drug proceeds that were funneled through the CDC accounts held at Wachovia. [That represents only the money in the larger pool of $373 billion that could be proven to be drug proceeds.]

We are talking about some serious coinage here!

Standing Wolf
June 9, 2011, 10:10 AM
However they do not report it, not because it isn't news worthy, but because it doesn't further their agenda.

Pravda always stuck to its script, too. That's how it became one of the world's great newspapers.

Manco
June 9, 2011, 03:46 PM
how much you wanna bet they are going to somehow use the ATFs screw up to try and pass another assault weapons law......

"well...you see..... if assault weapons arent available, then the ATF wouldnt have had any to give to drug dealers....makes perfect sense!"

I'd go further than that--I think it's the express goal they have in mind, namely manufacturing a pretext for the government to deny our Second Amendment rights. Why else would they be involved?

We should turn the tables on them and support gun control legislation that keeps firearms out of the hands of the ATF specifically. It would never work, but it would make a lot more sense (they don't think that we need guns, so they should try to set a good example for us ;)).

Sky
June 9, 2011, 07:23 PM
Wow where's a sue happy lawyer when you need one!! Great idea. hahaha

Zoogster
June 9, 2011, 09:51 PM
The intent of the ATF was to add a large number of guns to the illegal trade that they could show were in fact going from the civilian US gun market to the cartels.
The majority of the illegal guns used by the Cartels were US firearms sold to the Mexican government through legal channels, which then ended up in the hands of cartels through police and military sources.
While a large portion of the more limited civilian sourced illegally smuggled firearms that did in fact get smuggled went to regular Mexicans not tied to cartels that wanted firearms they could not acquire in Mexico. (Who wouldn't want effective firearms in Mexico at this point?)
Something both the cartels and the Mexican government don't like, armed civilians add an extra dimension to controlling and intimidating them.


The result of most guns found in cartel stashes being untraceable to the US civilian market was the ATF program. In order to prove that civilian gun sales are in fact a problem they helped to insure civilian guns entered the trade and they could then document that such firearms were a problem when uncovered and traced later.
To accomplish this there was programs like the 'gunwalker' referenced one, where they told FFLs they couldn't even refuse sales even when they wanted, like when a suspicious person ordered large numbers of the same exact model firearm.
Firearm sales that would have normally been stopped were ordered to be allowed to proceed, greatly increasing the success of that source of firearms to Mexico.



Unfortunately in many posters zeal to highlight the involvement of the ATF you are missing an important aspect. They succeeded in demonstrating a flow of civilian guns to illegal users in Mexico.
If they were not in hot water, or even after they cease to be, they will still be able to point out that such firearms did in fact go to bad people in Mexico.
Demonstrating the very problem the wanted to show after all:
Firearms sold in the US do in fact make it to people that use them in bad ways, including the Cartels. (Which then implies a gun control solution is necessary.)

So highlighting this is a double edged sword. Yes it makes the ATF look bad, but it also demonstrates the flow of guns from FFLs to cartels, making the point the ATF wanted after all.

mr.trooper
June 9, 2011, 10:40 PM
Not if the flow is artificial.

Zoogster
June 9, 2011, 11:16 PM
But the purchasers and users were not artificial. The ATF merely went out of their way to insure the purchasers that already existed (and so would have been attempting without them) were never denied and were always successful in obtaining large quantities of firearms and getting them to Mexico.
They also went above and beyond that in actually helping some get across the border it appears, but that does not diminish that there was a people trying to get guns into the hands of cartels through civilian sources.
Which was what the ATF wanted to prove, and so stacked the deck to insure they could by engaging in the conduct that they are now in trouble for.


Since most illegal cartel guns were from Mexican government sources, contrary to many claims it was US civilian guns (which the Mexican government and the cartels don't want getting to Mexican citizens) the ATF tried to increase the perceived civilian source problem.
The agency wanted to prove its value by showing there is in fact a problem with civilian guns going to Mexico, even though they were having trouble doing so with traces. So they added more civilian guns to the market that would be traced back to the US civilian market when found in Mexico, and they could also see where and who got them and know the logistics of how they get from point A to B by taking part in it.
Thinking like a government agency that wants funding and job security along with great discretionary means, they wanted to then have these guns seized in caches and traced to civilian sources.
They could then confidently declare the problem was obviously huge, and so they would need more resources to fight it, along with perhaps additional gun control.

The only problem was they got into trouble when their role in getting the guns from point A to B became public.

Tommygunn
June 9, 2011, 11:33 PM
But the purchasers and users were not artificial. The ATF merely went out of their way to insure the purchasers that already existed (and so would have been attempting without them) were never denied and were always successful in obtaining large quantities of firearms and getting them to Mexico.

While this is true, it doesn't really absolve the ATF of their incompetence in this operation. Also, while there is certainly some trafficking of American guns, that fact should not be allowed to be used to allow the government to futher curtail American rights. It is no more justified to abbreviate the 2nd amendment because criminals transport a minority of cartel guns from America than it should be acceptable to ban a kind of handgun because a few bankrobbers might choose them to commit their crimes.
That's the real problem.

Twiki357
June 10, 2011, 12:57 AM
According to FOX News, ATF is supposed to be in front of a congressional committee on Wednesday 6/15 for the gun runner fiasco.

Good&Fruity
June 10, 2011, 01:14 AM
Sounds like they were trying to find a reason to have guns banned here, by making the guns involved in the violence there appear to be coming from general US sales.

ATBackPackin
June 10, 2011, 08:31 AM
Unfortunately in many posters zeal to highlight the involvement of the ATF you are missing an important aspect. They succeeded in demonstrating a flow of civilian guns to illegal users in Mexico.



And you are missing that most of those sales would have been denied had it not been for the ATF's involvement. Those dealers knew that these were straw purchases and were going to deny them until the ATF insisted that they allowed them. I think the ATF and the DOJ wanted to show a flow of civilian guns to illegal users in Mexico.

I am not trying to insinuate that no guns have ever been illegally taken across the border, but I do not believe they are even close to the numbers that they want us believe they are.

Shawn

Deanimator
June 10, 2011, 11:09 AM
But the purchasers and users were not artificial. The ATF merely went out of their way to insure the purchasers that already existed (and so would have been attempting without them) were never denied and were always successful in obtaining large quantities of firearms and getting them to Mexico.
The overriding factor is that the BATFE SUBVERTED the EXISTING law to ENSURE that guns got into Mexico illegally. That's like your local Dept. of Children and Family Services telling day care centers to ignore the criminal background checks on NAMBLA members applying for jobs to work with children.

This behavior on the part of an agency with a decades long history of mercilessly going after citizens for minor technical infractions, or indeed "infractions" for which there are no specific elements of the offense, is UTTERLY despicable.

Somebody DIED because of willful criminal acts on the part of BATF employees. Lives, careers and finances need to be DESTROYED over this. I know it's too much to ask that people go to jail for this despicable conduct, especially given the current leadership of the DoJ, but people need to pay an AWFUL price.

And don't believe a WORD coming from official sources in the BATFE. Remember, they're the guys who put out an OFFICIAL training video on HOW TO LIE UNDER OATH.

Deanimator
June 10, 2011, 11:14 AM
I am not trying to insinuate that no guns have ever been illegally taken across the border, but I do not believe they are even close to the numbers that they want us believe they are.
Child molesters have scammed their way into teaching and childcare positions. That's WAY different from the government TELLING pre-schools to HIRE them.

What the BATFE did is the equivalent of that, and equally indefensible.

230RN
June 10, 2011, 11:59 AM
Somebody DIED because of willful criminal acts...

Gee, I think in some states, that's a murder rap.

Deanimator
June 10, 2011, 12:08 PM
Gee, I think in some states, that's a murder rap.
"Felony murder" at the least.

I certainly hope that somebody in these hearings contrasts the treatment of citizens by the BATFE with the BATFE's own conduct. After all, you can be arrested for "engaging in the business of selling firearms without an FFL"... of course without there being any fixed criteria for what CONSTITUTES a "business".

Apparently, it's the opinion of the BATFE that buying and selling a few handguns with no evidence of criminal intent in a few months is a "crime", but that DELIBERATELY supplying firearms to KNOWN criminals ISN'T.

You simply can't run out of bad things to say about the BATFE, and THEY supply the basis for EVERY one of them.

Carl N. Brown
June 10, 2011, 01:02 PM
Uh. it seems like a month ago the Latin American Herald Tribune out of Caracas reported that 1,200 "Fast and Furious" guns made it across the border out of ~ 2,400. That may be a drop in the bucket compared to wholesale smuggling of military weapons from places like Guatemala but its an unnecessary addition to the cartels' arsenals.

The US dealers cooperating with the ATF on "Gunwalker" had qualms and repeatedly asked ATF for assurance the guns were being interdicted and not ending up in criminal hands. That point is ignored in US mainstream media coverage.

The US news media was blatantly pro-gun control, anti-gun rights in the 1960s heyday of Senator Thomas Dodd & the mail order gun hoopla, and have not changed since then: support for gun control appears to be a litmus test for a job in mainstream media and it will only be the alternate news sources who will try to get the facts on this story.

230RN
June 14, 2011, 03:22 PM
...support for gun control appears to be a litmus test for a job in mainstream media and it will only be the alternate news sources who will try to get the facts on this story.

Boy, you got that right. It's so hypocritical when they claim to be "reporters" yet consistently commit lies by omission to toe to the party line.

To me, the formerly honorable and esteemed profession of "Journalist" has decayed to below the status of dogcatcher.

Terry, 230RN

michael5446
June 14, 2011, 04:48 PM
from the sources around here there were approx 1800 ebr's that were tagged for gps tracking and sold through legal firearm resellers at the atf's request... they tried to encourage bulk sales as well as straw buyer puchases to see where the guns wood go... the atf lost track, citizens and border patrol agents have died, and these guns showed up at the crime scenes... drug cartels are not stupid and this was a bad idea....

a failure in my eyes, who is going to be held accountable for this one while the feds continue to play with our lives?

Heretic
June 15, 2011, 01:21 PM
Simple answer, no one will be held accountable. The stats created by this operation will be parroted for years to come. No one will ever criticize the means where anyone can hear. This will be used to create more hysteria about guns in general.

It's up to us to inform our friends, neighbors, or anyone who will listen, because the media won't.

I intend to e-mail all of the TV stations in my area repeatedly, I would ask all of you to do the same.

elcaminoariba
June 16, 2011, 07:13 PM
Link doesn't work. I'm getting "The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later." Fox is NOT pro 2nd amendment by the way.

Tommygunn
June 16, 2011, 07:20 PM
Fox is NOT pro 2nd amendment by the way.

I need a cite. "Fox" is a business entity. I don't know what the "policy" of the business is -- or even if they have one with regards to the 2A, but they have both conservative and liberal pundits on.
Sean Hannity, a conservative, pretty much supports the 2A.
Alan Colmes, a wild-eyed kool-aid embibing liberal, does not.
So, to whom (or what) are you refering?

elcaminoariba
June 17, 2011, 01:08 AM
Hannity supports the 2nd amendment? since when? He stays so silent on the issue we can hear crickets. Colmes stays pretty silent on the 2nd amendment too, although I've heard him give lip service support to it (while calling for "sensible" gun control of course) which makes him pretty close to the same as hannity when it comes to the 2nd am. Fox pretends to be "conservative" yet that network seems to have a silence policy on the 2nd amendment.

Tommygunn
June 17, 2011, 10:45 AM
Hannity supports the 2nd amendment? since when? He stays so silent on the issue we can hear crickets. Colmes stays pretty silent on the 2nd amendment too, although I've heard him give lip service support to it (while calling for "sensible" gun control of course) which makes him pretty close to the same as hannity when it comes to the 2nd am.

Hannity's show is "event driven." That is, they discuss social/political topics and events that are currently being discussed in the MSM. If a major gun control issue were to come up, it would be discussed, but Hannity, Limbaugh, et al, do not do "topic of the day" type programs. So far there have been really few 2A issues in the news.
Just because Fox "seems to have a silence policy on the 2nd amendment" doesn't mean they are, or or not, conservative -- it means they, too, don't do a "topic of the day" type program.
BTW, I've NEVER heard Colmes issue any statement of support for the 2A, and I think I'd be so surprised if he did I might have a heart attack. Juan Williams is a Fox News talking head liberal, and sometimes makes really whacky statements. Same with geraldo Rivera. There are a few others that are the same, but Alan Colmes has really swallowed the kool aid. The guy's totally lib-nutz!
As far as Hannity, I don't listen to him very often, there are other characteristics he has which turn me off about him, but he has supported the right to keep and bear arms on a few of his radio programs I've heard.
I don't think it's really fair to judge a network on the issue based solely (or nearly so) on how often they issue a statement of support for a ceretain Constitutional amendment.

Just for the record, I think Fox has been a fairly conservative network throughout much of its history, and has in recent years brought on more liberals as hosts (like Geraldo & Juan Williams) in an effort to be more even handed. Just my two cents; YMMV.

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