Okey, they have this new .300 Blackout Subsonic


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nathan
June 9, 2011, 03:36 PM
I would rather go for the cheap 7.62 x 39 Russian ammo than makng a goliath out of david. They have their uses though so be it.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=ACMMG300BLKSUB

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R.W.Dale
June 9, 2011, 04:13 PM
It has it's application

Having BTDT I can honestly say that 7.62x39 doesn't really work that well in an ar15 simply due to the case shape. 300blk uses a very common piece of brass, STD bolts and 5.56mags loaded with as many rounds as will fit.

Look at it this way 300blk isn't about matching x39 performance. It's about matching x39 performance IN THE AR15 and have it run like it's supposed to. And that's no small market since quite literally the ar platform is Americas levergun for the 21'st century


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Girodin
June 9, 2011, 04:15 PM
Sub sonic 300 AC blackout ammo has a different purpose than cheap Russian ammo. A better comparison would be subsonic 7.62 x39 ammo. As for comparing x39 to 300 blackout generally that is a different discussion. As has been stated it is largely about having a round that is better suited for a particular magazine and platform.

wally
June 9, 2011, 04:28 PM
Just what we need, another ~$1/round odd ball cartridge. Hey if it floats your boat, go for it! At least you won't need new magazines!

Do these Blackout uppers have some kind of gas regulator? 7.62x39 sub sonic doesn't generally cycle an AK and AK are generally way over gassed compared to ARs.

Maybe if I had a suppressor it'd be a bit more interesting.

Unistat
June 9, 2011, 04:43 PM
The .300 BLK was created to use with suppressors, where it is supposed to really shine. It makes sense considering it was developed by a company that make suppressors, Advanced Armement Corp.

This particular round has a better chance of succeeding in the market in my opinion. AAC is owned by the Freedom Group which also own Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, Marlin, and Barnes. Those are some big names that can provide platforms and market penetration. Still, if it isn't of interest to the market it will fail, this just gives it critical exposure.

highlander 5
June 9, 2011, 07:36 PM
I have a 300 Blackout upper and it works fine with the Remington 220 gr subsonic loads.

wally
June 9, 2011, 10:49 PM
I have a 300 Blackout upper and it works fine with the Remington 220 gr subsonic loads.

How about full power super-sonic loads, or is the idea not to have the option.

C-grunt
June 9, 2011, 11:37 PM
They have a 123 grn round that does somewhere around 2300 FPS out of a 10 inch barrel.

Plus the only modification to a standard AR is a new barrel. Uses all the other same parts.

451 Detonics
June 10, 2011, 09:20 AM
The round ACC copied, the 300 Whisper, has been available for 20+ years. I have been shooting it for about 20 myself. As pointed out it was not made to compete with the 7.62X39...it's purpose is for use with heavy sub sonic rounds for use with a suppressor.

gotigers
June 10, 2011, 02:52 PM
from Wally:

Just what we need, another ~$1/round odd ball cartridge

I completely agree. $1/round. come on. Maybe after some rifles sale and production kicks up the price will fall. At least it is SAAMI.

Owen
June 10, 2011, 07:22 PM
The ammunition is specifically designed to give the gun enough gas to operate across the bullet weights. Or at least that's what Robert Silvers told me, when I chatted with him about it.

451 Detonics
June 10, 2011, 07:45 PM
At least it is SAAMI.

Meaning what? Do you believe that Cor Bon and Hornady (both voting members of SAAMI) don't do pressure testing before they release ammunition? SAAMI was a very useful tool years ago when it was founded as it created set standards for ammunition, not only standards of pressure but in case length, case diameter, other case specs, bullet diameter, etc. But to say "this" cartridge is SAAMI and "that" cartridge isn't is not really relevant today. Working pressure of various firearms has been well established and ammunition makers all pressure test their ammo during R&D. Even in the reloading realm I bet every load in a published manual has been pressure tested before the manual is published. JD Jones does pressure testing during the R&D of all the cartridges he has developed over the years, it would be foolhardy not to.

As for the $1.00 a round thing...how much do you pay for premium hunting ammunition? I bet it is at least a buck a round, for example Winchester Super-X 7.62X39 123gr SP is $25.00 a box of 20. In time I am sure there will be cheaper ball ammo offered in both the 300 Whisper as well as the ACC version. Both are very simple to reload as well.

LeonCarr
June 10, 2011, 09:08 PM
Why we have several threads going simutaneously on THR about the .300 Blackout being the greatest thing since sliced bread when it is a flat out knockoff of the .300 Whisper that has been around for over 20 years is beyond me.

Can somebody please explain?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

LiquidTension
June 10, 2011, 09:32 PM
Advertising, of course. If AAC had gone on a big .300 Whisper kick we'd be reading multiple simultaneous threads about it instead. Also the availability of factory loaded ammo from multiple sources including Remington is helpful.

The first thing I said after I fired a suppressed 300BLK was, "I must have this."

28lx
June 10, 2011, 10:05 PM
I found that an AR Carbine loaded with H-110 and 150 grain ballistic tips did an excellent job on Whitetails. Was very accurate also. I wish I had kept that one.

highlander 5
June 11, 2011, 12:57 PM
I haven't seen or been able to get any super sonic factory loads but the handloads that I made 110gr bullet behind a charge of 16 gr of H110/296 functioned perfectly.

W.E.G.
June 11, 2011, 01:02 PM
Active 11-page thread on this subject:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=547002&highlight=Blackout

SN13
June 12, 2011, 12:50 AM
The future of ar's is here! The ak!

451 Detonics
June 12, 2011, 12:03 PM
The AK will shoot a 240 grain bullet and manage sub MOA accuracy out of a suppressor? I did not know that.

Why we have several threads going simutaneously on THR about the .300 Blackout being the greatest thing since sliced bread when it is a flat out knockoff of the .300 Whisper that has been around for over 20 years is beyond me.

Well many people refuse to acknowledge it is a complete knock off and the gun rags add fuel to the fire. I have been shooting my Whisper for about 20 years now.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/rifles/whisper-1.jpg

Advertising, of course.

I think once Hornady starts shipping their 300 Whisper ammo you will see more on that caliber in the gun rags as well.

R.W.Dale
June 12, 2011, 05:11 PM
I don't know that id call the 300BLK a complete knockoff since to my understanding the chamber neck had been enlarged to facilitate much easier case forming from dirt common 223 5.56 cases.

IMO this is no small refinement


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451 Detonics
June 13, 2011, 06:17 AM
It is more complicated than forming 300 Whisper from .221 Fireball cases. The Whisper is a simple neck up and trim, the ACC .223 brass has to be shortened, necked up, trimmed, and possibly need inside neck reaming. As factory ammo is being made for both I would suspect having to make brass won't really be needed as factory brass will be available at some point.

LeonCarr
June 13, 2011, 09:11 PM
I wonder if JD's attorney knows about the .300 Ripoff I mean Blackout.

Sam Cade
June 13, 2011, 09:40 PM
Good golly, what a can on your rifle 451! Reflex?

rsilvers
June 14, 2011, 09:40 PM
I wonder if JD's attorney knows about the .300 Ripoff I mean Blackout.

The 300 Whisper(R) and 300 AAC BLACKOUT are both versions of the 300-221 Wildcat. 30 cals based on 223, 5.56mm, or 221 Fireball brass have been around since at least 1969 (see photo below from 1969).

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9296/icct3.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1981/eglint1t3b.jpg

The 300 Whisper is a proprietary version, while the 300 AAC BLACKOUT is the SAAMI standard version, for which anyone can make guns or ammo royalty-free.

Since Remington makes a 17 and 221 Fireball, the logical name would have been 300 Fireball. But, because several wildcat chambers existed with that name, SAAMI either would not have accepted it, or would have required the most conservative chamber - which would have limited performance. Likewise, there are several Whisper chambers - and if there was an attempt to make that a SAAMI standard - the most conservative one would have had to be selected - and that would result in lower velocity than the 300 AAC BLACKOUT - which was a clean-sheet approach to making an optimal 300-221.

SAAMI is necessary - not just for pressure testing, but to ensure compatibility with any gun and any ammo with the same cartridge name. Also, larger ammo companies like Remington won't load wildcats.

You can shoot Hornady 300 Whisper ammo in 300 AAC BLACKOUT chambers, but not the other way around - as 300 AAC BLACKOUT is hotter - so shooting that in a Whisper chamber would be like shooting 5.56mm in a 223 chamber, or like shooting 6.8 SPC-II in a 6.8 chamber.

About 45 companies have announced 300 AAC BLACKOUT products.

rsilvers
June 14, 2011, 09:47 PM
The round ACC copied, the 300 Whisper, has been available for 20+ years. I have been shooting it for about 20 myself. As pointed out it was not made to compete with the 7.62X39...it's purpose is for use with heavy sub sonic rounds for use with a suppressor.

The round is based on the Remington 221 Fireball, necked up to 30 cal - but with specific final dimensions to the brass and chamber.

It can shoot heavy subsonic rounds with a suppresser, but I see the single largest use to be AK-like ballistics without a suppressor - for hunting, LE, self-defense, and military use.

It has more energy from a 9 inch barrel than 5.56mm does from an M4. And you can deer hunt with it in states that do not allow 223 - and then use the same gun for home defense with 30 round mags.

kozak6
June 14, 2011, 10:29 PM
I don't have a suppressor. Why should I bother?

For a quarter or a third the cost, I'd be willing to struggle to make 7.62x39 work.

rsilvers
June 14, 2011, 10:36 PM
I tried. I could not get 762x39 to work. Bolts lasted about 200 rounds on average for me. True that was suppressed full auto. But maybe 1000 to 2000 rounds on a non suppressed gun.

R.W.Dale
June 14, 2011, 11:44 PM
I wonder if JD's attorney knows about the .300 Ripoff I mean Blackout.
The proprietary cartridge model is a complete and utter marketplace failure

If someone wants to come up with a cartridge idea and attempt to maintain a stranglehold on to provide overinflated profit margins they shouldn't cry when a slightly different patent free version comes out with aims to take over the market.

For a quarter or a third the cost, I'd be willing to struggle to make 7.62x39 work

realistically the 7.62x39 ar15 is a 5 round gun. Getting magazines to hold more than that AND FUNCTION is a total crapshoot


I still predict that IF this cartridge makes it to widespread notoriety it won't do so in the suppressed role, it will do so in the hands of deer hunters using it in the same role as you would a 357 mag carbine

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