Which lever action for home defense?


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RonDeer10mm
June 9, 2011, 08:22 PM
I want to buy a lever action for home defense in .357 mag. Ive been looking at the Rossi 92 and Marlins, does anyone have anything to say about the quality of Rossi? Are there any other good options?
Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?:what:

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briansmithwins
June 9, 2011, 08:28 PM
Not to derail your thread, but I consider pistol caliber carbines to be range toys. Fun range toys, but toys all the same.

For the expense, weight and bulk of that weapon I'd get a carbine that fires a real rifle cartridge any day of the week.

It's not that .357 Mag is carp, but when compared to any centerfire rifle cartridge it's downright anemic.

BSW

Jason_W
June 9, 2011, 08:34 PM
Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?

In an 18.5" Marlin a 125grain factory Remington JSP round will hit 2200 f/s at the muzzle. Muzzle energy is 1343 ft/lbs.

Compared to a .223 62 grain round with a MV of 3000 f/s, you get 1238 ft/lbs of ME.

RonDeer10mm
June 9, 2011, 08:36 PM
From Buffalo Bores website
357 Mag - 125 gr. Barnes XPB @ 2145 fps from Marlin 1894 (18" barrel)around 1230 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Doesn't look so anemic to me.

PO2Hammer
June 9, 2011, 08:42 PM
I think there's a lot more to home defense than energy figures. I think the .357 would be plenty potent at any plausible defensive range.

On the downside, they are slow to load, it would pretty much have to be kept loaded.

My older Rossi .357 was very nice, my friend has a newer one on .45 Colt that I love to shoot, he has no complaints.

Ballistics by the inch. (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html)

jdh
June 9, 2011, 08:43 PM
Brian,
I live in a 900 sf apartment in a high rise. Still think a "real rifle cartridge" is the best choice? And just how far up the food chain do we have to go to get to a "real rifle cartridge"?

bigfatdave
June 9, 2011, 08:44 PM
2" to 18" results here:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Badlander
June 9, 2011, 08:54 PM
I live in a 900 sf apartment in a high rise. Still think a "real rifle cartridge" is the best choice? And just how far up the food chain do we have to go to get to a "real rifle cartridge"?






I think A handgun or shotgun would be better choices in your home.

Or call security.:D

RonDeer10mm
June 9, 2011, 08:56 PM
I don't want a shotgun.

JerryM
June 9, 2011, 08:57 PM
I'd go with the Marlin. However, a rifle is not as easily manipulated as a handgun, and is not so convenient. If I were going to use a long gun as a home defense gun it would be a shotgun.

Jerry

Badlander
June 9, 2011, 08:58 PM
Then buy the Marlin! the hands down winner.

RonDeer10mm
June 9, 2011, 09:00 PM
I was thinking about getting the Mossberg 930 SPX but my budget right now doesn't allow it but maybe later on.

briansmithwins
June 9, 2011, 09:04 PM
5.56 with a light jacketed varmint bullet is less likely to over penetrate if you miss than a thicker jacketed .357 slug. Even drywall starts the varmint loads breaking up.

I in similar circumstances. My AK is loaded with 124gr Vmax from Hornandy. Best compromise I know of between power, overpentration, and utility.

BSW

TempestP226
June 9, 2011, 09:08 PM
Don't know anything about the Rossi's, but if the Marlin 357 is built anything like my 30-30, get it. Most solid lever action I've ever laid hands on.

HenrySwift
June 9, 2011, 09:09 PM
Get something in 45 colt and not 357 magnum. There are a better home defense ammo options in 45 colt, the right round will also minimize wall penetration, and its hella fun to shoot at the range. It is also not a problem to leave it loaded.

my two.

HS

Rossi's are great rifles BTW.

_N4Z_
June 9, 2011, 09:55 PM
My HD lever is a Marlin 1894c. Robust and simple design. .357magnum proven work record, pay no mind to the rabble. Has an aftermarket front blade sight with a peep on the receiver (Skinner type). Handloads wicked accurate to 50 yards.

Giddy up. :evil:

Maverick223
June 10, 2011, 01:44 AM
Lever action...this one:
http://netk.net.au/Ballistics/IACmod87leveractionshotgun.jpg
(or even a Model '94 .30-30 or Win. '92 .45LC or Puma M92 in .454Casull...).
If you want a carbine with approximately .357Mag. power, the autoloading, proven in battle, M1 Carbine is the best option IMO.

OTOH, if you absolutely had to have a .357Magnum lever, I'd go with the Marlin...which is a very nice rifle, just not my idea of an ideal home defense firearm. YMMV

:)

Lakedaemonian
June 10, 2011, 01:53 AM
Rossi 92?! This will be you if you go this route and try and bet your life on that rifle :cuss:

Maverick223
June 10, 2011, 02:24 AM
Rossi 92?! This will be you if you go this route and try and bet your life on that rifleWorks just fine IME...but then again a scattergun is my first line of defense (a M1 Carbine being the first rifle I'd grab), and is likely to stay that way.

Have you actually used one...or is this a blanket statement based solely upon rumors and myths? :rolleyes:

Mac2
June 10, 2011, 02:39 AM
Why the rifle? And why a lever? Right now I have my .45 Commander and GP 100 available and ready, with a 1200 defender 12 ga by the bed. All else is in the safe and I'm good with that. A threat is not necessarily a threat in home defense at rifle range. Just my .02c.

shiftyer1
June 10, 2011, 02:39 AM
I almost bought a puma, I think rossi makes them but the shop wouldn't come down 20 bux! :) although thats the day I bought my 1911 at another shop for more then I wanted to spend. Doesn't make much sense huh? lol

Anyway I ended up falling into a marlin 1894c. It's a great gun with a pretty slick action. It's short and easy to get around with. I've used it on a couple deer and several coyotes with good results. I have 2 .357 revolvers so I can share ammo. I also have a winchester 30-30 but tend to grab the marlin first. It's not a long range shooter but I figure if something is out past 100 yards I really don't need to shoot it....probably couldn't see it anyway.

DeepSouth
June 10, 2011, 04:16 AM
I have found myself walking around my yard in the night hours to find what made the noise many times with my Marlin 1895M in my hand. It is chambered in 450 Marlin.

+1 for a Marlin.

03Shadowbob
June 10, 2011, 09:21 AM
Just my opinion but in a 900sf apartment, I'd be using a pump gun and #4 shot maybe even birdshot for the first round followed by #4. The shotgun is definitely cheaper than a lever gun and much less over-penetration worries.
If you are stuck on a lever though for reasons other than only HD then I'd pay no attention to anyone who says a 357 is anemic or a range toy. Plenty of deer taken up to 100 yards would completely disagree with that statement. Then again, the new generation of gun owners have been brainwashed into thinking that you need a 300WinMag for home defense and squirrel hunting.

hardluk1
June 10, 2011, 09:45 AM
Ron a lever rifle is a fine way to step up a handgun cartridge 's power but a basic 20ga or 12 ga pump is going to be half the price of a lever gun. Assumeing any long gun will take 2 hands to work both well you might want to add a kel tec carbine and high point carbine to that list. Many be a better choice of bullet types for the 9mm or 40 cal.

remember too that a new mossy 500 with a short barrel can be bought at a lower price new than any lever gun used. At room sizes distance a 20ga will throw a pattern that you can cover buy your palm with about any load .

memphisjim
June 10, 2011, 09:54 AM
it would be great so long as you arent turning to many corners
use light grain bullett

jdh
June 10, 2011, 10:07 AM
The weekend is here and I am back on the country retreat and I can use what ever I want.

Some are overlooking the fact that there is no universal "BEST". Mac2 asked why a lever. For some it is the best choice. It is not an "EBR" or handgun with the restrictions those classes of firearms carry in some parts of the country. A lever is less likely to draw negative attention at the range or from anti-gun friends and family. It looks like grandpa's deer rifle. A well trained operator can put rapid, sustained, accurate fire on target.

BTW, some would disagree that 5.56/223 is a real rifle cartridge.

03Shadowbob,
Humor me for a little bit. Build yourself a fake wall with 2X4 studs, good quality 5/8ths drywall, and fiberglass insulation. Back up to across the room distance and put a birdshot then a #4 through the wall and let us know what happens. As much as I disagree with briansmithwins he is correct when he said this "5.56 with a light jacketed varmint bullet is less likely to over penetrate".

It is a choice you make it based on your circumstances. For some the pistol caliber lever is the right one.

Jim Watson
June 10, 2011, 10:21 AM
If you are in a repressive jurisdiction that does not permit you to own a handgun, the .357 lever action would be plenty. I'd get the shortest barrel available; Marlin 1894C has an 18.5".

While I agree that a .223 would be less likely to shoot through walls, the muzzle blast indoors would be terriffic. The .357 carbine would merely be awful.

TexAg
June 10, 2011, 10:23 AM
I'd load it with a light, fast round, maybe like Cor-Bon Pow R' Ball to lessen penetration.

RichBMW
June 10, 2011, 10:33 AM
I own the Marlin 1894 chambered for .357/.38. That .357 coming from the longer barrel of a rifle is much more potent than it would be from a handgun. But I don't use this gun for home defense. I think my .40 S&W M&P is more appropriate for that purpose. Twice as many rounds, much more maneuverable in tight areas.

mainmech48
June 10, 2011, 10:36 AM
Personally, I have two pre-Taurus Rossi M92's (20" standard carbine & 16" "Trapper") in .38/.357 and both have been rock-solid performers. In fact, the little Trapper has become my favorite CF woods loafing companion: Less than 6# fully loaded with swivels and carry strap, just a tad over 35" OAL and consistent 1" 5-shot groups at 50 yds from the bench with my GP handloads (158 gr. LSWC over 5 gr. Unique in .357 cases) and a Lyman 66A receiver sight.

One man's "range toy" is another's working tool. IMHO, having a handy carbine and a handgun chambered for the same round is every bit as practical and versatile thing to have now as it was back in (ca.) 1876 when Colt decided to offer the SAA in .44 WCF to pair with the Winchester 1873. Not so much for any "increase in power", but for the plain fact that most folks are able to more consistently deliver whatever power a particular cartridge might offer quickly and accurately on-target with a carbine than a handgun pretty much regardless of the range. And that only becomes more pronounced, IMHO, as the range increases.

Again just MO, but while a revolver-caliber carbine might not be the ideal tool for a particular task, it'll sure handle a whole raft wider a range of the sort of things I need to do most at least tolerably well than a "real" CF rifle will.

ForumSurfer
June 10, 2011, 11:10 AM
On the downside, they are slow to load, it would pretty much have to be kept loaded.

I think if you are going to keep a home defense gun (particularly a rifle which is something you don't keep by your side 24/7 and will likely need to go fetch); it should be loaded, chambered and ready for action.

If you are comfortable with a lever, go for it. Jeff Cooper was a lever advocate and Gunsite once offered classes on them. For all the doubters, search around the web for "tactical levers" and you'll find several people who have experimented successfully with them. They looked mighty fast with paracord wrapped around the lever and forward mounted aimpoints. Just look at cowboy action shooters, it is possible to learn how to manipulate a lever with great speed under stress.

Are there better options? Yep. I doubt anyone will argue that a 357 lever is going to be faster than a 9mm carbine or AR, it is what it is. Reloads will be cumbersome. But if that is what the OP wants and it is what he is very familiar with, so be it. It is a VERY viable home defense firearm.

As far as 357 vs rifle rounds, it doesn't matter what caliber. Either is a good alternative and if you get the right ammo, over-penetration isn't going to be a problem. 357 will be fine for home defense, plenty of people sleep with a pistol in the same caliber by the bed.

Panzercat
June 10, 2011, 12:51 PM
I was thinking about getting the Mossberg 930 SPX but my budget right now doesn't allow it but maybe later on.
So don't get a 930 spx.

If you can afford a rossi lever in .357, you can afford an H&R Excell Auto 5 cut down to about 20in with a Rem 870 2 shot tube extender. They run you about $350-400 and don't seem to have any major issues for the environment you'll be employing them in. Here's an old THR archive (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-368549.html). I'm sure you can find others. A 930 is fine, this one is nearly half the price. Insert ZOMG!NOTMADEINAMERICA! here.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/ExcellA5-1-2.jpg

Jason_W
June 10, 2011, 01:20 PM
If the OP wants a .357 lever more power to him. The Marlins are great guns (if you can find one right now) and they are more than adequate for a vast majority of self defense and other utility scenarios a law abiding citizen will encounter.

Is a shotgun, AR carbine, or handgun a better HD choice? We could produce 100 pages of debate and vitriol on the topic, but the bottom line is that the OP wants a .357 levergun.

AKElroy
June 10, 2011, 01:25 PM
Find an online auction for a Win 94 trapper in .44 mag. Slim, trim, lightning fast to shoulder.

AKElroy
June 10, 2011, 01:27 PM
Interesting to see 2/3rds of the posts to this thread recommending something the OP is not wanting to discuss. He did say to recommend a "Lever Carbine", correct?

briansmithwins
June 10, 2011, 01:34 PM
Interesting to see 2/3rds of the posts to this thread recommending something the OP is not wanting to discuss. He did say to recommend a "Lever Carbine", correct?

Guilty.

It's like if some one asked 'Which .22LR for taking deer?' I'm just thinking there are better tools for the job.

BSW

Panzercat
June 10, 2011, 02:10 PM
He's obviously considered a firearm other than a levers or .357 and still is if not for cost. Disscusion of similar arms in lower price brackets is not unwarranted, my topic-nazi friends.

JustinJ
June 10, 2011, 02:21 PM
"I want to buy a lever action for home defense in .357 mag."

Planning on keeping apaches off the homestead?

Seriously though, quit making us guess why you prefer a lever action?

Panzercat
June 10, 2011, 02:39 PM
"I want to buy a lever action for home defense in .357 mag."

Planning on keeping apaches off the homestead?

Seriously though, quit making us guess why you prefer a lever action?
Personally, I'm getting the impression cost is his overriding concern. He wants an auto shotgun but it's not in the budget, so he's going with he next best thing in terms of high capacity firepower to cost ratio and ease of use-- a levergun.

If he has to have a lever and assuming i'm correct on the budget thing, Rossi probebly is his best bet. They even make Mare's Leg types now. The op can correct me as he sees fit, but if he didn't require the round capacity, I'd be suggesting a revolver, except the price to capacity ratio favors the lever by maginitudes.

Frankly, I'm trying to solve the real problem, not the one that he's settling for due to lack of options.

ForumSurfer
June 10, 2011, 02:39 PM
He's obviously considered a firearm other than a levers or .357 and still is if not for cost. Disscusion of similar arms in lower price brackets is not unwarranted, my topic-nazi friends.I don't want a shotgun.

Seriously though, quit making us guess why you prefer a lever action?The man wants a lever action. He likes lever guns. Lever guns are completely suitable for home defense. What is wrong with that? It isn't optimal, but if that's what he wants, that's what he wants. It's very much like going to the gunstore after your girlfriend/wife/sister/mom decides what she wants by shooting many different guns, only to get a 38 snub nose pushed on her when she asks the salesman about a 1911 commander.

Yes, there are more suitable options, but a lever isn't completely useless in a self defense role. Here's a link to a training video promo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rAjuEvDXOo&NR=1

Maybe he already has a revolver in 357 and wants a rifle to conserve reloading costs. If a 357 is ok for a revolver in home defense, it is ok out of a rifle, as well. Maybe he just likes 357?

Panzercat
June 10, 2011, 02:48 PM
The man wants a lever action. He likes lever guns. Lever guns are completely suitable for home defense. What is wrong with that? It isn't optimal, but if that's what he wants, that's what he wants.
I was thinking about getting the Mossberg 930 SPX but my budget right now doesn't allow it but maybe later on.

Seriously, get over yourself. There's nothing wrong with a lever. But given this comment, one the op broached himself, the one right above these very words, suggesting a low cost alternatives to a firearm he wants and has considered in place of a levergun is not out of line.

And with that, I bow out for the op to make his call.

JustinJ
June 10, 2011, 04:04 PM
There are other options for the price range 'below a Mossberg 930 SPX' so logic would dictate that there could be other factors in his decision to get a lever gun. Maybe knowing those factors would help others in making more useful recomendations. I'm not quite sure what is wrong with simply inquiring what those might be or how that means one is being critical of that decision.

Cosmoline
June 10, 2011, 04:41 PM
Nothing wrong with shotguns but they are quite different in handling characteristics from a compact lever action. They also recoil more, and are slower to cycle than a levergun carbine. Lever actions are flat profile and easier for some to manipulate than round-profile 12 ga shotguns. Plus ammo costs for a 12 ga is going to be considerably higher than a .357 carbine. Unless you train with cheapo bird shot which is not going to give you much idea of the recoil involved in the real defensive rounds. It's all a question of preferences and trade-offs.

Either will work fine, and either is preferable to a short gun.

Between rossi and Marlin, the Marlin is stouter but a notch heavier as well. Ideally I'd go with a true Winchester 92, but those aren't so easy to find. For something you're betting your life on I'd go with the Marlin. I liked the Rossi .44 Mag I had but it did give me some troubles such as the loose mag tube.

If you go with the .357 carbine remember that you'll get a good velocity increase from the barrel. You *can* certainly go up to a .30-30 out of a levergun, but then you'll be looking at larger rifles with slightly slower cycling times. One of the Hornady .357 SP's out of a carbine will absolutely work for home defense!

Dr.Rob
June 11, 2011, 01:48 AM
Skip the 'cowboy' octagon barrel set-ups if it's primarily an HD weapon, add a high visibilty front sight and remember you have to WORK the action, don't baby it.

Marlin's 'standard' 1894 has a lot less side to side play in the lever than Winchester 1892 style clones. The clones will be lighter & thinner than the Marlin.

Not all rounds feed equally in these rifles. A soft point will feed better than sharp shouldered hollw point, and you don't want to find that out in a critical situation. Find out what ammo feeds reliably, and shoots accurately in your rifle. Just about ANY factory 357 or 44 mag softpoint on the market is plenty of gun for HD.

No matter what you choose, take the time to pratice with it, shoot 'tactical' or IDPA style courses of fire with it. See how it handles in tight quarters.

I wouldn't pick a levergun as my first choice for HD, but it's not the worst choice.

76shuvlinoff
June 11, 2011, 08:31 AM
My Marlin 1894c in .357 sits stoked right next to my 870. Short, fast, low recoil, light, my wife runs it with ease.
Sure it's no black tactical combat gizmo but I don't think I'd want to be caught in the crossfire between the "range toy" and the scattergun.

As with all home defense firearms, find ammo that runs through it 100% and it'll work. As they always say around here, "....software not hardware"

.

CraigC
June 11, 2011, 10:36 AM
I've never handled an 1892 that had any slop in the lever. Certainly not the ones I own. I think some folks assume the 92 rattles like the 94. Not so. The average Marlin is much looser than the average 92.

Heck
June 11, 2011, 11:20 AM
The Marlin is a fantastic gun. It is extremely versatile, light, fast handling, accurate, and just plain handy. It is my go to walking around in the woods, strap on the 4wheeler, throw behind the seat of my truck just in case rifle...yes i said rifle. Mine is in 44mag and out of the longer barrel the cartridge is a beast.

Get some frangible rounds, throw on the XS sight rail and the Vortex Sparc and you have a more than adequate HD carbine.

Kliegl
June 11, 2011, 11:35 AM
Sorry, "ForumSurfer", but I, and others, will recommend the best thing for the situation.

A lever action gun IS NOT the best thing for a hi-rise small square footage apartment for many reasons.

1. A pistol cartridge carbine will be slower than a pistol, and easier to be grabbed, for not much more muzzle energy.
2. A shotgun is a much better close in gun than a rifle for many reasons.

I'd recommend either a decent pump gun, or a pistol. Consider a .357 revolver.

_N4Z_
June 11, 2011, 12:00 PM
Here is an article for the OP.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/marlin_1894.htm

Placement of the pill tops all other considerations in my book. But Kliegl, you better go check numbers on the for not much more muzzle energy comment. May apply to .38spl power level ammo, but not .357magnums.

_N4Z_
June 11, 2011, 12:04 PM
Here's an even better article by Paco Kelly. And for those interested in muzzle energies from the carbines, those are included here also.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

CraigC
June 11, 2011, 01:00 PM
Wow, I need my waders for this thread.

It is laughable that some actually believe a pistol would be a better tool for the job than a 16" repeating carbine. Some obviously have some weird misconceptions about leverguns and have zero knowledge of weapon retention. Believe me, nobody who grabs your muzzle as you round a corner is at an advantage. Step back, lever the barrel into the intruder and press the trigger.

The notion that a .357 rifle will be stop a fight any less quickly than a "real rifle" is equally silly. Most .357 loads will gain 400-500fps in a rifle barrel and that makes for nasty results on the other end with good jacketed bullets.

jiminhobesound
June 11, 2011, 04:11 PM
Seems to me that 1. you WILL buy a lever action rifle. 2. you WILL buy it in 357. Consequently, you really only wanted opinions on which lever action. Marlin has been making lever action guns for a very long time. They have a grrat tradition as a Deer hunting rifle.

Kliegl
June 12, 2011, 01:53 AM
N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.

As for the disrespectful post from Craig C, I fail to see what is laughable about a gun with more ammo that is semi-automatic being preferable to a lower ammo count, manual action gun at close ranges. At ranges over 25 yards, sure, but, this discussion was for an apartment.

Secondly, I'll refer you to Massad Ayoob's comments on close quarters weapon retention, as it is obvious you have a lot you could learn from his work.

Shanghai Dan
June 12, 2011, 06:02 AM
Personally, I can see a real reason for a lever for HD over a shotgun (and I use a lever for this very reason): I value my ears - I make my money with my ears. The muzzle blast of my Rossi 357 lever is MUCH more tame and quiet than my Kel Tec SUB2000 in 9mm, and absolutely nothing compared to any shotgun. I value my ears, I value my life. A 357 out of a 20" barrel is a fearsome round (especially with 9 more following), and I won't be permanently deafened if used in an HD situation.

_N4Z_
June 12, 2011, 12:55 PM
N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.

Well, it is your choice to spout the word, without being knowledgable of all the facts. It's your opinion after all. In my opinion you are wrong. But hey, some water is there just in case curiosity gets the better of ya. ;) Haahaa, stay thirsty my friends!!

Kliegl
June 12, 2011, 02:24 PM
Well, it is your choice to spout the word, without being knowledgable of all the facts. It's your opinion after all. In my opinion you are wrong. But hey, some water is there just in case curiosity gets the better of ya. Haahaa, stay thirsty my friends!!

So, let me see if I have this right. You post a link to an article citing that the "cowboy needed his independence" and the "lever gun that shot the same cartridge as his pistol was just the perfect thing." and then it goes on to talk about the .357 mag, the .38 special, and the .44 mag as being the perfect cartridge for that. I'll leave the integral problem with that reasoning as an exercise for the reader.

Then, when I comment that a carbine does not give "much more" muzzle energy than a pistol, and that, if one were to have a rifle, one should have a rifle's cartridge, you have the temerity to call me wrong and link anecdotal testing that, when read, yields a whopping 500 fps on average gain over a pistol cartridge, while totally ignoring the fact that centerfire rifle cartridges range about 1000 fps more than a pistol cartridge carbine.

One wonders if you have actually ever shot any of these calibers mentioned, seeing as how you think pistol rounds, when shot out of a rifle, somehow compete with actual rifle rounds.

Red October
June 12, 2011, 02:43 PM
I have a Marlin and have never had any complaints with it; it is as reliable as anything I own. I think .357 (or .45LC) would be a great choice. .357 is probably a better choice if you're cost conscious. If you're worried about over penetration of walls, you could always load it with Glazers or something similar. They aren't cheap, but they were developed specifically to prevent overpenetration (originally for air marshals on planes).
Personally, I use a CX4 Storm in .40S&W for the same purpose. The Storms aren't as cheap as the used to be, so they might be outside your budget. The .40 has plenty of capability at distances you face inside a house, and the Storm reloads quickly. Statistically, most gun fights involving civilians last less than 5 shots, so quick reloading isn't really that big a deal, it's mostly for peace of mind.
I agree with earlier postings that your hearing will be better after firing a .357 out of a carbine as compared to a .223 or a shotgun. When I shoot the Storm, it isn't nearly as loud as the M96 pistol in the same chambering.
I don't have any experience with Rossi firearms, although I do find myself looking at the Ranch Hand in .45LC.
I recall that you posted earlier regarding the CX4, and got similar negative remarks about pistol caliber carbines. Personally, I believe they have their place. I think there are a few hundred or so SWAT teams using HK MP5s or UMPs that would agree. Get what you like. If you let anyone brow-beat you into making a different choice, you probably won't be happy long term.

Red October
June 12, 2011, 02:48 PM
I have a Marlin and have never had any complaints with it; it is as reliable as anything I own. I think .357 (or .45LC) would be a great choice. .357 is probably a better choice if you're cost conscious. If you're worried about over penetration of walls, you could always load it with Glazers or something similar. They aren't cheap, but they were developed specifically to prevent overpenetration (originally for air marshals on planes).
Personally, I use a CX4 Storm in .40S&W for the same purpose. The Storms aren't as cheap as the used to be, so they might be outside your budget. The .40 has plenty of capability at distances you face inside a house, and the Storm reloads quickly. Statistically, most gun fights involving civilians last less than 5 shots, so quick reloading isn't really that big a deal, it's mostly for peace of mind.
I agree with earlier postings that your hearing will be better after firing a .357 out of a carbine as compared to a .223 or a shotgun. When I shoot the Storm, it isn't nearly as loud as the M96 pistol in the same chambering.
I don't have any experience with Rossi firearms, although I do find myself looking at the Ranch Hand in .45LC.
I recall an earlier posting regarding the CX4, and similar negative remarks about pistol caliber carbines. Personally, I believe they have their place. I think there are a few hundred or so SWAT teams using HK MP5s or UMPs that would agree. Get what you like. If you let anyone brow-beat you into making a different choice, you probably won't be happy long term.

_N4Z_
June 12, 2011, 03:55 PM
Kiegl, you think what you want, chip.

OP solicited opinions about .357 carbines for HD which I offered. I do own a Marlin 1894c, which I think I mentioned. Short, simple, quite handy, and more than adequate for the task that he/she inquired about. I have tested 110gr and 125gr loads that yielded impressive results. The links posted are relevent to the original inquiry and also filled with good info. Additionally, Paco is a well known source of good experience. Why do you feel the need to marginalize them??

Now I think you're both wrong, and grumpy. :D

ripp
June 12, 2011, 04:02 PM
same price range, but much better performance in almost any category you care to name. It is faster to disengage a safety than to thumb back a hammer or work a lever. The autoloader cycles 2x as fast as anyone can accurately fire a lever action in repeat shot scenarios, too. The SKS and softpoints is a decent deer rifle, to 150 yds, the 357 is limited to more like 100 yds, or its jhp won't expand reliably at impact.

ripp
June 12, 2011, 04:05 PM
the pistol is normally a lot better choice than any longarm, for the simple reason that you can ccw it around the house and have it when trouble comes, as vs running to get the longarm that you probably wont get to in time. Remember, few bad guys make you shoot them, if you will just be smart enough to leave them an escape route. So it's not really about power or accuracy, it's about getting a gun pointed at the bad guy, in time for him to see it and leave.

Kliegl
June 12, 2011, 04:11 PM
Kiegl, you think what you want, chip.

OP solicited opinions about .357 carbines for HD which I offered. I do own a Marlin 1894c, which I think I mentioned. Short, simple, quite handy, and more than adequate for the task that he/she inquired about. I have tested 110gr and 125gr loads that yielded impressive results. The links posted are relevent to the original inquiry and also filled with good info. Additionally, Paco is a well known source of good experience. Why do you feel the need to marginalize them??

Now I think you're both wrong, and grumpy.

How does that make me wrong about saying a rifle cartridge offers superior ballistics to a pistol cartridge? Perhaps you need to reread what I wrote.

_N4Z_
June 12, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yes rifle cartridge ballistics are typically superior to pistol cartridge. So what?

Point of order - That is not the subject of this thread.
Would a pistol firing carbine be a good HD implement? Sure it would. Is it the best? Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe somewhere in between. Depends a lot on the person driving. Are there better options? Perhaps.

I think you are wrong about a small lever pistol carbine not being a good HD tool. My opinion, you are absolutley entitled to yours.
I think you are wrong for panning valid evidence when it is presented to substantiate that claim, when it is counter to your position.
I think you are wrong for calling into question my experience, when you do not know me or my background. Bush league moves.

Bored now.

I see you're somewhat new. Welcome to THR.

bigfatdave
June 12, 2011, 07:12 PM
why the lever, instead of say, an sks?length?
weight?

zxcvbob
June 12, 2011, 07:31 PM
N4Z, I don't have to check numbers. A pistol cartridge carbine is something that was invented (or, at least popularized) by non-centerfire rifle hunting regulation states. If you're going to have a RIFLE, use a RIFLE'S cartridge. Enough said.At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30, and the .357's magazine holds twice as many rounds. .357 practice ammo is also cheaper. The biggest disadvantage of the .357 is finding one for sale; used ones don't exist and new ones are expensive when you do find them. Used .30-30's, both Marlin and Winchester, are pretty easy to find.

briansmithwins
June 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30

For values of 'rough' that include a difference in energy of 1000 ft/lbs.

125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Another point I don't think anyone has brought up is this: What is the bad guys are wearing body armor? Even Level II body armor will keep out .357 but utterly fail against rifle cartridges.

BSW

Averageman
June 12, 2011, 07:53 PM
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r263/Averageman1/new870andmy336001-1.jpg
That Marlin was dropped down a canyon. Both the stock and the barrel took a heck of a ding on the way down. I bought it for $150 and the barrel and stock had the damaged area's removed and it is a servicable H/D gun, deer rifle and hog gun.
You can't beat a Marlin.
BTW That 870 beside it was $150 also.
You can do a lot if you have the tools and go for it.
Thanks
A/M

ironhead7544
June 12, 2011, 09:39 PM
I would go with the M92. Make sure it works 100% with the load you pick. I had a 16 and 20 M92 in 357. Very fast and slick handling. I would pick a 110 or 125 gr 38 Special +P if it would feed. Will give about the same velocity as a 4 inch 357 revolver with a lot less noise. Contact stevesgunz to slick up the action yourself.

Maverick223
June 12, 2011, 09:40 PM
length?
weight? [WRT the recommendation of an SKS]Valid points...OTOH a Vz.58 or an M1 Carbine?

At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30Not hardly; me thinks you confuse the .357Mag. with the 7.62x39mm (which is still less than the .30-30WCF).

:)

Cosmoline
June 12, 2011, 09:54 PM
One wonders if you have actually ever shot any of these calibers mentioned, seeing as how you think pistol rounds, when shot out of a rifle, somehow compete with actual rifle rounds.

They .357 and .44 Magnum out of a carbine are on par with intermediate rifle cartridges. The .44 Mag out of a carbine can even exceed the performance of the .30-30 at close ranges, though beyond 100 yards you are likely better off with the .30-30.

This really only matters when you're talking about hunting game, though. For home defense purposes *any* of them are good choices with the right bullets, and it really comes down to personal preferences and familiarity.

Nicodemus38
June 12, 2011, 10:11 PM
the problem here is that no one is willing to accept the increase in muzzle energy from switching from a 4 inch barrel to an 18 inch barrel.

lets look, with simple facts that have been 'set in stone" so to speak.

when barrel length goes down, velocity tends to suffer and reduce bullet energy. reduced energy means it doesnt perform as well.

no one would laugh if you put the highest tested gold dot or hornady 357 mag load in your snub nose, or carried it in your 8 inch revolver. so why is everyone getting their panties bunched up about it being insufficient when used in 18 inches of barrel?

these small bullets would get pushed beyond design limits and would most likely have the same issues for the short barrel 44 loads that get pushed from a long barrel ie massive deformation that may render them not so greatat penetration.

simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.

nipprdog
June 12, 2011, 10:21 PM
For values of 'rough' that include a difference in energy of 1000 ft/lbs.

125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Post fail.

You chose the greatest firearm reference sight, Wikipedia :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

You're comparing 357 HG results VS 357 lever action results.

As previously stated, and posted here, to the blind, 357 speeds from a 4-6" barrell VS a 16-20" barrell are SUBSTANTIAL.

_N4Z_
June 12, 2011, 10:29 PM
125gr .357 Mag is listed as having 710 ft/lbs. 130gr .30-30 comes out to 1799 ft/lbs.

Another point I don't think anyone has brought up is this: What is the bad guys are wearing body armor? Even Level II body armor will keep out .357 but utterly fail against rifle cartridges.

Doing the math that .357 in dia. 125gr slug pushed from an 18" barrel @ 2100 fps yields an energy rating of around 1220 ft/lbs.
A 30-30 running a .308" dia. 130gr slug from a 20' barrel @ 2400 produces around 1660 ft/lbs.
(Speer Manual #14)

So yes the 30-30 runs about 440ft/lbs higher. Don't know where your 710ft/lb. number came from.

And here is an unscientific test done on what these guys are calling Level2 body armor. Various pistol round impacts on the vest, shot from pistols. I assume the same rounds fired from a longer barrel would do more damge.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm

nipprdog
June 12, 2011, 10:47 PM
Don't know where your 710ft/lb. number came from.

Read post 72.

:D :D

zxcvbob
June 12, 2011, 11:21 PM
simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.
I think a soft lead hollowpoint would explode at those velocities. I'd use a hard lead bullet (but not too hard); a RNFP or a DEWC.

bigfatdave
June 13, 2011, 12:01 AM
Valid points...OTOH a Vz.58 or an M1 Carbine?
Well, an M1 Carbine is a nice indoor defensive longarm, IF it feeds softpoints well* but a levergun feeding high-end .357mag hollowpoints is still a pretty damn good solution.

*(note to self, weather turned months ago, why am I still "waiting for better outdoor range weather" to test my M1 Carbine with soft-nose ammo I bought last fall?)

===

simply upgrade to the fbi 158 gr swhp, and youll have the best of everything.What makes that round superior to the new "LEVERevolution" rounds from Hornady?
http://www.hornady.com/store/357-Mag-140-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
And do the feebs still have a listed .357 load? And is it formulated for the longer barrel?

**(in the interests of not causing involuntary snoozing, we'll skip the internal ballistics lecture)


===

Seriously, I posted the "ballistics by the inch" link way back, and many posters seem to be unaware that in most cases you get bonus power from a longer barrel** particularly if the ammo is formulated to take advantage of it. A levergun is light, handy, reliable, simple, and more than accurate enough for any reasonable HD work I can think of. Reloads will be slow and capacity will be somewhat lower - I think the OP is aware of that ... otherwise I don't see any major problems with the concept, and a LOT of advantages. With good planning, there's no reason it can't work to provide an immediate and overwhelmingly violent reaction to a home invasion. If sustained fire is needed ... ... well, when is sustained fire really needed?

That being said, my go-to for a HD long gun would probably be the KT sub2000, loaded up with cheap but reliable HP ammo***, or the M1 carbine. That's IF I ever need a long gun, the handgun on my person is much more likely to be used for that purpose simply because it is in reach and fully loaded. Perhaps the OP wants a longarm for more than just repelling ninja zombie pirate meth-head invaders ... and there aren't many varmints I can think of that a .357mag won't eliminate. Add in that a gun that looks more like "grandpa's deer gun" might look better to a jury than a "tacti-blaster 2000", and that the OP might just like leverguns and have a lot of experience running one, and I just don't get the continous "get a .223" and "get a shotgun" suggestions ... the guy wants help picking out a pistol-caliber levergun, not a bunch of peanut-gallery advice to change the entire plan.

*** (I save the premium HPs for handguns, the sub2k can eat leftover premium rounds and cheap WWB just fine)

zxcvbob
June 13, 2011, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by zxcvbob
At close range, .357 Magnum from a carbine has roughly the same ballistics as a .30-30
Not hardly; me thinks you confuse the .357Mag. with the 7.62x39mm (which is still less than the .30-30WCF).Nope, but I did think the .30-30 topped out closer to 2000 fps than it does.

Maverick223
June 13, 2011, 12:19 AM
Well, an M1 Carbine is a nice indoor defensive longarm, IF it feeds softpoints well* but a levergun feeding high-end .357mag hollowpoints is still a pretty damn good solution.Mine does (and will also feed HPs without failures, which is somewhat rare), a friends did too, but still a valid point as I know that there are some that do not like the soft points. Furthermore, I am absolutely not saying that a .357Magnum is inadequate or ineffective (nor am I saying that you made that conclusion, just thought it would be best to clarify), just stating the case for what I believe are better solutions to the same problem. BTW, you really need to test that in your M1, it makes all the difference in the world WRT terminal performance.

What makes that round superior to the new "LEVERevolution" rounds from Hornady?In most cases the LEVERevolution rounds afford much better performance, and do so safely (both with pressure and tip design). That said, I would want a lightweight "varmint" bullet for a rifle cartridge (though I don't know about the .357Mag. version, it may be designed for better/quicker expansion).

:)

Kliegl
June 13, 2011, 12:30 AM
Yes rifle cartridge ballistics are typically superior to pistol cartridge. So what?

Point of order - That is not the subject of this thread.
Would a pistol firing carbine be a good HD implement? Sure it would. Is it the best? Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe somewhere in between. Depends a lot on the person driving. Are there better options? Perhaps.

I think you are wrong about a small lever pistol carbine not being a good HD tool. My opinion, you are absolutley entitled to yours.
I think you are wrong for panning valid evidence when it is presented to substantiate that claim, when it is counter to your position.
I think you are wrong for calling into question my experience, when you do not know me or my background. Bush league moves.

Bored now.

I see you're somewhat new. Welcome to THR.

Exactly, it ISN'T the point of the thread, so why do you keep dancing around your little campfire chanting that I'm wrong?

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I grow weary of you throwing up straw men only to shoot them down.

How can I be wrong about saying a pistol cartridge carbine is not a good self defense tool when I never said that?

How can I discount evidence contrary to my claims when I never made that claim to begin with?

As for your experience, I was doing you the favor of assuming your incorrect statements were rooted in inexperience, as opposed to something wrong with your faculties, for instance. I find it ironic that all you do is straw man my points, then accuse me of bush league behavior, although, I got to say, the fake British-extraction bonhomie with your bush league and your takes off those silly beer ads is cute, in junior varsity fashion.

Welcome to the high road indeed. I've noticed that the petty bickering on all forums is here as well, it's just under a veneer of sophistication. I DO like how you pulled out all the arguments, including the "post count" one. What's next? You going to make fun of my handle?

stuckinsocal
June 13, 2011, 02:56 AM
Sorry, "ForumSurfer", but I, and others, will recommend the best thing for the situation.

A lever action gun IS NOT the best thing for a hi-rise small square footage apartment for many reasons.

1. A pistol cartridge carbine will be slower than a pistol, and easier to be grabbed, for not much more muzzle energy.
2. A shotgun is a much better close in gun than a rifle for many reasons.

I'd recommend either a decent pump gun, or a pistol. Consider a .357 revolver.
Fail, dude. You're saying to stay away from the carbine because it's easier to grab than the handgun, but recommend a shotgun. Did you read what you posted?

Red Cent
June 13, 2011, 11:27 AM
I want to buy a lever action for home defense in .357 mag. Ive been looking at the Rossi 92 and Marlins, does anyone have anything to say about the quality of Rossi? Are there any other good options?
Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?

Maverick223
June 13, 2011, 12:05 PM
Also does anyone know the muzzle velocity of a 125gr 357 mag JHP in a 20" and 24" barrel?I'd say between 1900-2100fps out of the 20in., depending upon the load. By that time you aren't gaining much (and possibly loosing a little), so the 24in. tube is likely to be about 50fps less than the 20in. Anything greater than about 16in. is of little gain (a little more capacity and possibly better balance, but that's it), so I would go with a short carbine for maneuverability.

:)

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 12:12 PM
Ive been looking at the Rossi 92 and Marlins, does anyone have anything to say about the quality of Rossi?

I'm wondering the same thing in my recent pawn shop searches. Used Rossi's are pretty cheap. They seem like a nice, quality lever and are made well with good materials. I'm curious to see what more knowledgeable lever folks think about them.

1. A pistol cartridge carbine will be slower than a pistol, and easier to be grabbed, for not much more muzzle energy.
2. A shotgun is a much better close in gun than a rifle for many reasons.

A pistol is my first firearm to go to, always will be since I don't conceal carry a rifle or wear a rifle at home. Also, I fail to see how a lever gun is any easier to grab than a shotgun since they are both about the same length in HD trim.

Maverick223
June 13, 2011, 12:26 PM
A pistol is my first firearm to go to, always will be since I don't conceal carry a rifle or wear a rifle at home. Also, I fail to see how a lever gun is any easier to grab than a shotgun since they are both about the same length in HD trim.I believe he is saying that the scattergun has such a gain in effectiveness that the drawback of length is a worthwhile trade-off. To a degree I feel the same way (but I'll take most any long gun over a pistol, especially in the same chambering).

:)

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 12:37 PM
I believe he is saying that the scattergun has such a gain in effectiveness that the drawback of length is a worthwhile trade-off. To a degree I feel the same way

I'd rather have my 870 in that role any day of the week, but I'd have no regrets about using the lever. You have quite a bit of versatility with what load to use in the shotgun, but you still need to aim it. It isn't going to magically hit your threat if you shoot in that general direction any more than a rifle will. If you are going to rule a rifle out based on retention, you need to rule the shotgun out since it has the same dimensions.

I'll take most any long gun over a pistol, especially in the same chambering

Same here. :)

But my handgun is always on me or by my side. The shotgun is by the safe at the ready, or in the safe while I'm out (sometimes it just lives in the safe and I forget to get it back out). If I know trouble is coming, I'll leave. In my mind, I'll need my home defense weapon right then with little time to spare so I don't have time to grab something in another room. That is the only reason I say a pistol is my first choice. I honestly think that my keeping a long gun at the ready and not directly by my side may be more of a liability than an asset.

Maverick223
June 13, 2011, 01:42 PM
You have quite a bit of versatility with what load to use in the shotgun, but you still need to aim it. It isn't going to magically hit your threat if you shoot in that general direction any more than a rifle will. If you are going to rule a rifle out based on retention, you need to rule the shotgun out since it has the same dimensions.Agreed on all counts.

But my handgun is always on me or by my side. The shotgun is by the safe at the ready, or in the safe while I'm out (sometimes it just lives in the safe and I forget to get it back out). If I know trouble is coming, I'll leave. In my mind, I'll need my home defense weapon right then with little time to spare so I don't have time to grab something in another room. That is the only reason I say a pistol is my first choice.I operate in a similar fashion. I have a pistol handy (most often a .45ACP, which isn't a powder puff, but isn't a shotgun/rifle either), and a scattergun at the front of the unlocked (while at home) safe. The pistol is used to get me to the shotgun (or carbine; both are often fairly close at hand, at least at night), time permitting (no guarantees).

:)

jdh
June 13, 2011, 02:45 PM
Rossi 92s are cheap in the pawn shop because the pawn shops get then cheap. Why? Because the owner is fed up with it and just wants to get rid of it fast and recover as much of his investment as possible.

The safety on the Rossi is on top of the bolt. You have to take your hand from the firing position to manipulate it. They have a reputation for not feeding and the lever/trigger feel rough and gritty.

The Marlin cross bolt safety can be worked while the hand is still in position. Should it ever be needed Marlin's customer service is much better to deal with. The Marlin is basically the same as it was in 1894. It is not a modified knock off a classic design. The fit, finish, and build quality of the Marlin is head and shoulders above the Rossi.

If you are going to depend on it to defend your life and property skip the Rossi and buy a Marlin.

My opinion, take it for what you paid for it.

Maverick223
June 13, 2011, 03:29 PM
The safety on the Rossi is on top of the bolt. You have to take your hand from the firing position to manipulate it. They have a reputation for not feeding and the lever/trigger feel rough and gritty.Personally I don't use levergun safeties...and would rather the feature be completely absent (IIRC someone makes a kit to do just that on the Rossi, and definitely for the Marlin) and use the hammer instead, so for me this is a non issue. Again, I have never had an issue with a Rossi M-92, but I haven't shot a .357Mag. version either.

:)

ripp
June 13, 2011, 03:48 PM
why do you want to be twice as slow for followup shots as with an autoloader? That is what you will be if you pick the lever action, in any make, model or caliber. Also, Ciener makes very nice, l$150 .22 conversion units for low cost, low noise practice with the Mini-14, the AK clones and the AR-15. You have to buy another $300 lever action to have a .22 understudy. Mini-14's, unless you are in a state like NJ, CT, or CA, run less than $400 used, you know. The .22 unit saves you 25c per shot, and you can always sell it for $75, so it's paid for after firing a lousy 300 rds. If you have time to go get a longarm, you also have the time to don a set of earmuffs, and you are crazy if you don't. All powerful guns are much too loud to fire indoors, without earprotection, the blast will too often make you miss subesqenuent shots, due to flinching, even if your first shot is a good one. A "pre set" Kevlar vest, ready to just drop over your head, is a great idea, as is a flashlight, all near the "home gun".

dprice3844444
June 13, 2011, 04:00 PM
the lever action basically was the first assault rifle

Oic0
June 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
Dont bother with leverevolution ammo in .357, unless they have made some changes it was pretty anemic. Buffalobore and double tap sell some 158 grainers ~ 2100fps and some 125s at ~2300fps. I wouldn't advise any of that for home defense though. It would penetrate too much. Shooting one of those hot 125s from DT at a steel horse trailer that the .38s were denting and dropping to the ground, the hot 125 went through and through, same for the small tree behind it... and that was a light hollowpoint. I think it would go through sheet rock like a hot knife through butter.

Panzercat
June 13, 2011, 05:47 PM
After four pages, i think Ron's pretty much washed his hands of this topic.
...Just sayin'.

Badlander
June 13, 2011, 07:08 PM
How true. Ron is defending A 900sf condo in A high rise building. the extra power of A .357 from A rifle as oposed to A handgun is probably of little concern.

Red Cent
June 13, 2011, 09:05 PM
We got his watch fixed yet?

scotjute
June 13, 2011, 10:21 PM
I had an older Rossi lever-action in .357 but did not like it. The accuracy was no better than my 6" barrel pistol, action felt stiff, and the loading ramp was sharp. Got rid of it and bought a Henry Big Boy with 20" barrell. The gun is very accurate, but it does weigh more than I would like. The action is very smooth, and I prefer its removeable magazine rod for ease of loading and un-loading.
If my choice was limited to Rossi or Marlin, would take Marlin.
I chose my caliber to match what I had in a pistol. Easier when traveling/camping to carry one caliber ammo. As mentioned by others the rifle reduces the noise when compared to the pistol. It has plenty of power out to 100 yds.

nipprdog
June 13, 2011, 11:08 PM
********

Maverick223
June 14, 2011, 12:13 AM
How true. Ron is defending A 900sf condo in A high rise building. the extra power of A .357 from A rifle as oposed to A handgun is probably of little concern.What does the size of living space have to do with anything...a long gun is always more effective (with all else being equal). Doesn't matter if you are shooting across a valley, across a bean field or a across a hallway width-wise. :confused:

Besides, we're in Rifle Country...when are you going to learn that the rifle always wins? :D

Badlander
June 14, 2011, 05:19 PM
I guess you are right. The bad guy shot with A .357 rifle at 25ft will be much deader than the bad guy shot with A .357 handgun. My mistake.

Maverick223
June 14, 2011, 11:50 PM
I guess you are right. The bad guy shot with A .357 rifle at 25ft will be much deader than the bad guy shot with A .357 handgun. My mistake.First of all, defensive arms are nothing like hunting...dead is not dead...the extra 10ms that the intruder takes to expire might very well matter. Whether or not the assailant expires or not doesn't matter, stopping the attack matters...taking away their ability to retaliate matters. I don't take chances with my life, much less the lives of my loved ones...I take any advantage I can. I fight dirty and I use a big "overkill" firearm that gets the job done (that I can handle).

It might be the difference between him laying dead, and you laying there with him. Secondly NO .357Magnum firearm (be it a rifle or pistol) is a knock 'em on their buttocks weapon...instant incapacitation is very unlikely even with a good center mass/vitals hit (obviously CNS shots do much better, but those shots are not guaranteed), the same IS NOT true of rifle cartridges like the .223Rem. (which effects a far larger area than it's caliber, due mostly to the temporary/permanent wound cavity created by hydro-static shock/cavitation and explosive fragmentation/rapid expansion), much less a good buckshot cartridge (which may not spread like a swarm of angry bees, but absolutely devastates the area impacted and affords much greater chance of hitting CNS vitals).

Again, when available, I will take all the edge I can get...the long-gun gives me that edge.

JustinJ
June 15, 2011, 11:30 AM
It seems to me at HD ranges a semiautomatic handgun is an advantage over a lever action rifle because at that range accuracy is not a huge factor but the semi allows for faster follow up shots.

wleoff
June 15, 2011, 07:30 PM
Here's a couple of HD type lever actions that I have. They're both in 45 Colt. The top one is a Marlin 1894S trapper with a 16 1/2" barrel. The bottom one is a Rossi Ranch Hand. The Rossi would be essentially point and shoot inside a house. I've used the Marlin as a truck gun but never for HD. For HD, I use a couple of Glock 19s with Crimson Trace lasers and a 870 for back up. To each his own.

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp244/wleoff/RanchHand.jpg

DriderX
June 15, 2011, 08:32 PM
Geez, I have some experience-based learning to pass along to the original poster, but I'm almost afraid to jump into this rip-tide of a thread...~

I think a lever gun could make a very good home defense tool. They can be light, compact, light in recoil, very easy to learn and use, and available at every power level one might want from mild to wild.

When I travel to California, where I'm always afraid of falling afoul of their Byzantine gun laws, I usually play it safe and take along a single-stack Springfield EMP 9mm and a compact Marlin 1894C in .44 Mag with two boxes of ammo: 50 rounds of relatively mild .44 Special defensive ammo (for close-in "social work") and 50 rounds of full-punch 240-grain .44 Magnum ammo (for zombies, Godzilla, and anything else unexpected). My 1894C holds 10 rounds of .44 Mag, can be topped off on the fly (an interesting trade-off vs. having a detachable magazine; in some cases the ability to keep the magazine topped off can actually be better), is set up with a very small red-dot reflex sight and even smaller laser, both backed by the factory iron sights.

I didn't set out to build a "tactical lever carbine" but it's sort of turned out that way :). Along the way it's simultaneously turned into a really nice little woods-walking carbine, weighing under 7 lbs, its slim receiver easy to carry in the hand, handy for whatever comes along, good out to 100 yards or so. In that role it's pretty much displaced the other two rifles I've previously used in that role: A Mini-30 (which is heavier and doesn't pack as much punch as the .44 carbine) and a Bushmaster Carbon-15 carbon-fiber 5.56 carbine, the latter a delightfully lightweight little rig that is a joy to carry and use, but when its purpose is to deal with the close-up unexpected in the boonies, I have more confidence in a 240-grain .44 Magnum than a 62-grain 5.56 round. The .44 can also do little tricks like fire a good-sized snake-shot capsule.

So if what you want is a lever-action carbine for home defense, go for it. Having owned several different lever guns, my recommendation would be a Marlin, and of the Marlins, the 1894C in either .357 or .44 Magnum. For use in the boonies or occasional hunting the .44 Magnum would be preferable; for home defense either one would work well.

Badlander
June 15, 2011, 09:53 PM
If it's an edge you need go with the Marlin 1895 Guide 45-70. Some Beartooth 525gr pile drivers at about 1600fps should produce one shot stops.
Hate to live next door, or the next door...............

Stevie-Ray
June 15, 2011, 09:57 PM
Ron is defending A 900sf condo in A high rise building. the extra power of A .357 from A rifle as oposed to A handgun is probably of little concern. I didn't read where Ron mentioned the size or make-up of his domain; maybe I missed it. The 900sf high-rise condo comment was from member jdh to Brian Smith.

The only lever gun I have is a Winchester 94, but it's in .30-30 and I would not want to use it for HD, unless it was all I had. If I was looking for a lever specifically for HD, I would have to agree with HenrySwift and find one in .45 Colt.

Maverick223
June 16, 2011, 10:18 AM
If it's an edge you need go with the Marlin 1895 Guide 45-70. Some Beartooth 525gr pile drivers at about 1600fps should produce one shot stops.
Hate to live next door, or the next door...............I have no need for such and feel perfectly secure in my choice of 3in. magnum No. 1B...and over-penetration is a minor concern (both with the prescribed load and my location). Rifle cartridges like the .223Rem. will do likewise (WRT over-penetration) when loaded appropriately.

:)

popper
June 16, 2011, 03:00 PM
Marlin. Find a real heavy flat point bullet, load it light. A 22 LR will penetrate sheet rock easily, let the lawyers worry about it. Actually, you can put a 10 penny nail through it by hand without much trouble. I can't shoot a lever from the hip, repeat shots aren't easy, even from the shoulder. After a armed home burglary in my neighborhood years ago, bought a 380 for my wife. She never learned to use it, put it in a drawer. Over the years I have put some thought to HD in a suburban neighborhood. Suggestions, change the locks to the kind that you don't have to unlock to open the door. Keep an old cell phone that will dial 911 on any button push handy(dialing 911 in an emergency is not easy). Get door opening audible alarm, a loud one. If you intend to stand and fight, you need all the time you can get, you won't wake up slowly. Use low flash powder if you want a second shot.
Unless you 'carry' in the house, 'exit-stage-left' is the best alternative. Apartment dwellers have a bigger problem. Maybe my suggestions will be of help.

jimniowa
June 16, 2011, 10:03 PM
For HD and SD I have the following in addition to pistols. At home I have a 12 ga 20" Coach Gun loaded with 3"#1 buck. In my truck I have Marlin 1894P, 16.25" barrel loaded with 250g hard cast SWC in .44 mag. This works for me.
Jim

Red Cent
June 16, 2011, 11:08 PM
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/Decorated%20images/th_SantaFeRiverStan181.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/Decorated%20images/?action=view&current=SantaFeRiverStan181.mp4)

Jeb21
June 16, 2011, 11:12 PM
I have a Winchester in 38/357 with a 20" barrel. I bought it for Cowboy shooting. It has also served as home defense weapon.

Red Cent
June 17, 2011, 02:54 PM
That guy is Santa Fe River Stan. He shoots out of Orlando, FL. Not too shabby.

CMUnderWoody
June 17, 2011, 04:39 PM
I can't help but wonder how many people have actually fired off a round inside their dwelling, or one similar. I can assure you, it will not be fun.
The issue of home defense is a funny story, and if you plan on doing it by any means, the story just gets longer.
A lever action? Sure why not. If I knew someone was walking up to my door to do me harm, a .357 or .45 colt lever-boy would gladly do the harm. But with a house full of kids and dogs, I have to expand the arsenal. I can't just throw lead around like i used to.

Which brings us back to the door alarm and a dog as you first line of defense. if you don't know they are coming, your window of defense gets smaller and so does your ability and timeframe to raise a gun, and thats assuming you are sleeping with it.

I have to manuver around my wild-sleeper of a woman and try not to shoot through my kids wall or send led down the hall to me dear old grandmothers door.

But if you aren't worried about it, don't worry about it. Whatever you get, If it is really for home defense, set up a mock bed out in the woods, surround it by three sides of plywood and practice getting up at the sound of a buzzer (door alarm). If you still think the lever is the choice for your scenario, Then either Marlin or Rossi will do....But really that should be a few paces back in your arsenal. Perfect Zombie Apocalypse choice....

bigfatdave
June 17, 2011, 06:15 PM
Which brings us back to the door alarm and a dog as you first line of defense.which isn't really applicable to picking out the exact lever gun ... I'll assume the OP has his layers set up and is just picking out a new toy that also fills the extra role.

CMUnderWoody
June 17, 2011, 06:29 PM
I love a good lever-gun. For the sake of having a lever gun, not for defending my apartment, but my farm...hell yes

AKElroy
June 17, 2011, 07:07 PM
As my front seat truck gun in pig country, my 94 .30-30 has been swung into action on more moving game than any other gun I own. It is the only gun I have taken running game with, and I have done so on too many occasions to count. Several decent deer, and dozens of pigs & even a coon or twelve.

It occurs to me that as a result I have more "Live" training experience with that levergun on a moving target than any other gun I own. Not that I shoot it the most, but I do shoot it at moving stuff the most.

Since it is usually the only gun with me on my no-season weekend trips to the lease, it sits next to the bed as my only line of defense in the trailer. I sleep really well in that trailer.

RugerMcMarlin
June 17, 2011, 08:32 PM
rondeer10mm, I think you should get a .357 mag lever action carbine, any one of your choices will work just fine. 357 is plenty. :)

200-250lb dumb a's slow down 357 bullets nicely.

Speedgoat
June 30, 2011, 12:29 AM
I just got a Winchester (Japan) Model 92 Large Loop Carbine in 45 Colt. I am really impressed and think that the rifle was actually nicer than I had anticipated. I think it'd work pretty dang well for what you're looking for.

Sig88
June 30, 2011, 04:04 PM
Get the Marlin. They make great rifles. I've had a 357, 44 and 45-70. Wished I had the 357, it was a fun rifle. Marlins are great rifles so you don't have to worry about quality. Just make sure you clean it before you shoot and break it in with about 75-100 rounds. Chambering may be a little rough but it smooths itself out.

whetrock
June 30, 2011, 04:56 PM
I'm pretty fond of the good ole' 92 action so I'm gonna say go with the Rossi if I were to go with a Marlin however I might opt for an older model (I hear they are better quality) also I believe in tight quarters the .357 from a carbine or pistol will be just fine and deliver more than enough power it's all about shot placement anyways.

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