.357 Sig Carbines?


PDA






RonDeer10mm
June 9, 2011, 10:51 PM
Does anyone know who makes one?

If you enjoyed reading about ".357 Sig Carbines?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
1stmarine
June 9, 2011, 11:28 PM
Hi. I don't know but this but could be interesting.
This case is all about speed so it would be nice to know what a special police 90gr solid could do.
Probably the easiest would be to get a .40 cal upper and then a 9mm barrel and have the chamber cut for .357 SIG. It should be simple by a good gunsmith.

Also you could order a barrel straight from here and swap with the .40 cal
or see if you want to put it together. It looks they are out of stock...

http://www.yellowlogic.net/marine-electronics/product/HC105O357.html

gunnutery
June 9, 2011, 11:33 PM
I would like to see it done as well, but I'd be causious of using a 9mm barrel as the .357 has much higher pressures.

Z-Michigan
June 9, 2011, 11:55 PM
I haven't seen one. I can see the appeal, but the size and shape of 357 SIG is very efficient in handgun barrels, so it probably won't produce much extra velocity in a longer say 16" barrel. It could have some minor benefit in a 6-8" PDW type firearm.

It appears that Olympic Arms, which would have been my best guess, makes a 10mm carbine as well as 9/40/45, but nothing is listed in 357 SIG. It would be a piece of cake to put a 357 SIG barrel into a 40 carbine, if you could obtain the 357 SIG barrel.

I'd be causious of using a 9mm barrel as the .357 has much higher pressures.

Actually the pressure difference is only 1500 psi between a 9mm +P and a 357 SIG. Nothing in the scheme of things. Case strength is far more important but is just a matter of the case itself and appropriate case support (chamber and bolt).

Maverick223
June 10, 2011, 01:07 AM
I know of none, but it seems like the perfect pistol-cal. carbine to me. Been wanting one since finding out about the cartridge. A 7.62Tok. would be similar (and utilize less costly ammunition)...but there is a lack of carbines (though not completely absent) in that chambering as well.

:)

1stmarine
June 10, 2011, 01:27 AM
If the 9mm makes a good carbine round the 357 SIG should do better as the cartridge can take more powder and pressure.
The section of the AR barrel can take the .357 and much more. The same section of steel is used for the WSSM cartriges. Simple math.

The tokarev cannot compete with the SIG it has too much sectional density for being efficient. Also the SIG is cheaper for the reloader as we use bulk 9mm pistol bullets.
SIG was a new development from SIG and Federal with two main purposes:
A) Mimic the venerable .357 magnum with the 125-127gr loads.
B) Special police loads can defeat standard body armor and penetrate through glass and steel with very little deflection.

I shoot them all 9mm, 40cal, .357SIG and 45ACP and I find this cartridge to be extremely effective. This is the secret service choice for a reason. I shoot them out of a glock (full size this one) and, like all the other calibers, zero malfunctions.

THplanes
June 10, 2011, 01:57 AM
I haven't seen one. I can see the appeal, but the size and shape of 357 SIG is very efficient in handgun barrels, so it probably won't produce much extra velocity in a longer say 16" barrel. It could have some minor benefit in a 6-8" PDW type firearm.

.

Ballistics by the inch is handy.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

Maverick223
June 10, 2011, 02:35 AM
The tokarev cannot compete with the SIG it has too much sectional density for being efficient. Also the SIG is cheaper for the reloader as we use bulk 9mm pistol bullets.Too much SD?...no such thing. :confused: It does give up a bit of power and is a bit smaller caliber, but that isn't a big deal for me, as I would only use it for a plinker. Additionally the 7.62Tokarev may not be as cost effective for the handloader, but you can buy loaded cartridges for less than you can handload for any pistol cartridge, so I really don't see the concern.

:)

Devonai
June 10, 2011, 02:46 AM
If you have a Glock 31 or 32 then you can get one of these:

http://www.mechtechsys.com/glock.php

Also note that with this setup you can install a .357 Sig carbine top end on a Glock 17/19 or 22/23 frame as long as you use .357 or .40 cal magazines.

kozak6
June 10, 2011, 03:17 AM
You could track down an .357 SIG AR-15 upper and stick it on a lower. That would do it.

Not sure who makes one off the top of my head.

Z-Michigan
June 10, 2011, 10:35 AM
Ballistics by the inch is handy.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html

Yes indeed. Looks like my educated guess was right on.

bcp280z
June 10, 2011, 12:29 PM
I've thought about it before, that the mil should adopt something like an mp5 in 357sig.

Info is scarce found this though

Posted: 2/13/2008 10:32:58 AM
Just to give you guys some info on the new MCS (Modular Carbine System). To answer your questions this is a modular carbine that can be converted throughout a host of calibers of your choice... 9mm/10mm/40SW/45ACP/45GAP/357SIG. All it takes to do so is a barrel, bolt face, and a mag well adapter. The removable adapters are available in two sizes... one size for 9mm, 40SW, 357SIG, 45GAP, and one size for 10mm and 45ACP. This is all converted without the use of any tools.The target weight will be 4.5 lbs or lighter. The MCS will have an external bolt release, cross safety, quick detach 41V50 chrome lined barrel w/ removable flash hider so a suppressor can be used. Action is a mass blowback system. The MCS uses any of the hi-cap glock mags of which there are millions in circulation. All of the MSAR rail accessories will adapt to this system. MSRP on any caliber variation w/1.5 optic will be $1259.00 Any carbine with a 9" inch top rail and no optic will MSRP for $995.00 making this system probably the best value you will see on any firearm in a long time. Notice the new/additional sling quick detach points in the pics.

~ Tony Marfione
(http://www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=43&t=236968&page=1)

PercyShelley
June 10, 2011, 01:41 PM
I have pictures from an old Guns Digest about rebarreling an IMI uzi carbine to 9mm AE, which was .41 AE necked down and pretty similar in performance (if not exact dimensions) to .357 SIG. It did work, but in the straight-blowback action the case neck got very badly distorted. IIRC before his untimely passing Kurt of KKF did a .357 SIG AR-15 and it had the same problem.

It's probably a fixable problem, but a simple re-barreling of an existing .40 carbine will most likely do ugly things to your expensive .357 SIG brass that will make reloaders cry.

Maverick223
June 10, 2011, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the info, PercyShelley. It makes sense, but I would have never thought of it.

:)

gotzero
June 10, 2011, 05:07 PM
Ron Williams built me a fantastic .40 S&W upper for the AR platform. Give RMW Xtreme a look.

Sadly, it seems like the MCS is vaporware. I would love to get one if they ever materialize.

JustinJ
June 10, 2011, 05:50 PM
IMO the best pistol caliber riflle round is the .45 because if one ever decides to put a can on it there is no loss of velocity. Plus the .45 is unquestionably effective. A HK USC to UMP conversion is hands down the best pistol caliber rifle out there for those unable to get the real deal. Even without a can mine is incredibly quiet with a 16" barrel. Haven't SBRed it yet though. The .357 sig really is designed for short pistol barrels so it would be interesting to see what it would do out of a rifle length barrel.

goon
June 10, 2011, 06:47 PM
This idea has never occured to me before, but now that someone mentions it, it does sound kind of cool. I am also thinking the .40 S&W AR upper rebarreled to .357 SIG would be the quickest route, but I only know of one manufacturer making .40 uppers and Olympic isn't well thought of by some.
It's sounding like a custom job so keep us informed of what you come up with!

1stmarine
June 10, 2011, 07:59 PM
No doubt the .45ACP is a very serious caliber but from there to be the best pistol caliber that is a stretch.
The .357 SIG is really intended for FULL LENGTH pistol barrels. It is all about speed with the original objectives as described before.
That is why it is the secret service choice over any other casings and calibers.

JustinJ
June 10, 2011, 08:06 PM
It's my understanding that the .357 sig was tailored to give the performance of a .357 magnum from the shorter barrels of compact autos. But i can't claim to know that as a fact.

I can't see any reason it would be superior to the .45 in a carbine. Not to mention if a little more velocity is wanted +P is readily available. The UMP .45 is far more popular than the ump .40 and not even made in .357 sig as far as i know.

1stmarine
June 10, 2011, 08:40 PM
The necking down and extra pressure is all about speed so better stick to the longer pistols.
The .357 sig is good out of a mid length pistol but ideal out of a full length pistol.
It looks like in a carbine barrel is also a prime performer. I like the energy, speed and therefore flat trajectory just like the pistols.


.45 ACP 185gr FTX bullet 16" barrel...
BC .140

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy
0 1362 -0.5 0 0 762
25 1267 1.84 0.73 0.06 659
50 1188 2.83 2.82 0.12 580
75 1123 2.28 6.44 0.19 518
100 1069 0 11.8 0.25 469
125 1025 -4.19 19.06 0.33 432
150 988 -10.44 28.39 0.4 401
175 956 -18.93 39.95 0.48 375
200 928 -29.78 53.88 0.56 354



.357 SIG 124gr XTP bullet 16" barrel...
BC .165

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy
0 1723 -0.5 0 0 817
25 1615 0.99 0.47 0.05 718
50 1518 1.65 1.78 0.1 634
75 1427 1.36 4.03 0.15 561
100 1343 0 7.36 0.2 497
125 1268 -2.57 11.89 0.26 443
150 1200 -6.49 17.78 0.32 397
175 1142 -11.93 25.18 0.38 359
200 1093 -19.03 34.25 0.45 329

Z-Michigan
June 10, 2011, 09:44 PM
the .357 sig was tailored to give the performance of a .357 magnum from the shorter barrels of compact autos.

That's the marketing claim. In reality 357 SIG (which, FYI, really uses a .355 or .356 bullet, like a 9mm) is just slightly warmer than 9mm +P or typical 38 Super loads. It compares to the mild common commercial 357 Mag loads in a 4" or shorter revolver, but once you look at hotter 357 Mag loads or longer barrels the 357 Mag is truly in a whole different class. Basically 357 SIG gives you a 9mm +P+ without worries about excessive pressure for the gun design. That's about it.

I can't see any reason it would be superior to the .45 in a carbine. Not to mention if a little more velocity is wanted +P is readily available.

45 ACP is a dog in a carbine, especially with a 16" or longer barrel. There's a reason Thompsons and Grease Guns used 10" barrels. It's an old, slow, low pressure cartridge optimized for a 5-6" barrel, barely adequate in shorter and gaining little in longer.

BTW I own handguns in both 357 SIG and 45 ACP, it's not like I dislike them. I just want realistic information to be out there.

1stmarine
June 10, 2011, 10:56 PM
I also have all the calibers and the .357 is superior to the 9mm +P+ loads, not just in the pressure issue but other aspects.

This a chart with several 357 Sig Factory Rounds measured with RCBS ammo-master chrono at 2-3 yards and ballistic gel target at 8 yards.

Glock 17 9mm
Cartridge Penetration Velocity Energy
Buffalo 9mm Luger +P+ 115gr 12.9 1402 502
+P, Cor-Bon, 115 Gr 12.1 1389 466

Glock 31 .357 SIG
Cartridge Penetration Velocity Energy
Federal 125 gr jhp 13.7 1418 548
Buffalo .357SIG low flash 16.5 1529 649


Swanow's data comparing two popular top cartriges:

Cartridge Penetration Crush C.C. Stretch ExpansionS.C.
357 Sig Federal 125 gr JHP 13.7 3.7 43.4 .59
40 S&W Corbon 135 gr JHP 9.8 2.4 69.1 .56

This and other similar data is available to the public.

Maverick223
June 11, 2011, 03:06 AM
I have and very much like the .45ACP (my USP-45FS is easily my favorite pistol), but its effectiveness out of a carbine isn't impressive to say the least (even with +P or the excessively hot .45Super), while a .357SIG stands to gain a fair amount from the added barrel length (more energy on target, with less drop, and lighter weight). Given the option, I'd choose the .357SIG hands down.

:)

rjrivero
June 11, 2011, 03:23 AM
Ron Williams makes Direct Impingement 357 Sig uppers for AR's, I believe. I have his contact info somewhere around here. I could dig it up if you're really interested.

PM me if you want me to look it up, otherwise I won't bother.

ScarLata
July 25, 2013, 01:38 PM
Still waiting for the civilian version of the real CZ 805 BREN or Sig Carbine MPX, but as far as OP request, what about this: http://www.thureondefense.com/content/thureon-defense-ga-octagonal-handguard-picatinny-rail-kit-magpul-ctr-buttstock-magpul-mbus-g

CSC_Saint
July 25, 2013, 08:37 PM
Well, if your willing to wait, Sig Saucer is due for the launch of their MPX by the end of the year. Listed calibers for it: 9mm, .357 SIG, and .40 s&w. Msrp is anyone's guess still, seems to be around the 1500 area.

Not sure if they'll release it in 3 different calibers, or if it comes standard in one caliber with conversion barrels for the others.

JShirley
July 25, 2013, 08:43 PM
I was very impressed by the MPX. I think it's what the MP5 should have been, if H&K was a decent company, instead of a Teutonic monolith that refuses to listen to customers.

John

gunnutery
July 26, 2013, 05:40 PM
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=285845&CAT=288

I was thinking that Lone Wolf did a .357 sig rifle. I just looked and the only uppers they have right now are in 9mm. But the link above is for the receivers which state they accept 9mm, .40, .357 sig and .45 gap Glock mags.

Reloadron
July 26, 2013, 08:49 PM
There will always be a strong attraction to carbine rifles chambered in powerful or fast pistol or revolver cartridges. Matter of fact any hot small pistol calibers like the 7.62X25 have a strong following.

The 40 S&W spawned from the 10mm. I think the 10mm was introduced as the Bren Ten. I had a Colt Delta Elete back then and the only problem with the 10mm was it beat the heck out of handguns like the Delta by Colt. S&W got smart and shortened the 10mm and the 40 S&W was born.

Sig got into a good thing when they necked down the 40 to the 357 Sig. However, the concepy was far from new or revolutionary. During the late 50s a gentleman named Bo Clerke necked down a 45 ACP and developed the .38/.45 Clerke which went by a few other names. All one needed was a 38 super barrel reamed for the new cartridge. Changing barrels on just about any 1911 chambered in 45 ACP would shoot the .38/.45 Clerke. The idea was a fat case with plenty of volume necked down to a small bullet. The downside was after 3 to 4 loadings the case necks would split but it was a pretty hot little round for the day. Sig did the same thing but necking down a 40 allowing easy barrel changes for the 357 Sig.

So why not expand such cartridges to a short barreled carbine rifle?

While I wouldn't be first in line to buy one I bet it would sell and selling is what it is all about as long as there is enough demand in a large enough market.

Ron

BCRider
July 26, 2013, 10:39 PM
Another option that I'd like to see the numbers on is the 9x40.

As I understand it these are easily formed by the die set from .40S&W brass. And around here it's easy to pick up hockey socks worth of forgotten range pickup .40 brass. And that appeals to me far more than buying .357Sig brass then only getting to use it a few times before the pressure splits it.

If you enjoyed reading about ".357 Sig Carbines?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!