Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program


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usmarine0352_2005
June 10, 2011, 01:22 AM
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/?test=latestnews


Justice Officials in 'Panic Mode' as Hearing Nears on Failed Anti-Gun Trafficking Program

By William La Jeunesse

Published June 09, 2011

| FoxNews.com

Officials at the Department of Justice are in "panic mode," according to multiple sources, as word spreads that congressional testimony next week will paint a bleak and humiliating picture of Operation Fast and Furious, the botched undercover operation that left a trail of blood from Mexico to Washington, D.C.



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usmarine0352_2005
June 10, 2011, 01:24 AM
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Says they recovered roughly 700 guns at crimes scenes, 250 in the US, the rest in Mexico including five AK47's in Juarez.

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Bubbles
June 10, 2011, 08:04 AM
http://oversight.house.gov/index.php?option=com_jcalpro&Itemid=1&extmode=view&extid=292

Event: 'Operation Fast And Furious: Reckless Decisions, Tragic Outcomes'

Full Committee Hearing


Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011
Duration: 2 Hours
Contact Info:
(202) 225-5074

Email:
URL: http://oversight.house.gov

The Full Committee hearing entitled, "Operation Fast and Furious: Reckless Decisions, Tragic Outcomes" will take place at 9:30am on Wednesday, June 15 in room 2154 RHOB.

The hearing will be streamed live at http://oversight.house.gov.

ATBackPackin
June 10, 2011, 08:07 AM
My initial thoughts, and I truly hope I am wrong, is that the person(s) that were ultimately responsible for this atrocity will not be punished for their actions.

Shawn

ATBackPackin
June 10, 2011, 08:09 AM
Thanks for the info Bubbles. Short of the world coming to an end, I will most definitely be tuning into that.

Shawn

HGUNHNTR
June 10, 2011, 08:15 AM
How does flooding the Mexican drug cartel with "assault" weapons matter if guns don't cause crime. I seriously doubt if the cartels have one source for firearms. Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".

smalls
June 10, 2011, 08:22 AM
^ even though they could get them somewhere else, its kinda bad policy that the BATFE would be giving them the guns. They're certainly not giving me automatic guns, either.

CTPhil
June 10, 2011, 08:28 AM
BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".

How about: "The hearing is billed as "Reckless Decisions, Tragic Outcomes,"

I thought a hearing was to get facts, not to support a predetermined position. This thing is a farce right from the beginning.

Unistat
June 10, 2011, 08:37 AM
How does flooding the Mexican drug cartel with "assault" weapons matter if guns don't cause crime. I seriously doubt if the cartels have one source for firearms. Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".

Seriously? You don't see a problem with the ATF encouraging illegal gun sales that they have no way of tracking or preventing being used in a crime?

You can say what you will about Fox, but I haven't seen any other media reporting on this story.

Add that to how every news agency jumped on the whole "we supply 90% of illegal guns to Mexico, we need more gun control" garbage and I'd say that Fox is at least following a story through to the end.

Rest in peace, Agent Terry.

EmbarkChief
June 10, 2011, 09:36 AM
Add that to how every news agency jumped on the whole "we supply 90% of illegal guns to Mexico, we need more gun control" garbage and I'd say that Fox is at least following a story through to the end.


So true. The article did state that the ATF planted GPS devices in the stocks so they could track them. This may fall under the "great idea, bad execution" clause.

lemaymiami
June 10, 2011, 09:53 AM
As y'all watch this deal unfold you might want to keep in mind what I learned in 22 years in law enforcement.... Just like things in a courtroom - if any justice occurs, it will be purely incidental to everything else going on.

Every witness, with rare exception will have something they're trying to accomplish with their "testimony"... some will lie like troopers, a few will actually tell the truth, every one of them with an objective.... "it wasn't my decision (or fault)", "government over-reaches", "government does too little", etc. Trying to figure out the players without a scorecard will be really tough, but usually entertaining.

In many ways the entire process will resemble a kangaroo court with very pre-determined outcomes by one side or another. Glad I won't be involved in it. The best any of us can hope for is to get a clear look at exactly how the deal came about and maybe, just maybe, the folks responsible will find other employment.

Hocka Louis
June 10, 2011, 10:33 AM
To the anti-gun, anti-citizen ownership of guns, guy who mocks that guns don't kill people, people kill people... The Feds were giving them TO THE PEOPLE WHO TORTURE AND KILL PEOPLE! And Faux News is almost one of the only one's reporting this significant national and international story.

As to what will come out of a hearing... Could result in our government just appologizing for getting a US officer and scores or hundreds or thousands of Mexican citizens killed, or it could uncover a conspiracy that goes all the wa up to the White House that has to be prosecuted in January 2013.

Remember, the Left wants to ban guns and the Mexican drug cartels being supplied by us is just a recent sham. We went from 90% of the guns to now 70% of the guns coming from us. Funny, that is 70% of the 1/6th of the guns conficated over two years turned over to us for inspection. So, it is 12% as far as we can tell. And I'm even suspicious of that!

Deanimator
June 10, 2011, 11:21 AM
How does flooding the Mexican drug cartel with "assault" weapons matter if guns don't cause crime. I seriously doubt if the cartels have one source for firearms. Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".
So then similarly, If I INTENTIONALLY facilitate the arming of criminal gangs in Mexico, leading to the death of an American LEO, I shouldn't be prosecuted, RIGHT?

The BATFE has been PROFOUNDLY corrupt from the day of its founding and has remained so to this second.

Bubbles
June 10, 2011, 12:49 PM
FWIW CBS broke this story last February and has had much longer and more in-depth articles than FOX, including links to many of the letters from Issa and Grassley to the DoJ.

Here is today's story:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/10/earlyshow/main20070475.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;1

Searcher4851
June 10, 2011, 01:28 PM
The BATFE has been PROFOUNDLY corrupt from the day of its founding and has remained so to this second.

Hmmmmm, you really think that a government agency that was specifically put in place to help the politicos circumvent part of the Constitution could be corrupt? I wonder what might have caused that.

Heretic
June 10, 2011, 02:57 PM
This whole thing was to pump up numbers for propaganda. Most of the guns in use by the cartels are stolen from the Mexican military, carried out by deserting soldiers, who then go to work for the cartels. I think a large number of the US weapons come through the state dept., sold to the Mex gov.

Vern Humphrey
June 10, 2011, 03:22 PM
BATFE ought to have been abolished after the Waco fiasco.

Steve 48
June 10, 2011, 03:28 PM
I agree!!! The BATF can't do anything right.

Vern Humphrey
June 10, 2011, 03:53 PM
The problem is, they don't want to do anything right. They want to do everything wrong. They're out of control and have been for their entire existance.

HorseSoldier
June 10, 2011, 04:30 PM
At best this situation indicates that the powers that be at BATFE have incredibly poor judgment and decision making skills and must have somehow sat out any moment of education that touched on that whole "do the ends really justify the means?" topic.

But as was noted up thread, these hearing will just be an exercise in political theater where no one will ultimately really be held accountable for their actions and the family of the slain border patrol agent (to say nothing of the Mexican nationals who've been victimized with those weapons) will not get anything resembling justice. I doubt they even get an honest apology.

ErikO
June 10, 2011, 04:39 PM
And if anyone does 'fall on their sword' they'll be the first in line for a Presidential pardon. That is how this penny-opera story always goes.

Would it be too much to ask that it was Eric Holder? LOL

withdrawn34
June 10, 2011, 05:24 PM
The problem is, they don't want to do anything right. They want to do everything wrong. They're out of control and have been for their entire existance.

They've very much so in control. This is exactly what they wanted to happen. This way, they could blame law abiding gun owners and law abiding dealers, which has always been their singular objective.

They're only embarrassed because someone finally has the evidence to call them out on it. That wasn't part of their plan.

I hope any new agents thinking about joining the BATFE take a long, hard look at this and wonder whether being murdered by your bosses for political reasons is really worth a job or not.

M1key
June 10, 2011, 05:36 PM
COLUMBUS, N.M. -- The sheriff for Luna County is requesting that the entire Columbus Police Department step down until the federal investigation involving city leaders in a firearms trafficking ring is over.

Sheriff Raymond Cobos asked the remaining trustees in Columbus to vote on having the police department step down.

City leaders in the southern New Mexico village of Columbus were arrested Thursday in a federal raid investigation that involved smuggling firearms from the United States to Mexico, Luna County sheriff officials confirmed.

“I'm dismayed, I'm disheartened, certainly disillusioned,” said Cobos. “I think violation of the public's trust is something that I categorize as a pretty heinous crime.”

Mayor Eddie Espinoza, Police Chief Angelo Vega and city Rep. Jose Blas Gutierrez were arrested on allegations of firearm violations, stated the indictment that was released Thursday afternoon by the U.S. attorney's office in New Mexico. Espinoza was charged with one count of conspiracy, three counts of making false statements in connection with acquisition of firearms and three counts of firearms smuggling. Vega was charged with one count of conspiracy. Gutierrez was charged with one count of conspiracy, seventeen counts of making false statements in connection with acquisition of firearms and 19 counts of firearms smuggling.

In all, 10 people were arrested when law enforcement authorities executed a search warrant at their homes, one place of business and the office of the Columbus Police Department. Ian Garland, 50, of Chaparral, N.M.; Alberto Rivera, 40, of Columbus, N.M.; Miguel Carrillo, 30, of Columbus, N.M.; Ricardo Gutierrez, 25, of Columbus, N.M.; Manuel Ortega, 25, of Palomas, Mexico; Vicente Carreon, 26, of Columbus, N.M.; and Eva Lucie Gutierrez, 21, of Las Cruces were arrested.

http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/27148177/detail.html


M

JR47
June 10, 2011, 05:39 PM
The BATF, and now the BATFE was originally supposed to provide expertise on the subjects that it was named after. This combined several several smaller groups into one agency. Since they are a government agency, their mission statement is subject to change every election. Maybe not in so many words, but in actions. The leadership is chosen by the victorious party, and sets the agenda. Problem is, the bureaucrats are left in place year after year. Over time, they actually run the agency. It's them that have to go. Abolishing the agency would simply move it's responsibilities to the Secret Service, FBI, or back into smaller groups in Treasury. How, exactly, does that help?

Lose those responsible for the waste, fraud, and political maneuvering inside the agency, then see what needs to be done.

pharmer
June 10, 2011, 07:46 PM
"Abolishing the agency would simply move it's responsibilities to the Secret Service, FBI, or back into smaller groups in Treasury. How, exactly, does that help?"

In the hiring "food chain", top 10% go to SS, next 10% to FBI, next 10% ICE/BP, next 10% ATF. Thats why other FEDS call ATF "All The.......". Joe

Vern Humphrey
June 10, 2011, 08:50 PM
"Abolishing the agency would simply move it's responsibilities to the Secret Service, FBI, or back into smaller groups in Treasury. How, exactly, does that help?"
You split up the various duties -- the law enforcement and investigative duties go to the FBI -- no need for a specialized agency to concentrate on Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The tax duties go to the IRS.

HorseSoldier
June 10, 2011, 11:30 PM
Spread the bureaucracy and responsibility back into several different agencies and you also avoid the phenomenon of an organization using its remit to promote itself and chase budget money. That problem is not exclusive to the ATF, it's a general problem with bureaucracies.

wacki
June 10, 2011, 11:47 PM
How does flooding the Mexican drug cartel with "assault" weapons matter if guns don't cause crime. I seriously doubt if the cartels have one source for firearms. Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".

It's documented fact that they had other sources for guns. However, this is big deal given that the liberal media has been using Mexican violence as an argument for eliminating our rights. Despite what the legacy media says, it wasn't our freedom that was enabling the sale of thousands of guns to criminals ... purchased 40 at a time. It's the BATF intentionally choosing to not to do their job. Given the description of these sales, I doubt a lot of them were kosher.

Heretic
June 11, 2011, 01:43 PM
It seems to me that the primary purpose of the BATFE is to frighten law abiding citizens out of exercising their constitutional rights, pressing a political goal.

Using fear to achieve a political goal is defined by Websters as terrorism.

Is the BATFE a state sponsored terrorist organization?

Ole Coot
June 12, 2011, 09:50 AM
I personally don't think our "elected" or "appointed" officials really care about anyone except themselves and what we think doesn't bother them. Stir the pot and it isn't cream that floats to the top inside the beltway. We, average Americans are looked down upon by the present officials. I expect the new laws will start with "Thou Shalt Not......", We aren't intelligent enough to think for ourselves. I personally wouldn't want to be 50yrs younger today and miss the freedom I enjoyed.

jerkface11
June 12, 2011, 10:04 AM
It's pretty clear this administration allowed guns to make it into Mexico so that they could call for more gun control. My prediction is that they will throw some low level ATF agent under the bus and claim ignorance of everything.

jiminhobesound
June 12, 2011, 11:48 AM
Another example of the idiots being in control.

Ohio Gun Guy
June 12, 2011, 12:13 PM
I think it's worse. Just before this broke in the news, if you remember, the news drum beat was that US guns were fueling violence in Mexico, with the implication that the AWB should be renewed. They were using this to both try and track "illegal" gun trafficing and as a statistic to enact more stringet gun laws.... gun laws backed by "Facts" of their own making. Hillary Clinton even stated this position during a trip to Mexico City in March 2009. They were looking to begin the discussion of new gun control measures.

THAT is why it is such an embarrasment. It went far enough that they started to close the loop / tipped their hand. Then it all blew up in their face.

Her words from that visit, from her website: "I have discussed with the Secretary and with the President what the United States can do to reduce the demand for drugs in our own country, and to stop the flow of illegal guns across our border to Mexico. And I reported to them on the major steps that our government announced yesterday.... " Later in an answer to the earlier vauge statement..."Obviously, I am someone who supported the assault weapons ban which was passed in 1994, but it was passed with an expiration date and it expired ten years later. I, as a senator, supported measures to try to reinstate it. Politically, that is a very big hurdle in our Congress. But there may be some approaches that could be acceptable, and we are exploring those." http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2009a/03/120905.htm

Sky
June 12, 2011, 12:31 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597605

Six more LAWs were recovered on San Andres Island, Colombia in March 2008. Factory markings analysis of lot and serial numbers undertaken by DIA's Military Materiel Identification Division (CHUCKWAGON)/MIO-5) indicates that these LAWs were part of a shipment of fifty sent to the Honduran 2nd Infantry Battalion's TESON training element. The LAWs were originally transferred to Honduras in 1992 as part of a U.S. Foreign Military Sales program. (C/HND)


The dollar value of U.S. private-sector weapons shipments to Mexico in fiscal year 2009 exceeded the value of private arms shipments to two other major conflict regions elsewhere in the world, Iraq and Afghanistan, and even outpaced the value of arms shipped to one of the United States’ staunchest allies, Israel.

U.S. private-sector suppliers shipped a total of $177 million worth of defense articles — which includes items like military aircraft, firearms and explosives — to Mexico in fiscal 2009, which ended Sept. 30 of that year.

By comparison, over the same period, private arms companies in the U.S. shipped $40 million worth of weapons to Afghanistan; $126 million to Iraq; and $131 million to Israel.

In fact, Colombia, the source of most of the world’s cocaine and a major battlefront in the so-called war on drugs, received only $30 million in private-sector arms shipments from the U.S. in fiscal 2009.

The onslaught of weapons that hit Mexico in fiscal 2009 via these legal commercial exports is multiplied even further by the thousands of additional illegal weapons that the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) allegedly allowed to cross the border into Mexico, unchecked, as part of what appears to be a seriously flawed operation known as Fast and Furious — which was launched in October 2009.

Sky
June 12, 2011, 05:43 PM
Even with that grim report coming out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala way back in 2006, the U.S. State Department sanctioned the delivery of up to $36 million in arms shipments, via private U.S. companies, to that nation in fiscal years 2008 and 2009, according to government reports http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2011/05/us-drug-war-policy-planting-seeds-civil-society-destruction

And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.

From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:


Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers

Erik M
June 12, 2011, 06:49 PM
My initial thoughts, and I truly hope I am wrong, is that the person(s) that were ultimately responsible for this atrocity will not be punished for their actions.

ShawnUnfortunately I believe you will be correct. From what I heard on the radio, field agents were telling their superiors that the plan was going awry, FFL's including J&G Sales were involved and were becoming increasingly suspicious, and yet it want stopped until a whistle blower finally came forward. Who knows how many weapons truly made it across the border.

xfyrfiter
June 12, 2011, 08:44 PM
All of the alphabet agencies are as corrupt as money can make them. They have the full support of the UN and George Soros's ilk. These agencies all need to be disbanded and unfunded, our country would be much better off in the long run.

N003k
June 12, 2011, 08:56 PM
Anyone know if the hearings tomorrow will be on any of the CSPANs?

Pfletch83
June 12, 2011, 09:19 PM
I argued with many a leftist Moon bat over this issue,and they seemed to stop talking (for a bit,until the logic notch started slipping back to it's normal position) when I suggested legalization of drugs as a better way to stop the violence...by taking the money out of it for the cartels,no money means no guns,as well as ammo and other such things.

They started foaming at the mouth from the pure simplicity of my solution (that's what I gathered from the responses they had).

Why trample on the rights of people in our country because the civilian population of another country can't handle their own problems?

:evil:

withdrawn34
June 13, 2011, 04:35 PM
You split up the various duties -- the law enforcement and investigative duties go to the FBI -- no need for a specialized agency to concentrate on Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The tax duties go to the IRS.

Not to mention we already have the DEA, yet a separate agency handles tobacco and alcohol? And that agency also deals with firearms and explosives :confused:

JohnBT
June 13, 2011, 04:51 PM
"Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? "

Are nominations still open for dumb post of the month?

So they have other guns? So what? Is that a reason for our government to give them hundreds and hundreds more?

JohnBT
June 13, 2011, 04:53 PM
"All of the alphabet agencies are as corrupt as money can make them. They have the full support of the UN and George Soros's ilk."

Maybe it wasn't the dumbest. How do people dream up this nonsense?

Carl N. Brown
June 13, 2011, 05:21 PM
if the past is prologue....

In the Waco affair, ATF Director Higgins promised Treasury Undersecretary Noble that the raid would be called off if secrecy was compromised, and an undercover agent would be in the compound to warn if the element of surprise was lost.

The morning of 28 Feb 1993, ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez warned his bosses, Houston BATF SAC Phillip Chojnacki and his ASAC Chuck Sarabyn, that Koresh had been warned that a raid was coming. Rodriguez expected the raid to be cancelled.

Instead, Sarabyn and Chojnacki went ahead with the raid, four agents and six Davidians died that day. After the fact Sarabyn and Chojnacki fabricated "evidence" to blame ATF agents Rodriguez and Dyer for their bad decisions.

During the Waco hearings Rodriguez openly called Sarabyn and Chojnacki (pronounced Woe-nah-ski) liars. A dramatic point in the Waco: Rules of Engagement documentary.

....the prospects for the future are dim.

End result: Sarabyn and Chonacki kept their jobs, their pensions, and had all mention of Waco expunged from their service record.

The only Fed ever disciplined over Waco was AUSA Bill Johnston who blew the whistle over use of incendiary XM651 gas grenades by the FBI on the last day of the Waco siege.

The Waco hearings were a love fest between the Democrats and their favorite agency, ATF, and their favorite policy, gun control.

My bets on Gunwalker aka Fast and Furious:

The Whistle blowers will catch hell.

The gun dealers who cooperated with ATF will be made out as the villians.

No one at ATF who made bad decisions will pay for it.

Carl N. Brown
June 13, 2011, 05:27 PM
The vast majority of weapons in the hands of Los Zetas and the Mexican drug cartels are military weapons supplied by the US Government to the military and police of Mexico, Guatemala, and other Latin American states corrupted by drug cartel bribes, threats and extortion.

So the US Government wants to blame civilian gun dealers and offer a renewal of the War on Guns (aka Assault Weapon Ban) as a solution to the political corruption rampant south of the border.

Dr.Rob
June 13, 2011, 07:56 PM
Just from the numbers I saw today, we are talking a handful of purchasers buying thousands of firearms, every one of which ATFE said 'let them go' IN SPITE of sellers reporting them to ATFE.

This scandal is getting bigger and bigger.

Vern Humphrey
June 14, 2011, 09:01 AM
ATFE needs to be abolished -- it would have a salutary effect on other Alphabet agencies.

As Voltaire said, "The English sometimes shoot an Admiral to encourage the others." Let's abolish a federal agency to encourage the others to follow the law and the Constitution.

Sky
June 14, 2011, 09:06 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597958

New slanted news artical on guns in Mexico from the Associated Press.

Heretic
June 14, 2011, 02:56 PM
Voltaire also said "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong".

USAF_Vet
June 14, 2011, 04:53 PM
that Voltaire was a smart guy.

mizzlep
June 14, 2011, 08:36 PM
I see all these state attorney generals suing the federal government over the new health care law. Why won't they sue over the unconstitutional gun laws?

Gun owners need to focus their energy and attention on the states. I'm waiting for the day when a Governor declares federal agencies have NO law enforcement jurisdiction inside their states.

The only path to restoration of liberty is through the states. Washington is too easily bought.

usmarine0352_2005
June 14, 2011, 11:18 PM
.

Update:



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/14/house-panel-releases-scathing-report-on-fast-and-furious-gun-operation-sure-to/



House Panel Releases Scathing Report on 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation, Sure to Anger Mexico

By William Lajeunesse

Published June 14, 2011

| FoxNews.com


Hoping to score a knockout blow against the Mexican cartels, U.S. law enforcement created "Operation Fast and Furious" to stop gun smuggling by allowing the weapons into Mexico, thereby exposing the entire cartel network to prosecution, according to a new congressional report on the U.S. program.



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Liberation
June 15, 2011, 05:35 AM
How does flooding the Mexican drug cartel with "assault" weapons matter if guns don't cause crime. I seriously doubt if the cartels have one source for firearms. Without these guns the cartels would most likely resemble the girl scouts..right? BTW I love the sensationalized title afforded the article by Faux "news".

Because the ATF tries to treat every gun buyer like they are a criminal and the left specifically attacks gun dealers as wanting to sell guns to criminals.

It speaks a lot of hypocrisy when they are specifically giving guns to the criminals.

It also begs the question, why? Why is the ATF investigating cartels? This is somebody trying to make a name for themselves and hopefully it will be on a orange
jumpsuit.

I also think it has to do with jealousy. We are jealous of the cartels, because they found away to get the ATF to give them guns instead of take them and drag their ass when its time to give them back

J-Bar
June 15, 2011, 10:20 AM
Please avoid painting with too broad a brush.

There are good people in the BATFE. One of my best friends is a retired agent.

They have to follow orders just like those in the armed forces. I'm sure many don't like the orders they are given.

It's easy for us to say they should resign rather than carry out orders with which they disagree. Tougher to do in real life.

Place the blame where it lies...at the policy making level, not the field agent level.

M-Cameron
June 15, 2011, 10:30 AM
They have to follow orders just like those in the armed forces. I'm sure many don't like the orders they are given.


of course not all ATF agents are bad people....heck, there are even cases where an agent was begging for permission to make an arrest...and being subsequently told to stand down


"....In one case, Agent Pete Forcelli told the interviewers, an agent was making insistent calls over the radio, saying that gun traffickers had recognized him and begging for permission to stop the suspects. "But he was told to not stop the car with the guns in it," he said....."

".....Dodson said the target was followed picking up money, buying guns and dropping them off somewhere else but recognized he was being followed and made obvious attempts to evade the surveillance. "I mean, there is a verbal screaming match over the radio about how -- what are you talking about? There is no better time or reason to pull this guy over than right now," Dodson related......"


http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-0615-gunrunner,0,732245.story

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 10:34 AM
Please avoid painting with too broad a brush.

There are good people in the BATFE. One of my best friends is a retired agent.

They have to follow orders just like those in the armed forces. I'm sure many don't like the orders they are given.

It's easy for us to say they should resign rather than carry out orders with which they disagree. Tougher to do in real life.

Place the blame where it lies...at the policy making level, not the field agent level.

The overwhelming body of evidence indicates that you're not just wrong, but COLOSSALLY wrong.

Past investigations into the behavior of individual agents indicates that they seem to have a lot of fun doing what they do, legal or not.

EVERY individual is PERSONALLY responsible for his own actions, and for obeying the law. "I was just following orders" is no more of an excuse for a BATFE agent to allow guns to KNOWINGLY be sold to violent felons than it is for the guy in the meat department of your local grocery store to sell rotten hamburger with glass and nails in it.

Stop making excuses for these jackasses. They won't hesitate to come after a citizen for the most trivial of technical offenses, but you want to give them a pass for KILLING somebody, and an LEO at that.

Careers and lives need to be destroyed over this.

Heretic
June 15, 2011, 10:50 AM
I'm told there were plenty of really nice people in the Nazi party in Germany in 1939. Family men who loved their children and had picnics in the park.

Look what happened!

M-Cameron
June 15, 2011, 10:58 AM
I'm told there were plenty of really nice people in the Nazi party in Germany in 1939. Family men who loved their children and had picnics in the park.

Look what happened!

not all nazis were evil either.......the bad ones continued to be bad.....the good ones continued to be good......

there were even a nice group who plotted to take down hitler......

your political party, your job, where you live, what you ate for lunch.....have nothing to do with whether you are a good person or not.

usmarine0352_2005
June 15, 2011, 12:05 PM
.


Nice to see it's getting headlines from all the major news outlets and they are all big front page stories.


http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/us.fast.and.furious/index.html?hpt=hp_c1




Lawmakers zero in on ATF gun trafficking operation

By the CNN Wire Staff

June 15, 2011 10:21 a.m. EDT

Washington (CNN) -- A controversial strategy by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to link gun buyers in the United States to Mexican drug cartels will be scrutinized Wednesday at a Congressional hearing.

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armoredman
June 15, 2011, 12:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi0_HjDHa-Y

Opening statement from the hearing.

DammitBoy
June 15, 2011, 12:25 PM
They've very much so in control. This is exactly what they wanted to happen. This way, they could blame law abiding gun owners and law abiding dealers, which has always been their singular objective.



This +11

This was a concerted effort with an edict from on high to increase the amount of firearms crossing the mexican border by the Obama administration so they could get traction for a new AWB. Nothing less.

Sky
June 15, 2011, 12:32 PM
For whatever reason the ATF guys act the way they do it is their superiors who are responsible just as a captain of a ship or the commander of an airbase. Your personnel screw up you are relieved of your command if the action of said personnel is not rectified by some Monday morning quarter back comity in agreement with the commanders remeidal actions.

And this pipeline of arms was put in motion even while reports continue to come out of the U.S. Embassy in Guatemala painting a dire picture of the continued collapse of civil society in that nation due to the drug war.

From a State Department cable drafted in early 2009:


Confronted by the threat from three narco-trafficking groups, including recently arrived "Zetas" from Mexico, the local Rule of Law (ROL) apparatus in the [Guatemalan] northern city of Coban [Guatemala] is no longer capable of dealing with the most serious kinds of crime. What is happening there is typical of many rural areas of Guatemala. Sources tell us that Coban's police are corrupt and allied with traffickers, and sometimes even provide them escort. Some judges and prosecutors are too frightened to do their jobs properly; others are in league with the traffickers

Guatemala is but one of many circumstances.

On July 17, 1980, for the first time in history, drug traffickers actually took control of a nation. It was not just any nation, it was Bolivia, at the time the source of virtually 100 percent of the cocaine entering the United States. The “Cocaine Coup” was the bloodiest in Bolivia’s history. It came at a time that the US demand for cocaine was skyrocketing to the point that, in order to satisfy it, suppliers had to consolidate raw materials and production and get rid of inefficient producers. Its result was the creation of what came to be known as La Corporacion — The Corporation — in essence, the General Motors or OPEC of Cocaine.

Immediately after the coup production of cocaine increased massively until, in short order, it outstripped supply. It was the true beginning of the cocaine and crack “plague” as the media and hack politicians never tire of calling it. July 17, 1980 is truly a day that should live in equal infamy along with December 7th, 1941. There are few events in history that have caused more and longer lasting damage to our nation.

What America was never told, in spite of mainstream media having the information and a prime, inside source who was ready to go public with the story, was that the coup was carried out with the aid and participation of Central Intelligence. The source would also testify and prove that, in order to carry out that coup, the CIA, State and Justice departments had to combine forces to protect their drug dealing assets by destroying a DEA investigation—US v Roberto Suarez, et al. How do I know? I was that inside source.

__________________

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 12:53 PM
not all nazis were evil either.......the bad ones continued to be bad.....the good ones continued to be good......

there were even a nice group who plotted to take down hitler......

your political party, your job, where you live, what you ate for lunch.....have nothing to do with whether you are a good person or not.
If you willingly and knowingly take part in a corrupt organization, YOU are corrupt.

It's just as simple as that.

M-Cameron
June 15, 2011, 01:02 PM
If you willingly and knowingly take part in a corrupt organization, YOU are corrupt.

It's just as simple as that.

it sure must be nice to have the financial and physical means to never compromise your beliefs.....for anything.....ever.

....most of us are not so fortunate.......and a lot of us have to take jobs where we dont always agree with managements policies.......

i honestly doubt that low level agent has the means to simply up and quit his job.....and hope he finds another one.

Sky
June 15, 2011, 01:07 PM
On 3/3/11, President Evo Morales vowing that DEA would not be permitted to enter Bolivia, cited the book, La Guerra Falsa (The Big White Lie) as proof of CIA’S use of the War on Drugs to manipulate his and other governments.

When Bolivian president Evo Morales held up the book "La Guerra Falsa" (The Big White Lie) by Michael Levine for the photo that would rocket around the world, claiming that it was proof of DEA and CIA protecting the biggest drug traffickers in the world and using the drug war to manipulate, control and even overthrow governments, he was wrong about one thing: "The Big White Lie" does not blame DEA; it lays the blame exclusively on CIA. [Emphasis added.]

… From author's Introduction of The Big White Lie: 


"In these pages I will lead you through the deep cover odyssey that I lived for six years. You will hear the words I heard, witness what I and others did, and learn the real reasons behind our cocaine and crack epidemic — the ones your elected representatives hid from you in secret sessions behind closed doors and a misuse of the secrecy laws that must have had our founding fathers twisting in their graves.

"I will give you a fly-on-the-wall look at how the CIA perverts the American justice system by protecting drug dealers and murderers from prosecution; at how even federal judges and prosecutors alleged to have violated narcotic laws were protected from investigation; at how a beautiful South American woman called 'the Queen of Cocaine,' by Pablo Escobar, responsible for shipping more cocaine into the United States than any one person I had ever known, was able to seduce the CIA into destroying her competitors, protecting her from prosecution, and paying her a small fortune in taxpayer dollars for her 'services'; at how the only ruling government of Bolivia that ever wanted to help DEA defeat their drug barons was paid for its faith in our sincerity with torture and death at the hands of CIA-sponsored paramilitary terrorists under the command of fugitive Nazi war criminals. And finally, you will realize, as I did, the ultimate betrayal of America; how, without the CIA's protection and support the resultant crack/cocaine epidemic might never have occurred.

"Without further ado, enter the inner sanctum of the biggest, whitest, deadliest lie of them all: the war on drugs."


SKY Writes; Once upon a time I was having supper with a rather high ranking Guatemalan Air Force Officer and we were discussing the fall of the Soviet Union. It was well known at the time you could buy Russian state of the art fighter jets with spare engines for $4 million bucks. We both agreed that 4 million for a 25 million dollar aircraft was one hell of a deal. But he was told our state department would not let them ( Guatemalan supposedly sovereign Government) purchase these aircraft because we (the U.S.) supplied the foreign aid and we were not buying no stinkin Russian aircraft even if they were $20 million cheaper than what the U.S. was selling them..We laughed and at the time it really was funny but....We as average citizens have no idea of the power our country has over Central and South America countries.

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2011/03/bolivian-president-uses-former-dea-agent-s-book-send-message-world

Again we need a major overhaul of many government agencies not just the ATF. Will it happen; you decide......If just 10% of the whistle blowers that have come forward over the years are telling the truth ( they usually bring documents with them) then the sordid tales that have been told are enough to make a grown man cry. THERE ARE NO NOBLE WARS, ONLY NOBLE WARRIORS.

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 01:23 PM
it sure must be nice to have the financial and physical means to never compromise your beliefs.....for anything.....ever.
It sure must be nice to have the ability to put mere financial considerations over human life.

....most of us are not so fortunate.......and a lot of us have to take jobs where we dont always agree with managements policies.......
"Policies" which are FELONIES, and which in fact led to MULTIPLE DEATHS.

The one time a superior instructed me to do something which would likely have gotten somebody killed, I actively subverted his order.

i honestly doubt that low level agent has the means to simply up and quit his job.....and hope he finds another one.
Yeah, what's innocent human life compared to you having a job?

Is there ANY limit to this concept for you? If one of the supervisors who perpetrated this atrocity ordered a subordinate to kill one of the whistleblowers so that he couldn't testify, should he do it? And don't you DARE say it couldn't happen, because that's EXACTLY what happened in the Chicago PD SOS scandal. The ringleader of the Chicago PD home invasion/kidnapping gang tried to arrange the contract murder of some of his co-conspirators so that they couldn't testify against him.

You are upholding the most profound corruption of law enforcement, up to and including the deaths of innocent people, and for purely crass material gain.

I regularly stood in front of 200+ basic trainees and told them that they had a DUTY to disobey an illegal order. It's what sets us apart from the guys with lightning bolts on their collars.

But what the heck, I'm sure you could stand in front of the family of that murdered Border Patrol agent and tell them that your paycheck is of FAR greater value than his LIFE.

M-Cameron
June 15, 2011, 01:26 PM
Is there ANY limit to this concept for you? If one of the supervisors who perpetrated this atrocity ordered a subordinate to kill one of the whistleblowers so that he couldn't testify, should he do it? And don't you DARE say it couldn't happen, because that's EXACTLY what happened in the Chicago PD SOS scandal. The ringleader of the Chicago PD home invasion/kidnapping gang tried to arrange the contract murder of some of his co-conspirators so that they couldn't testify against him.

You are upholding the most profound corruption of law enforcement, up to and including the deaths of innocent people, and for purely crass material gain.

I regularly stood in front of told 200+ basic trainees that they had a DUTY to disobey an illegal order. It's what sets us apart from the guys with lightning bolts on their collars.

But what the heck, I'm sure you could stand in front of the family of that murdered Border Patrol agent and tell them that your paycheck is of FAR greater value than his LIFE.

your saying the ATF agent killed someone.......HE DIDNT......a scumbag mexican drug lord did......

why stop at the ATF agent.....why not go after the FFLs who sold the guns.....sure, they were told to by the ATF.....but they could have easily not sold them...if they didnt sell the guns, the drug dealers wouldnt have had guns to kill people with......heck.....they may loose their FFL license.....but im sure they can find other jobs.


do some people need to loose their jobs for this fiasco....sure, but not everyone.

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 01:30 PM
it sure must be nice to have the financial and physical means to never compromise your beliefs.....for anything.....ever.
"BELIEFS"??? How about FEDERAL LAW?

Can you show me the portion of the relevant laws regarding illegal trafficking in arms which says, "unless you'd lose your job"?

Your value system is indistinguishable from that of the "flash mobs" currently terrorizing the public in Chicago. You're going to "get paid", regardless of the LAW, never mind mere right and wrong. Innocent human life isn't even a consideration for you.

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 01:31 PM
your saying the ATF agent killed someone.......HE DIDNT......a scumbag mexican drug lord did......
Hey, I didn't kill that snitch! Sammy the Bull did... with the heater I GAVE him.

Try THAT one in court.

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 01:34 PM
why stop at the ATF agent.....why not go after the FFLs who sold the guns.....sure, they were told to by the ATF.....
In fact, I would NOT have made the sales and would have eagerly told the BATFE to pound sand. But then I'm not one to trust the employees of an agency which once made an OFFICIAL TRAINING VIDEO on how to LIE UNDER OATH.

The FFLs have a viable coercion defense. Not the BATFE types. They were ACTIVE and WILLING participants.

Sky
June 15, 2011, 01:41 PM
Good thing about all this stuff; more and more people are becoming aware of ill doing and are wanting a change. The problem is the bureaucrats run everything and in many instances tell our newly elected government officials how and what they can do.

Like an assistant under secretary of state once said to me when asked what he thought of the new Politically appointed Secretary of State, his response was, " Just another old man in an old suit who might last 4 years and then he will go back to some corporation; I will still be here taking care of business". Not his exact words but that is as close as I can remember what he said. Again unless some of the big boys on capital hill insist on a full blown investigation there will be a few sacrificial lambs toasted for public consumption and it will be business as usual for the puppet masters.

Deanimator
June 15, 2011, 01:48 PM
Again unless some of the big boys on capital hill insist on a full blown investigation there will be a few sacrificial lambs toasted for public consumption and it will be business as usual for the puppet masters.
Fortunately, there's some REAL political hay to be made here, including the possible elimination of Holder. Hopefully that drives this investigation far enough to accomplish something tangible.

I don't care what their motivations are as long as they do the right thing.

atblis
June 15, 2011, 02:18 PM
Again unless some of the big boys on capital hill insist on a full blown investigation there will be a few sacrificial lambs toasted for public consumption and it will be business as usual for the puppet masters.
Sounds about right to me.

M-Cameron
June 15, 2011, 02:45 PM
In fact, I would NOT have made the sales and would have eagerly told the BATFE to pound sand. But then I'm not one to trust the employees of an agency which once made an OFFICIAL TRAINING VIDEO on how to LIE UNDER OATH.

The FFLs have a viable coercion defense. Not the BATFE types. They were ACTIVE and WILLING participants.

but the FFLs did sell the guns........so you are telling me you want every one of them to have their FFLs pulled?

lemaymiami
June 15, 2011, 02:56 PM
Anyone prepping for the upcoming congressional festiviities (otherwise known as hearings..) should read Bonfire of the Vanities (not sure of the author) or watch the movie.... Everything in the court scenes in that entertainment is similar to what I actually saw attending real court sessions for many years....

I'd like to be wrong here but my expectations about these current hearings aren't very high....

Tinker
June 15, 2011, 02:59 PM
Watching Fox now. Looks to me that the government is going to make lemonade from these "Fast/Furious" lemons. Looks to me that someone will fall on a sword, but that the main spin will be directed toward a new AWB ban. Crafty little fellers.

Heretic
June 15, 2011, 03:19 PM
I'm sure some of those "scumbag mexican drug lords" are realy nice guys. I'm sure they love their families, and are just doing these bad things to keep their jobs. We shouldn't fault them for just following orders, should we? (sarcasm intended)

I'm 100% with Deanimator on this one!

<MoA
June 15, 2011, 05:37 PM
Wow! Right about now, as our tenuous socio-economic "sitch" degrades before our very eyes, I'd love to be able to just go out and purchase, on the American side of our strong southern border, a few Stingers, an RPG or five, a full-auto Thompson and and M-40! Perhaps a slightly used M1 Abrams? Even if only to rent it for a weekend bank robbery or the like?

Apparently it's easy, and with my FFL, it should be a breeze, don'tcha think? I shouldn't even have to fill in any danged ATF forms, apparently. Just politely ask for the firearms, and I'm in!

(What a media-run circus! And to think that the typical 6:00 pm News Hour American media-watchers buy this all, hook, line and sinker! Question: whatever happened to critical thinking? We're doomed, for sure!)

HD Fboy
June 15, 2011, 07:32 PM
I watched about 60% of the committee hearing today. After watching it is apparent to any and everyone that this was a pure political move to justify taking away gun rights from average citizens. I wonder who will fall on the sword? It won't be Obama, Clinton, Holder, Napalitono, etc. who obviously cooked this little operation up.

I talked to a guy today and he was talking about the millions of guns moving into Mexico from the US every day. I called BS. My question, why would you go to the trouble/expense of smuggling guns into Mexico from the US when you could have a whole Conex container from China, Pakistan, etc. for the cost of 50 rifles from the US. Also these would be Machine Guns not Semi Autos from the US. He looked at me for a moment, and said "gee your right, I didn't think about that."

I am waiting for the other shoe to drop, Whit until it comes to light that the smugglers were encouraged to buy the guns in the US by CIA assets. Or, that the US government paid for the weapons.

clutch
June 15, 2011, 07:46 PM
It may be lost on many that the government is now the home of true believers. Those that value perceived environmental improvements at the cost of jobs and disposable income.

Those that would rather have a wolf live in your space than you and they work though various government agencies.

Batfe, oh that is the home of those that hate guns, I'm sure there are good people in that organization but they are not running it and never will. The ones that want to take away freedom seem to be way more dedicated to their goals than we are.

Most of us do not want a big government or want to work for it. That is our Achilles heel.

Clutch

DammitBoy
June 15, 2011, 08:22 PM
In fact, I would NOT have made the sales and would have eagerly told the BATFE to pound sand.

What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?

Sam1911
June 15, 2011, 08:40 PM
What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?


Absolutely nothing. Happens all the time. A dealer can legally refuse a sale if he/she feels anything is amiss.

Redneck with a 40
June 15, 2011, 09:21 PM
My question is "who's getting fired and who's going to jail"? The ATF was clearly involved in felonious activity here, head's need to roll, lets start with Eric Holder.

ATBackPackin
June 15, 2011, 10:26 PM
Does anyone have a link to the hearing from today? I found one on YouTube, but it was only 30 minutes long and I thought this was supposed to be a two hour hearing.

Anyone? Anyone? ( in my best Ben Stein voice)

Deanimator
June 16, 2011, 12:51 AM
What happens to an FFL if the background check is approved by the BATFE and the FFL refuses to sell the firearm?
To the best of my knowledge, the BATFE doesn't "approve" background checks.

What the BATFE did was to KNOWINGLY tell dealers to IGNORE disqualifications and suspicious behavior by purchasers.

If your local grocery store KNOWS that produce has e-coli, they're under NO obligation to sell that produce, regardless of what local, state or federal food inspectors say.

If an FFL knows that a transfer is improper, they have ZERO duty to go through with it.

Regarding the sales by the FFLs where they TOLD the BATFE ahead of time that they were going to be improper, the FFLs have virtually no legal exposure. Any prosecution, and indeed any impairment of their licenses would certainly be found to be the product of blatant entrapment. It would almost certainly be actionable in civil court by the FFLs.

The BATFE and any of its employees who did NOT object are completely and absolutely culpable for the long series of crimes committed in this debacle, up to and including the death of the Border Patrol agent.

The defenders of the BATFE in this matter are of a kind with the defenders of the perpetrators of the Malmedy Massacre.

Heretic
June 16, 2011, 01:00 AM
"What the BATFE did was to KNOWINGLY tell dealers to IGNORE disqualifications and suspicious behavior by purchasers."

The BATFE assured these FFL's that they had the situation under control, and wanted the transfers to go through to assist in a sting operation. The FFL's believed they were helping law enforcement catch the crooks.

Deanimator
June 16, 2011, 01:41 AM
The FFL's believed they were helping law enforcement catch the crooks.
When in fact, what they were doing was [inadvertently] helping the BATFE arm narco-terrorists in Mexico.

HorseSoldier
June 16, 2011, 03:47 AM
I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?

Bubbles
June 16, 2011, 09:27 AM
I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?
1) You would have to find someone with standing to sue (not likely), and 2) the plaintiff would still have to get past the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

DammitBoy
June 16, 2011, 11:08 AM
I wonder if cooperation with the BATFE in this case will expose any FFL holders to civil liability? If the .gov going to indemnify them if they are sued?

My understanding is that several FFL's are already in dnager of losing their businesses because the BATFE is threatening action.

Deanimator
June 16, 2011, 12:17 PM
My understanding is that several FFL's are already in dnager of losing their businesses because the BATFE is threatening action.
If any of them raised documented objections to the BATFE and were subsequently told to allow improper transfers, I predict that they will both ultimately keep their FFLs AND get a massive infusion of cash, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

HorseSoldier
June 16, 2011, 02:09 PM
1) You would have to find someone with standing to sue (not likely),

The family of the border patrol agent killed with one of the Fast & Furious guns would seem at least one such group.

and 2) the plaintiff would still have to get past the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act.

Does the act include protecting FFLs from civil liability when they knowingly participate in illegal sales? Did the ATF provide any get out of jail free documentation in writing to the FFLs involved, or did they proceed with NCIC denied or known strawman purchases based on verbal go aheads from the ATF (that seems a bad idea . . .).

Deanimator
June 16, 2011, 04:56 PM
Any FFL who did anything on the word of anybody from the BATFE alone is a fool and deserves to lose his license. I wouldnt do anything without SIGNED instructions.

DammitBoy
June 16, 2011, 05:33 PM
The ATF blames the FFL's that cooperated;

HOUSTON - When it comes to selling weaponry to the drug thugs of Mexico, Houston gun dealer Carter's Country has been labeled a profit hungry merchant willing to turn a blind eye to bad guys south of the border.

A Washington Post investigative story linked 115 firearms confiscated over the past two years by Mexican authorities waging the drug war to Carter's Country outlets. That makes the largest independent gun dealer in the region among the biggest sources of fire power for the murderous cartels.

It certainly looks bad, until you hear a different side of the story.

"Let me tell you something about Carter's Country. They have been co-operating with ATF from the get go," says attorney Dick Deguerin who represents Carter's Country owner, Bill Carter.

Deguerin says the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms asked Carter's Country to complete transactions, even when sales people strongly suspected the weapons were headed to Mexican drug gangs.

"They were told to go through with what they considered to be questionable sales. They were told to go through with sales of three or more assault rifles at the same time or five or more 9 millimeter guns at the same time or a young Hispanic male paying in cash. It's all profiling, but they went through with it," said Deguerin.

"They reported them promptly, either while the transaction was going on or soon there after. They did this for months and months and months. Went through with the sales because the ATF told them to go through with the sales," he added.

Deguerin say at the ATF's request, Carter's Country employees followed some customers into parking lots and recorded license plate numbers.

"If the ATF had used the information that Carter's Country developed for them they could have stopped these guns from going across the border," insists Deguerin.

A spokesperson for ATF would neither confirm nor deny the co-operation agreement with Carter's Country, but did say "I don't think we would issue a blanket directive.”

That's left Deguerin's client feeling unjustly vilified and betrayed.

usmarine0352_2005
June 26, 2011, 06:05 PM
.

Status Update:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/25/atf-director-melson-reportedly-resisting-pressure-to-step-down/?test=latestnews




ATF Director Melson Reportedly Resisting Pressure to Step Down

Published June 25, 2011

| FoxNews.com

The acting director of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is standing his ground and resisting pressure to step down amid a gun trafficking scandal, sources close to the situation tell the Los Angeles Times.

.

Deanimator
June 26, 2011, 06:10 PM
Status Update:
There's no honor among thieves or killers.

I fervently hope that the entire loathsome gang of cretins gets into an all against all razor fight on the edge of a legal volcano, and that the survivor(s) then fall in, Holder first and foremost. With any luck, he'll drag Obama into the abyss with him.

Vern Humphrey
June 26, 2011, 06:17 PM
Resign? He should be prosecuted!

Heretic
June 27, 2011, 02:17 PM
Why do you suppose the DOJ doesn't want him talking to congress?

HorseSoldier
June 27, 2011, 02:21 PM
Because he knows all the ins and outs on who knew what and when, and they just tried to throw him under the bus.

Vern Humphrey
June 27, 2011, 06:25 PM
Why do you suppose the DOJ doesn't want him talking to congress?
Did Al Capone want his accountant talking to the IRS?:rolleyes:

usmarine0352_2005
June 27, 2011, 06:39 PM
.

Status update:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/27/atf-to-fire-gunrunner-whistleblower/


'Project Gunrunner' Whistleblower Says ATF Sent Him Termination Notice

By Maxim Lott

Published June 27, 2011

| FoxNews.com


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is being accused of retaliating against an agent who helped publicize the agency’s role in allowing thousands of guns to cross the U.S. border and fall into the hands of Mexican drug gangs.


.

Vern Humphrey
June 27, 2011, 07:03 PM
There's another name for that -- witness tampering. ATFE high level management and the Attorney General should stand trial for that, if for nothing else.

Sky
June 27, 2011, 07:52 PM
Fox news reported;

The agent, Vince Cefalu, who has spoken out about the ATF's so-called "Project Gunrunner" scandal, says he was served with termination papers just last week, and he calls the move politically motivated.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/27/atf-to-fire-gunrunner-whistleblower/#ixzz1QWVgftmI

OOOPS! posted already!

Ignition Override
June 27, 2011, 08:26 PM
Deanimator:
Your solution would help slow the US' downward spiral.

Compared to the ruthless craving for power and use of random, arbitrary methods used by Holder and some ATF mgmt. to showcase their status as being above the law and unaccountable, leaders of the "Peoples' Republic of China" appear to be more moderate.

How do we create another Magna Carta as was done by English barons against King John in 1215 at Runnymede, but this time will impose tighter limitations on the abuse of power by federal appointees?

Neverwinter
June 27, 2011, 10:51 PM
Deanimator:
Your solution would help slow the US' downward spiral.

Compared to the ruthless craving for power and use of random, arbitrary methods used by Holder and some ATF mgmt. to showcase their status as being above the law and unaccountable, leaders of the "Peoples' Republic of China" appear to be more moderate.

How do we create another Magna Carta as was done by English barons against King John in 1215 at Runnymede, but this time will impose tighter limitations on the abuse of power by federal appointees?
It's been spiraling downward since Reagan invoked the strong unitary executive concept that validates expansive executive power. It continued when George W Bush did the same. That failed perspective should not be continued.

lemaymiami
June 28, 2011, 12:43 PM
Can't agree with the last comment at all - but he's welcome to his opinion....

On another note I caught an interview today on Fox with both the ATF "whistleblower" Agent Cefalu, and another short piece with Rep Issa.... The information they provided should be on the daily 24 cycle on Fox as well as in writing on Fox's website news article.

What really caught my ear wasn't Cefalu's assertion since I have no way of judging whether it's credible. What Issa said really got me... he said clearly that all of the ATF agents they've interviewed gave full info and said they'd disagreed with the project. Everyone at the next level up, particularly in DOJ, were not forthcoming at all.... I'm understating here if anyone doubts me.

As a retired cop who was at the management level for the final seven years of a 22 year career.... I'd expect to be facing a grand jury in this situation..... Of course that's not how the feds have ever done things (I was on the job from the very end of 1973 to October 1995 so that's the period I'm familiar with). I'm really looking forward to the testimony of the acting head of ATF on this.... wouldn't it be amazing if he actually spoke up.

Deanimator
June 28, 2011, 01:27 PM
wouldn't it be amazing if he actually spoke up
Obama and Holder appear to be dragging him bodily toward the path of the bus, and he appears to be leaving heel marks in the sidewalk.

If he doesn't have some kind of "accident", there's EVERY likelihood that he'll rat out the culprits at the top. I'm CERTAIN it reaches AT LEAST to Holder... probably higher.

LKB3rd
June 28, 2011, 03:07 PM
I don't think it is accurate to call it a botched operation like this article does. I think it was doing exactly what they intended. It was creating evidence for the lie that our 2nd amendment is behind violence in Mexico.

lemaymiami
June 28, 2011, 03:30 PM
As tempting as it is to believe that.... I don't think they're that skilled. It's just one of those screw-ups that just got completely out of hand. Now it's coverup time. The only thing I haven't heard about this particular screw-up (I'm being polite here) is when it began. If it began under the current administration then there's a chance that anything planned had a second agenda since they're definitely a bunch of 'true believers' and might have intended a greater move toward gun control as the end result. If it started before Obama then all we're looking at is the coverup. Which in recent years might just get the folks responsible in bad trouble (a little wishful on my part, I know).

Most cops know that this sort of stuff can wind all concerned in front a grand jury and lead to very bad outcomes.... Note, I said cops, and I don't include feds in that category at all. I've met and worked with many feds at street level that were outstanding - but the administrators and those who work for them.... don't play by rules that I want any part of....

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2011, 04:42 PM
The people in charge aren't that sophisticated or capable of coherent action. If the operation was intended to discredit the 2nd Amendment don't think for a minute that whistle blowers wouldn't have that info out there for the press and political opposition along with the current revelations.

LKB3rd
June 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
Whistle blowers did come forward, after having their concerns squelched by higher -ups at first. The last straw was when the leo was killed with one of the guns(ATF? I forget which agency), and they went public.

Unistat
June 28, 2011, 05:45 PM
Whistle blowers did come forward, after having their concerns squelched by higher -ups at first. The last straw was when the leo was killed with one of the guns(ATF? I forget which agency), and they went public.
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

azmjs
June 28, 2011, 06:55 PM
Compared to the ruthless craving for power and use of random, arbitrary methods used by Holder and some ATF mgmt. to showcase their status as being above the law and unaccountable, leaders of the "Peoples' Republic of China" appear to be more moderate.

How do we create another Magna Carta as was done by English barons against King John in 1215 at Runnymede, but this time will impose tighter limitations on the abuse of power by federal appointees?

I think you're overlooking the real problem here- high melodrama.

Poorly conceived sting operations go bad from time to time. Such is life.

DammitBoy
June 28, 2011, 07:01 PM
What about the claim that this sting operation was begun under Bush? Sounds like this is part two of making sure Obama doesn't get blamed for this.

lemaymiami
June 28, 2011, 07:30 PM
As I've already said, I'd very much like to know when this whole fiasco got started. If it started under one administration, then carried over to the next.... that's a real recipe for trouble since the folks at the upper end of DOJ are very likely to be political appointees and most certainly not up to speed on things at first (later on is another story). That's not to excuse them (and I'm certainly not a supporter in any sense of the word of our current administration...).

Lots to learn about this, and it will not be entertaining since very bad things happened. I have zero sympathy for anyone found to be covering up this mess. If that's what occurred it won't have been the guys/gals on the line - that sort of stuff will come from above.

armoredman
June 28, 2011, 09:23 PM
If I remember the hearings, the Operation GUNRUNNER was started under Bush, but Fast and Felony Stupid was started in 2009...AFTER Dear Leader was in power. Just what I remember hearing, could be wrong.
Every agent questioned in the hearings seemed to say the same thing - the stated "aim" of the operation was insane on the face of it, impossible to accomplish, and doomed to failure before it began, especially with deliberate non-co-operation with Meixcan authorities. With that being read, there had to be some reason given for this type of operation, a reason that would cause someone who passed a background check and mental health examination to become federal law enforcement agency's management to sign off on it.

lemaymiami
June 28, 2011, 10:17 PM
"background check and mental health exam...." You have entirely too much faith in the folks who are running things. The background check amounts to "Have they been caught doing anything"? and the mental health component is simply is he/she smart enough to be on our side? The most important item is often simply "who is owed what" when it's political appointees you're speaking of. Wish I was wrong here or that both sides of the political equation don't operate the same in that particular area....

Often the only hope a federal bureaucracy (or state or local) has is the folks who are straight career types that will see all manner of appointees come and go. They're the ones that actually get things done. If they're reasonably honest and actually try to get a job done we're all very lucky. Systems like this aren't set up to do great things, and many with ambition and drive just get ground down to the point that they're just putting in time until retirement.

Of course I'm just a cranky guy that's pretty cynical about how things actually work....

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2011, 11:11 PM
Whistle blowers did come forward, after having their concerns squelched by higher -ups at first. The last straw was when the leo was killed with one of the guns(ATF? I forget which agency), and they went public.

Right, and if there was any evidence the whole operation was intended to discredit the 2nd Amendment, they'd have that information out there for Congressional and media perusal along with the rest of it.

mizzlep
June 28, 2011, 11:19 PM
Right, and if there was any evidence the whole operation was intended to discredit the 2nd Amendment, they'd have that information out there for Congressional and media perusal along with the rest of it.
Not saying your wrong, but what makes you so sure? How is that information going to get out 'there'? Do you think the media has gun-rights at the heart of it's agenda...sure, only it's it to limit them. :-(

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2011, 11:35 PM
Do you think the media has gun-rights at the heart of it's agenda...sure, only it's it to limit them. :-(

Do you think Fox News would let any documented suggestion of a false flag operation intended to undermine the 2nd Amendment slide right on by?

mizzlep
June 29, 2011, 08:56 PM
Yes...Have you heard of Waco and the OKC Bombings?
Fox news is really good at one thing: Pretending to hate liberals. But, the reality is, they are in the same camp as the other news networks.

Of course, Fox does have some occasional good discussions, I can't say they hold themselves to any kind of real moral standard. When they start calling Lincoln a treasonous bastard instead of 'the greatest president', advocating using gold as money, talking about World Trade Center Tower 7, calling Bush a war criminal and calling for his prosecution (along with several other presidents), then maybe I'll think they are not on the take.

Unistat
June 30, 2011, 09:17 PM
Yes...Have you heard of Waco and the OKC Bombings?
Fox news is really good at one thing: Pretending to hate liberals. But, the reality is, they are in the same camp as the other news networks.

Of course, Fox does have some occasional good discussions, I can't say they hold themselves to any kind of real moral standard. When they start calling Lincoln a treasonous bastard instead of 'the greatest president', advocating using gold as money, talking about World Trade Center Tower 7, calling Bush a war criminal and calling for his prosecution (along with several other presidents), then maybe I'll think they are not on the take.
See my sig please.

Tim the student
July 1, 2011, 06:58 PM
Not sure which of the threads to post this in....

I got an update from my senator today, Chuck Grassley. Nothing really earth shaking in it, but he considered it important enough to put in his newsletter. He still has it out for the ATF it looks like, and he isn't going to let go.

He says in part:

"When the ATF promotes this kind of misleading data, it distracts from the real questions of our investigation: Why was the ATF was involved in a policy to allow guns to fall into the hands of straw purchasers who were then transporting them to Mexican drug cartels and who approved this reckless strategy? Congressman Issa and I are committed to getting to the bottom of this irresponsible decision, regardless of agency attempts to manipulate the truth."

For your reading pleasure (http://grassley.senate.gov/about/Focusing-on-the-Facts-of-the-ATF-Flawed-Gun-Strategy.cfm)

Sky
July 1, 2011, 10:13 PM
It only takes one honest man to stand up sometimes.

Baba Louie
July 2, 2011, 04:31 AM
It only takes one honest man to stand up sometimes.Why am I reminded of Vince Foster when I read your post? Hmmmmm. Like TWA Flight 800 I don't expect the total truth from anyone in the driver's seat, but a whitewashed version acceptable to the MSM then off we go too another problem elsewhere, conveniently placing all this behind us... or them... (whoever "them" is, and we'll never find that smoking gun pointing at someone so highly placed). Maybe my tinfoil chapeau is too tight (or loose), dunno. ;)

I look forward to Grassley and Issa trying to find an honest answer, but fear the fix is in.

Cryogaijin
July 2, 2011, 05:39 AM
I think the partisan politics are a bit out of place in this discussion. I doubt either Obama or W had much to do with this at all, except possibly a go-ahead or similar.

There is too much of a tendency to blame the administration or the party etc etc for things that it is fairly unlikely that the prez or party had anything to do with. (Example, blaming obama for the stupidity of the mil shredding their brass during obama's first 100 days. I don't think Obama knows enough about firearms to figure that one out, nor do I think anyone was pulling his strings. Someone else was behind it.)

This is a country of over 300 million people. Holding the supreme executive responsible for Minutia is silly. It is the big trends that they influence, that and their personal "project" (War on Drugs etc.)

What I would LOVE to see is greater accountability in the government so that the actual person/s behind debacles like this can be brought into the light and treated in the manner they deserve. (Extradite them to Mexico for trial.)

HD Fboy
July 2, 2011, 06:05 AM
After following this for a while and being home the day of the hearings I have a question for the lawyers here.

Could any of the government officials found complicit in this operation be liable under civil law for wrongful death in the murder of Brian Terry?

Watching the hearings that day it was the only thing I could imagine that would get all the agents who had boots on the ground to blast their bosses like that. Their federal careers are over at this point.

If this investagation continues I wonder where the BATFE will end up. If you think about it BATFE should be a cheerleader for legal gun use. Obviously as an agency this is not the case. As an agency they don't believe in the rights laid out in the second amendment. Now, I do think they have agents who don't think that way but BATFE management is as anti gun as Sarah Brady.

x_wrench
July 2, 2011, 08:48 AM
just another bit of "proof" that "our" government no longer serves WE THE PEOPLE. they serve themselves.

1911Tuner
July 3, 2011, 07:35 AM
More than that x wrench. They believe that the people exist to serve them.

Gun Geezer
July 3, 2011, 09:27 AM
Those responsible should be jailed. They won't be and the ATF will keep right on abusing the law, the Constitution, the will of congress, and the citizens of the country.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2011, 03:46 PM
More than that x wrench. They believe that the people exist to serve them.
I am reminded of a cartoon I once saw -- a pro football player is talking to the coach, "When you make as much money as I do, then you can tell me how to throw a forward pass."

That sums up the attitude of the never-held-a-real-job bureaucrats -- "When you ordinary working slobs make as much money as we do, then you can expect us to serve you."

HorseSoldier
July 3, 2011, 04:24 PM
Could any of the government officials found complicit in this operation be liable under civil law for wrongful death in the murder of Brian Terry?

They should be, but I don't think current law will allow for the heirs/relatives of a federal government employee to sue the federal government or its representatives for either negligent or knowing impropriety. Lawyers here at THR may be able to clarify, but I would think that if it were possible we'd hear about it happening a lot.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2011, 04:33 PM
They should be, but I don't think current law will allow for the heirs/relatives of a federal government employee to sue the federal government or its representatives for either negligent or knowing impropriety.

The bar to a suit is that they did what they did as part of their official duties.

In which case they should make their job descriptions public and show us the part where it says, "Gets Federal Law Enforcement Officers killed by facilitating the sale of firearms to drug smugglers."

1911Tuner
July 3, 2011, 05:45 PM
Yep, Vern. A quote comes to mind:

"They may promise to govern well, but they mean to govern. They may promise to be good masters...but they mean to be masters."

And another one:

"Those who would aspire to positions of power are the very ones who shouldn't have it."

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2011, 05:49 PM
Amen, Tuner! Amen!

About 15 years ago my wife wanted to take a tour of Europe, so we signed up for a "student tour." Our guide was a cute little Scots gal, who kept asking questions. "Why do you Americans complain so much about taxes? We say taxes are the price for living in a free country."

And some Ugly American replied, "Sweetheart, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, not eternal taxation."

He could have gone on to point out the more money you give them, the stronger the chains they can buy to keep you subdued.

4v50 Gary
July 3, 2011, 08:02 PM
Holder should resign.

Vern Humphrey
July 3, 2011, 08:35 PM
Holder should resign.
Holder should be indicted, but that ain't gonna happen, either.:(

HorseSoldier
July 4, 2011, 07:27 AM
Those who would aspire to positions of power are the very ones who shouldn't have it.

I've long felt that a willingness to compete for elected office should be a disqualifier for holding office . . .

Deanimator
July 4, 2011, 08:26 AM
Holder should be indicted, but that ain't gonna happen, either.
If they can trace this to Holder fast enough, Obama will FIRE him... even if Obama gave the orders.

Obama's not going to go into the election trying to defend arming the cartels, especially with a dead Border Patrol agent. He'll shoot Holder under the bus with a cannon.

chokeu2
July 4, 2011, 08:58 AM
Gotta agree for the most part here; although there is an element of truth to it.

Somewhere in the DoJ ivory tower, a bureaucrat who probably has a masters degree in public policy; probably thought this was a good idea. And this operation may have looked good on paper; but as most of us know, things fall apart when the real world comes to play. And since it was passed down to the ATF from the center of pure thought, the ivory tower of justice; ATF management probably didn't have the stones to say that the plan was not workable. So they muddled ahead with full willingness to leave their agents out to dry if this thing went bad.

And bad it went. And now ATF management is leaving its agents out to dry, and die. While the administration and DoJ play dumb.

The part that rings true about this being a shot at making the point that our 2nd amendment is killing people in Mexico is that the government did put forth the notion about American guns ending up in Mexico. And the main stream press, for the most part, carried and drank the cool aid on the story.

So in that sense it was an attack on our 2nd amendment; but it wasn't a direct attack, it was an ancillary/bonus to some bureaucratic hacks master plan. I guess that is the kind of thing that one learns how to do when training for a "masters" in "public policy".

@Deanimator: I do not know about that my friend. Obama became President running on no professional or academic background. Well, no background that could be verified, to this day. He's hung out with known terrorists (Ayers for example), was an open marxist, raised by and never denying being influenced by communists, attended a racist/marxist church with jihadist sympathies, is an open devotee of Alinsky and Clowerd-Piven, he's openly made finacial legislation that will intentionally harm the economy, he's forced socialized health care onto a population that does not want it, and has never worked wherever tried.

While you make a very valid point, this guy isn't about playing by the typical rules of politics.

usmarine0352_2005
July 5, 2011, 05:29 PM
.

Looks like some political maneuvering.




http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/05/mexican-lawmakers-want-extradition-for-us-officials-responsible-for-botched/



U.S. Officials Behind 'Fast and Furious' Gun Sales Should Be Tried in Mexico, Lawmaker Says

By William La Jeunesse

Published July 05, 2011

| FoxNews.com


While the investigation continues into the U.S. operation that helped send thousands of guns south of the border, Mexican lawmakers say they'll press for extradition and prosecution in Mexico of American officials who authorized and ran the operation.


.

Rocketmedic
July 5, 2011, 06:18 PM
That sounds fair to me. Let's see Holder and his cronies arrested and sent to face a trial in the country they harmed.

HorseSoldier
July 5, 2011, 10:41 PM
Sounds like a roaring idea to me.

Neverwinter
July 6, 2011, 01:07 AM
.
Looks like some political maneuvering.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/05/mexican-lawmakers-want-extradition-for-us-officials-responsible-for-botched/
.
Have we been in the habit of allowing government officials to be extradited for foreign trials?

I do not know about that my friend. Obama became President running on no professional or academic background. Well, no background that could be verified, to this day. He's hung out with known terrorists (Ayers for example), was an open marxist, raised by and never denying being influenced by communists, attended a racist/marxist church with jihadist sympathies, is an open devotee of Alinsky and Clowerd-Piven, he's openly made finacial legislation that will intentionally harm the economy, he's forced socialized health care onto a population that does not want it, and has never worked wherever tried.
You forgot to mention being Kenyan. And possibly being a lizard person.

Tim the student
July 6, 2011, 01:16 AM
Have we been in the habit of allowing government officials to be extradited for foreign trials?

No, and for good reason.

HorseSoldier
July 6, 2011, 01:18 AM
Can't imagine we'd ever actually set the precedent of extraditing a government official for trial elsewhere, but if the Mexicans issue some sort of arrest warrant for Holder and other officials involved it really puts Obama in a hard spot. It's embarrassing internationally, and leaving the people involved in office means essentially telling Latin America that we really do think as little of them as they always think we do. Removing them from office may be the most palatable course of action for O & Crew.

LongTimeGone
July 6, 2011, 01:08 PM
It just got worse for Holder and co.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/

Mike OTDP
July 6, 2011, 01:26 PM
MUCH worse. This marks some very serious bureaucratic infighting. The ATF head just formally declared that he won't be the fall guy.

Smart move, in my opinion. He's an acting appointment - which means that he has no political cover. A prime candidate to go under the bus, and off to prison. So he's essentially turned State's Evidence.

usmarine0352_2005
July 6, 2011, 11:08 PM
.

Oops.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/06/justice-department-obstructing-fast-and-furious-gun-probe-atf-director-says/#ixzz1RNgm8w7m





According to sources, unbeknown to the ATF, the target of their operation was a FBI confidential informant, a fact that only became known to them in April of this year after an 18-month investigation that cost millions of dollars of tax dollars.

"They were going after someone they could never have," a source in Washington told Fox News. "The Mr. Big they wanted was using government money to buy guns that went to the cartels. The FBI knew it and didn't tell them."
.

.

Sig88
July 7, 2011, 09:18 AM
Just wow

publius
July 7, 2011, 09:49 AM
If the guys who broke this scandal are right again, the Tampa ATF was walking guns to Honduras (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/breaking-news-source-claims-atf-s-tampa-sac-walked-guns-to-honduras).

JohnBT
July 7, 2011, 11:54 AM
Uh-oh. How many more countries are involved. A good(?) idea spreads quickly in government as the managers claw their way to the top.

Will the U.S. allow them to be tried overseas for their part in the scheme?

Well anyway, here's the link to today's Washington Post article on Melson's testimony.

www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/atf-director-testifies-on-bungled-gun-operation/2011/07/06/gIQAhy3d0H_story.html

publius
July 7, 2011, 02:49 PM
I see the Washington Post still cannot bring themselves to print the truth of what happened here...

Fast and Furious allowed the suspected illegal purchase of hundreds of semiautomatic firearms in Arizona gun shops so ATF agents could watch where the guns ended up, with the hope of bringing down a Mexican cartel.

The bolded part is absolutely false, and is actually the anti-truth. The agents "could" watch where the guns ended up HAD THEIR SUPERIORS NOT ORDERED THEM NOT TO DO THAT!

In fairness, finally printing the fact that the ATF "allowed the suspected illegal purchase of hundreds of semiautomatic firearms" is a huge step forward for the Washington Post, since that little fact has not yet appeared in their paper. But that glimmer of a hope that they are recovering from denial was quickly dashed by the lie that followed.

publius
July 7, 2011, 03:15 PM
43 walked guns found in Phoenix traffic stop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSyBqBLX0I

Sniper X
July 7, 2011, 03:58 PM
Ruby Ridge, and Waco, now this, the good ol ATF has a bretty bad rep, but they'll never suffer for it. Neither will the man who OK'd this debacle, Barry O.

publius
July 7, 2011, 08:46 PM
Project Gunrunner got its own ten million dollar earmark (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text?version=enr&nid=t0:enr:232t) in the stimulus bill

The New York Times with the usual penetrating and detailed coverage (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/us/politics/07guns.html).

The lawmakers have been investigating an A.T.F. program called Operation Fast and Furious in which federal agents knowingly let weapons slip across the Mexican border in the hope of tracing them to drug cartels. Two of the guns later turned up in Arizona, where an American Border Patrol agent was killed in a shootout.

Agents say they actually had no hope of tracing the guns to cartels, and complained about that fact to supervisors repeatedly. Had they managed to somehow trace the guns to the purchaser, it turns out they would have found an FBI informant paying with tax money in at least one case.

Millwright
July 7, 2011, 09:59 PM
Make no mistake. Project "Fast and Furious" aka "Gunrunner" was never, ever about hitting the cartels. It was solely conceived to create a "gun crisis" enabling further restrictions on gun ownership/purchase across the nation ! >MW

One-Time
July 8, 2011, 12:16 AM
+1 Im amazed so many dont see it for what it was, it was about forcing foreign pressure and even local pressure in order to bring about sweeping gun laws PERIOD

publius
July 8, 2011, 09:45 AM
The panic has spread to Tampa, according to the "Woodward and Bernstein" of this scandal...

They have an update on the ATF gunwalking to Honduras (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/breaking-news-tampa-sac-full-meltdown-shredders-are-buzzing)

At one point the case was ready to be wrapped up with arrests and remain relatively efficient but O'Brien and McCampbell decided on their own to keep it going to "get more" against the advise of thier field employees and the walked guns numbers got out of control.

OB is terrified that her intentional concealing of her walked guns is going to do her in since she disregarded orders to report to DOJ and Congress.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Breaking News: Tampa SAC 'in full meltdown...shredders are buzzing' - National gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/breaking-news-tampa-sac-full-meltdown-shredders-are-buzzing#ixzz1RWN4ZVBf

atblis
July 8, 2011, 11:22 AM
Make no mistake. Project "Fast and Furious" aka "Gunrunner" was never, ever about hitting the cartels. It was solely conceived to create a "gun crisis" enabling further restrictions on gun ownership/purchase across the nation ! >MW
Close. I suspect it had more to do with job security. Create a "problem", get more funding, keep your fat government paycheck.

Government is farcical. The more you f'up, the more money you get.

Bubbles
July 8, 2011, 11:28 AM
Fast and Furious allowed the suspected illegal purchase of hundreds of semiautomatic firearms in Arizona gun shops so ATF agents could watch where the guns ended up, with the hope of bringing down a Mexican cartel.

The bolded part is absolutely false, and is actually the anti-truth. The agents "could" watch where the guns ended up HAD THEIR SUPERIORS NOT ORDERED THEM NOT TO DO THAT!
It's also false because the ATF/DoJ never told Mexico that the guns were being smuggled across the border. Once those guns left the US the ATF lacked the authority and the ability to track them.

Sky
July 8, 2011, 06:07 PM
H.R. 1-16 Titled "Office of Justice Programs", under the page of "State and local Laws and enforcement assistance", says on the "allocation of funds page" that $10,000,000 would be allocated for Project Gunrunner. Rather dry reading bill which was signed into law in 2009 by our sitting President. All of this stuff is easy to find if one seeks the info with the exception of black projects; there is always a paper trail and even a list of co-sponsors.

http://demo.tizra.com/dltaj/16?highlightText=gunrunner&;;;


For an additional amount for ‘State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance’, $40,000,000, for competitive grants to provide assistance and equipment to local law enforcement along the Southern border and in High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas to combat criminal narcotics activity stemming from the Southern border, of which $10,000,000 shall be transferred to ‘Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Salaries and Expenses’ for the ATF Project Gunrunner.

Well that answered a few questions. Second thought maybe it is a different program with the same name?

LongTimeGone
July 9, 2011, 08:45 AM
Here is some of that "under the radar" stuff.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/08/obama_adminstration_to_implement_more_gun_control_without_congress

Sky
July 9, 2011, 10:06 PM
Hard for many Americans to "become involved" because they are so busy trying to make a living that almost all other activities (other than family) gets excluded. Also a type of apathy exist for many feel they are but one voice with no channel for change or the collective reasoning.

publius
July 11, 2011, 07:25 PM
The hearings on government criminality and irresponsibility are just a distraction from real problems, according to noted journalist Juan Williams (http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/juan-williams/170587-opinion-gop-distracts-from-drug-horror).

The idea was that ATF would be able to trace the firearms back to their original buyers, enabling them to arrest and prosecute members of the drug cartels. The operation spun wildly out of control and less than half of the firearms have been accounted for.

The idea that the ability to identify a straw buyer back in America would lead to a kingpin in Mexico is so incredibly stupid that I cannot believe people are taking it seriously.

The operation never "spun wildly out of control" that I can tell. Right up until Agent Terry was killed, whistleblowers report that their supervisors were "giddy" when a walked gun would turn up at a Mexican crime scene because that meant the strategy was "working."

If it ever "spun out of control" it was after Agent Terry was killed and the coverup began. The operation was proceeding according to plan up until then, which is really the problem here. The plan itself was "felony stupid" to quote Rep. Issa, but sticking to a really stupid plan is not spinning out of control. It's proceeding according to a plan.

Apocalypse-Now
July 11, 2011, 07:27 PM
if this had happened on a republican's watch, the liberal media would be on them like stink on a monkey. not Obozo though, he's their darling.....

Vern Humphrey
July 11, 2011, 07:50 PM
The idea that the ability to identify a straw buyer back in America would lead to a kingpin in Mexico is so incredibly stupid that I cannot believe people are taking it seriously.

The operation never "spun wildly out of control" that I can tell. Right up until Agent Terry was killed, whistleblowers report that their supervisors were "giddy" when a walked gun would turn up at a Mexican crime scene because that meant the strategy was "working."

If it ever "spun out of control" it was after Agent Terry was killed and the coverup began. The operation was proceeding according to plan up until then, which is really the problem here. The plan itself was "felony stupid" to quote Rep. Issa, but sticking to a really stupid plan is not spinning out of control. It's proceeding according to a plan.
They never intended to find a king pin -- the man they were stalking was an FBI informer and not eligible for arrest.

Their intention was to create a horror story about all those American guns getting to Mexico and use that to justify more gun control.

azmjs
July 11, 2011, 09:05 PM
What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to.

Unistat
July 11, 2011, 09:34 PM
What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to.
I agree.

"Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by incompetence."

HorseSoldier
July 11, 2011, 11:00 PM
Very true.

publius
July 12, 2011, 07:05 AM
I just want to know who authorized it. It was so poorly conceived that the conspiracy theories make more sense than the program, so I think that whoever looked at this idea and thought it a good one needs to leave government service forever.

Unistat
July 12, 2011, 08:31 AM
I just want to know who authorized it. It was so poorly conceived that the conspiracy theories make more sense than the program, so I think that whoever looked at this idea and thought it a good one needs to leave government service forever.
I don't think there is a single person who would disagree with you. That demonstration of judgement was so abyssmally awful that I would have a problem if the person responsible was in charge of even a fry-machine at McDonald's!

Mike1234567
July 12, 2011, 08:56 AM
The gun control folks used this to "justify" more control measures in "border states". Anyone who buys more than 2 semi-auto firearms within a 5 day period in a border state is to be reported by name to the ATF.

jerkface11
July 12, 2011, 10:22 AM
What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to.

Yes because the ATF doesn't have a history of being dirty.....

Vern Humphrey
July 12, 2011, 10:53 AM
Quote:
What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to.

Yes because the ATF doesn't have a history of being dirty.....
You're being sarcastic, right?:scrutiny:

1911Tuner
July 12, 2011, 01:09 PM
Quote:

>What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to. <

It was framed in fail from its conception. Once the guns went to Mexico, the ATF couldn't "watch" to see where they ended up and they couldn't trace them to anywhere in Mexico. Their jurisdiction ends at the border. All they could do from that point was wait until the Mexican authorities had them and reported the serial numbers. By that time, it was highly likely that they'd been used in crimes, up to and including murder.

Only an idiot would believe that such a plan could have even a slight chance of success. They planned it beautifully. The murdered Border patrol agent was the monkey wrench in the machinery.

No. I think that it was meant to do exactly what the "conspiracy theorists" believe. That it was intended to offer "proof" that shady American gun dealers are responsible for the drug-related violence in Mexico.

DammitBoy
July 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
It has resulted in more gun control restrictions, so their plan worked out perfectly.

HorseSoldier
July 12, 2011, 05:20 PM
And the political fallout may contribute to the Great O not getting a second term in office. Not exactly Hollywood blockbuster plotline level brilliance.

Having spent my entire adult life working for one component/level of government or another, this doesn't look like conspiracy to me. It looks like every other governmental disaster -- incompetent political appointees and bureaucrats promoted past their level of competence cooking up a dumb idea and then scrambling to not own it when the error of their ways is revealed.

Vern Humphrey
July 12, 2011, 05:21 PM
All they could do from that point was wait until the Mexican authorities had them and reported the serial numbers. By that time, it was highly likely that they'd been used in crimes, up to and including murder.
Which any reasonable person could forsee.

And when a person or organization does something that a reasonable person would see likely to result in a felony, they have themselves committed a felony.

azmjs
July 12, 2011, 05:22 PM
This is not a Steven Segal movie.

The program was plainly ill-conceived.

Not the first example of incompetence or folly leading to an undesirable and unintended outcome.

Vern Humphrey
July 12, 2011, 05:28 PM
The program was plainly ill-conceived
I think it worked just like it was meant to work -- except they assumed on one would find out about it. They expected innocent people to die, and planned to make hay from that.

azmjs
July 12, 2011, 05:30 PM
Sure they did.

:rolleyes:

It's a conspiracy, huh?

CapnMac
July 12, 2011, 05:38 PM
That it was intended to offer "proof" that shady American gun dealers are responsible for the drug-related violence in Mexico.

Some of this is also in the "class difference" of Beltway types versus "flyover" folk. Gun ownership is functionally illegal in Mexico. But, it's common for those well-enough off to own houses to also buy (or be given) arms to defend them. And, as gifts, the arms bought are the fancier, expensive, arms available to US dealers.

Traffickers do not deal in the small lots that AFTE was "letting out" they buy from people who deliver by the plane load. All PGR/FnF was ever likely to find were people caught in the crossfire, or in the border insurrections like that in Juarez.

Not that a person could likely explain that in small enough terms for the more-pointy-haired SES Beltway types would likely understand. For those beltway folks with political motivation, well, that colors any ability to rationally understand their actions at all.

Mike J
July 12, 2011, 05:58 PM
From what is said in this video it looks like it was conceived by Holder & Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PNhYk9NuNc&feature=youtu.be

Doug b
July 12, 2011, 06:12 PM
Operation gunrunner was started in 2005 haven't seen that mentioned in the 6 pages of right wing fear mongering I was able to suffer through.For those not in the know 2005 was the G.W.Bush admin.

publius
July 12, 2011, 06:37 PM
The program was plainly ill-conceived.

My problem with it was that it was sooooo ill-conceived that no reasonable person could believe the plan. Wait for guns to show up at crime scenes, do some mysterious step that no one can name, bust kingpins.

It just does not add up.

The program did succeed in producing calls for more gun control, and that outcome was predictable.

A program that will predictably cause mayhem and calls for gun control did exactly that, and we are supposed to believe it was intended to do something that NO ONE would predict it could do?

publius
July 12, 2011, 06:38 PM
Doug b, learn the differences between Gunrunner and Fast and Furious, then return to the discussion.

azmjs
July 12, 2011, 06:44 PM
The first step out of reality and into pure paranoiac fantasy is believing that you know with anything approaching certainty that you can 'eliminate' the possible motives of other people.

Mistakes, incompetence, miscommunication, bad management, and folly are not only all very very real, they are also much much more likely and plausible than sinister conspiracies and cabals.

I don't think everyone with paranoid delusional thinking necessarily needs psychiatric help, I think a vigorous reality check can be sufficient to regain a grip on the real world.

Carl N. Brown
July 12, 2011, 07:02 PM
Operation gunrunner was started in 2005 haven't seen that mentioned in the 6 pages of right wing fear mongering I was able to suffer through. For those not in the know 2005 was the G.W.Bush admin.

Operation Fast and Furious:
In the fall of 2009, the Department of Justice (DOJ) developed a risky new strategy to combat gun trafficking along the Southwest Border. The new strategy directed federal law enforcement to shift its focus away from seizing firearms from criminals as soon as possible—and to focus instead on identifying members of trafficking networks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) implemented that strategy using a reckless investigative technique that street agents call “gunwalking.”

Gunwalker 2005 sieze illegal guns and buyers asap
Fast and Furious 2009 let 'em walk
Different administrations, different policies.

Carl N. Brown
July 12, 2011, 07:12 PM
In fantasy, our authority figures are in total control and know what they are doing.

In reality, our authority figures unleash random chaos without thinking through the unintended consequences of their actions.

Somehow the fantasy world seems safer than the reality world.

Doug b
July 12, 2011, 09:14 PM
Publius I'm back in the discussion and requesting your knowadge of the difference between gunrunner and fast and furious other than a name change to confuss this poor dumb buckeye, enlighten me if you will.

Unistat
July 12, 2011, 09:54 PM
The Gunrunner Project was an initiative to provide enhanced tracking capabilities including database access and software to Mexico and other South of the border countries. Started under the G.W. Bush Administration.

Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.

The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?

JohnBT
July 12, 2011, 09:58 PM
"right wing fear mongering"

Where? I wanna see some. Which way did they go?

Doug b
July 12, 2011, 10:06 PM
Fast and furiuos was a project INSIDE gunrunner http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/OIG_report.pdf requested by mexican gov. I hope the link work and you folks have time to read it.

Ignition Override
July 13, 2011, 02:39 AM
Unistat: "Roger that".

What a shame that Attorney General Eric Holder is not held responsible for operations which he was aware of and approved,
but that is how "plausible denial" works.

It reminds me a bit of the senseless tragedy of an American Eagle ATR-42 turboprop, which crashed years ago in Roselawn, IN.
Two of the exact type almost lost control flying over southern Europe, but our friends at the FAA kept quiet about their knowledge of the "aileron snatch" behind ice ridges formed during holding in clouds with certain types of droplets, which was contrary to normal wing icing certification, hoping that the rare but nasty characteristics would Not lead to dead passengers in the US.

The FAA was Passive, and only kept their calm "poker faces", but elements within the ATF Actively pressured gun store owners to condone sales which were likely to contribute to many deaths.

Davek1977
July 13, 2011, 03:23 AM
What this actually was, as opposed to the "really" that conspiracy theorists like to use to preface their paranoid fantasies, was a poorly conceived program that failed to do what it was meant to. Thats your opinion at this point. The facts are FAR from being clear, and this isn't a cut and dried case of simple incompetence. You may feel as though it was a well-intended operation gone bad. Thats your OPINION, tnad you are certainly entitled to it. However, to deadpanly declare it as fact is jumping the gun, so to speak. This program was so poorly conceived, that it could NOT have Possibly EVER gone down as planned, and anyone who cares to study its premise should have realized that from square one. When Mexican authorities are not involved, and US authorites cannot monitor the guns once south of the border, exactly how was this operation EVER going to be a success? On its face, it has "bad idea" written all over it. When you take into further consideration the fact the main target of the operation is already allegedly a paid government informant for the FBI who is by all accounts "untouchable" by the ATF, the plan deteriorates considerably further. Simply put, the idea this may be a conspiracy with the intent of more gun control being the goal isn't hard to latch on to, considering there was no effective way this operation would have ever gone down in the manner the ATF is trying to sell the public. If this WAS simply a plan gone bad (which I don't personally believe) the amount of utter and sheer incompetence involved should bring about an audit of the ATF and their activities. If a plan this monumentally bad was given the go-ahead, heads need to roll. Regardless of orignal intent, this operation stinks of incompetence on so many levels it isn't even remotely funny anymore.

Chief_Cabioch
July 13, 2011, 03:45 AM
one sure way to lessen the supply of class three weapons is to invole them in a crime.....presto, that weapon is now off the market, second the ATF is a political tool of the left, and is over stepping it's questionable Authority, now it seems it's asumming power to decide border states have different rules to live by and thanfully the NRA is going to file suit as soon as the first demand letters reach Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California FFL's, as someone who has wittnesed time and time again the ATF out of control it is time the agency was ended and some agents absorbed by other less politically motivated agencies, that have a much clearer mandate, and not making "policy" that is essentially a law......and the ATF has no authority to make Law.....thats the Job of elected officials residing in Congress, or the Senate.

Chief_Cabioch
July 13, 2011, 03:51 AM
The Gunrunner Project was an initiative to provide enhanced tracking capabilities including database access and software to Mexico and other South of the border countries. Started under the G.W. Bush Administration.

Operation Fast and Furious was the idea that by allowing criminals to purchase high volumes of guns the ATF could use the new tracking system to follow the guns back to drug lords. Started under the Obama Administration.

The problem is that in order to track these guns they would have to be captured by South of the border law enforcement. Most likely this would be after crimes had already been committed with them. But hey, can't make omlets without breaking a few eggs, right?
__________________
There's basically two kinds of people in the world. People who believe in the Moon Landing and people who don't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Unistat; Yesterday at 09:13 PM.



with all due respect....the ATF agents admitted under oath they only had GPS tracking devices in (2) of the 2300 guns involved....that may sound like a legitimate way to lie, "yes we tracked them"......but in all Honesty rings far from the truth, which was to further drum up Anti Gun support and to make Guns the Demons of the world and a cause of more Restrictive Gun rights.......which accordiung to most statsitics have the exact oposite effect of those that are promised, more crime not less, more deaths not less....etc....

Davek1977
July 13, 2011, 03:53 AM
Ummm....this controversy has nothing to do with "class three" weapons and primarily concerns the sales of common, legally available semi-auto military style rifles, such as various AK-47 clones. To the best of my knowledge, no machine guns or other NFA weapons legally registered in the US have turned up at Mexican crime scenes.

Chief_Cabioch
July 13, 2011, 03:54 AM
Quote:
Operation gunrunner was started in 2005 haven't seen that mentioned in the 6 pages of right wing fear mongering I was able to suffer through. For those not in the know 2005 was the G.W.Bush admin.

Operation Fast and Furious:

Quote:
In the fall of 2009, the Department of Justice (DOJ) developed a risky new strategy to combat gun trafficking along the Southwest Border. The new strategy directed federal law enforcement to shift its focus away from seizing firearms from criminals as soon as possible—and to focus instead on identifying members of trafficking networks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) implemented that strategy using a reckless investigative technique that street agents call “gunwalking.”

Gunwalker 2005 sieze illegal guns and buyers asap
Fast and Furious 2009 let 'em walk
Different administrations, different policies.
__________________
Cogito me cogitare; ergo, cogito me esse.


well it might just be because you or anyone else have provided links, or other ways to prove what till now would be front page News if it was negative, and about the Bushg administration.......dont you think ?

Vern Humphrey
July 13, 2011, 08:38 AM
Fast and Furious is the corollary to the Obama Administration's policy of "Don't let a crisis go to waste."

They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."

And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.

Carl N. Brown
July 13, 2011, 10:12 AM
Doug b #193
Fast and furiuos was a project INSIDE gunrunner http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/OIG_report.pdf requested by mexican gov. I hope the link work and you folks have time to read it.

OK, I downloaded the U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, WORKING DRAFT REPORT, Review of ATF’s Project Gunrunner, September 2010 from MSNBC website.

There is no mention of Operation Fast and Furious period, not even the word "furious" itself, much less operation fast & furious being requested by the Mexican Government. Page cites please?

The document I quoted about Operation Fast & Furious was The Department of Justice’s Operation Fast and Furious: Accounts of ATF Agents, JOINT STAFF REPORT, Prepared for Rep. Darrell E. Issa, Chairman United States House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform & Senator Charles E. Grassley, Ranking Member United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 112th Congress June 14 2011
http://grassley.senate.gov/judiciary/upload/ATF-06-14-11-Joint-Issa-Grassley-report-on-agent-findings.pdf

ADDED: The ATF agents critical of F&F made the point that the Mexican authorities were not notified about F&F, so the guns and/or gunrunners allowed to "walk" could not be followed.

Mike1234567
July 13, 2011, 01:27 PM
Fast and Furious is the corollary to the Obama Administration's policy of "Don't let a crisis go to waste."

They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."

And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.
Yes, a crisis designed from its inception to "tweak" public acceptance of expanded gun control.

CCI
July 13, 2011, 01:36 PM
BATFE ought to have been abolished after the Waco fiasco.
No, when Ruby Ridge happened!

ArfinGreebly
July 13, 2011, 06:22 PM
Another item has surfaced, which I didn't see mentioned earlier.

This article here: "Holder's Office Assures America that Obama Directed Project Gunrunner, March 2009 (http://noisyroom.net/blog/2011/07/13/holder’s-office-assures-america-that-obama-directed-project-gunrunner-march-2009/)" contains a link to a couple of videos, one of which offers some quote material from March of 2009:
Early in the Obama administration, on March 24, 2009 according to MidNightRider2001 (http://www.youtube.com/user/MidNightRider2001), the poster of this video, Eric Holder’s Deputy Attorney General, David Ogden assured America and the world of the strategic involvement of President Obama as well as Holder himself, in Project Gunrunner, using funds from the “stimulus” act.


It would seem, the farther we get into this, that FedGov has, indeed, been caught with its hand in the cookie jar.

I must concur with an earlier analysis that this was designed as a "false flag" operation to bolster the "US guns fueling Mexico violence" stats to justify new regulations and restrictions.

I find it nearly hysterical that, while it (FedGov) is even now being investigated for this crime, the Executive attempts to enact those rules on a bypass of Congress, using the fake stats as justification.

Gawd.

You just couldn't make this stuff up. Even the screen writers for popular cop shows would reject the premise and feel compelled to make the story at least plausible!

Carl N. Brown
July 13, 2011, 06:46 PM
Under Project Gunrunner, US GAO 2008 firearms stats showed:
37,200 firearms siezed by Mexican authorities, of which
7,200 submitted by Mexican authorities for US tracing, of which
4,000 were successfully traced, of which
3,480 were of US origin.

Operation Fast and Furious beginning fall 2009 through 2010 let as many as 2,000 to 2,500 firearms bought by suspicious straw purchasers "walk". That's a lot of additional "US origin" guns.

Doug b
July 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
Carl your 2 time convicted felon chairing the House oversight comm. has about this much credibility http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/dems_issa_scraped_hearing_on_financial_commission_because_docs_wouldnt_fit_his_narrative.php?ref=fpa Issa's reputation preceedes him.

DammitBoy
July 13, 2011, 07:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-PNhYk9NuNc

clutch
July 13, 2011, 07:31 PM
Any time government does things that a private citizen would go to jail for doing, it should be illegal as hell. Stings, no knocks, you pick what ever trick the government is using. Declared war is different.

Gotta problem serving a warrant on a suspected drug dealer, then drive up with an armored vehicle, don't bust down the door at 2:00 AM with a swat team and kill everyone in the house.

This thing letting guns go into Mexico should have people charged with accessory to murder, that is what it was. As a supporter of the Second Amendment, treason comes to mind as an additional charge.

Clutch

Doug b
July 13, 2011, 08:01 PM
Arming an insurection without authorization from Congress comes to mind also.Or maybe they had authorization and when did they get it.

kis2
July 13, 2011, 08:54 PM
I'm not trying to get into activism here, but we should all email whoever we can to make sure this stays at the forefront of peoples thoughts and the news. It'd be tragic to let it fall by the wayside.

I have friends who are unaware this even happened, so please spread the word.

It'll be interesting to see where this all ends up.

publius
July 13, 2011, 09:11 PM
tpmmuckraker is a reference on credibility?

The implausibility factor just went up another notch.

Doug b
July 13, 2011, 09:26 PM
"tpmmuckraker is a reference on credibility? "

Ah but facts are facts take your pick http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=darrell+issa+financial+crisis+inquirey&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=darel+issa+%2B+finacial+crisis+inquirey

HD Fboy
July 13, 2011, 09:46 PM
This just in:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PF-7aYe5wHU/Th4WfT5EvpI/AAAAAAAAI1Y/bJ7jH1ai1JY/s1600/chaitemail.png

Vern Humphrey
July 13, 2011, 10:01 PM
Ah but facts are facts take your pick
The very headlines tell us the articles in question are long on opinions and short on facts, and the sources tell us why.

Daily Kos: Rep. Darrell Issa will only hold investigations that . . .

Issa Exposed : Home Page (on issawatch.couragecampaign.org)

Dems: Issa Scrapped Hearing On Financial Commission Because Docs ... (On tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/.../dems_issa_scraped_hearing_on_ ...)

Sometimes checking the sources does tell you a lot about their credibility.

Doug b
July 13, 2011, 10:45 PM
Vern interesting that you mention the first three hits on Google as these are the most viewed yes they are lefty sights and you helped keep them there.I went out to 26 pages "of headlines" and there were many more.Now whats fact,whats opinion and who's credible.Issa a 2 time convicted felon(grand theft auto,and arson) does not have the credence to hold any hearing hell this clown can vote on the U.S.house of representives floor but can't vote in an election.

Davek1977
July 14, 2011, 01:59 AM
Doug B wrote:

Now whats fact,whats opinion and who's credible.Issa a 2 time convicted felon(grand theft auto,and arson) does not have the credence to hold any hearing hell this clown can vote on the U.S.house of representives floor but can't vote in an election.

Issa has never been convicted of felony charges. Arrested yes, convicted.....nope. Time to get your facts straight! He has plead guilty to possession of an unregistered firearm, a misdemeanor. Charges were dropped in the other cases. If you are going to attack someone's credibility, you'd best be sure your own is unimpeachable. Please, provide dates of his "convictions" on felony charges. theres a world of difference between being charged, being a suspect, and actually being convicted. "Facts are facts" as you say...but pointless hyperbole is just hyperbole as well. Before accusing someone of being a convicted felon, I suggest you make sure its actually true. in this case, its simply false. Issa is not a convicted felon. If you wish to argue this point further, I'll be awaiting dates of convictions and the case numbers involved. If he actually was a felon, these records would NOT be hard to obtain. Howevdr, the fact of the matter is that while Issa may have a BROTHER convicted of a felony, he himself HAS NEVER BEEN CONVICTED ON ANY FELNY CHARGE, let alone multiple charges as you've claimed above:banghead: :confused: :rolleyes:

publius
July 14, 2011, 07:02 AM
Let's get back to the topic at hand.
Here is what tpmmuckraker said about the hearings at which agents testified about the gunwalking:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/issa_refuses_to_allow_let_atf_agents_testify_against_toothless_gun_laws_video.php?ref=mblt

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) wouldn't let ATF agents testifying before his House Oversight Committee hearing Wednesday on the controversial Project Gunrunner say how weak U.S. gun laws were making it difficult for them to catch criminals smuggling assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels.

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) asked one of the agents if weak gun laws made their prosecutions difficult.

"One of you in your testimonies called these laws to prosecute 'toothless.' Could explain to me -- why are existing straw purchase laws 'toothless'?" Maloney asked.

Issa butted in to say that their ATF agent's opinions on U.S. gun laws would not be "considered valid testimony."

"I want to caution the witnesses that the scope of this, your testimony here is limited, and that it's not about proposed legislation and the like and under House rules would not fall within the scope of this," Issa said. "So, anecdotally you can have opinions but ultimately it would not be considered valid testimony.

So the big problem revealed by the hearings was that Issa would not allow them to turn into a debate about new gun control laws, and insisted on performing oversight of the government's wrongdoing.

tpmmuckraker did bring up the subject of the hearings, noting that Project Gunrunner is "controversial." That's all the public needs to know about Fast and Furious, so they moved on to Issa's insistence on oversight as the real problem revealed at the hearings...

And they are a reference on credibility? Hah!

Carl N. Brown
July 14, 2011, 08:40 AM
We should remember the process in Project Gunrunner 2005-to date was to interdict the guns/straw purchasers ASAP, before the guns got across border. However, that was not producing the kind of stats some in ATF wanted to see.

In the fall of 2009, Operation Fast and Furious (OF&F) was begun within Project Gunrunner, allowing the guns and purchasers essentially to disappear into Mexico, then tracking stats as the guns were recovered from crimes.

As evidenced from the e-mails released by Sen Grassley between one of the FFL dealers and the ATF official he was cooperating with, the dealer believed he was cooperating with Project Gunrunner, and had no idea that ATF was following the Operation Fast and Furious paradigm of allowing the guns and purchasers to "walk".

I have been trying to follow what the ATF agents and FFL dealers are saying about OF&F. And my source cited above was a staff report prepared for Grassley and Issa from statements mainly by the ATF agents critical of OF&F. Trashing the credibility of one of the receipients of the report (Issa) does not trash the credibility of the report itself.

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2011, 11:49 AM
You're using argumentum ad hominem and citing leftist sources -- which you yourself admit are biased.

Now, Issa may be many things -- but the evidence is not based on Issa but on the testimony of people where were there and in the know.

Deanimator
July 14, 2011, 12:00 PM
Now, Issa may be many things -- but the evidence is not based on Issa but on the testimony of people where were there and in the know.
When BATFE (I REFUSE to call them ATF) are up to their necks in it, it's a given that BATFE and AHSA types will pop up on various forums to muddy the waters and try to defend the indefensible.

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2011, 12:34 PM
When BATFE (I REFUSE to call them ATF) are up to their necks in it, it's a given that BATFE and AHSA types will pop up on various forums to muddy the waters and try to defend the indefensible.
You better believe it!

Can you think of anything so outrageous as the government committing a crime, and then government shills smearing the people investigating the crime?

Deanimator
July 14, 2011, 01:00 PM
Can you think of anything so outrageous as the government committing a crime, and then government shills smearing the people investigating the crime?
Not quite as bad, but here in Ohio we just had another cop order somebody not to speak, then arrest them for "failure to promptly notify" that they had a CHL and were carrying. There were a lot of borderline psychotic death threats by the cop too. All caught on dashcam of course.

The more that comes out about "Fast and Furious" the more OBVIOUS it becomes that it was a "Reichstag Fire" operation intended to justify more gun control. Holder must have a good lawyer, because we've heard less from him lately than from DB Cooper. If he's LUCKY, he'll just have to resign. I'm sure this goes above him too, and there's only ONE person above him.

HD Fboy
July 14, 2011, 01:03 PM
I think this may close the loop here.

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2011, 01:17 PM
Not quite as bad, but here in Ohio we just had another cop order somebody not to speak, then arrest them for "failure to promptly notify" that they had a CHL and were carrying. There were a lot of borderline psychotic death threats by the cop too. All caught on dashcam of course.

The more that comes out about "Fast and Furious" the more OBVIOUS it becomes that it was a "Reichstag Fire" operation intended to justify more gun control. Holder must have a good lawyer, because we've heard less from him lately than from DB Cooper. If he's LUCKY, he'll just have to resign. I'm sure this goes above him too, and there's only ONE person above him.
I think you've just illustrated the point.

In the Ohio case you have an officer who is in the wrong, and presumably the police department investigated and disciplined him.

In Fast and Furious, you have an organization that is in the wrong, and is working hard to cover it up. And using every trick in the book, including character assassination of the men in Congress who are investigating them.

Deanimator
July 14, 2011, 01:38 PM
In the Ohio case you have an officer who is in the wrong, and presumably the police department investigated and disciplined him.
That's yet to be proved. The indications are to the contrary. So far, the prosecutor has offered to drop the charges in exchange for an agreement not to sue. The victim, through counsel, has wisely told the prosecutor to pound sand. A major goal appears to be to use this and other similar cases (one of which I've previously described here) as a cudgel to get the notification requirement repealed. It is now FULLY documented to be something with which Ohio police cannot be trusted.

In Fast and Furious, you have an organization that is in the wrong, and is working hard to cover it up. And using every trick in the book, including character assassination of the men in Congress who are investigating them.
That's hardly unique to Federal law enforcement. Look at the murder of Kathryn Johnston by the Atlanta PD. They stuck with the story that she was a drug dealer right up until the point that the confidential informant they tried to strongarm escaped and ran to the FBI. Heck, they even planted drugs in her house after they murdered her. All documented, and backed up by signed confessions. If the leadership of the Atlanta PD even scratched the surface to see how deep this all went, I'd be VERY surprised. I have NO doubt that they're playing the odds that outsiders won't find things which THEY know are there.

JColdIron
July 14, 2011, 01:55 PM
I think this may close the loop here. Sure seems too!

DammitBoy
July 14, 2011, 08:17 PM
Can you think of anything so outrageous as the government committing a crime, and then government shills smearing the people investigating the crime?

I underlined where you misspelled the words 'more' and 'common'...

Vern Humphrey
July 14, 2011, 08:59 PM
I underlined where you misspelled the words 'more' and 'common'...
Sadly, you are right.

Millwright
July 15, 2011, 12:03 AM
Sure was !! And what a "ready made" vehicle for the Obama Administration to use to achieve its goals, too !! All they had to do was dump some funding for straw purchases in and have ATF field agents ordered not to interdict the transfer of the SP guns ! Its a "win win" ! If it succeeds the radical wing of the DNP and the President gets their wish. If it "blows up", they can spin it to claim - like you - "Bush did it" !!

You might want to check the arrest/prosecution record of this op prior to '08. The reason why CUBATF exists is due to "higher up echelon" ordering field agents to let the guns walk; clearly a 180' turn from previous practice, per sworn testimony by agents . >MW

publius
July 15, 2011, 08:06 AM
Email to Gunwalker Bill Newell:

We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on multiple long gun sales.

I think Gomer said it best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_1Pw1xm9U

kis2
July 15, 2011, 05:13 PM
where are you all following this story? what are some places to keep up to date on it? fox and cnn have more important things going on apparently.

Chief_Cabioch
July 15, 2011, 07:34 PM
Absolutely, the ATF tried to force Randy Weaver to sell an illegal shot gun to an aquaintance, when Weaver refused, they turned their rath on him and his family, and we know what that resulted in,....dont we.

Chief_Cabioch
July 15, 2011, 07:38 PM
Davek1977, ....if the Congress doesnt seem to be able to find out, the ATF and DOJ refuse to co operate, as well as Mexican officials, so how would you know if class three weapons are involved or not ?

Chief_Cabioch
July 15, 2011, 07:44 PM
Davek, it appears you might be mistaken about class three weapons involvement.

Fast and Furious - NewsandSentinel.com | News, Sports, Jobs ...
www.newsandsentinel.com/page/content.detail/id/549829.html - CachedFast and Furious. Stop coverups in government. July 10, 2011 ... including some fully automatic weapons, to "straw buyers" in Texas and Arizona. ... ATF officials involved with "Fast and Furious," he was prohibited from telling Congress ...
►pons involvement..

sig232
July 16, 2011, 11:47 AM
How many times do the alphabet agencies have to prove to us that they are criminal to the core. Busting the little guy who mistakenly makes an SBR, or kids who make prank phone calls. In the mean time, they let the big dogs (mafia, domestic terrorism/ religious cults) slip through the cracks.

Baba Louie
July 16, 2011, 02:45 PM
what are some places to keep up to date on it?kis2, check out David Codrea's link below. He's been on this since day 1 more or less (with others as well). I think CBS was the first mainstream news to bring it to the public's attention, soon followed by Fox.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker

It's a place to start anyway. Hope that helps

azmjs
July 16, 2011, 03:36 PM
The unpleasant odor being left on this by the conspiracy theorists and paranoiacs is going to ensure that no serious consequences for the ATF result.

Deanimator
July 16, 2011, 03:41 PM
The unpleasant odor being left on this by the conspiracy theorists and paranoiacs is going to ensure that no serious consequences for the ATF result.
Buying the "just another isolated incident" scam pushed by the shills for the administration will ensure that no serious consequences for Holder and the DoJ (and their dim witted master) result.

Too bad for you, nobody's buying the BS anymore.

There's more smoke here than from a 1,000,000,000 burning tires. Underneath lies the fires of hell.

This goes ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP, and even the deniers know it.

azmjs
July 16, 2011, 03:46 PM
Sure it does.

:rolleyes:

It's a conspiracy

kis2
July 16, 2011, 04:02 PM
Thanks Baba Louie, but I can't get that link to work. Could you double check it please?

Deanimator
July 16, 2011, 04:11 PM
Sure it does.



It's a conspiracy
I think I've heard something like that before...

Oh yeah, now I remember.

The murder of Kathryn Johnston by the Atlanta PD and the Danziger Bridge murders by the New Orleans PD. Just a couple of "conspiracy theories". Never happened at all, right...?

sig232
July 16, 2011, 04:39 PM
Azmjs, you're thick as <deleted> if you don't realize the ATF has been doing this kind of <deleted> for a very, very long time.

22-rimfire
July 16, 2011, 04:54 PM
The more I hear and read about this, the more I think it was all intenitonally done to create an atmosphere that 'they' hope turns the tide on new gun control legislation that is reported to be pending introduction. Heads need to roll way up to the top on this one....

Neverwinter
July 16, 2011, 06:57 PM
I think I've heard something like that before...

Oh yeah, now I remember.

The murder of Kathryn Johnston by the Atlanta PD and the Danziger Bridge murders by the New Orleans PD. Just a couple of "conspiracy theories". Never happened at all, right...?
I'm sure it's perfectly reasonable to look at two cases of corruption in local PDs as reasons why F&F is a conspiracy that GOES ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP of the federal government. :rolleyes:.

Gaiudo
July 16, 2011, 07:18 PM
Hopefully this will be the Watergate for 0's presidency. One can only hope and pray.

azmjs
July 16, 2011, 07:57 PM
Hope, pray, but please try to manage your expectations and be realistic...

zxcvbob
July 16, 2011, 08:09 PM
Fast and Furious is the corollary to the Obama Administration's policy of "Don't let a crisis go to waste."

They have moved on to, "If we haven't got a crisis, we'll create one."

And that was the goal of Fast and Furious -- to create a crisis by arming Mexican drug dealers with weapons purchased in the United States.
And he'll get away with it too, because Republicans in congress are scared to death of being called "racist", so they will handle Holder with kid gloves and ignore Obama completely. Obama could murder a hooker on national TV and then set the White House on fire and nothing would happen to him for fear of offending somebody.

BTW, I sent a message to my congressman yesterday, a pro-gun Democrat, asking why nobody has submitted a bill yet to defund the BATF.

armoredman
July 16, 2011, 09:07 PM
<deleted>

I certainly hope this investigation pulls down the ones responsible, whereever they may sit, and I hope it does not affect the innocent, if a single innocent actually exists in Washington, D.C., plus I hope the agencie responsible feel the sting in definded operations, helping to balance that budget.

Deanimator
July 16, 2011, 09:12 PM
I'm sure it's perfectly reasonable to look at two cases of corruption in local PDs as reasons why F&F is a conspiracy that GOES ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP of the federal government.
I'm sure that it's perfectly reasonable to dismiss all law enforcement corruption as a "conspiracy theory".

Come on, tell us how Kathryn Johnston really was a "drug dealer"...

Baba Louie
July 16, 2011, 09:32 PM
"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way" -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

...and HE was a master. Maybe THE master of Machiavellian intrigue and manipulation to get what he wanted.

Read his quote again then think about things that this agency has had happen or made happen, and all of the punishment for or to those responsible... :rolleyes:

kis2 the link works for me. Sorry. Use your google-fu grasshopper, it's out there.

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