Should I keep my mouth shut?


PDA






Jonah71
June 10, 2011, 09:44 AM
Two of the ladies in our church recently got their CCW permits. I asked one of them the other day what they had decided on for carry. She told me, "We both bought Jennings .22's" She also said they had fired a "clip" through both of them at the range. They used their Dad's old .22 revolver for the CCW test. My question is, should I say anything to them about the reliability issues? Also, since I haven't fired a Jennings since selling the peace of junk I had in the 80's, has the quality changed any? Are they even still in business? I'm only assuming they are new guns since they bought two of them but don't know. I don't want this to be a Jennings bashing thread. But I am concerned that they carry something reliable and practical for CCW. Should I say anything or just keep my big yap closed and my opinions to myself?

If you enjoyed reading about "Should I keep my mouth shut?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Nushif
June 10, 2011, 09:54 AM
Should I say anything or just keep my big yap closed and my opinions to myself?

This but for entirely different reasons. 8)

I've very, very, very, very rarely found anyone who is able to convey information like this without sounding less than irritating. Why play the lottery and potentially be just one more know it all who is bashing their guns as you (potentially and probably) most likely launch into a very educated tirade about the inferiority of a product they seem to like, where they get no word in edgewise?
I'm not saying that's necessarily what you'd do, honest. But I can rarely point at anyone who can talk to a nub about their hobby without looking like they're doing exactly that. Especially if they're passionate about it.

AKElroy
June 10, 2011, 09:55 AM
I'm old, so I have learned that every time that question needs to be asked the answer is always to keep quiet. Intersting CCW laws in MO; In Texas, and I believe in most shall-issue states with testing requirements, minimum calibers exists along with function type of weapons. In Texas, you must test with a .32acp minimum, and you are only alowed to carry a revolver if you test with a revolver. If you test with an auto pistol, you can carry either.

Sam1911
June 10, 2011, 10:00 AM
I'd say it depends entirely on your relationship with them. If you're out at the range with them, plinking or practicing, and talking guns, your opinions there might be welcomed and maybe even acted upon.

(I'd say something about choosing a .22 as well...)

If you're just chatting at church, bringing up self-defense and guns, especially just to rag on their choices, is probably going to seem gauche, and at the very least your words of wisdom will go in one ear and out the other.

Of course, it also depends on the ladies. How serious-minded are they about this, how much concern do they seem to show about needing to know how to use their guns, how seriously do they seem to take the idea of potential violence?

Do they have other mentors who have guided them to their current situation? Undoing someone elses' teaching might be fighting a losing battle.

I'd take the long view and see if there comes a right time and place to have that discussion, and see what I could do to establish myself as worthy of their attention before jumping into that.

Remllez
June 10, 2011, 10:01 AM
I would tend not to say anything directly about their choice of pistols but I would suggest they practice shooting to become proficient with the little pistols. If they shoot them enough they will likely find they have less than reliable guns for CCW. They may well come to you asking for reliable pistol recommendations. Then you can make some suggestions.

Nushif
June 10, 2011, 10:03 AM
I would tend not to say anything directly about their choice of pistols but I would suggest they practice shooting to become proficient with the little pistols. If they shoot them enough they will likely find they have less than reliable guns for CCW.

Crafty! This Rem guy knows things. Show, don't tell, let them make their own decisions.

Jonah71
June 10, 2011, 10:31 AM
Crafty! This Rem guy knows things. Show, don't tell, let them make their own decisions.
Thanks. I think you may have the right idea. I'll just keep my mouth shut unless asked. Also, I have no clue as to their budget considerations. And it looks like there's just too many negatives and ways to possibly offend.

cls12vg30
June 10, 2011, 11:15 AM
+1 what Rem said, and maybe you could go a little further. Why not suggest a friendly outing to the range? That could give a lot of opportunity to respectfully educate these ladies on all the aspects of carrying and shooting, not just choice of weapon.

W.E.G.
June 10, 2011, 11:17 AM
Let them shoot the Glock.

Zerodefect
June 10, 2011, 11:48 AM
Keep your mouth shut.

Offer to take them to the range. Since it's a .22, that cost nothing to shoot, offer to supply ammo.

Then bring some real guns for them to try as well.

Let them make up their own mind.

m1911.10mm
June 10, 2011, 12:20 PM
Without quoting the post, I have to agree with that first response from Nushif.

I'm a gun person that has a really bad time being around gun people. Too many times they have too many opinions, and those opinions always leave me wondering how they decided they are smarter than me.

Are either of them like the Church Lady that used to be on Saturday Night Live? If so, that would have been a good CHL class to be in.

.

Greg528iT
June 10, 2011, 01:02 PM
If you bring it up at all, bring it up in the form of questions. "How do you like it?" "Do you think it'll be reliable?" "Have you planned on shooting / practicing with it a lot?" You can the respond with more questions or answers to them, like.. "I had heard, I had not the best experience myself but was hoping they had straightened everything out"
"have they?" comeing out and saying what someone has bought is CRAP, will only put them on the defensive.

Ledgehammer
June 10, 2011, 01:03 PM
Then bring some real guns for them to try as well.

Sorry, but a .22 is a VERY REAL gun. It's capable of taking a life, especially if shot multiple times. It freaks me out when I see statements like that. Like you think it's a toy and you go out in your yard like it's a waterpistol.

If these are old ladies .22 might be all they can handle. It will get the job done if they train to shoot multiples and hit where they aim.

Carl N. Brown
June 10, 2011, 01:18 PM
I have a Jennings that I picked up at least 15 years ago. It was my wife's office gun until I got her a .38 Taurus and took the J22 back as a backup woods carry gun, last ditch JIC. Once a year, I take it out and shoot the four magazines empty, clean the gun, and load the magazines with fresh CCI Stinger ammo (it also shot Aguila 60gr SSS well too).

That said, I would not recommend a Jennings J22 (especially used) without a checkout at the range with a variety of ammo. The ones I have seen used I would rate as abused and poorly maintained on the average.

Sky
June 10, 2011, 01:29 PM
Kinda same situation but different subject has happened to me. I would have congratulated them on their CHL and told them if they ever have any questions or problems feel free to call or ask. Rem's idea as with others was great. Nothing like buying something you are excited about and having someone tell you they bought the same thing for hundreds less or..... what you purchased, is less than dirt between your toes or lent in some one's pocket. Not exactly a good way to earn respect and friends.

Jim NE
June 10, 2011, 01:41 PM
I also agree with Remllez. That's a good place to start. That is, if there's a range close AND they don't feel intimidated about going there, as novice ladies sometimes do (if they aren't accompanied by a knowledgable friend.)


Anyway, I'd share your apprehension, Jonah...the Jennings .22 was THE WORST firearm I'd ever shot or owned. Jammed ALL the time. Maybe their guns are from the last few years of Jennings, and of better quality. Mine was also from the '80's. "Mind your own business" is my mantra and number one philosophy, but I'd follow up on it if you feel they still aren't familiar enough with their guns. What's worse - hurt feelings or dead friends?

JustinJ
June 10, 2011, 02:53 PM
Some people are grown up enough to accept the fact that other people know things that they do not so i would mention it. Just do it with tact and try to work it into a conversation in a way that doesn't sound like you're trying to teach them something. If they are the type of people to get upset at someone for trying to help them i wouldnt worry too much about their opinions.

Paladin7
June 10, 2011, 02:53 PM
What did Jesus say about casting pearls among swine in Matt 7:6? Something about them not understanding, trampling them to pieces and then turning and tearing you apart.

So, based on this, I'd say it depends on the person(s) you are speaking to, especially if these folks are emotional thinkers, then its really not worth your time and effort, just keep them in prayer.

Also, glad there are people around like you who care...

HisSoldier
June 10, 2011, 03:04 PM
Some people are grown up enough to accept the fact that other people know things that they do not so i would mention it.

Women are better at receiving advice generally than men, they don't have the blinding egos and assume correctly that the average man knows more about guns than the average woman.

Obviously not true in all cases.

voyager4520
June 10, 2011, 03:13 PM
I wouldn't say anything. They know they're comfortable with .22, budget was probably a factor in choosing a Jennings. They've made up their minds, and if they experience any problems they'll probably just switch to revolvers.

Nagant
June 10, 2011, 03:20 PM
Hopefully they don't experience "problems" when they need to use these pistols to defend themselves. I will NEVER understand people who purchase the crappiest, cheapest, smallest-caliber pistol they can find to defense themselves and their families...

Pyro
June 10, 2011, 03:26 PM
They could have bought a Raven or similar .25 acp for the same price that is 100% reliable. My Titan .25 has never failed me after I fixed it up.
Let them learn on their own, my experience with the J-22 is bad. A jam-o-matic. But I still want one because it is a sleek looking little gun.

I will NEVER understand people who purchase the crappiest, cheapest, smallest-caliber pistol they can find to defense themselves and their families...
The first two seem to be an opinion.
Small caliber handguns can be effective if you know how to use it.
I just don't feel like spending $700 on a .45 + holster.

GLOOB
June 10, 2011, 03:41 PM
From what I've read, these pistols are not only very reliable, but durable as well. There's more info over at the jiminez-bryco forums.

I'm not sure they can be carried with one in the pipe, though.

There's the ole saying. A .22 in the purse is better than the 9mm at home. Or still in the gunstore. Heck, that applies to me. Since the novelty wore off, I rarely carry anything.

What one starts out carrying will often change. Let 'em learn like everyone else. If you take a poll, I bet most of the members here have gone through an average of 3 CCW's, so why are we such "experts" if we can't even make up our minds?

NG VI
June 10, 2011, 03:45 PM
Why don't (and I skipped most of the thread, if someone already brought it up) you ask them to come to the range with you, bring a couple of bricks of various .22, and shoot with them for a full afternoon or day. Worst case, they get a little more trigger time in, and it's easier to explain that time behind the sights is extremely important than that they bought refuse guns.

Best case the guns act like the Jennings they are and you can clearly and politely point out how that performance level is unacceptable in a gun they will be relying on. And will allow you to point out that .22LR is the least reliable caliber and is kind of below acceptable momentum levels. Have some of your more above board pistols that could be used for carry in the car, so you can show them some higher quality alternatives.

If they actually work fine for a couple of hundred rounds, well I guess they beat their own reputation.

GLOOB
June 10, 2011, 03:53 PM
Better idea. Why don't YOU buy a J-22 for only $100.00 and give it a whirl. I have a $135.00 HP22A, and after breaking it in and tuning it up, it's just as reliable as my G21 and G19. 100% not counting bad ammo, give or take 0.0000%, with a high enough round count to be meaningful. FTR, that makes it more reliable than my MkIII, G27, Cougar, my 9x18 pistols, and just about every other gun I own. All of those guns have had at least 1 unexplicable failure to feed or eject. I absolutely trust that mousegun to go bang 10 times in 2 seconds with good ammo.

Shadow 7D
June 10, 2011, 04:02 PM
For MAYBE twice what they paid for those gun, but most likely 50 -100 dollars more, actually for about the same, the could have bought a Hi Point, or a CZ82 or a FEG PA-63 or...

There are LOTS of budget type guns,
However, I would TAKE them shooting, and shoot the piss out of those guns, Now, some work, BUT most are NOT what you would call quality, SOME actually work and I've seen the targets of ONE that was VERY accurate.

I guess when you make crap, you can make a gem, about as often as those to make the gems, have one turd in.

Hoth206
June 10, 2011, 09:15 PM
Funny, a lot of those stories we like to read of someone actually using a gun in self defense involve cheap, old, and/or neglected guns. RG revolvers, Ravens, grandpappy's old .38 that hasn't seen the light of day since 1951 loaded with standard pressure RNL's. While more often than not you don't hear of them killing, but rather doing exactly what they're designed to...fending off criminals. Nobody like's having a pistol pointed at them.

Let them pick the pistol that they want (and are comfortable with the pricetag of) and down the road they go. If they're anything like the ladies at my church (one of which keeps an M1 carbine for HD) then there's a pretty slim chance they're gonna be doing any high risk raid's with 'em. Take the ladies shooting and if they malfunction and one/both decides on their own to go with something else, then fine. If they work fine then everybody's happy.

MICHAEL T
June 10, 2011, 10:08 PM
Don't waste you time. my older brother and his wife both have Taurus TP-22 for carry and haven't even bothered to fire them . I have tried to talk to them and have better luck talking to a tree. Thing is he knows all the trouble I had with a Taurus TP-22 and the trips back to factory. .
If their happy you be happy and leave them alone.

Effigy
June 10, 2011, 10:52 PM
If they went through the trouble and expense of getting a CCW license, you'd think they'd be willing to invest in a decent gun. Chances are they just don't realize the reliability problems of some cheapy guns. I second the recommendation to take them out shooting (which they should be doing even if their Jennings is reliable). If problems come up, then you can easily recommend other things without looking like a gun snob.

Jonah71
June 11, 2011, 10:58 AM
Not a gun snob at all. But I do know what hasn't worked for me. (and it usually wasn't the fault of the gun) My first legal CCW gun was a Taurus Mod. 94 (or92) Ultra Lite .22 mag. 8 shot snubby. Carried it for 2 months before getting a Taurus PT 24/7 Pro Comp. 9mm (worked great btw), then Bersa Thunder Del. .380 and have since gone through a bunch of others trying to find just the right one for me. Everything from a Kimber Pro .45, old Sig P6, Kahr CW.40 and others, and now I just usually go with the G 26 and G 23 with the old Mod. 36 5 shot rev. But as great as they are (especially the 26), I still don't like the way the Glocks fit my hand. The Taurus 9mm was more comfortable. The perfect carry gun for me would be the one that feels and shoots like my old steel CZ 75B but smaller and lighter. Unfortunately, I don't think such a gun is made.

I'm going to at least invite them to the range while keeping my mouth shut and let them come to their own conclusions.

Mike J
June 11, 2011, 11:23 AM
I'm going to at least invite them to the range while keeping my mouth shut and let them come to their own conclusions.

That sounds like a good idea to me Jonah. Especially the keeping your mouth shut part. I have offended folks more than once when I gave unsolicited opinions.

oerllikon
June 11, 2011, 11:32 AM
"oh, you have a Jennings? I used to have one"
"how did you like that, etc"
"i got rid of it because it sucked/I didnt care for it"

smooth, but gets the point across

EmGeeGeorge
June 11, 2011, 11:36 AM
I have a chrome jennings j22 that has never had a misfeed, stoppage, etc... stingers, aguila sss, thunderbolts, mini-mags just go thru it no prollum...

I have a black j22 that consistently misfeeds...

I had a Keltec P3AT that I couldnt run a mag thru, I had a P32 that only worked with round ball of one type...

seems like some guns are like brand new volkswagons, either it'll run forever with no maint, or they day after you drive it off the lot its problem after problem...

psyshack
June 11, 2011, 11:52 AM
I don't know about the laws in your state. But here you qualify with a revolver your stuck with it unless you update. Qualify with a auto you can carry both. I would hate to think the lady's could get in trouble for carrying the wrong type of pistol.

And Yes I would say something to the lady's. I would be very frank about there choice. And all but beg them to make sure they know how to shoot them and maintain the pistols.

bbuddtec
June 11, 2011, 06:17 PM
I think Zero said take them to the range... +1, and showing them care of their weapon and "range rules" will spare them humility, perhaps, should they happen upon a less thoughtful person.

NMGonzo
June 11, 2011, 06:27 PM
Keep quiet; they know what they know.

1SOW
June 11, 2011, 06:31 PM
You might add to some of the range ideas. Suggest that others have mentioned "some problems with that pistol using "some" types of ammo. Recommend they try shooting a 100 rds at the range (maybe with you) to test the "ammo" they are using. This might lead to questions/suggestions that could help them out.

.22lr is definitely better than nothing. A reliable .22 is needed to make that true.

whalerman
June 11, 2011, 06:34 PM
There's other ways to look at this. They are church goers. The obtained their carry permits. They are exercising their rights. And they're nice ladies. Wish we had more of them type around here. Be positive. Be friendly. Don't be a judge about their gun choice.

mjsdwash
June 12, 2011, 04:33 AM
Most people Ive talked to never had a problem with the first clip, which is what counts. My Sundance(jennings-bryco submodel) went 40 rounds before breaking, and 40 more before breaking again. Good enough for a gunfight, if the caliber works for you.

WardenWolf
June 12, 2011, 05:37 AM
Well, given that it's a .22, chances are the potmetal can take it. But I'd definitely quietly let them know that the Jennings may not be reliable enough to save their life should they need it. Putting it that way will let them know you're genuinely concerned for their safety without sounding like a gun snob. A .32 ACP would probably be a good fit for them.

9mmforMe
June 12, 2011, 07:12 AM
I'm for seeing if the ladies would like to go shooting with you at a public range, just for fun, and interject comments as needed in a tactful manner once you are shooting. You can best assess and offer the most helpful advice in this type of atmosphere.

PabloJ
June 12, 2011, 07:21 AM
I would not get involved. In America lot of people get annoyed when one tells them how it really is. Blissful ignorance seems to be the preferred route.

9mmforMe
June 12, 2011, 01:22 PM
Oh, I don't know if "In America lot of people get annoyed when one tells them how it really is." There are many openminded people who want to listen if you approach them correctly, with respect and genuine concern.

Sam1911
June 12, 2011, 02:22 PM
... if you approach them correctly, with respect and genuine concern.


...and in the appropriate setting.

ripp
June 12, 2011, 02:39 PM
real guns yes, 9mm, no, at least, not at first. A Browning or Ruger .22 and some fun, yes, a lot of blast and recoil, for little old ladies, first time out? No, hell no.

achttung
June 12, 2011, 02:46 PM
Ever get in a womans car, and its making some terrible noise, or vibrating, etc?

Bring it up, and they say 'Oh, is that bad?'

They could go shooting, have misfires, jams, etc, and just accept it as normal operation.

If I was in your shoes, I'd probably tell them I've heard good and bad things about their gun, and suggest they be sure to spend some time shooting it to know what they really have.

Tomcat47
June 12, 2011, 02:57 PM
I have had a few J-22's .... 1 out of 4 was a Jam-o-matic!

I had 2 blue, and 2 chrome!

1 Blue was Jam-o-matic! 1 Blue flawless-everytime!

Unfortunately I busted the slide on BOTH chrome with Stingers!

I would at the very least convince them to shoot regularly and DO NOT USE STINGERS!

The Owners manual States Use STANDARD ammunition!

So the two I broke.....MY FAULT! they were working great and not jam-o-matics....right up to the slide breaking! both probably ate aprox 100 rounds of stingers before the inevitable!

And seems like later in life I seen a little piece of paper in the box with them that said DO NOT USE CCI STINGER AMMUNITION? maybe a different gun but I know I seen that with one of the cheaper .22 auto's

larryh1108
June 13, 2011, 09:33 AM
The perfect carry gun for me would be the one that feels and shoots like my old steel CZ 75B but smaller and lighter. Unfortunately, I don't think such a gun is made.

Ah, but there is one made. It's called the CZ-75B Compact. The PCR comes with the alloy frame. A CZ-75B that is smaller (compact model) lighter (alloy model) and shoots like his big brother. I have one and love it.

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/CZ%20USA/CZPCRleft1-1.jpg

Scott Farkus
June 13, 2011, 10:24 PM
Without quoting the post, I have to agree with that first response from Nushif.

I'm a gun person that has a really bad time being around gun people. Too many times they have too many opinions, and those opinions always leave me wondering how they decided they are smarter than me.
I couldn't agree more - glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I seldom ever go to gun stores anymore for this very reason. I ran into a buddy at a gun show a while back and made the mistake of telling him what I was looking for. Spent the next half hour listening to 50 reasons why I shouldn't get it and ruined my whole day.

Hoppes Love Potion
November 24, 2011, 04:23 PM
I would agree on the general consensus of:

Don't be negative about their choices or methods. The essential choice has already been made - to arm themselves.

++ on the idea of taking them to the range. Any shooter needs practice, the more the better. And, it may reveal any issues or problems they have with the J-22s, and you'll be right there to help them or advise them. Also, the Jennings may turn out to be just fine, and you can confirm this by shooting theirs. Finally, you can take a couple of higher-quality handguns for them to shoot. Definitely bring a high-quality .22 if you have one, and maybe something a little stouter like a .32ACP, .380ACP, or .38Sp. in case they want to be brave.

MIgunguy
November 24, 2011, 04:27 PM
Should I say anything?
yes, their lives are potentially at stake

Strykervet
November 24, 2011, 05:33 PM
I'd find out how they ended up with them first. I'll bet the guy in the store they got 'em at saw 'em coming and figured when they came through the door he'd sell them those just so they wouldn't walk out empty handed. Seen it happen before.

I'd mention to them they'd be better suited with almost anything else, and that they were taken if that was what was recommended to them (but if they were obstinate about spending less than $100 for a "gun", well then, they got what they deserved). Some folks don't take it seriously, some shouldn't be carrying due to this.

I'd steer them towards a lightly used J-frame were it me, and offer to help pick it out. My wife has one and loves it, and I help her friends out when they get into firearms purchases for the first time (now that I think of it, kind of odd, several of her friends are buying their first firearms in their early to mid 30's...) and I say "first time" because not one yet has stopped with the one I recommended, it only gets 'em fired up!

Bash Jennings... They shouldn't even be in business to begin with. For all the laws we have about firearms, we need to trash more than half of them and implement a lemon law. I wouldn't trust my life with it, ask 'em if they do and then ask 'em if they'd drive accross the desert in a Yugo in July, should be the same answer.

SharpsDressedMan
November 24, 2011, 06:11 PM
There are some great books for women on the subject of personal defense. Often, the subject of adequate cartidges and/or handguns is part of the book, as are horror stories of inadequate guns and shootings, and ideas for better weaons and tactics. You could review some books, and buy one or two for them to read. Let them come to the common point of view we all have from that data on their own. Well, sort of. You are leading them right to the knowledge you want them to have. :)

mljdeckard
November 25, 2011, 01:18 PM
For me, it's a question of how close you are to them.

Everyone has the right to keep and carry whatever they want to. If it's anyone who I actually care if they live or die, I will discourage them from carrying inferior weapons.

It kind of depends on if they were close enough to me to listen to and care about my opinion. If they were, they probably wouldn't have picked .22s in the first place. If they didn't listen before, it's unlikely that they will listen now if I tell them that the cheap guns they just bought are junk and they need to get different ones. Pick your battles carefully.

If you enjoyed reading about "Should I keep my mouth shut?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!