Resident Alien CCW in MO


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ErikO
June 10, 2011, 04:51 PM
My wife and I are on our way to getting our CCW, training class should be in July. I was born in Illinois, she was born in British Columbia. We've been married for 15 years as of July 13th. She can not get a Missouri CCW due to the fact that she is not yet a citizen. She is a resident alien but the state of Missouri makes it very clear that the CCW here is Citizen only. This needs to be amended.

I am starting a grass-roots effort to bring CCW access to those who the US State Department and the Department of Homeland Security deem as responsable persons who may stay here under the protections of the Constitution and are free to work and persue their dreams of Citizenship.

States such as Flordia, Virginia and Maine currently have provisions allowing Resident Aliens in good standing such as my wife the ability to get a license to excercize their right to self-protection. Missouri has only had their CCW law for seven years and it was recently ammended to change the minimum age of applicants from 23 to 21 to bring it into accordance with other states. What I am asking for as a Citizen born in this country married to an upstanding resident alien is your support in our efforts to close the gap between Missouri and every other state that has CCW laws for their residents.

Fellow Missourans, pelase contact your local state legislature representatives and ask them to help Residen, Legal Aliens get MO CCW permits. At this point, my wife and I are going to go out of state with our revenue aside from training and fingerprint costs. Many folks that are here legally but not Citizens and find out that they can't get a MO CCW give up and either carry illegally or not at all, neither of which is a good choice if one is concerned for their safety.

I have zero intentions of getting NRA-ILR involved as they have no dog in this fight. They fought to get CCW here and were part and parcell to the exclusion of folks like my wife. I do not intend to sue to get this amended as that should not be needed. If push comes to shove and those reps in Jefferson City decide to keep the backward-facing provision of US Citizenship as a requirement when so many other states do not it would seem a courtroom may be needed.

That is why I am asking for your support. I am not seeking public office. I am not asking for financial support. All I ask is that you help me by contacting your state reps on our behalf to get LEGAL RESIDENTS OF MO the ability to get their CCW while they persue their citizenship.

Thanks.

Thanks!

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Sebastian the Ibis
June 10, 2011, 06:09 PM
Only the Federal Government can discriminate based upon immigration status. This is a situation where a lawsuit may quickly resolve this issue, since this is a fight that the NRA and SAF have fought and won before. See e.g.:

http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=281

You may want to familiarize yourself with the record in that case, and forward copies of the court documents to your local legislators. If you need help obtaining them PM me.

ErikO
June 11, 2011, 12:15 AM
Since our CCW just recently got amended to lower the age of availability from 23 to 21 to match other states, I want to give the state legislature a chance to see if they can do some of their 'quid pro quo' to adjust this again. While a lawsuit may have this working quicker, and there is plenty of case law in other states to show that these things will stick, I'm trying it this way first.

I don't imagine that NRA-ILA would bother helping as they would have noting politically to gain from this. I have zero faith that they are really trying to do more than advance their own agenda and not really protect the 2nd amendment. If needed I will approach the 2AF and the ACLU to get this moving but only if needed. Thankfully, the reps in my area are pro-immigrant even if the rest of my state government is a bunch of 'good ol' boy' networked hicks that don't know the difference between illegal immigrant and resident alien. Last year they tried to invalidate EVERY non-Citizen's state driver's license.


Our current plan is to get FL non-res permits. I made that point to my reps as well; the state is loosing revenue to another state on this issue. Money tends to talk...

AirForceShooter
June 11, 2011, 10:37 AM
ACLU currently has a suit going on this very issue.

AFS

RadioHack
June 11, 2011, 07:17 PM
I'm not a US Citizen, but I do have a CHL in the State of Texas. MO honours a Texas CHL because of the reciprocity agreements. I wonder if I would have a problem during a hypothetical traffic stop whilst visting the "Show me State"?

Resident Aliens are usually much better at avoiding any near occassions of sin and crime than most Natural Born Citizens. It's the illegal aliens (who have ALREADY broken the law by their illegal entry into the country) who should be prevented from carrying weapons.

hso
June 12, 2011, 10:01 PM
Several posts were deleted from the thread because they deviated from posting requirements.

If you don't support the OP's plan, don't carry it out and don't tear it down.

If you have some improvement or relevant observation of an obstacle that must be overcome please contribute.

If you want a discussion, take it up in Activism Discussion.

ErikO
June 12, 2011, 11:25 PM
The larger picture is that no other state requires Citizenship just residency.

I was just looking here for support from other Missourans. Thanks to the couple that will, sorry for wasting the time and bandwidth of the many who don't.

bikemutt
June 13, 2011, 08:58 AM
The larger picture is that no other state requires Citizenship just residency.

I was just looking here for support from other Missourans. Thanks to the couple that will, sorry for wasting the time and bandwidth of the many who don't.
I could be wrong but I thought I read that South Dakota has a similar requirement, or they were at least considering it in the legislature very recently.

ErikO
June 13, 2011, 09:12 AM
They do and there is a pending ACLU case there.

Ben86
June 13, 2011, 10:59 AM
ErikO,

I have a similar situation. My wife is a permanent resident from Vietnam, and has been in this country for about 8 years now with no criminal record. Yet the MS permit office still says she has to be a citizen to get a CCW permit, even though citizenship is not listed as a requirement under MS law. I've tried to find a lawyer to help us out, but none seem to want to touch it.

I've tried contacting the NRA. They don't seem to care. They've recommended some lawyer who doesn't want to get involved twice now. I think you are on the right track trying to get local reps involved.

My wife and I have pretty much accepted that we have to wait for her to get her citizenship or get a FL PR friendly CCWP, which works in MS also. Good luck, I hope you are able to make a difference. Not only for your wife, but for many law abiding, legal immigrants who just want to carry a concealed pistol for SD.

Husker_Fan
June 13, 2011, 11:44 AM
I believe SD was sued in January, and the legislature is looking to fix it rather than fight a losing lawsuit.

Keep up on that case. When a decision is reached or the state legislature changes the law, make sure your local reps know what is going on. They would rather fix the law than waste the money on a loosing lawsuit. It's not like they are Chicago.

ErikO
June 13, 2011, 02:27 PM
Ben86: I'd go for the FL CCW. That gives both you seven years to get her citizenship finished. It sucks that yours is not a legislative case; check in with the law colleges and see if any of them would be willing to help out.

Husker_Fan: I'll keep my eye on South Dakota and see if the ACLU path has any traction.

With any luck I'll get to speak with my representatives in state government this week or next so I can see what they are willing to help with from their end.

bikemutt
June 13, 2011, 02:39 PM
Before trying to circumvent MS law by obtaining a FL or other non-resident permit, I'd suggest making sure there isn't some wording in MS reciprocity law precluding such things. After all, if the intent of MS law is to prevent RAs from CC, they may have imagined this obvious loophole and made an effort to close it.

Just saying.

ErikO
June 13, 2011, 03:35 PM
Not in MO, but that is a good point about MS. I haven't looked into states that don't have non-resident CCW so i can't answer to that one.

Reciprocity in MO is iron-clad, thankfully.

Toforo
June 13, 2011, 08:38 PM
If this is you (and it should be) ......
http://www.bersachat.com/forums/showthread.php/10012-I-may-be-pissing-in-the-wind-here-but-here-goes.

...a lot of good information for you here in the past few days; up to and including -

your recently learning (quote from your post there) -
"Ok, I hadn't checked the USCIS website for a few years. The process of becoming a Citizen is streamlined quite a bit. $680 covers the admin fees + biometrics. The citizenship test is tough, but there are online study guides. Standard passport photos are now accepted as well, lowering the cost immensly. Also, as my net worth has improved dramatically since my wife got her RA status the costs that were 'very high' before now just mean that I'd have to put off getting my own handgun a bit longer"

This thread - and the one cited above begs the question (honestly and NOTHING inflammatory intended) -
- after 15 years, if one wanted to take advantages of all of the "rights" of our nation's constitution, as well as the rights of individual states, isn't it time to just become a naturalized citizen?
Does "dual citizenship" apply or help the situation?

:scrutiny::scrutiny:

ErikO
June 14, 2011, 01:06 AM
duplicate post

Ben86
June 14, 2011, 02:53 AM
Before trying to circumvent MS law by obtaining a FL or other non-resident permit, I'd suggest making sure there isn't some wording in MS reciprocity law precluding such things. After all, if the intent of MS law is to prevent RAs from CC, they may have imagined this obvious loophole and made an effort to close it.

Just saying.

That would be a good point if there was actually anything in MS law prohibiting permanent residents from obtaining a permit, but there is not. This has been verified by the NRA. It seems it is just the permit office making up arbitrary rules. Xenophobia, I don't know. ;)

ErikO, good suggestion about law colleges I didn't consider that. You might want to try to get a petition going. That will help make the case that this isn't just your concern, but the concern of many permanent residents and citizens alike.

Toforo
June 14, 2011, 08:44 AM
ErikO - well fortunately, as long as she is LEGALLY able to purchase and own a gun, whether it be a long-gun (rifle, shotgun, etc) or a handgun, Missouri does NOT prevent her from buying one.
(MO driver's license or MO state issued ID card to prove residency, plus the usual requirements whether it's an FFL purchase of a Face-to-Face purchase, etc)

Although a CCW WOULD be nice, it just doesn't seem to be within MO's cards right now.

She CAN (and should) buy a home defense and personal defense weapon and doesn't need a CCW to do so - AS LONG AS SHE DOESN'T CONCEAL CARRY IT.

MO's laws are pretty liberal - you mentioned "in car" - you can keep a handgun (or two, or three, or five) in your car - glove compartment, under-the-seat, center-console, over-head visor - heck, lay it on the floor between your feet AS LONG AS YOU DON'T CONCEAL IT ON YOUR PERSON (pocket, purse, IWB holster, etc)

In your home and home defense? Put it where you want, how you want it, and when you want.

Additionally, you've referenced several times about the upcoming change to MO's CCW/Gun laws - i.e. the change in age from 23 to 21 for CCW (and a few other things) - Although this HAS PASSED the MO House and Senate, it still hasn't been signed into law by the Governor, consequently, those changes haven't been formally approved yet.

Finally, if the cost of "citizenship" is slowing you down.... take a moment to also figure in the cost of getting your CCW (multiplied by two)
approximations:
100.00 for CCW class (sometimes you can find a free one, not often)
100.00 to the local sheriff (total, some to the local, some to the state)
25.00 for the permit itself
That's 225.00 EACH (MINIMUM) and doesn't include your ammunition or gun for only ONE of you.


:)

ErikO
June 14, 2011, 09:49 AM
Yep, your totals on the CCW are close.

What I've found is this:

MO CCW: $100 (love being in St Louis County...full amount, thank you)
Fingerprints: $40 (same as any other state's NR CCW cost)
Training at favored location (great trainers, range time included): $125
Non-driver's license: $22
Gun + ammo + holster for CCW: ~$500
Citizenship: $680
Total CCW cost: ~$1500

FL CCW (Permit + fingerprints): $117
training: $125
Gun+Ammo+Holster: ~$500
Total cost: $742

Financially its a no-brainer. Gun+Training + FL CCW now with Citizenship being the next step.

Actually, MO CCW (and reciprical state issued CCW) allows concealed carry off your property. While on your own property you can carry concealed without a CCW permit.

Thanks for clarifying the car issue, I did not realize that we could have one in a holster inside our central console without having to have a CCW. That is very good to know.

Yeah, it does seem that Gov Nixon is sitting on the changes and will not sign them.

I also heard back from one of the folks that is highly placed in the CCW 'movement' here. They are pretty sure that due to the 'hot button' status of Immigration in general that no changes to the CCW will happen for years. This make some sense, but the effect is that I am now going to be working to expand the access to the rights of RA's in MO to match those of 75% of the rest of the country. Abridgement of rights that are Self-Evident is tyranny in its basest form and I am not going to 'let it pass'.

Resident Aliens love america (that's why they went through the Residency BS in the first place), follow the laws of the land (if for no other reason than to not get deported AFTER having delt with the RA BS) and CAN'T GET WELFARE. It really does feel like I am screaming at the universe when I try to explain to people that RA's are *NOT* smuggling drugs, commit less than 1% of overall crime and are ineligeable for welfare programs of any kind. It seems that folks see the word 'Alien' and think 'wetback'.

bikemutt
June 14, 2011, 12:12 PM
Not sure if this is encouraging for you or not but, my N-400 was received by USCIS April 14, 2011, my Biometrics appointment was scheduled for and completed on May 25, 2011, my interview is scheduled for Mid July.

Of course that's in the greater Seattle area, I'm sure USCIS time frames are location dependent.

And in all fairness I did engage the services of an immigration lawyer although I'm not sure that materially affects time frames. I just want peace of mind knowing all my T's are crossed and I's dotted.

wooldl
June 14, 2011, 03:00 PM
ErikO,

Your cost breakdown looks good except that it does not account for the MO permit being only a 3-year permit and the FL being a 7-year. Obviously the US citizenship portion and the training portions can be deducted, but the way I see it, the FL license is a better deal, financially. As an IL resident myself, the FL or UT permits were my only real options, but financially I think it makes sense for MO residents to get the FL license as well. Unless I'm missing something.

Dale

ErikO
June 14, 2011, 04:27 PM
Wooldl, that's true. Here they are looking into expanding the timeframe to 5 years from 3, that was a consession made to get CCW on the books here. It sounds like pigs will get sucked into flying jet engines before any further changes happen to CCW for a while.

That doesn't mean that I'll stop working on this issue. ;)

ErikO
June 14, 2011, 04:29 PM
Not sure if this is encouraging for you or not but, my N-400 was received by USCIS April 14, 2011, my Biometrics appointment was scheduled for and completed on May 25, 2011, my interview is scheduled for Mid July.

Of course that's in the greater Seattle area, I'm sure USCIS time frames are location dependent.

And in all fairness I did engage the services of an immigration lawyer although I'm not sure that materially affects time frames. I just want peace of mind knowing all my T's are crossed and I's dotted.

That is encouraging. I'm also sure that the process here in St Louis will be much faster than it was when this whole thing started in Chicago in the '90's. ;) Her last renewal took about an hour to do and that included 'line time'. lol In Chicago it was taking two hours just to get into teh building let alone up the stairs...

wow6599
June 14, 2011, 07:43 PM
Your cost breakdown looks good except that it does not account for the MO permit being only a 3-year permit and the FL being a 7-year

I just got mine renewed about 6 weeks ago. The cost........$0. When I went to Clayton with my paperwork in hand I asked how much and the girl behind the counter said "we're not currently charging for renewals". I did have to pay $7.00 (I think?) for a new CCL at the DMV.

ErikO
June 14, 2011, 09:54 PM
That is also good news. Everything I've heard from others here in St Louis County is that they end up paying the max possible.

Seabee Vet
June 15, 2011, 06:27 AM
What makes your wife owning a handgun and CCW more important than her citizenship? You seem to be trying every option to avoid our laws, claiming poverty as a reason for not processing her citizenship even though it has been shown that your route of CCW and gun ownership is more expensive than her citizenship. Aren't your priorities a little misplaced?

Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not against legal immigration at all. Maybe it's just me but, it appears your avoiding her citizenship. Just my humble opinion but I think she may have already received her citizenship had the energy put into the CCW been placed in that direction.

Trying real hard not to be ugly or harsh. I just saw your plea and read each and every post. Your leaving me with a feeling there is a whole lot you haven't told us. :)

ErikO
June 15, 2011, 12:00 PM
OK, I totally ment zero disrespect with any comment I've made. Comming from a family myself with recent immagrants throughout our history here in the US (mostly from Norway, not that it matters) I am overly sensative to any injustice done to immigrants - both real and percieved. Every generation of my family line has had at least one if not more immigrants that have come to the US to better their current and future family's lives. It seems to me that many forget that there are many more of us that have not been here for hundreds of years than those that have. My perception has been that folks see Alien before they see Legal and assume none have the right to be here and be safe until they are Citizens. Laws are here to protect citizens and visitors alike, but only citizens have a say in how they are written and who writes them. That is why it's me and not my wife that is vocal on this particular cause.

I also felt that I had answered the questions about my wife's bid for citizenship, but here's some additional information. She has her federally-approved resident status and we are in the process of restarting her bid for Citizenship. We're in a position to get her paperwork moving ahead again. We were concerned that her citizenship could get revoked at any moment due to her being liberal minded. That grew out of the fact that the former cheif of Homeland Securty under W had stated that any proof found under the Patriot Act that showed they 'lacked moral character' a naturalized citizen would result in denaturalization and loss of citizenship status. "Moral Character" of all Liberals has been under fire for some time and The patriot Act reads more liek the Alien and Seditious Speech Act. At this point, her desire to be a Citizen is stronger than her fears.

My wife's needs for CCW are not more important than her Citizenship. Her lack of naturalization also should not stand in the way of her personal safety.

Really, this issue is more than just my wife's inability to get a MO CCW at this time. She'll be getting a FL non-resident with me this year after we submit her paperwork for naturalization. The issue is that while RA's are waiting to be eligable for naturalization, they are only able to keep themselves secure in their person in their homes or possibly their cars without having to go out of state to secure their personal safety. If no other state had set precidence for allowing folks that are legally residing in the United States in general to gain the legal ability to be covertly armed, I would never have thought to go down this road. The question in my mind at this point becomes less one of 'why do the other states have it' and more of 'why don't all states that allow CCW extend it to legal non-citizens'?

Many have stated that Immigration Law is too hot a topic to discuss without things getting ugly. While there are many different perspectives on illegal immigration, I don't understand the hostility being shown twards those who are going through the process legally. Citizens don't 'magically' gain rights and the government doesn't 'bestow' them either. This is not just 'changing the law' to suit me. This is 'when it is wrong, bring it to right'.

CathyGo
June 15, 2011, 01:21 PM
Citizens don't 'magically' gain rights and the government doesn't 'bestow' them either. This is not just 'changing the law' to suit me. This is 'when it is wrong, bring it to right'.

Nothing magical about the Constitution. People in other countries don't enjoy the same rights as we do. Some have different rights like the right to "ramble" or walk out in the country without worrying about who's property it is. We'd like to think that the right to carry a gun is universal but it isn't.

Some states will accept just about anything as identification for a drivers license and don't even verify immigration status(legal or illegal). Others don't stop and consider the in-between legal status of a RA. Not a citizen but they are here legally and should be able to drive. Does that mean that all states should have to adhere to the most lenient state's laws? Nope, and it's the same thing with guns. Just because one state allows non-citizens to carry doesn't mean another state has to. That's their choice.

Citizens have the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed in the Constitution. Non-citizens do not. Yes, our citizenship process is more than a little bit flawed. Too expensive and many high school grads born and raised in America couldn't pass the test. It takes WAY too long. But you could have gotten the ball rolling a lot earlier and chose not to. There are groups that help with the fees and forms.

I'm also not a big fan of the Patriot Act but I don't think your fears are founded unless she belongs to a group that is considered subversive or has links to terrorist.

Bottom line: You need to become a citizen to enjoy the rights given to a citizen.

Six
June 15, 2011, 01:27 PM
Citizens have the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed in the Constitution. Non-citizens do not.

[Citation Needed]

The constitution carefully uses the word citizen when it means citizen, and people when it means people.

hso
June 15, 2011, 01:53 PM
More people seem to want to ignore the original topic and argue about whether a resident alien should even be granted a CCW or not so we're just going to close this and suggest if a debate on whether resident aliens in the U.S. should have this right extended to them or not is still wanted it should take place in Activism Discussion.

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