Accuracy: Revolver vs Semi-Auto


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KJS
June 11, 2011, 04:30 AM
Are revolvers inherently less accurate than semi-autos?

With a revolver there will always be a tiny bit of play where the cylinder can turn clockwise or counter-clockwise, making it impossible to line it up absolutely perfect with the barrel. A semi-auto never has this issue as the chamber is the end of the barrel.

Conversely, are there other factors that make revolvers more accurate than auto-loaders?

I ask this purely as a theoretical question of curiosity. I sure can't shoot accurately enough to tell and suspect very few gun owners can. I'm sure for all practical purposes it doesn't matter with accuracy limited by the shooter and not the equipment.

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RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 05:16 AM
Nuunooo,

Regarding play on cylinders in battery, I would refer to the threads on Pythons. It seems to be a fairly commonly held belief there is none.

I try real hard not to make assumptions about other peoples limitations. It kind of revs me up when they do it to me. And I hate double standards.

Prosser
June 11, 2011, 05:31 AM
I've got revolvers that will shoot one hole at 50 yards, maybe better. Don't know about 100, but, the bigger revolvers tend to shoot VERY well at long range.

For a litmus test, call Freedom Arms, and ask them how accurate their revolvers are, then, see if you can find an auto that can stay with them.

Counterpoint: Any custom gunsmith that is any good can get a 1911 to drive tacks...

ArchAngelCD
June 11, 2011, 05:38 AM
IMO revolvers are as accurate or more accurate than semi-autos. Many shooters feel semi-autos are more accurate because the trigger is easier to "master" compared to revolvers. If you put in enough time revolvers are great. You just need to practice with the heavier trigger associated with a revolver. Shooting SA will help if you want to do tests.

I agree with the above reference to Freedom Arms revolvers. They line bore their cylinders so they are extremely accurate. (and costly too lol)

kozak6
June 11, 2011, 05:46 AM
Semi-Autos have different potential issues, though.

With the exception of direct blowback pistols and a couple others, most automatic pistols have a barrel that rides inside a slide that rides on a frame.

Any misalignment and play between these parts can also contribute to inaccuracy.

The revolver also has the advantage of having the sights mounted on a fixed barrel and frame.

I think that semi autos and revolvers vary so much that unless you are talking about individual models, you can't really make a blanket statement relating their potential accuracies.

RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 05:59 AM
On a 1911, before the slide moves, Elvis has left the building, the bullet is on it's way.
So it is my opinion the sights on a 1911, are about as solid, in battery, as sights on a revolver.

Sport45
June 11, 2011, 06:04 AM
So it is my opinion the sights on a 1911, are about as solid, in battery, as sights on a revolver.

This is probably true for a match-built 1911. But if there's any play in the barrel to bushing or bushing to slide fit I'd give a revolver the edge for repeatability.

Pete D.
June 11, 2011, 07:26 AM
Inherently? I am unsure. My gut reaction is to say semi-auto but I really don't know.
What I do know is that in Bullseye match competition, where a premium is placed on precision/accuracy, the semi-auto rules the roost. It is rare that one sees a revolver on the line. It is also true that much higher scores have been and continue to be shot with semi-autos than with revolvers. Even in Distinguished competitions, shooters who really know their stuff, revolvers scores are lower than those for semis.
Now....is that difference because of inherent accuracy or because a semi-auto is easier to shoot accurately, especially in sustained fire stages?
Pete

RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 07:37 AM
I dont know. On some of the other threads, we have gone pages on where have all the Pythons/Model 27s gone. Why can't we get them to build a quality revolver, etc. Is the non use of revolvers because of an assumed inaccuracy, or because of lack of revolvers of equal quality to the target grade semi autos? chicken or egg?

psyshack
June 11, 2011, 10:35 AM
My CZ-52 is deadly accurate at 100 yards. Clays don't stand a chance off hand on the 100 yard berm. It's barrel is black and it's like a laser with surplus, retail or reloads. As are several others that friends own.

My 4" 686+ is almost as good as the CZ-52 in SA with very tightly reloaded .357 ammo. I look forward to purchasing a 6" 686+ and reaching out there as good as the 52 does.

My Sigma 9VE is also very accurate. It has the over all best bore I've ever seen on a production pistol. It shoots out just below the 686+. It is fun to pull it out at the range if the Sigma bashers are around and shut them up.

My M&P .45 FS is a tack driver out to the 50 yard mark at POA. After 50 yards one has to start holding her high. Nature of the beast.

At 25 yards everything I own will kill a man at near rapid fire levels. The 686+ at 25 yards is a tad tighter than the Sigma in this picture but not much.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/Tri-Target.jpg

If I bump fire the 52 I can hold the mag +1 on the plate.

First range trip with the M&P. I have gotten better with it and have removed the left to lower left pattern.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/M_Ptrags.jpg

Remove the CZ-52 from the equation and I can't hardly tell the difference in my little collection.

Jim Watson
June 11, 2011, 11:00 AM
Back when I was a kid reading about guns bigger and better than my Crossman and Marlin, it was commonly said that the typical revolver was more accurate than a typical auto.
I think that still applies at the service weapon level, like a S&W 686 vs a Colt 1991A1 or Beretta M92.

When gunsmiths started accurizing autos, the target shooters changed over not because the guns were more accurate but because they were accurate enough and were self cocking so you did not have to disturb your firing grip every shot.

Nowadays it is pretty much a wash in accuracy, a GOOD handgun will shoot nearly to the capability of the ammo. What differs is the price. A good gunsmith like Frank Glenn will accurize your 1911 or your S&W and they will both shoot about the same. But he charges $1800 for a Bullseye 1911 and $750 for a PPC K frame (on your basic gun.)

MtnSpur
June 11, 2011, 11:46 AM
It's the hand that rocks the cradle, not the cradle itself....

CraigC
June 11, 2011, 11:49 AM
I'm a little surprised the posts are so split. It's obvious that some are going by a seat of the pants "feel" and have never benchrested a handgun at all. Revolvers will always tend to shoot more accurately than service autos. As I said in theother thread, a good revolver will shoot preferred loads into 1" - 1.5" at 25yds. You'll never find a service auto in the same price range that will shoot that well. 3" to 4" is the norm for service autos. It takes a real good one, usually an accurized 1911 to break 2".

LTR shooter
June 11, 2011, 11:56 AM
What I do know is that in Bullseye match competition, where a premium is placed on precision/accuracy, the semi-auto rules the roost.

Now....is that difference because of inherent accuracy or because a semi-auto is easier to shoot accurately, especially in sustained fire stages?Pete

I think you answered your own question. Firing one handed in timed fire - 5 shots in 20 seconds - or rapid 5 shots in tens seconds , an accurized 1911 has an absolute definite advantage over thumbcocking a revolver for each shot.

I spent a good sum of money to have my Springfield Armory 1911 accurized by Clark Custom Guns. It was wonderfully accurate afterwards but no more so than my out of the box Smith 686 or 629.

A SIG P220 was the most accurate out of the box centerfire semi-auto I ever owned and did not need any tuning for excellent accuracy.

MachIVshooter
June 11, 2011, 12:04 PM
Neither design is inherently more accurate; It's all about quality. Revolvers can deform the bullets as they enter the forcing cone, and autoloaders can have slop in the barrel-slide lock-up, meaning that the sights will not align the same for every shot.

But a good quality revolver that is tight will not damage the bullet, and a tight autoloader will have cosistent barrel/sight alignment.

For a litmus test, call Freedom Arms, and ask them how accurate their revolvers are, then, see if you can find an auto that can stay with them.

Desert Eagle. Optical sights are fixed to the barrel. Incredibly accurate handguns; With my 6" .50, I had no trouble pulling off consistent 2.5"-3" 100 yard 5 shot groups from sandbags using a 1.5-4x Burris. I'm sure the gun's mechanical accuracy is even better than what I could shoot it.

Smith357
June 11, 2011, 02:12 PM
I have yet to find a $400 center fire semi automatic that can shoot as accurately as my sub $400 .38 caliber revolvers. I have seen and shot many $1000+ custom autoloaders that can shoot with my bone stock $400 guns. I'm not saying they are not out there I just have not shot any yet. Rimfires are an other story, and then there are no semi's or wheelguns comes close to a Contender or Remington XP

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/smith357/armory/Revolver/IMG_9227.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/smith357/armory/Revolver/IMG_6624.jpg

Pete D.
June 11, 2011, 02:46 PM
PSY: Please don't take this inquiry the wrong way. I don't doubt that you are a good shot. I am trying to understand what other people mean when they speak and write about accuracy. I frequently read about shooters who mention that they have great success with clays at 100 yards. It makes me wonder.
You wrote:Clays don't stand a chance off hand on the 100 yard berm.
That would be mighty fine shooting indeed. A clay bird is, what?....four inches wide. To hit a four inch target shooting off hand at 100 yards is, as I said, mighty fine shooting.
Here's the part that makes me write this post; Every one of your targets shot at 25 and 50 yards is larger in MOA than that clay is at 100 yards. Four inches at 100 translates to one inch at 25 yards (all of your 25 yard targets are at least twice that size) and to two inches at 50 yards (all of your 50 yard targets are in the four and five inch range). They are consistent with each other.
Those targets are all good shooting and worth showing but at 100 yards you'd be getting groups that are eight or more inches wide, an area four times larger than a clay. So what does "don't stand a chance" mean? I understand that you'd hit the clay some of the time. For me, "don't stand a chance" would mean that I can hit the clay at every shot.
I apologize for this bit of hijhack and for the inquiry but this kind of stuff has always made me want to ask. Now I have.
Pete

psyshack
June 11, 2011, 03:55 PM
Pete D.

The targets posted are rapid fire for the most part. 100 yard clay hits are slow fire off hand.

Rapid fire at the berm at 100 yards is a dust cloud. :)

rcmodel
June 11, 2011, 04:07 PM
in Bullseye match competition, where a premium is placed on precision/accuracy, the semi-auto rules the roost. It is rare that one sees a revolver on the line.It is rare you see a combat grade semi-auto either.

The guns that win Bullseye matches are for the most part, hand fitted match grade pistols.

A box stock S&W revolver will out shoot a box stock combat grade auto just about every time.

rc

Guillermo
June 11, 2011, 04:20 PM
There are SOOOO many variables.

Yes the sights are firmly attached to the barrel of a revolver.

Yes the trigger pull (dbl action) can be longer

So much depends on the gun itself and the trigger.

In a ransom rest the revolver has an edge (a good revolver)

In the real world...

rcmodel
June 11, 2011, 04:30 PM
Yes the trigger pull (dbl action) can be longerAH!
But it is also shorter and lighter and breaking a glass-rod crisp in SA.

For out of the box absolutely great triggers, a modern combat grade auto pistol doesn't even come close to the old S&W & Colt revolver SA triggers for target or long range accuracy.

1911 match grade guns can be made as good, but they ain't no Glock either.

rc

PO2Hammer
June 11, 2011, 04:32 PM
On a 1911, before the slide moves, Elvis has left the building, the bullet is on it's way.
So it is my opinion the sights on a 1911, are about as solid, in battery, as sights on a revolver.
It's not about that, it's about the slide, barrel and frame not retuning to the exact same position before the next shot.
Of course a well tuned 1911 can be near perfect in that department.

I shot my Freedom Arms model 97 (small frame) .357 today with a Reflex sight from a rest and was getting 2" groups at 50 yards with LSWC-HP handloads. Jacketed XTP's will do even better. Never had an auto that could do that well.

9mmepiphany
June 11, 2011, 09:10 PM
This is an interesting discussion. I didn't realize that the subject was still under discussion as I thought we answered it back in the 80s. My understanding has always been that handgun accuracy started with the single shot, went through revolvers and ended with the semi-auto.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597486

It has been my experience that service grade revolvers have always been much more inherently accurate than a service grade semi-auto. They can be made just as accurate, it just cost a lot more to take a semi-auto to that level.

PPC shooters used to say that shooting an auto was like taking a revolver's cylinder out of the frame, throwing it in dirt and putting it back together between shots.

A couple of factors in the semi-auto replacing the revolver in major competitions was more flexibility in shaping the grip to fix the users hand and the ability to maintain the shooting grip between shots in anything other than slow fire.

RugerMcMarlin
June 11, 2011, 10:45 PM
PeteD, My 14 year old daughter shoots 4" blue rock off the hundred yard berm, with her Ruger single six, and H&R Sportsman. She shoots the 6" gong with her Uncles BEARCAT. @100yds. 22s! I've watched guys pack up their stuff and go home after a little of that.

If Psy says he can do it I believe him. that CZ-52s a rifle anyway. check the balistics on that little number.

While I'm at it I had a Canadian Inglis , that shot under 2" at 25yds , allday. To who ever was blowing about the official accuracy of autos.


There is a picture of a "Perfect 10" on post # 16!

SlamFire1
June 11, 2011, 11:04 PM
I have yet to find a $400 center fire semi automatic that can shoot as accurately as my sub $400 .38 caliber revolvers. I have seen and shot many $1000+ custom autoloaders that can shoot with my bone stock $400 guns. I'm not saying they are not out there I just have not shot any yet. Rimfires are an other story, and then there are no semi's or wheelguns comes close to a Contender or Remington XP

I agree. You have to spend almost double to get a centerfire semi auto to shoot as well as a revolver in the same caliber.

Pete D.
June 12, 2011, 05:33 AM
Quote:
in Bullseye match competition, where a premium is placed on precision/accuracy, the semi-auto rules the roost. It is rare that one sees a revolver on the line.
It is rare you see a combat grade semi-auto either.

The guns that win Bullseye matches are for the most part, hand fitted match grade pistols.

A box stock S&W revolver will out shoot a box stock combat grade auto just about every time.

I have little trouble accepting that a well made stock revolver is mechanically more accurate than a stock semi-auto. Operational accuracy...? That's another ball game. A semi-auto is easier to shoot well (accurately) than a revolver (I don't often make unqualified comments like that). I base that premise on what I mentioned before....that one rarely sees revolvers at matches that require precision shooting. While it may well be true that a well made stock revolver will shoot as well or better than an "accurized" semi-auto from a rest, that ignores the practical aspects of accuracy. If revolvers produced better scores in, for instance, Bullseye matches, shooters would be still using them. They aren't using them - and these are men and women who know their way around guns and who can shoot both revolvers and semis well - because they get better scores with the semis. "Better scores" is another way of evaluating accuracy.
There is no argument that revolvers are available in chamberings and configurations that render them more accurate at long range....that is yet another way of evaluating accuracy.
Pete

CodyWayne718
June 12, 2011, 05:55 AM
No proof but it seems as if I'm more accurate with my revolver than my semi.

451 Detonics
June 12, 2011, 10:48 AM
For the same amount of money the revolver will probably win every time. Whenever I buy a revolver I check it with a range rod, if it won't take a match rod I don't buy it or I sell it off. The purpose of this is to insure perfect alignment of the cylinder and barrel which in turn helps accuracy.

Many folks do better with a SA semi auto simply because the trigger can be tuned very lightly, this is the reason the Action Pistol crowd made the change from revolvers to semi autos. The hammer fall is shorter and faster with a semi auto as well and you don't have the long double action trigger pull to contend with especially on stages like the mover.

In custom guns they are equal for the most part. These are my two NRA Action Pistol guns, the revolver is a S&W 686 built by Glenn Customs and the 1911 is a 38 Super I built myself. Both will shoot into an inch at 50 yards.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/handguns/compgunsa1.jpg

CraigC
June 12, 2011, 02:23 PM
I base that premise on what I mentioned before....that one rarely sees revolvers at matches that require precision shooting.
PPC??? You have to look at it broader. Are folks using autos because they are more accurate or because they are accurate enough but better suited to the course of fire?

As far as autos being easier to shoot accurately, that really depends on your situation. If you're shooting quickly and at shorter ranges, I would agree that mastering an auto, especially a single action auto, is "easier" than mastering a DA revolver. However, dollar for dollar and shot for shot, if precision is the name of the game then a good revolver has it all over an auto. Not many centerfire autos are capable of 2lb triggers and as stated above, a good revolver will be twice as accurate at any given range.....or better.

The Lone Haranguer
June 12, 2011, 02:40 PM
I assume this refers to its inherent, mechanical accuracy, with human elements taken out of play.
Conversely, are there other factors that make revolvers more accurate than auto-loaders?

The fixed barrel is the biggest one. A typical auto pistol, to maintain accuracy, is dependent on all the moving parts coming back into the same position each and every time it is fired.

BAGTIC
June 12, 2011, 04:07 PM
"Is the non use of revolvers because of an assumed inaccuracy, or because of lack of revolvers of equal quality to the target grade semi autos? chicken or egg? "

It is because it is harder to 'spray and pray' with a revolver.

Canuck-IL
June 12, 2011, 04:29 PM
What I do know is that in Bullseye match competition, where a premium is placed on precision/accuracy, the semi-auto rules the roost. It is rare that one sees a revolver on the line. It is also true that much higher scores have been and continue to be shot with semi-autos than with revolvers.

That's not because of accuracy - it's the difficulty most people have in cocking a revolver to single action in the timed and rapid stages.

Nonsense on the "much higher scores" - check the NRA record books for COnventional Pistol (Bullseye) - there are still records held by revolvers DESPITE cocking the hammer in rapid strings.
/Bryan

RickMD
June 12, 2011, 05:00 PM
The American Rifleman in it's latest issue did an accuracy test of a $939 Springfield Range Officer M1911 in .45 ACP. 25 yard groups averaged 3.10 inches. From years of shooting both revolvers and semi's this is about par for the course for the average quality factory handgun. My.45 70 Series Goldcup worked over by Don Williams of the Action Works will do around 1.5" off a Ransom Rest with Remington Match Ammo.

I view those claiming 4" groups at 100 yards from any factory revolver or semi with more than a bit of skepticism.

NRA Endowment Life Member

Pete D.
June 12, 2011, 05:45 PM
Mr Canuck: That's not because of accuracy - it's the difficulty most people have in cocking a revolver to single action in the timed and rapid
I believe that I accommodated that idea in my previous note. In a practical sense, anything that renders a firearm hard to shoot under a given circumstance is a factor in determining the practical accuracy of the weapon.

And
Nonsense on the "much higher scores" - check the NRA record books for COnventional Pistol (Bullseye) - there are still records held by revolvers DESPITE cocking the hammer in rapid strings.

If you have that info, please forward it to me. I am open to correction. I did check the Conventional Pistol records. There is no information as to what type of firearm was used to set a particular record. There are a couple of records (Krelstein and Hilden and Hurst from the early to middle 1960's that may have been set with revolvers - Police and Civilian) All of the other records were pretty surely shot with Semis.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp
Partly, I based my comment on my own time in the sport and the fact that I have rarely seen a revolver at a match and never seen one used to win. I repeat what I said before....if revolvers were superior then the winners would be using them. They aren't and haven't been for a generation.
I stand by that observation. Remember that I am not saying that semis are more accurate than revolvers; I am saying that semis are easier to shoot accurately than revolvers are in competitions that place a premium on precision.
Pete

918v
June 12, 2011, 07:25 PM
They are about the same. Find a well made revolver, such as Freedom Arms, and it will shoot inside 2" at 50 yards. So will a well made 1911 or German target gun such as a X-5 or 210. David Sams Berettas shoot 1" 10 shot groups at 50 yards.

The other day I shot a .6" group at 100 yards from my Freedom Arms 22LR. I'm sure it's a fluke.

RickMD
June 12, 2011, 07:29 PM
The other day I shot a .6" group at 100 yards from my Freedom Arms 22LR. I'm sure it's a fluke.

Me too.

918v
June 12, 2011, 07:46 PM
What ammo? I used RWS Match Rifle.

DWFan
June 12, 2011, 07:50 PM
RickMD, the standard of accuracy for the Dan Wesson revolver was an inch to an inch and a half at 100 yards. This has been verified by numerous writers and in nearly every caliber. Todd Spotti's test of the M360 revolver with handloads resulted in eleven loads that went under 2" at 100 yards and four loads that were under one and one half inches. Not one load tested was over 2.2". John Taffin's test of an identical revolver produced similar results with a half dozen handloads that went under an inch, plus a factory load that produced a .875" group.
Even if the revolvers were specially selected for those writers to test, that still rivals rifle accuracy and is far beyond anything a semi-auto can do.

Pete D.
June 12, 2011, 09:52 PM
that still rivals rifle accuracy and is far beyond anything a semi-auto can do.
It sure does. A .875" group from a pistol at 100 yards. I am interested to know what cartridge that was and the particulars about the gun. It is better than any semi that I know of at 100 yards.
On the other hand, how about using it to shoot clean targets rapid fire at 25 yards (one hand, unsupported, two strings of five shots, each string fired in ten seconds)? Of course it can do that......how often does it happen? Happens multiple times any any championship match with a semi auto. It'll be happening multiple times this summer at Camp Perry.
So..what exactly do we mean when we say a gun is accurate? Is it what the gun will do from a Ransom rest (or any rest) when the human factor is virtually eliminated/minimized or is it what the gun will do in the hands of a human? Is it what the gun will allow me to do when holding it supported with two hands or when shooting with only one hand on the gun?
Pete

LTR shooter
June 12, 2011, 11:39 PM
I have little trouble accepting that a well made stock revolver is mechanically more accurate than a stock semi-auto.

If the semi autos were so darn accurate out of the box they would not need to be accurized to compete in NRA Bullseye. It seems clear you consider NRA Bullseye to be the final word in handgun accuracy yet how many there at Camp Perry this year will shoot out of the box Kimbers , Colts or Springfield Armory 1911s. My Springfield was worked on by Clark Custom before it could be used a bullseye gun.

Yeah I know , "How many shoot bullseye revolvers?" -the advantage of semi-auto in timed and rapid is obvious to anyone who shoots.

I could not shoot timed or rapid with an Olympic free pistol either , does that qualify it as inaccurate?

918v
June 13, 2011, 12:00 AM
I think people need to compare apples to apples. You can't compare pre-war or early post-war Colts and S&Ws to the crap offered today. Your typical S&W nowadays will not shoot 2" or better at 50 yards. Today, autos and revolvers both typically 2-3" groups at 25 yards with factory ammo. Yes, there may be exceptional examples, but on average they are equal.

Prosser
June 13, 2011, 01:19 AM
918V:

Sounds like a typical FA, with a trigger job:-)

Sold a 252 to a guy in the midwest. He said after finding the right ammo, it was shooting under a 1/4" at 50 yards. I sold it because the chambers were so darn tight, and, I needed the money.

My FA 83 .475 Custom by JRH ADV gunsmithing shoots cloverleafs at 50 yards, as does the .500JRH FA83 he converted.

John Linebaugh's conversions regularly shot 2-3" at 100 yards, if you can.

Custom tuned 1911's aren't exactly inaccurate, but, the cartridge starts letting folks down past 50 yards...

CraigC
June 13, 2011, 01:31 AM
I wouldn't keep a revolver that didn't do better than 2" - 3"@25yds. Except, of course, for those I don't expect to do better than that but they don't even have topstraps.

I expect a good S&W or Ruger to do 2"@50yds, an FA better halve that.

451 Detonics
June 13, 2011, 04:34 AM
Your typical S&W nowadays will not shoot 2" or better at 50 yards.

I disagree...my 625 out of a Ransom Rest will easily shoot into 1 1/2 inches at that distance. I suspect many other new S&W revolvers would do equally as well if you remove the human element from the equation. My P7M8 will do it as well. I try to group every gun I buy in the Ransom Rest...let's me know what the gun is capable of. Those I don't have inserts for I bench.

Magazine capacity is the biggest factor in many competitions today. Even when using full moon clips having to do 3-4 reloads in a revolver for every 1 reload in a semi auto is going to be slower. And with the exception of games like Bullseye, PPC, and Action Pistol the A zones on targets for many of these competitions are relatively huge. Those latter games also restrict courses of fire to much lower rounds counts as well. I shot my first 1920 in Action Pistol with a revolver.

Lastly cost is almost always going to play a role. I would expect a $1000 dollar gun to do better than a $500 dollar gun in most cases. For example I would expect a 686 to outshoot a Rossi and a Colt Gold Cup to best a Rock Island FS. Oddly enough some of the really inexpensive semi autos do quite well if they use a fixed barrel.

Pete D.
June 13, 2011, 05:26 AM
I could not shoot timed or rapid with an Olympic free pistol either , does that qualify it as inaccurate?
I see your point. I don't believe, though, that my point has been that revolvers are inaccurate. The point that I have been trying to make is that there are qualities of revolvers that make them more difficult to use than a semi-auto; it is not as easy to make full use of their potential. Sustained fire in a Bullseye match is one of those circumstances where it shows.
Related to that.....considering the Free Pistol and the limitations of other very accurate pistols. There have been a number of posts about absolutely marvelous accuracy from .22 revolvers.....tiny, rifle-like groups at 100 yards. Does anyone seriously think that one of those revolvers will outshoot a Free Pistol in a match at 50 meters, even though they shoot as well or maybe better from a bench at 100 yards? Might be a project worth trying.

As far as autos being easier to shoot accurately, that really depends on your situation. If you're shooting quickly and at shorter ranges, I would agree that mastering an auto, especially a single action auto, is "easier" than mastering a DA revolver. However, dollar for dollar and shot for shot, if precision is the name of the game then a good revolver has it all over an auto. Not many centerfire autos are capable of 2lb triggers and as stated above, a good revolver will be twice as accurate at any given range.....or better.

Can't disagree with that. The sweetest triggers - at least on CF guns - that I have used have been on revolvers. (those, though, required "accurizing" to get that way).
Pete
Pete

Prosser
June 13, 2011, 06:53 AM
Free pistols are governed by how good their barrels are. Same with pretty much any hyper-accurate gun. After that, it's how good the trigger is, and, how good are you with the gun?

When you spend 2500 for a Freedom Arms Match Grade Revolver, with trigger job, it's going to be premium stuff, and if it isn't, they stand behind their guns.

Wilson will also do something similar with some of their guns, and I think Ed Brown does as well.

It would seem to me to be easier to get a short rifle, or long barreled pistol to shoot well then a regular rifle. Barrel flex, and whip are minimized. Site radius doesn't matter with a scope.

Also it would seem that the shorter the barrel, the more chance the bullet has of getting out of the gun before it's affected by physics on the gun, action, etc.

Pete D.
June 13, 2011, 10:06 AM
Free pistols are really a step away from the revolver/semi-auto accuracy idea. Marvelous machines, though.
Free pistols are governed by how good their barrels are.
And how good their triggers are......hard to compete against a two ounce trigger.....and those wonderful sights, wraparound grips, superfast lock times.
Not good for much except match shooting; though, I suppose a person could hunt squirrels with one.
Pete

USSR
June 13, 2011, 11:48 AM
How do you guys manage to get Free Pistols - I always have to pay for mine.:D

Don

918v
June 13, 2011, 11:58 AM
I disagree...my 625 out of a Ransom Rest will easily shoot into 1 1/2 inches at that distance. I suspect many other new S&W revolvers would do equally as well if you remove the human element from the equation. My P7M8 will do it as well. I try to group every gun I buy in the Ransom Rest...let's me know what the gun is capable of. Those I don't have inserts for I bench.



Having owned three PC625's and a P7M8, I can safely say your ransom rest claims are untrue. As I said before, you may run into an exceptional example, but in general the accuracy just isn't there.

CraigC
June 13, 2011, 01:15 PM
Having owned three PC625's and a P7M8, I can safely say your ransom rest claims are untrue. As I said before, you may run into an exceptional example, but in general the accuracy just isn't there.
Maybe the problem ain't your guns?

451 Detonics
June 13, 2011, 04:12 PM
Having owned three PC625's and a P7M8, I can safely say your ransom rest claims are untrue. As I said before, you may run into an exceptional example, but in general the accuracy just isn't there.

You've tested them in a properly mounted (ie lag bolted to a concrete piller) Ransom Rest?

SharpsDressedMan
June 13, 2011, 08:50 PM
You guys are right. Here is my Ruger Security Six (about $450 in almost new condition) at 25 yards with magnum loads. I have some autos that will shoot as well, but they were about double the cost. For accuracy and economy, the revolver is hard to beat (in the right gun). http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05793.jpg

918v
June 13, 2011, 09:58 PM
You've tested them in a properly mounted (ie lag bolted to a concrete piller) Ransom Rest?


I tested them off the same benchrest I use to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards using scoped FA revolvers. I don't need a ransom rest to know a P7 can't shoot what you claim.

Prosser
June 14, 2011, 03:49 AM
918v knows where of he speaks:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/252%20Freedom%20Arms/252fullsizedleft.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/252%20Freedom%20Arms/2523YES-1.jpg
I hate to embarass the gun, but, I'm getting old,,,...:mad:
that's 10 shots, at 25 yards, off the bench, not a rest.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/252%20Freedom%20Arms/FA8310shots15yardscopy.jpg
I had Jack Huntington tune the trigger, around 1.5 pounds, and, out of a rest,
it shoots .25", at 50 yards, for it's new owner. For the record, one chamber was too tight, and, might require pounding the empty out, with the rod...
Also, many rounds would have to be tapped into that number 5 chamber.
Pain for a fun gun for me.

RugerMcMarlin
June 14, 2011, 04:02 AM
What your guns do off a ransom rest is impressive,but I'm the lazy sort before long I'm gonna get tired of lugging it around and just start carrying my gun by itself.

Got_Lead?
June 14, 2011, 11:52 PM
I think it's a fair assessment (did I spell that correctly?) that a good revolver will shoot as well as a tight automatic. And that's the key, good revolver with resonable throat / bore dimensions and alignment, and an automatic that locks up tightly. All of which are very commonplace in today's modern guns, from Glocks to S&W's.

On the other hand, if they are loosy goosy, chances are that the gun won't be accurate.

My Hi-Power and repro Luger both shoot 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 25 yards as do my Security-Sixes, and Blackhawks. I have a Smith 25-5 in 45 Colt that won't shoot worth a darn. It does better with unsized boolits at .454 or so, and I finally figured out why, the cylinder throats measure .457, and the bore is .452, no wonder it didn't like .451's.

I also have a Star B Super, that must have had a million rounds fired through it, I even had to weld up the barrel bushing OD it was so loose, the rifling's OK, but she's still pretty loose. I can get a 3" to 4" group out of her, but that's as good as I can get her to shoot presently.

Anyway, I think it all boils down to how well the machinery fits.


Here's a couple of examples from revolver vs auto (that's a hand fitted Smith M-52 vs a Ruger Security-Six. Both guns fire these sized groups consistently)

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/1homebrewed/PICT0023a.jpg

CraigC
June 15, 2011, 08:30 AM
I'd love to see a service auto that shoots 1" to 2" at 25yds.

zfk55
June 15, 2011, 09:58 AM
How many semi-autos can do 230 yards? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=qfbhg22WCWs

9mmepiphany
June 15, 2011, 03:50 PM
I'd love to see a service auto that shoots 1" to 2" at 25yds.
I'd be pretty concerned if mine wouldn't as the minimum I'd expect at 50 yards would be 4"... and much closer to 2" from a solid position.

I haven't shot every service auto on the market, but I know that the ones I normally use will hold inside 2" at 25 yards...Sig 226, Sig 220, Kahr CW9, Springfield EMP

Magnumite
June 15, 2011, 04:29 PM
Pistol silhouette shooters typically use the most accurate gun since the sport format puts a premium on accuracy over rate of fire, capacity or speed. You'll see many revolvers in centerfire catagories and little, if any, autos. I've never seen anyone attempt to use a service grade or sportsman grade semi auto more than once. They aren't competitive in the accuracy nor sight qualities. Rimfire catagories you'll see both. Both are overshadowed by the single shots in open events.

Prosser
June 15, 2011, 04:45 PM
CraigC:

I'd love to be able to shoot that well, again.:cuss:


P210's, X-225's, custom 1911's, Detonics, all have shot very well for me. Even a Glock 34...

Still none anywhere near a custom revolver, with loads made for the gun.

Prosser
June 15, 2011, 05:06 PM
Does Freedom Arms still pretty much own silhouette shooting, still?

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