Update on the .50 GI 1911...


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Sean Smith
January 16, 2004, 03:52 PM
http://www.classichandguns.com/50GIpage.html

http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/

The .50 caliber 1911 is apparently no myth. :evil:

Model 1 Specs:
Proprietary Barstock Frame and Slide
Original 1911 Size
Match Grade Heavy Barrel
Heavy Duty Stainless 7rd. Magazine
Heinie Slant Pro Tritium Sights
20lpi Carry Checkering on Frontsrap
20lpi Checkered MSH w/ Integral Lanyard Loop
Tactical Single Side Thumb Safety
Lightweight Trigger, tuned to 4#
Beveled Mag Well
Olive Drab Aluma-Grips
Parkerized Finish
Cordura Carrying Case

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Sean Smith
January 16, 2004, 03:54 PM
One FAT cartridge... no ballistics published yet.

Note that it has a rebated rim, so the breechface dimensions would be the same as a .45 ACP. So you should be able to convert the .50 GI to .45 ACP with just a barrel and magazine swap, which is why I'm guessing they designed the cartridge that way (although that is purely speculation on my part).

Note too that the gun is the same size as a standard 1911... not a stretched frame like the LAR Grizzly and AMT Automag V pseudo-1911s in a .50 caliber.

Rupestris
January 16, 2004, 04:09 PM
Well. Looks like I can no longer call my 1911 "Ol' Big Mouth" :p

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
January 16, 2004, 04:31 PM
I wonder when Bar-Sto, et al is going to start cranking out replacement barrels in .50GI?

Sounds very interesting. I suppose the velocity will probably be in the 950fps range. I love bigger holes.

Regards,
Rabbit.

whitebear
January 16, 2004, 04:32 PM
If I recall correctly, this big mouth will be illegal to carry concealed in Oklahoma - we have a restriction against carrying anything over .45 concealed.

Bummer.

Harold Mayo
January 16, 2004, 04:38 PM
Hah! I just posted on this over at the 1911forum! Everyone interested please note the principles involved...Vic Tibbets and Alex Zimmerman. It's hard to find two more capable guys teamed up in regard to 1911's. This should be interesting.

Correia
January 16, 2004, 04:42 PM
Dang. That is actually pretty cool. :)

Grayrider
January 16, 2004, 04:44 PM
Sean you are an evil man. Just when I thought 10mm was enough. Now I want one of these. Wonder what they will cost? Wonder what the ammo costs? Wonder if that will stop me....

:evil:

GR

BHPshooter
January 16, 2004, 04:58 PM
That is one big mother. I'm guessing at this point that the .50 GI is a handloader-only cartridge, or at least very hard to get in a factory loading?

That looks so cool. :D

Wes

Sean Smith
January 16, 2004, 05:01 PM
That is one big mother. I'm guessing at this point that the .50 GI is a handloader-only cartridge, or at least very hard to get in a factory loading?

Considering you can't get the GUN yet, I'd say so. :D

The really smart thing for them to do would be to sell it with a .45 ACP conversion kit (probably just barrel and mags). THAT would be a hell of a package.

Navy joe
January 16, 2004, 05:02 PM
Can you shoot it in CDP for the express purpose of baking Bill W's noodle? :evil:

Sean Smith
January 16, 2004, 05:02 PM
Nope, it has a bull barrel. I'm guessing they had to, otherwise the barrel would be all hole. :eek:

otomik
January 16, 2004, 06:01 PM
.50 GI ballistics info please

BigG
January 16, 2004, 06:11 PM
:what:

I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with a moderate caliber for now - 45 ACP. :what:

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 06:27 PM
50 GI ballistics info please

I'd guess that it wouldn't have a problem makin' major.:what:
Talk about knockin' a ballistic pendulum bonkers.:cool:

Lemme see...I'll guess that with the liklihood of a 325- grain pill,
and the amount of space in such a short case...800 fps from a
5-inch barrel...no more than 850. Let's see how close I get when
the specs are published.

Guesses anybody?

Just my 2% of a buck...It'll probably be another fad that doesn't go very
far past the first year. Ammo will be hard to find and HIGH dollar, and the
good ol' .45 ACP will still reign.

Cheers!
Tuner

natedog
January 16, 2004, 07:22 PM
If a .45 can knock a man down and blow both his arms off with a shot to the pinky and sink battleships, imagine what this cartridge will do! I mean, the .45 has so much recoil that if you shoot it one handed, it will rip your arm off and impale the person behind you! I can't stand the thought of .05 more inches!

bigjim
January 16, 2004, 07:38 PM
Make fun all you want but its a much better idea than that dumbass .45 GAP.

I would buy one.

Harold Mayo
January 16, 2004, 07:45 PM
Neat concept but I don't think that it will catch on. I could, of course, be wrong.

To start second guessing two experienced 1911 mechanics and their business before it really even starts...:D

I'd love to see another company, like this one, come out with a line of semi-custom pistols to compete against the overpriced (IMHO) Wilsons and against the Baers (more reasonably priced). Kimber seems to be going down in quality, in my experience, as is Springfield Armory. Customer service isn't an issue, either, with these latter two, as both will fix whatever is wrong...the issue is that you buy a new gun and then have to send it off to the factory for a while to get it to work right.

Anyway, I hope that this company takes off and goes well. I don't, personally, see anything in the .50 GI that would really make it clearly a better choice than any other handgun caliber but, if 0.045" difference between a 9mm and a .40 makes such a difference and .05" between a .40 and .45 ACP makes such a difference as what people would like to believe, then the .05" difference between the .45 ACP and the .50 GI should really thrill people...:D

Hah! Idea for a new and useless thread....!!!:evil:

Brigrat
January 16, 2004, 08:09 PM
competition for the 500S&W. I'll bet it will sell if it's available in enough places.

MaterDei
January 16, 2004, 08:27 PM
I'm hoping 1911Tuner or other experts will weigh in with his opinion of a 1911 style frame handling the increased stress of this cartridge.

agtman
January 16, 2004, 08:27 PM
Thanks for the heads-up ...

... but then I saw:

"...The Model 1 [in 50GI] has been designed to be a Tactically sound defensive pistol with great controllability and power."

- which is what's been claimed for every new pistol/cartridge combination since the Bren Ten. Colt said pretty much the same thing when the first Delta Elite ads ran. (I looked closely for that shop-worn phrase, "... a true magnum autoloader," but thankfully the writer avoided it).

Still, a stubby but 1911-friendly 50cal cartridge does offer up an interesting ballistic concept ...

... but the question is: will it ever be anything other than a weekend hobby cartridge (like the 38 Casull, 450SMC, 45 Super 40 Super, etc.)? :scrutiny:

George Hill
January 16, 2004, 09:00 PM
"That's no moon..." / Ben
"I've got a bad feeling about this." / Han

BigG
January 16, 2004, 09:08 PM
There's an ad for it in the new SGN. Looks pretty nice. As Mao said, "Let 100 flowers blossom."

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 09:09 PM
T'was asked:

I'm hoping 1911Tuner or other experts will weigh in with his opinion of a 1911 style frame handling the increased stress of this cartridge.

Rule 1. Whenever something is changed, it affects everything else.
No such thing as a free lunch. The added recoil impulse will demand a higher recoil spring rate to prevent destroying the frame and slide.

Higher recoil springs mean extra stresses on the slidestop pin, lower lug,
and slidestop pin hole. The need for a heavier firing pin rebound spring
may be apparent. A heavier firing pin spring may require a heavier mainspring...A heavier mainspring will increase wear on the hammer hooks and sear...a little, and so on and so on.

Any time impact stresses are increased, things get battered faster. Things
wear out sooner. Things break. If the pistol is beefed up in critical areas,
the weight will increase, and the point will be lost due to the 3-pound
pistol on your hip. Forget alloy frames in this weapon.

I have to go with the "Weekend Hobby Gun" concept as mentioned by agtman. It will sell to some who want to be the first kid on the block with
a .50 caliber 1911...but I don't believe that it will ever sell in great numbers or last very long. In that light, there may be some real collector value 20
years down the road, and a viable investment, but not as a practical
sidearm, except for very specialized arenas...and those arenas have
already been filled by the .41 and .44 magnum...the .454 Casull and
.480 Ruger do even better...and the .500 Smith and Wesson better still.
Anybody who remembers the .45 Winchester Magnum can remember
just how quickly it faded into obscurity, as did the pistol that chambered it.

As with anything that is manufactured, it is presumably made for a purpose. Ask yourself: "What's it FOR?" What can it do that can't
already be done by something that has been there for years?

Just my nickel's worth..(Inflation)

Tuner

TarpleyG
January 16, 2004, 09:20 PM
Where do I sign up???

GT

Andrew Wyatt
January 16, 2004, 09:21 PM
I have no idea what it's for, but i'm getting one and it's going on my CCW permit.

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 09:25 PM
Andrew said:

I have no idea what it's for, but i'm getting one and it's going on my CCW permit.

ATTA BOY! That's what makes America great. We can buy it because we
WANT it! I bought a .460 Weatherby several years ago. I didn't have
a use for it then, and I don't now. I bought it "just because".:cool:

voilsb
January 16, 2004, 09:38 PM
It looks nice ... I still wonder how it's gonna look ballistically, though.

BigG
January 16, 2004, 09:44 PM
Tuner said: Anybody who remembers the .45 Winchester Magnum can remember just how quickly it faded into obscurity, as did the pistol that chambered it.

I don't know if the LAR Grizzly was the first to chamber that round but I will tell you as a B-I-G fan of Mr. Browning's finest pistole design:D that the Grizzly is a heckuva fine piece of work. Tuner, if I come up to see you, I'll bring mine so's you can examine it (even though it is only a puny .44 Magnum model). :evil: :cool:

{Tuner} ... bought a .460 Weatherby just because! You're my kind of guy Tuner! I'm a guy who bought a couple of .458s just because. I have about as much need for a safari rifle as a pig does a sunday suit of clothes, but that didn't stop me! :neener:

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 09:45 PM
voilsb said:

It looks nice ... I still wonder how it's gonna look ballistically, though.

Like the ballistics that worked for centuries prior to the advent of smokelss
powders and small-bore rifles. "Heavy ball, low velocity." Quite effective,
actually...Eh? Wot? The old Brown Bess in .75 and later .69 caliber...
it'd knock ya clean outta yer shoes...but DAYUMM that was a heavy sucker.

Cheer-O!

Sir Tuner

Badger Arms
January 16, 2004, 09:45 PM
One small observation. How do you fit a 50GI into a 1911 frame? You can't. They say it's the same size gun, but the frame and slide must be proprietary. I can't figure any way that you can fit the rounds in the magazine. Any reality check here?

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 09:49 PM
Badger Arms said:

One small observation. How do you fit a 50GI into a 1911 frame? You can't.

Think...Double-stack frames and slightly wider slides...Cosmetics that can be easily concealed with a thicker frame rail area. Beefy man...Beefy!

It can be done...but at what cost?

bigjim
January 16, 2004, 10:18 PM
Tuner????? Cost????? Does it matter? Does it really matter?

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 10:28 PM
bigjim said/asked:

Tuner????? Cost????? Does it matter? Does it really matter?

Hellno! If it makes ya happy, WHY NOT? LMAO:D Hell, I want a
Ferrari Testarosa and a farm in Tennessee! Gonna have it one day too...
Well, the farm anyway.:cool:

HD
January 16, 2004, 10:31 PM
i think it is possible that IF the velocity is kept reasonable that the stress will really be no worse than 45acp+p ammo is already... if you figure a 775-780 fps loading , there should be no problems in a properly made pistol...
ol' john must be laughing himself sick over this one ...

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 10:39 PM
ol' john must be laughing himself sick over this one

Browning or Travis?:p

1911Tuner
January 16, 2004, 10:41 PM
HD said:

i think it is possible that IF the velocity is kept reasonable that the stress will really be no worse than 45acp+p ammo is already

Yeah, but you just know some fool with a loadin' press and a pound of
Unique is gonna try to make a .50 Super as soon as he gets it broke in.
I know I would have about 30 years ago...:D

HD
January 16, 2004, 10:47 PM
Browning or Travis?
:p


both!
as for hotrodding it , well hey , we both know how damm fools can mess up anything ...

Marko Kloos
January 16, 2004, 11:17 PM
Hey, bigger holes are better holes.

Looking at my 1911, there's just no way that a round the size of a .50 can fit into that magazine well. It's maxed out with the .45ACP. The magazine well would have to be a tad wider for sure.

Interesting concept. If the ammo was available, and priced at less than $1 per round, it might even take off to some degree.

longtom4570
January 16, 2004, 11:58 PM
I know make it belt fed and you don't have to worry about the round fitting in the mag well:evil:

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 12:05 AM
Lemme see now...A Belt-fed, Browning designed .50 caliber...:scrutiny:
It's deja vous all over again!

Brings to mind the .223 SAW...A belt-fed varmint rifle for those
gopher wave attacks.:neener:

Tuner<------stands by for an arc light strike with napalm for dessert.:D

dsk
January 17, 2004, 12:11 AM
It appears to have a normal-width slide and frame. With that in mind the frame must be thinner to accomodate the fatter round. Also with that in mind, a thinner frame and increased stress on the pistol means a much lower life expectancy of the weapon. BTW we've also seen rebated rim cartridges before, such as the now-defunct .41 Action Express. The design plays havoc with reliability.

It looks cool, but like what's been already said it's just a hobbyist's gun. Serious folks will stick with a .45ACP or 10mm 1911.

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 12:16 AM
dsk said:

It appears to have a normal-width slide and frame.

Sorta lends new meaning to the term "Break" it in...don't it?
Can anybody say...snap, crackle, pop?

WonderNine
January 17, 2004, 01:31 AM
I'm in as long as we've got at least 300gr. bullets doing at least 950fps...

I've liked this idea from the get go.

esheato
January 17, 2004, 02:54 AM
Am I the only one that isn't impressed? I like my .45s and they do everything that I need them to.

I think it's a novel idea, but that's where it ends.

I think availability of brass and the general cost of the ammunition would be prohibitive to practicing with it. And on top of that, I really don't want to carry 8 rounds of 250-300 grain bullets all day long.

esheato...

Phantom Warrior
January 17, 2004, 03:22 AM
Two questions:

A. Any idea how much this will sell for when it is available?
B. Does anyone make a normal .45 that looks similar to this?

I like the look and wouldn't mind getting a normal .45 that looks like this. Thanks in advance.

WonderNine
January 17, 2004, 04:30 AM
Am I the only one that isn't impressed? I like my .45s and they do everything that I need them to.

I think it's a novel idea, but that's where it ends.

I'm looking at this on the standpoint that they can perhaps up the power a bit on big bore non magnums. The old .45ACP is loaded very anemically for its 23mm case in this day and age. I know it has to be because of old pistols and the millions already out there for the .45ACP cartridge, but I'd really like to see someone "modernize" larger bore pistols.

Alan Fud
January 17, 2004, 05:40 AM
Bigger is not always better ... at least that is what the .357SIG owners tell me when they see me shooting any of my .40S&W caliber guns :rolleyes:

Have there been any gelatin tests performed to see how the damage done by the .50GI compares to either the .45ACP or the 10mm?

BluesBear
January 17, 2004, 07:32 AM
Unless you're going to use stripper clips and load it like a Broomhandle Mauser, no .50cal cartridge will fit in a single stack 1911 pattern frame.
Therefor there won't be any conversion units available.

Unless you substantially beef up the pistol the .50cal cartridge would have to remain in the .45acp pressure range. That would mean the velocities would remain in the .45 range or slightly lower.

Would it be able to anything the .45acp can't do except for punch a .05" larger hole? :confused:

esheato
January 17, 2004, 08:00 AM
Would it be able to anything the .45acp can't do except for punch a .05" larger hole?

My point exactly. Would it be able to do anything? Yeah, drain your wallet for the conversion kit or the price of a whole new gun.

I just can't get into this gun. You can't reload for it yet, bullet selection is slim unless you're casting for it. Dies? Brass? A lot of questions are as of yet unanswered.

I'm looking at this on the standpoint that they can perhaps up the power a bit on big bore non magnums. The old .45ACP is loaded very anemically for its 23mm case in this day and age. I know it has to be because of old pistols and the millions already out there for the .45ACP cartridge, but I'd really like to see someone "modernize" larger bore pistols.

A couple questions come forth. How much power do you want? Where is the line drawn between a non-magnum versus magnum? I'm shooting a .45 Colt that pushes a 300 grn bullet at approx 1000 fps. It's not abusive, but it's not really conducive to fast and accurate shooting as with a .40 or .45. Up the power on big bore non magnums? Reload for it and you can load .45 ACP as hot as you want. I won't stand behind you when you shoot them though.

Anemic? Yes, it is. Manufacturers have to load for the weakest link, but there are plenty of other options. Cor-Bon comes to mind.

As far as modernizing large bore pistols, the only thing I can come up with is the DE. It's a miserable gun to shoot though. Large, clunky and heavy.

There are plenty of large new revolver cartridges. Heck, there's even a thread on here about a snubby .500 S&W. Don't forget about the .480 Ruger or the .454 Casull. There's plenty of power if you need it...just a different platform...

Maybe what I'm trying to understand is what role this pistol would fill? CCW? Handgun hunting? Perhaps I'm not seeing the big picture when I have proven and trusted .45 ACPs.

It just seems like a lot of hassle for .05 increase in bore diameter.

esheato...

WonderNine
January 17, 2004, 08:18 AM
A couple questions come forth. How much power do you want? Where is the line drawn between a non-magnum versus magnum? I'm shooting a .45 Colt that pushes a 300 grn bullet at approx 1000 fps. It's not abusive, but it's not really conducive to fast and accurate shooting as with a .40 or .45. Up the power on big bore non magnums? Reload for it and you can load .45 ACP as hot as you want. I won't stand behind you when you shoot them though.

Anemic? Yes, it is. Manufacturers have to load for the weakest link, but there are plenty of other options. Cor-Bon comes to mind.

As far as modernizing large bore pistols, the only thing I can come up with is the DE. It's a miserable gun to shoot though. Large, clunky and heavy.

Even the +P .45 loads from Cor-bon and Winchester ect. seem weak to me for a big bore. I mean we're talking a minimal gain in energy over a 9 and usually less than a hot .40. If I go to larger bore I also want more power not just "a bigger hole", if the large diameter bullet even manages to penetrate through and through....more power goood....

I'd like to stay subsonic and still retain an advantage over calibers like .40, this is why I was thinking 300gr. or around that range. Seems to me a 300gr. bullet @ 1000-1050 out of a standard 1911 would be very hard on the gun and downright dangerous even, this is why I talk about modernizing them to be able to handle it without having to shoot a DE/Grizzly sized gun. They did it with smaller calibers, what seems to be the roadblock with creating a higher pressure .45 on up in a normal sized gun??? It seems to me the roadblock is that .45ACP is already popular just as it is, so there's no incentive to do so.

I thought according to the early posts in this thread that the .50 would fit in a standard 1911 frame, but according to you guys this is not the case. But really, how much larger would it HAVE to be? Not that much I would guess.

Tamara
January 17, 2004, 08:21 AM
Would it be able to anything the .45acp can't do except for punch a .05" larger hole?

How come when a person who totes a .40 asks that same question of a .45 ACP fan it results in a lot of harrumphing? When does .05" more stop being good? Is it somewhere between .355" and .401"? Between .401" and .451"? Or between .451" and .500"?

I thought the only reason cowboys carried .45's is because they didn't make a .46? :confused:

;) :D

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 08:52 AM
esheato asked:

Am I the only one that isn't impressed?

Nope. I'm of the mindset that it'll be all the rage for about a year and
fall outta grace...and for many of the same reasons that you mentioned.

But then, on the other hand, to parapharase Mae West...
"Darlin'! Too much of a good thing is...mmmarvelous!"

BluesBear
January 17, 2004, 08:59 AM
in size. A .40/10mm in a 1911 size frame has a higher working pressure due to the increases steel surrounding it.
Same goes for a .38super/9mm.

Since you can load the smaller calibers to a higher working pressure you can raise the power level.

Just as you can load a .44 magnum hotter in a S&W n-frame than you can .45Colt in the same frame size because of the difference in cylinder walls.

If you put a .50cal cartridge in something with the same external dimensions as a standard 1911 you'll have less steel to contain the pressure.

If, however, you slightly beefed it up, so it will handle higher pressures, yet retained the same ergonomics as the 1911, THEN you'd have an argument for the benefits of the .50 over the .45.

Tamara
January 17, 2004, 09:04 AM
I think all the people rushing valiantly to defend their beloved .45 ACP can relax. Anybody who can read knows this is intended as a niche cartridge, and there's not a thing wrong with that. .44 Magnum still sells just fine, despite .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, and .500 S&W. Matter of fact, it outsells all three. Why? Because it does the job just fine. Some folks just want something new, or different, or bigger, or louder, or whatever, and good for them, I say! (Besides, it helps keep me in business... :D ) Matter of fact, I'm feeling a mite different myself; I think I'll tote my .38 Super today. :)


(PS: My prognostication for this thread? Here you go: I'll wager that .480 Ruger is dead as a doornail in five years... ;) )

Tamara
January 17, 2004, 09:09 AM
If you put a .50cal cartridge in something with the same external dimensions as a standard 1911 you'll have less steel to contain the pressure.

Yes, but .45 ACP already operates at such low pressures, what's wrong with another low-pressure golf-ball-mortar of a cartridge, just lobbing slightly bigger golfballs? I think this came up at TFL in a thread about a hypothetical ".50 ACP", but I'm too lazy to go search...

WonderNine
January 17, 2004, 09:13 AM
Yes, that's all I'm saying! Slightly beef it up if necessary, but there's no reason it has to be DE sized if it's not shooting 325gr. .50AE @ 1,500fpe LoL! We're talking maybe HALF that kind of energy here at the top end.

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 10:43 AM
Tamara said:
PS: My prognostication for this thread? Here you go: I'll wager that .480 Ruger is dead as a doornail in five years...

Yep...and the .500 S&W likely won't be the hot topic more than two or three.

I'm a proponent of the heavy bullet/moderate velocity mindset. Low
pressures equate to longer service life of the gun and your wrists.
Increasing the bullet weight and velocity have a price in that it's
harder on the platform and the shooter. If you need more power, you need more bullet rather than more velocity...YMMV

Going to a 300-325 grain bullet even at 800 fps works in opposition to
the very thing thing that has made the .45ACP hang on for a century...
A balance of power and control in a portable sidearm. Shift the balance
in one direction or the other and you've negated the advantage.

Any increase in performance gained by a 300 grain bullet at 800 f/s would
be about as much difference as between the .40 and the .45ACp...definitely
a factor, albeit a slight one. Bump it up to 325/900 and you're on a fine
line between being able to control it and not. In a defensive sidearm, you
need to be able to bring the gun down out of recoil quickly more than you
need big booms and 45 degree recoil arcs. How many serious pistoleers can you find who carries a Model 29 stoked with full-power ammo?
Very few, and most of those could be stunt doubles for Hulk Hogan.
You need comfort and portability rather than a 4 or 5-pound handgun that
you could use to brain a Brahma Bull. You need affordable ammo so that
you can use the gun enough to use it well.

Finally....you need ammunition availability. .45 and 9mm is in every
sporting goods shop and rural hardware store in the country. .38 Special
and .357 Magnum...40 S&W and, to a slightly lesser degree, 10mm. How
many Ma and Pa operations in rural Montana or Wyoming will carry an
expensive proprietary round for one chance in a thousand that somebody will need a box of it?

Just a nickel's worth from an ever practical standpoint.
Tuner

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 01:22 PM
If, however, you slightly beefed it up, so it will handle higher pressures, yet retained the same ergonomics as the 1911, THEN you'd have an argument for the benefits of the .50 over the .45.

Well, if you read the specs on the gun you'd know that it has a proprietary frame and slide. So they've probably done exactly what you decribed. Likewise, they used a bushngless bull barrel, presumably so they could have more steel to play with to make it physically stronger.

Here is a 10mm bull barrel, note how much thicker the barrel walls are than a conventional bushing barrel in a 1911. Even opened up 0.1", you'd have plenty of steel to handle .45 ACP-ish pressures, if not more. With a proprietary slide you could probably increase the outside diameter of the chamber to get more steel to play with there, too.

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/igc_76543/muzzle2.jpg

Just speculating, but it appears that some actual thought was put into the thing.

I have no personal interest in this, aside from the, "hey, look at this neat thing!" factor. I'm sure it will be a novelty cartridge, and doubt I'll even consider buying one. But on the flipside, it seems some folks are assuming the guys behind the idea are total morons before anyone has laid hands on the thing. Maybe a bit premature? ;)

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 01:48 PM
http://www.classichandguns.com/50GIpage.html

Looks like Vic Tibbets has his hands in it up to the elbow, so it will
be a well thought out, quality pistol. Now all we need to know about is
ammunition cost and availability...That could be the fly in the ointment
if you have to give 2 bucks a round...if you can find it.

Looks good so far...We shall see, I suppose.
:scrutiny:

BHPshooter
January 17, 2004, 02:28 PM
Did it say what the capacity is? I didn't see that in there anywhere.

I'd guess it's probably 6 or 7 shots in the magazine. What do you all think?

Wes

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 02:31 PM
T'was asked:

Did it say what the capacity is? I didn't see that in there anywhere.

Seven...Probably uses a modified follower and spring to allow for the extra
.350 inch. Gonna be a tight fit on the sides though...

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 02:46 PM
Hey Tuner,

Did you miss my link to that exact web site on the 1st page of this topic? :D

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 02:48 PM
Sean asked:

Did you miss my link to that exact web site on the 1st page of this topic?

Yep...Ain't gettin' old a pisser though?:rolleyes: :D

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 02:50 PM
Hell, I'm closing in on 31 and can't remember anything. :D

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 02:57 PM
Hell, I'm closing in on 31 and can't remember anything.

Just wait. It gets worse...:banghead: :cuss: I hafta ask Kelie what day it
is about 3 times a week.:D

La Pistoletta
January 17, 2004, 02:58 PM
.50GI vs. .50AE??

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 03:00 PM
50GI vs. .50AE??

.44 Special vs .44 magnum...or thereabouts.

BluesBear
January 17, 2004, 03:18 PM
I have not been trying to bash the .50GI, just trying to be logical about it.

You will NOT be able to use .50GI in a standard 1911 pattern .45acp magazine. It just won't fit unless you get some of that classified Area 51 "aluminum foil" to make the mag bodies.

In my opinion, what the selling point of this newly designed (redesigned?) pistol will be is that;

1) It will be just ever so slightly beefier than a standard 1911 so it will be useable in existing holsters.

2) Most or all of the internal parts will interchange so you can Burger King it.

3) Since the .50GI has a rebated rim you will be able to buy a .45acp conversion kit to use on your .50GI. Probably with a metal magazine for .50GI and a metal lined plastic mag for .45.

4) Being slightly beefier there could even be a conversion kit for one of the hot rodded .45s. (.45 Super, .460 Rowland etc.)

Will it sell? Sure it will. The mere mention of .50 excites many people.
Will it last? I think it's got a better chance than the .45 GAP.

Who knows, if Kimber makes one it's possible the Tacoma PD might even adopt it.

doublebarrel
January 17, 2004, 04:25 PM
Thanks to cas6969 at Ruger forum(over there, I'm DB2 :cool: )...

http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005014.html


(info provided by on online buddy who contacted them)
The 50 GI is a proprietary Guncrafter Industries cartridge and was developed from the ground up specifically for our Model No. 1 pistol.
It is a very strong, thick-walled cartridge, which when loaded is approximately the same OAL as a 45 ACP round.
Due to the large caliber, the cartridge operates at relatively low pressures and has a long reloading life.
The concept was to create a practical .50 caliber 1911 without unnecessary bulk or weight, but with increased knock-down power.
Factory loads for the 50 GI typically drives a 300 grain bullet at 700 -725 fps, which translates into a 210 power factor.
This is achieved without loss of controllability - firing this load feels comparable to shooting a std. 230 hard ball factory round.
However, the 50 GI is a very versatile cartridge and can be loaded to higher or lower levels, as desired.
Factory loaded ammunition, brass and reloading dies are available through Guncrafter Industries.

The retail price of the Model No. 1 is $2895.00.

Extra magazines are $44.95.
50 GI factory loaded is $14.25/box of 20.

GI manufactures a conversion kit for the Model No. 1, which enables the user to shoot .45 ACP ammunition in the Model No. 1.
The conversion unit retails at $365.00, includes 8 rd. magazine."


$3K???? UHHH...... Never mind.

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 05:34 PM
The retail price of the Model No. 1 is $2895.00.

Extra magazines are $44.95.
50 GI factory loaded is $14.25/box of 20.

Well now, lemme see...I guess I'll run out and spend nearly 3 grand
for a pistol that takes 75 cents per round ammo, in magazines that cost triple what I give for Metalforms so I can duplicate the .45 ACP power
factor...and maybe bump it up a little by handloading on a die set that
probably costs 75 bucks a set with bullets that cost 40 cents a pop...Yep. That's for me!:rolleyes:

Sounds like one of those things that I alwyas needed, but never realized it
'til just now...kinda like the .32 Magnum revolver.

Pass...I'll stick with the ol' .45

Cheers!

Tuner

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 05:43 PM
Is there any reason to think that info is credible ?

If so, I'd agree that a $3,000 gun in a wildcat caliber is pretty much a waste of everyone's time. I do find it hard to believe that anybody would be insane enough to make a $3,000 handgun their initial business venture, though, unless it is just a testbed for a more affordable gun later.

Looking at the ballistics... 300gr @ 725 ft/sec works out to 350 ft-lbs, or about the same as GI hardball, and a Power Factor of 218. By way of contrast, factory 10mm ammo will actually deliver up to DOUBLE the muzzle energy of .50 GI. Of course, the .50 GI has .1", but the 10mm can easily expand to 0.70" (and do it reliably due to its high velocity), whereas you'll be hard pressed to find a .50 pistol bullet that was designed to expand at the extremely low velocities .50 GI is operating at. Bullets made for loading .50 AE, for instance, are expected to expand at 1,300+ ft/sec.

Double Naught Spy
January 17, 2004, 07:09 PM
At 725 fps, what's the point? Sure, the round is just a tad larger than .45 acp rounds, but traveling slower. The .45 acp is already described as slow and heavy and so this would be really slow and heavier. I am not sure that makes it a better caliber for defensive purposes. Penetration is going to be compromised, I would guess, and stopping performance not necessarily better and not so much better to warrant the cost difference. Compared to the .50 AE, the .50 GI is anemic.

Cute gun, nifty idea, too bad about being performance challenged.

Andrew Wyatt
January 17, 2004, 07:18 PM
It doesn't seem to do anything the .45 ACP does with 300 hardcast lead bullets.


perhaps it can be loaded hotter. I wouldn't mind a .50 300 grain going 850 or so.

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 07:37 PM
Andrew said:

It doesn't seem to do anything the .45 ACP does with 300 hardcast lead bullets.

Now yer speakin' MY lingo. I cast and shoot the 255 grain semi-wadcutter
in my 1911s some...(They actually fall out of the molds at 260 grains.)
6 grains of Unique and that bullet make for a real thumper on the steel plates, and penetrate 8 inches deeper into gelatin than the hardball 230
at 850 fps. Velocity is just a tick under 800, and the gun doesn't seem to
mind a limited amount one bit. They feed, and there is NO short-cycle issue
whatsoever.

The 250-grain Speer swaged SWC bullet is a good substitute for those
who don't cast or need to buy 500 commercial bullets.

Cheers!
Tuner

Marcus
January 17, 2004, 08:36 PM
Disappointing. :rolleyes: 725fps??? Gad zooks,you could almost watch the bullet in the air. A 250gr./850fps combo would be pretty cool but not in a $2800 gun...... Marcus

1911Tuner
January 17, 2004, 08:42 PM
Marcus said:

Gad zooks,you could almost watch the bullet in the air.

Not almost...Can! Get the sun at your back just over your shoulder. Shoot
some Hornady XTP HPs. You'll swear it's a tracer. Under the right light, I've tracked full-bore .357 Magnum rounds all the way to a 100-yard target. Light just perfect, and you can catch a glimpse of a 165-grain bullet out of a .308 rifle. Neat stuff!

Tuner

grendelbane
January 18, 2004, 01:23 AM
Yes indeed! The first time I ever saw bullets in flight, it was a W-W Silvertip .45 ACP. Yes, the Sun was behind us. Almost 4 decades later, and I still remember it.
The idea of a .50 is cute, and it was bound to be tried sooner or later.

It may not be a good idea, (other than from a marketing viewpoint), but it is far from the worst idea I have ever heard.

I have a Grizzly Mk1.:)

I also realize the primary problem in higher powered pistols is not presure, but slide velocity.

Just read some of the posts from Clark. Modern pistols, and brass, can take the pressure of hot loads, but how many designs can take the battering of such heavy loads?

When brute power is required, I will use my revolvers. When the target requires less than that, I will use my semi-automatic pistols.

For situations in between, I will wing it.

Ford
January 18, 2004, 11:48 PM
300 gr at 700 to 725 fps?
So this means that actuall velocities probably won't hit even 700 fps.
I don't know , it's not doing much for me.
Like others said, It need to be 850 + fps IMHO.
I know that I don't want to be the first one to spend $3k on it to see if it will function properly.

doublebarrel
January 19, 2004, 01:57 PM
They posted the price on their web site, among other things...

http://guncrafterindustries.com/model_1.htm

I think this fat cartridge look so cool...
http://guncrafterindustries.com/images/50GI.jpg

Andrew Wyatt
January 19, 2004, 02:38 PM
... i wonder if you could modify a UMP to shoot this.

Sean Smith
January 19, 2004, 03:16 PM
Well, the price of the thing wasn't a rumor. Let's see, half the power of 10mm Auto, factory ammo prices will probably make 10mm look like .22LR by comparison, and it costs 50% more than the Yost custom job in 10mm I've got. I can't see this being a viable venture for $3,000 a pop... maybe half that price?

:scrutiny:

1911Tuner
January 19, 2004, 03:24 PM
Just out of morbid curiosity, I dug up a GI Rand...

I went down to the ol' loadin' bench and cobbled up a few .45 rounds
with X.Y grains of Unique and a Speer 250 grain lead semi-wadcutter.
(.45 Colt bullet) Without any undue signs of pressure or excessive
recoil/frame battering, using a fresh 16 pound spring, the chronograph
insists that the average for 5 shots was 877 fps. Functioning was
perfect, and the slide locked open on empty. Unless the makers of the
killer-diller, double throwdown Fat Fifty plan on a +p loading later on,
the .45 beats it hands down for terminal ballistics. The extra 50 grains
and .050 inch of bullet diameter may will make up for part of the difference,
but...Will the cross-sectional difference of the 50 limit penetration? If
it does..which it likely will...how much? Will it be a good thing or a bad thing? Will it penetrate "enough" without overpenetrating? Or will
it fail to penetrate deeply enough that it can't be relied on to reach the
vitals of a human attacker under all circumstances? (Heavy clothing...
diagonal shots...automobile sheet metal, etc.)

Since the implied role of such a pistol is for the purposes of duty/defense...
these things need to be assessed, methinks.

What say you all?

Tuner

Sean Smith
January 19, 2004, 03:30 PM
Actually, a 300gr .50 is going to have a higher sectional density than a 230gr .45 ACP. So all else being equal, which it usually ain't, I'd expect it to penetrate more, not less, than the .45.

http://benchrest.com/sst/sd.html

1911Tuner
January 19, 2004, 03:40 PM
Sean said:

Actually, a 300gr .50 is going to have a higher sectional density than a 230gr .45 ACP.

But...Will the higher sectional density be enough to overcome the cross
sectional drag of the 50 with its low velocity? It would be interesting
to see the test results on a side-by-side comparison. My guess is that
my handload with the 250 grain pill would outpenetrate it by a considerable
margin.

I ain't willin' to spend the bucks for one of my very own to test, though.
Now...if the members wanna chip in and buy me one, I'll be happy to wring it out thorougly and report in detail..:D

Chitty Chitty Boom-Boom...

Tuner

Andrew Wyatt
January 19, 2004, 03:58 PM
Tuner, would you trust that handload on hog?

1911Tuner
January 19, 2004, 04:12 PM
Andrew asked:

Tuner, would you trust that handload on hog?

Only if the pistol was a backup to my .358 Winchester rifle.:D

Seriously though, if you're talking about feral pigs, sure. If I'm in
the puckerbrush with a wounded Black Russian Boar...nossir!
D'ruther face a bear than a pissed off pig with me on the radar screen.
Those things are the baddest news this side of Cape Buffalo. They're
not afraid of ANY-thing, and they'll pick a fight with a moving Land Rover just because they're bored.
Ask me how I know...:rolleyes:

A friend of mine was talking to me once about how he'd like to hunt boar with a lance...in the traditional European style of Kings. I told him that
the LAST thing he wanted was a pig on a stick. "You will lose that fight."

Pen me:

Tuner the tree-climber...

Black Snowman
January 19, 2004, 05:21 PM
I really think a .50 auto needs a bigger chassis than the 1911 to be a signifigant and functional improvement over the .45, particularly the .45 super. I think with a slightly larger .50 round in a USP .45 size gun and you've got a potent duty weapon with a heavy enough slide to handle the power.

In my uneducated, inexperianced, and unfunded opinion I want just a little bigger :) If it can't squarely beat the .45 Super in power I really don't see a point in making the effort other than to just have a bigger hole. I still want to make my .50 ASP, which would be a slightly longer .50 GI pushing closer to 900 FPS with a 325 gr Gold Dot. For about $3000 I might even be able to make it happen.

Double Naught Spy
January 19, 2004, 07:40 PM
Sean, the .50GI may penetrate a little more than the .45 acp, maybe not. That has yet to be seen. But what the heck, without mortar sights, the drop rate on the .50 GI is going to be so much that shooting anything at 50 yards or more is just going to be an exercise in semi-controlled lobbing of 300 gr. slugs.

I but the 9 mm folks are just laughing. If a .45 is slow and heavy at 850 fps and 230 gr and we know the drop rates it has, then just imagine how much slower and heavier the .50 GI and how much more of a drop rate it will have than a .45 acp.

That is not a trait I am looking for in a gun, something with a greater drop rate than a .45 acp.

bigjim
January 19, 2004, 07:50 PM
Drop drop past 50 yards is much less important than people drop at point blank. This People drop is something I suspect the .50 GI will do well.

I have seen 300 grain pistol bullets expanded. They are bigger than a quarter when fully expanded. If you can make a Bullet for the .50 GI with a big big hollow point cavity that reliably expands to over a inch in diameter and still goes deep enough to get to the vitals this will be a real contender for street king. Still not a magic wand for droping goblins but maybe a step closer.

Imagine to effect of something bigger than a broom handle pushed all the way through your lung. I am guessing blood pressure would drop rapidly.

Nightcrawler
January 19, 2004, 07:55 PM
That is not a trait I am looking for in a gun, something with a greater drop rate than a .45 acp.

All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared. :neener:

Did they publish the velocity? Why so low? Why not drop the grainage and up teh velocity? You still get the bigger hole.

How about a 260 grain bullet at 900 feet per second?

1911Tuner
January 19, 2004, 08:42 PM
T'was said:

All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared.

T'is true...but the longer the object is in the air, the farther it drops
at a given distance.

With a 100 yard zero, the difference in drop between a 30-30 and a
.220 Swift is signifigant. I believe DoubleNaught's reference to drop
was related to the flight time of the bullet from muzzle to target.

Cheers!

Tuner

Double Naught Spy
January 19, 2004, 09:30 PM
Tuner is correct, hence the reference to the mortar sights.

Yes, the information was provided on 1911forum by t-tac. http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69478&highlight=mortar

Why is the velocity so low? My guess is that the longevity of the frame is in question in regard to the weight of the slug. No doubt the extra recoil would take its toll on the frame fairly quickly if the energy the frame is to handle is going to be much more than what JMB designed into the regular 1911 gun, which the .50 GI is fit into. If the .50 GI were to exceed the standards of the .45acp setup, such as with a super sonic round, the platform will suffer, then fail.

BluesBear
January 20, 2004, 02:25 AM
I have seen 300 grain pistol bullets expanded.
Not at <700fps you haven't. Unless it was a Reynolds Wrap jacket over a Silly Putty Core.

For 40 years I have watched the .45/.357 debates.
For 30 years I have watched the 9mm/.45 debates.
For 15 years I have wayched the .40/.45 debates.
All well and good because there was at least anecdotal if not factual evidence for the arguments.

Now we're having the .50/.45 debate and no one's even fired one yet.

We're talking bullets people, not cookie cutters.
The majority concensus seems to be that temporary stretch cavity is not important. Will the human body be able to tell the difference between a .45" hole and a .50" one?

Given the same velocity and diameter penetration increases with weight.
Given the same velocity and weight penetration decreases with diameter.

Do you think that a slower, wider bullet, neavier bullet will somehow be able to perform better?

Didn't we go through something like this 50 years ago with the Winchester .38 Special 200gr Super Police load?

But then I doubt the 50 year old shooter is the target demographic.

Feanaro
January 20, 2004, 03:51 AM
Am I the only one not impressed?

1911Tuner
January 20, 2004, 04:54 AM
Feanaro asked:

Am I the only one not impressed?

Count me in on that number...

BluesBear...good points.

There is somethin' about the thoughts of that fat, heavy slug's impact
at 5 feet that makes me go...OWWWWWTCH, though.:eek:
Maybe that's the intent of the designer. Maximum thump at close
range. Penetration won't really be a factor. It won't have to expand.
Think of the wound photos that we've seen of the .58 caliber Minie'
from the War for Southern Independence:D Those started at about
950 fps, and the ballistic coefficient on those was such that, even at 100
yards, the bullet probably wasn't clocking much over 600 fps...yet the
damage that they caused was horrific, and the terminal effect was
immediate and dramatic. THUMP! Man down.

Will it be any better than the .45, or even the 9mm in its terminal effect
at close range? No way to tell really...until it hits the street in sufficient
numbers to obtain a database...and at 3,000 dollars a copy, that may take a long time.

Good debate, and good points by all.

Tuner

45auto
January 20, 2004, 11:12 AM
On the plus side, this new entry is what keeps the 1911 "fresh and different" so to speak.

IMHO, the 1911 platform excels in a larger bore both in user control and durability. Smaller calibers, although fine in a 1911 work well in many platforms, unlike larger calibers...revolvers excluded of course.

As long as it's "shootable", I'd rather see this direction than the 45 gap for example...for the 1911 anyway. Expanding bullets of, perhaps, an inch can't be all bad. Fun gun for now.

But, we'll see.

1911Tuner
January 20, 2004, 11:42 AM
We may never know if it'll fly. When word gets to the Dream Team of
Feinstein, Schumer, Clinton, Clinton, and Kennedy the reaction will be
one of abject horror! I can hear'em now...

"FIRST Smith & Wesson turned loose on an unsuspecting public, a
horrific weapon of destruction in a .500 caliber revolver, and NOW we have to face the destructive power of a 50 caliber Semi-Automatic ASSAULT
pistol that is not only smaller and completely CONCEALABLE under a
tube top...it has more FIREPOWER! Ladies and gentlemen...A .50
caliber weapon has been used to bring warplanes down by our military.
It's only a matter of time before the TERRORIST CELLS in this country
get these things and begin shooting our commercial jetliners down.
They may even be able to bring down an F-16! We cannot allow the
gun culture to bring our country to ruin with this horrible weapon of
mass destruction. These things are a greater threat than sniper rifles
and machine guns! The street gangs will be able to blow police cars up
with it. It will bring about global warming with its muzzle blast and tremendous rate of FIRE! We must save the children! We must save the soccer moms! We owe it to future generations!

Vote for me.:neener:

Kamicosmos
January 20, 2004, 02:53 PM
wow! I almost thought I was reading an actual politicians statement there Tuner!


My take on this particualar round is a big unimpressed. It really doesn't seem to do anything a .45 can't.

Now, bump the velocity up to near a grand, and it starts to interest me, but the bigger gun needed for that doesn't.

If I want a thumper of a caliber, I go to my 44's, or will load my 45 up a bit.

BluesBear
January 21, 2004, 11:56 AM
1911Tuner wrote;
These things are a greater threat than sniper rifles and machine guns! The street gangs will be able to blow police cars up with it. It will bring about global warming with its muzzle blast and tremendous rate of FIRE! Not to worry.
RBCD doesn't load ammo for it yet. :neener:

doublebarrel
January 21, 2004, 12:11 PM
But, WAIT!


1911Tuner, I'm impressed. You're hilarious! Hope you don't mind I post your work to the Ruger forum(with proper credits given, of course...) :D

1911Tuner
January 21, 2004, 02:13 PM
doublebarrel said:

1911Tuner, I'm impressed.

Thank yewwww...:cool:
------------------------------

Hope you don't mind I post your work to the Ruger forum(with proper credits given, of course...)

Not at all, lad. As a future public servant, I need all the exposure that
I can get for proper name recognition. When I'm president, you may expect a cabinet appointment with all perks.
--------------------------------
You're hilarious!

On to New Hampshire! I understand the good folks there appreciate
havin' a man in office who isn't so stuffy...:D

Andrew Wyatt
January 21, 2004, 02:37 PM
Tuner, can i be secretary of Recoil?

Hand_Rifle_Guy
January 24, 2004, 09:04 PM
This is the thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=92448) Tamara didn't feel like digging up. Or one of 'em, any how. This is just my version, but there's been a lot of words tossed around about this idea.

I'm just impressed it finally exists in concrete form at last. However, I am unimpressed with the cost. I should think I could arrange for a Bar-sto-converted Glock 20 and a couple-hunnerd lathe-turned cases for that amount of money, and actually have some leftover. This was Alaska Roy's plan over on TFL, but I never heard how that project finished up. I oughta send him an e-mail and find out.

HD
January 24, 2004, 10:53 PM
now i'm a wondering ; what can we neck it down to ?
480?
45?
44?
40?
375?
366?
357?...this could be fun ...
johhny , wadda you think ?

Double Naught Spy
January 24, 2004, 11:00 PM
Quote from Nightcrawler...
-----------
All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared.
-----------

That is pretty much right. There are the additional aspects of density, wind resistence/aerodynamics of object, density of air in question, etc. With that said, a smaller cross section and lighter 9 mm round traveling at 1100 (muzzle) fps has less of a drop at 100 yards (drop rate) than a heavier .45 acp with greater cross section that travels at 850 fps (muzzle). Depending on the brand and particular powder characteristics influencing the velocity, published data on the .45 acp at 100 yards can drop up to 30" for a 230 gr. projectle at about 825 fps (muzzle). I believe that was hollowpoint, but you get the idea.

So, a 50 cal projectile, heavier weight and greater cross section and flying through the air at a slower 700-725 fps means that at 100 yards, the round will drop more at 100 yards than a .45 acp which drops more than a 9 mm. Big, slow, and heavy does not scream accuracy although it may be fine for combat accuracy.

So the .50GI does not have greater reasonable reach. It definitely is not going to pose any greater threat to body armor (such as some 9 mm penetrating where .45 acp can't, for example) being wider and slower. The gun costs several times as much as a stock .45 acp and 50% more than my Wilson CQB. Ammo is 2.5 times the cost of what I pay for defensive ammo and practice ammo will probably be closer 4-5 times as much as I don't reload. The ammo at that velocity is not yet proven or remotely substantiated as a reasonable defensive performer.

So no, I am not impressed either. When the cost of the gun gets down to about $1000, history exists to support a clear 50K plus life of the platform, ammo is $10 a box for 50 rounds of ball ammo and no more than $20 for defensive ammo, and somebody has some real data on performance characteristics that indicate the gun is a definitive better stopper than .45 acp, I will be placing my order. I will also be ordering 10 magazines, 5000 of ball ammo and 1000 of defensive ammo. I'll splurge extra for the night sights and a melt job.

Simple standards, but reasonable.

voilsb
January 25, 2004, 06:37 AM
Nightcrawler:
All objects accelerate towards the ground at 32 meters per second, squared.Unless you're on Earth, then it's 9.8 m/s^2, or 32 ft/s^2

1911Tuner
January 25, 2004, 06:45 AM
HD asked:

now i'm a wondering ; what can we neck it down to ?
480?
45?
44?
40?
375?
366?
357?...this could be fun ...
johhny , wadda you think ?

Why not go all the way down to .25 caliber? The little 50-grain JRN
should hit about 4,000 fps. We could call it the 25/50 SuperBlitz and
make a fortune. P.T. Barnum practically guarantees it...:D

Double Naught Spy
January 25, 2004, 10:16 AM
The Superblitz would be a fun gun, but I bet the muzzle flash and report would be nothing less than spectacular with Dragon's Breath (shotgun shell brand product) fire starting abilities!

Well Nightcrawler's data 'sounded' right (to a man with math deafness), but I didn't check the units of measure.

Tamara
January 25, 2004, 10:37 AM
Big, slow, and heavy does not scream accuracy although it may be fine for combat accuracy.

Bullet drop frequently has nothing to do with accuracy, nor does high velocity contribute to it. Note the lack of target trophies won by 220 Swifts...

Simple standards, but reasonable.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't own a Desert Eagle or anything chambered in 10mm or .41 Magnum, right? ;)




I'm still getting a giggle out of the "It'll never replace the beloved .45 ACP in the 1911!" crew. I must've missed where it was supposed to. It's a frickin' small production specialty gun fer heaven's sake, not a challenge to your personal stash of .45 ACP ammo. People don't get this worked up about LAR Grizzlies in .50 AE, do they?

Warren
January 7, 2006, 02:02 AM
Bumping on the chance someone has, by now, some actual experience with the gun.

NineseveN
January 7, 2006, 03:14 AM
Bumping on the chance someone has, by now, some actual experience with the gun.

Dammit, I didn't check the dates on this, I thought this was really a new gun!

Booo...was fun to read though.

Warren
January 7, 2006, 04:08 AM
Sounds like a great gun, but I would have to have a lot in my "gun budget" to justify buying it.

I'm hoping that there is enough interest in the cartridge to prompt other gun makers to build a platform for it. A much less expensive platform.

Brass Balls
February 18, 2006, 08:49 PM
http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/graphics/inst_lineup_4up.jpg http://tinypic.com/bgpc39.jpg


I keep hearing good things about this pistol. I was recently reading that the inside of it is finished impeccably well. Then I keep thinking about the 300 grain JHP traveling at 860 fps. Damn, that's a lot of power for a handgun that by all accounts is quite controllable to shoot for anyone accustomed to a 1911 in .45 ACP.

ProPistols
February 27, 2006, 03:05 PM
I know I'm new here, but I'm curious. Other than me, who on this site acutally ownes one?????

Ned Christiansen
February 28, 2006, 12:14 AM
Here's the first part of a thread I started on it elsewhere some time ago, the full thread can be found at
http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=20370
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

I have one of the new Guncrafter Industries .50-cal 1911's here. I don't think I get to keep it very long, but I wanted to share some highlights with you guys as I check it out. I will try to resist the urge to go into excessive detail as we will be seeing it in some of the magazines ere long, but-- on the other hand the magazines are often light in the technical areas, so, well, let's see where this goes.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am pretty good chums with Alex Zimmermann, one of the two main cogs at GI. Other than that I have nothing to gain, no financial interest in the company, no free anything. To get this gun for a little while I'm paying shipping both ways and I bought the ammo. Yes, I would like to see GI sell a boatload of these, that's about it. I hold Alex's technical skills in the highest regard, and I was confident from the moment he let me in on the big secret that it would be well done, and that if I were to review it for folks I would not have to fudge anything or pretend not to notice any shortcomings. Friend or not, I'm not going to jeopardize my own credibility by foisting a candy-coated, rose-colored picture of the GI .50 on anyone. Now that I have it, although I'm just getting started with it, I can see already that there will be no dilemma for me in reviewing it and telling you about it. And, yes, again in the interest of being up-front about it all, if it had come to me an obvious POS, I would have quietly sent it back with my best wishes and written nothing.

The biggest question I've heard so far, is, Why? What's it for? There are so many options and calibers to be had in the 1911 already, what possible need is there for a fifty? But honestly now, if there were no other pistols and calibers beyond, say, .22 and .357, would life be so bad? Not really, but some enthusuasts want more, and ain't nothing wrong with that. Some, not all. I've said from the moment Alex told me about this, in fact these may have been my first words to him, "This won't be for everybody". I won't try to argue for its existence with any ballistic mumbo-jumbo which I am totally unqualified to put forth. Likewise, the wrong answer would be, "If you have to ask you just don't understand", but on the other hand, to use the tried-and-true high-performance vehicle analogy, who needs a bike that'll do 150+ MPH, and once they have one, why will they often as not trade it like a hot potato for one that'll do 160+?. Or perhaps even trade it for one that won't quite make 145 but handles better or stops faster or is a brighter red, or just has a badder-looking, fatter rear tire? My personal reason for being enthused about it is that it's new and different, that's always good, and it just happens to also have been done well. And as someone told me the other day, the old saying, "Why do I carry a .45? 'Cause they don't make a .46," might have just taken on new meaning! Whether it's really filling a gap, whether there's truly a need for it, is way secondary for me. As a 1911 nerd, it's good enough to just want it because

Ned Christiansen
February 28, 2006, 12:21 AM
....looks like the system won't let me post the lengthy first segment-- well, anyway, the link is there for you who are interested.

Warren
February 28, 2006, 12:59 AM
Ned, thanks for popping in and sharing your look-see at the .50 GI.

The photos from your pistolsmith thread did not load. If you could post those here that would be great.

Warren
February 28, 2006, 01:03 AM
They are expensive because they are all hand built by the just two guys right?

So if the guns get made in the usual fashion with I could see the prices coming down unless of course demand keeps the prices up.

Then again if it is popular other makers wil want to design a platform for the caliber which would hopefully bring gun and ammo costs down.

Kamicosmos
February 28, 2006, 01:12 AM
The resurrection of this thread and it's subject matter force me to ask:


What Caliber For Zombie Threads?

:neener:

ProPistols
February 28, 2006, 11:57 AM
Thank You Ned for taking the time to answer the question. I have found it quite disturbing after reading the many posts on the subject that some can and will criticize this product without ever touching the pistol. Well, I touch the product, shoot the product and know the men who built it. Yes, it is everything AZ and VT said it is. And yes, it is a BIG caliber gun that shoots softly and handles beautifully. For me, it's like the truck I drive. I could have left my 7.3 powerstroke stock, but now that it's been souped up, it gives me more of what I liked about it in the first place. Yes, I'm a huge 1911 fan. I've owned or sold every top 1911 on the market. Guncrafter Industries makes a beautiful product that is second to none. It is a truly functional and aesthetically beautiful product. The caliber, well that just speaks for itself. While the art of conversation is a beautiful thing, I feel you must have some knowledge and experience with the product before you may judge it. And for those who question the price, well as my dad told me as a boy and something I still believe to this day, "life is too short for cheap booze, cheap women and cheap guns."
Thanks!

Correia
February 28, 2006, 12:40 PM
One thing I've learned about the internet, on any thread, about any new gun that costs more than a Highpoint, somebody is going to complain about the price.

It is a speciality custom gun people. Just because it don't float your boat doesn't mean that it sucks. I could go through life armed with a Ruger P series and a Mossberg 500 and be prepared for just about anything. But that would be BORING. :) If somebody has the cash to buy a beautiful custom gun, good for them. It isn't their fault they make more money than the rest of us. Let them enjoy it. Jeez. :p

ajax
February 28, 2006, 01:26 PM
I personally think it kicks ass. Unfortunetly for me it's not a practical firearm ,but it sure is COOL.:evil:

Ned Christiansen
February 28, 2006, 03:56 PM
Well, this thread started quite some time ago, I think when they first came out. Opinions and speculation are perfectly natural. I'm just fortunate enough to be able to say "I knew that guy before he got big..... ideas!".

Like with the 6.8, .17HMR, .357 SIG-- new stuff spurrs new debate.

I'll see what I can do about the pics.

Warren
February 28, 2006, 05:17 PM
How about a more detailed range report on your .50?

Ned Christiansen
February 28, 2006, 07:15 PM
These pics don't mean as much without the text, but here they are.......
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12866

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12865

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12864

http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/0808104/12956559651.jpg

Ned Christiansen
February 28, 2006, 11:45 PM
...and, one of the custom .50 I did for a verygood customer of mine. Pic is from the LTW display at SHOT this year.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/mediumfoto/picts/ulfls/2801106/16641124931.jpg

ProPistols
March 1, 2006, 12:38 AM
It puts a bigger hole in the paper than a .45 ;) The pistol points and handles beautifully. The checkering is a unique style 20LPI that is effective and protected. The metal work on this pistol is first class and the fit of slide to frame is tight. The accuracy is excellent. I've been able to make one hole, albeit a big hole, at 25 yards. In measuring the group size, it was under an inch. The recoil is soft and the gun soaks up muzzle flip nicely with that big bull barrel. The magazines are nice, very nice and totally reliable. I do scramble for my cases since they are costly. But, if you place a 5 gallon bucket perfectly, you'll catch most of them. It knocks down steel targets quickly! It slams them down with considerable more umph than my beloved .45s. And while this pistol may not be for everyone, anyone that has shot mine, has thought seriously about placing an order with GI. The gun is that remarkable!!!!! Yes, it is serious money, but well worth the cost. I do reload the 50. It makes it more cost effective. But, I'll be much more happy when I can load the ammo on a Dillon instead. I'm hoping Dillon will be making the conversion plates available in the future. If you get a change to shoot this gun, and shoot it on steel, you'll be saving your pennies as I did.

Ned Christiansen
March 1, 2006, 01:09 AM
Pro, not sure what conversion plate you're referring to-- I can't think of any reason you couldn't load .50 GI on any Dillon (but them I'm still using the 450 I bought in '83:uhoh: ).

ProPistols
March 1, 2006, 10:37 AM
I know the base is .45 sized, but the top plate for a 650? I don't think Dillon has the correct plate yet, along with all the goodies to make it run seemlessly. I think they have to do a powder thingy that flares the case the stuff for the casefeeder, etc. I don't know all that is involved I just know that Dillon doesn't offer it in their catalog yet.

Warren
March 1, 2006, 04:55 PM
Kamicosmos spoketh

The resurrection of this thread and it's subject matter force me to ask:


What Caliber For Zombie Threads?

Do you mean for use against zombies or the clothes they wear, or the forum threads concerning zombies?

XDKingslayer
March 1, 2006, 05:08 PM
If a .45 can knock a man down and blow both his arms off with a shot to the pinky and sink battleships, imagine what this cartridge will do! I mean, the .45 has so much recoil that if you shoot it one handed, it will rip your arm off and impale the person behind you! I can't stand the thought of .05 more inches!

Actually it's much worse than you imagined. You will only be allowed to shoot these new 1911's at ranges that face due north or due south. Shooting to the west or east will cause the rotation of the earth to either speed up or slow down, screwing up the space time continuim.

There is also much concern for the muzzle flash to melt the polar ice caps.

whitebear
March 1, 2006, 07:28 PM
Warren -

Do you mean for use against zombies or the clothes they wear, or the forum threads concerning zombies?

Neither - I think he means against zombie THREADS - this conversation started in January of 2004, and has arisen from the dead!

BloodyRAzorBlades
March 1, 2006, 09:51 PM
haha that should give the 50 cal Desert Eagle a run for it's money:D

MachIVshooter
March 1, 2006, 11:13 PM
haha that should give the 50 cal Desert Eagle a run for it's money

I would hope this statemant is tongue-in-cheek:scrutiny:

If not, I'll simply point this out:

The .50 AE produces roughly 4 times the muzzle energy of the .50 GI.

ProPistols
March 1, 2006, 11:29 PM
Does THR actually discuss guns from people who own them, shoot them and have actual working knowledge of the products in question? I'm not trying to start a fight, I just want to understand this environment.

Does it really bother some of you that the gun is as good as it is stated? Or, are you angered by the cost of a true custom gun and the feeding of it? Everyone has different passions in life. Those differences are what make us great. Ned's 50 is spectacular. Are you going to chastise him for the fee he charged for his work? Are you going to insult his work because you choose not to purchase from him? I'm sorry for sounding stupid, but I just don't understand why there is such negative conversation about a product I appear to be the ONLY owner of. I would think the opinions of OWNERS would carry the weight of the conversation here. Yes I agree conversation is a great thing, but can we allow the conversation to be based upon fact and not speculation?

Thanks for letting me rant.

Warren
March 1, 2006, 11:42 PM
For me, I love the idea. I also love the idea of keeping $3000+ (with .45 conversion set, reloading supplies etc.) in my pocket.

Though the more I think of it the more attractive the idea of buying it becomes.


I would love to shoot one before buying one but the odds that any one within a days drive of me having one is slim.

Ned Christiansen
March 2, 2006, 12:11 PM
Pro, if you check the dates I think you'll find that the posts you are referring to are pretty old. I think now that there have been several magazine articles about the GI, and all the questions answered, everybody is better informed and better understands the GI.

Correia
March 2, 2006, 06:26 PM
Pro, see my post on the last page.

I figure that if somebody has the money to afford the finer things in life, good for them. They work hard for their money, and if they want a nice custom gun, the nay sayers need to just chill out and let them have their fun.

mbs357
March 2, 2006, 08:57 PM
A myth?
I read about this thing years ago.
Whoops! Didn't notice the date.
Two years ago sounds about right. ;D

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