Body Armor


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azmjs
June 11, 2011, 02:57 PM
I wonder how many of you own body armor.

I think that anyone even remotely concerned about protecting his own life ought to own at least some basic body armor.

After buying one or two guns, the marginal utility of additional guns for personal safety plummets to almost nothing.

For the price of one or two decent guns, you can get first-rate armor, and a simple second-chance vest costs even less.

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geekWithA.45
June 11, 2011, 03:01 PM
The reality is that the armor hangs in the closet next to the house defense gun. I've owned it for perhaps 10 years, and worn it about 4, 5 times, most of which were "bump in the night" events.

azmjs
June 11, 2011, 03:05 PM
I think wearing it to the range or out shooting in the country is good practice for wearing it in a home defense situation, and has the built in advantage of saving your life if you catch a ND.

dusty14u
June 11, 2011, 03:13 PM
Gecko45 writes:

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

;)

M-Cameron
June 11, 2011, 03:13 PM
honestly.....your "average" person has little need for body armour.

so much so.....that its expense is not off set by its percentage of use......or quite simply.....its most likely going to sit in your closet and you will curse spending the money on it every time you see it.


would armour be helpful in a home invasion.....i suppose........but then again, so would my own personal army, a panic room, and a pack of trained dogs..........

...but the chance of a break-in is so slim, that im not going to waste the money.....

Chopdoktor
June 11, 2011, 03:16 PM
I've had a level IIIa "concealable" (only under a hooded sweatshirt or a coat is it concealable) vest, and I decided that it wasn't worth keeping around, based on the likelihood of threats in my lifestyle. I'm not against owning them, but I think that unless you live in the worst ghetto imaginable, and plan to wear it to the grocery store or gas station, it'd only be something to keep by the bedside in case of home invasion. I do, however have a level III plate in my MOLLE vest, but that's because if I'm ever in a situation to need a load-bearing tactical vest, I'll probably need armor, too (an extremely unlikely scenario).

Pigoutultra
June 11, 2011, 03:26 PM
Another point is that it also comes down to comfort. Some people find it uncomfortable to cc for long periods of time. Body armor is even more uncomfortable. Also, if you intend to use it for home defense, just how much time do expect to have once alerted to a home invasion till engaging the threat? I've never had experience with body armor that goes on fast as a shirt.

AZ
June 11, 2011, 03:31 PM
Gecko45 writes:

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

;)
Who is this Gecko45 genius? First that mall ninja post and now this, guy must be a real character.

HavelockLEO
June 11, 2011, 03:43 PM
I didnt vote cause I wear both..........................
I wear kevlar everyday and I got a composite trauma plate to go in the front carrier with the soft plate my body armor came with.
Youre preaching to chior about it getting uncomfortable after hours and hours of wear, but it is what it is, I'll take the discomfort during the work day.
On a different note though, I shoot IPSC and local CQB matches and I wear my armor and leather gear during each, for onr simple reason, if I'm so used to both that they dont get in the way, I'm already a step ahead of most guys in my line of work.
But thats just my opinion.......

RX-178
June 11, 2011, 03:49 PM
I've got a good bit of armor around the house.

Kevlar, ballistic plate, flak jackets, chainmail...

I'm a collector of stuff like this though, so I don't figure my vote means much to an everyday person, or even an average gun nut.

Double Naught Spy
June 11, 2011, 04:34 PM
honestly.....your "average" person has little need for body armour.
Sort of like the average person has little need for a firearm?

forindooruseonly
June 11, 2011, 04:54 PM
Who is this Gecko45 genius? First that mall ninja post and now this, guy must be a real character.

Gecko45 was the ORIGINAL mall ninja, and originator of many mall-ninja ideas, such as the tactical wheelbarrow. Google him for a good laugh.

All joking aside, I'm not LE and don't want to wear that around all the time. Have you ever worn body armor? That stuff is not comfortable, especially in a hot climate. In a home break in situation, I'm not going to waste time trying to button that stuff up.

I'll trust to my judgement, and if absolutely necessary, my training to keep me alive.

AlexanderA
June 11, 2011, 04:57 PM
I have a set of replica 17th century pikeman's armor. Does that count?

There's a reason the musketeers of that day didn't wear armor. It was very mobility-limiting, and heavy.

The same rationale applies to some degree today.

SleazyRider
June 11, 2011, 05:07 PM
I have Kevlar armor that was given to me by a LEO because it was showing signs of wear and the department replaced it. I'm seriously thinking about wearing it under my coat during the next (New York State) rifle hunting season. Hey, one never knows.

Ramone
June 11, 2011, 05:14 PM
I have both a Second Chance III vest and a Circa 1980 USMC 'flac jacket'- the first I was given by a LEO buddy when his agency issued new ones, and the other I ended up with when I got out of the Marines (really, I have no idea how or why I wound up with it- not high on my list of souvenirs, but there it is).

They do make a good 'Safe Direction' (as in rule 2) when clearing/clearing/handling weapons at home- they hang in the closet, and on the opposite side of the wall they are on is an old sighting in target.

Other than that, I don't have much use for them. I believe that the time spent grabbing checking and donning one would be better spent finding good cover.

esheato
June 11, 2011, 05:30 PM
I acquired a vest a few years ago.

Tried it on to adjust the fit and hung it in the closet. Haven't touched it since.

Robert
June 11, 2011, 05:50 PM
I wore armor every day for work. I do not wear it now. Buy it if you like. I am fine without it.

usmarine0352_2005
June 11, 2011, 07:03 PM
.


That Gecko45 stuff is some of the funniest stuff I have ever read. lol


.

M-Cameron
June 11, 2011, 07:04 PM
honestly.....your "average" person has little need for body armour.
Sort of like the average person has little need for a firearm
no, not what i meant.

.....a firearm isnt overly uncomfortable to wear.......and you can use a firearm for other things other than defending your self.......unlike armour.


now when i said that, i didnt mean people shouldnt be allowed to buy body armour.....

..i meant it on the same lines as, your average person doesnt need a bulldozer....so it makes no sense for them to go out and buy one......

and since the chance of them ever needing a bulldozer in the future is so slim......it doesnt justify the cost of buying one.

longshot7.62x51
June 11, 2011, 07:33 PM
i have my issue and a IVa vest with ESAPI that i bought before we where issued them but i would never ware in out side a combat zone. hell given a choice i would only ware a plate in country

JAV8000
June 11, 2011, 07:34 PM
Body armor with SAPI plates is very mobility limiting, plain and simple. I wear my issue IOTV body armor every day in 120 degree heat.....there comes a time after a three or four click movement in this rig that all you want is someone to scrape your tail end off the sand so you can tear it off and breath again. In any civilian environment, I can't imagine the need for level 4 body armor. Unless you're trained to wear it and train with it on the regular, you'll never, ever, ever, wear it. If you've got yourself in a situation as a civilian where you really need body armor of any kind, hold tight for back-up. Self defense with a firearm is last resort, if you're operating properly, you should have the jump on the assailant since he shouldn't know you had a weapon to begin with.

Apocalypse-Now
June 11, 2011, 08:27 PM
that dragon skin armor looks pretty good. saw it on the military channel. little ceramic discs.

there's another type of body armor in development, i believe they said it was made of similar material as spider webs, but it's exact makeup is "classified".



i googled Gecko45, and he says he is in a "high risk job" and "doesn't work at mall of america, but he doesn't work at a podunk mall either", and went on to say he carries ceramic plates in his briefcase to protect his head from gun fire LMAO!!!

HammerheadSSN663
June 11, 2011, 08:30 PM
why did you feel its important to include names?

I certaintly would not respond to such a poll.

BTW, I only wear mine with my tighty-whiteys when I play COD Black Ops in the basement while the wife is sleeping.

skoro
June 11, 2011, 08:35 PM
I have one of the old M1 steel helmets. It still has the camo cover, too. Does that count?

danprkr
June 11, 2011, 08:51 PM
I know some range officers who wear it at work, and of course cops. But I got mine via a strange occurrence. It was in a rental unit I cleaned out. But I see no reason not to have it since it was literally given me. Actually considering the back rent we were owed it may very well be the most expensive piece of body armor ever! :(

Heretic
June 11, 2011, 09:09 PM
Tried it on to make sure it fit, but never worn it on a date or nuthin'.

IlikeSA
June 12, 2011, 12:05 AM
I wore armor for a year for work, and never needed it. I was glad it was there...for reassurance, in scary situations, but man was it a pain in the hot Georgia summer out under the sun directing traffic.

I may get some more for my new job, but am just considering it now. It is nice to have when you need it, but a pain when you don't.

pikid89
June 12, 2011, 12:07 AM
there's another type of body armor in development, i believe they said it was made of similar material as spider webs, but it's exact makeup is "classified".

or perhaps the research on making armor out of a shear thickening non newtownian fluids...soft most of the time, but instantly hardens at the moment of impact to stop the bullet/ knife/ ice pick etc...

think of silly putty...slow pull and its like chewing gum...hard rip and pop its snaps like its brittle
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlEo5MbcaX0

Sunray
June 12, 2011, 12:29 AM
"...thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua..." You have somebody to help you carry it? A Second Chance Hard Corps III that can stop a 7.62NATO ball round at 1 foot, weighs 20 lbs.
Body armour isn't legal to own everywhere.
"...never ware..." Never what?

hermannr
June 12, 2011, 12:43 AM
I used my flack jacket for a seat cushion in my Jeep in Vietnam why should I change now? I figure if my number is up, it's up, body armour or not.

M1key
June 12, 2011, 12:45 AM
Gecko45=gunkid

M

JO JO
June 12, 2011, 12:53 AM
i see some replys state have armor for 10 years just in case or stored next to hd gun keep in mind many types of vest degrade over time and will be less effectice lots of vest will have exp. dates on there inserts

84B20
June 12, 2011, 12:58 AM
I still have the level IIIA that was bought for me by the newspaper I used to work for as a photographer. It was issued during the LA riots after the Rodney King incident, or was it the OJ incident, can't remember exactly. It isn't Kevlar it is Spectra. The problem with most body armor is that it expires after about 5 years. I have only worn it a couple of times but I still keep it around. When the paper went out of business they let me keep it, besides, it’s like underwear; no one else would want to wear something that was that close to your skin.

Apocalypse-Now
June 12, 2011, 01:05 AM
perhaps the research on making armor out of a shear thickening non newtownian fluids...soft most of the time, but instantly hardens at the moment of impact to stop the bullet/ knife/ ice pick etc...

yes! that's what they said :)

pretty wild technology. maybe the spider web thing was a different one (it was late when i saw it lol)

230therapy
June 12, 2011, 01:48 AM
Every man here who understands his duty regarding the militia will acquire rifle plates and appropriate tactical gear.

Apocalypse-Now
June 12, 2011, 01:57 AM
:eek:

Nushif
June 12, 2011, 03:10 AM
I wear mine when they say I have to. And the first thing I did was remove the groin protection piece. It is stupid mobility limiting.

Heretic
June 12, 2011, 03:12 AM
Mines 10 years old. Should I take it out and shoot it to see if it still works?

kozak6
June 12, 2011, 05:49 AM
I'm not a cop. I'm not in Iraq. I'm not in Afghanistan. I'm not even in the ghetto.

I don't really see any circumstances where body armor would be useful to me. Why bother?

Travis McGee
June 12, 2011, 09:36 AM
I own soft body armor, but it's basically for a "rainy day." When you need to buy it, you might not be able to. If the USA ever "goes Argentina" during, for example, a monetary implosion, the simple trip to the stores that might still be open will be vastly more dangerous than the same trip today. And that is when you will want concealable body armor, and will not be able to purchase it through today's simple channels.

ColtPythonElite
June 12, 2011, 09:40 AM
I've been wearing it everyday for nearly 2 decades. I be glad when I no longer have to.

Double Naught Spy
June 12, 2011, 10:14 AM
Before building my own range, I used to wear mine to public ranges, matches, and classes. I have been scanned enough times by other shooters at those places that having a vest seemed prudent.

There is nothing funnier than some fellow gun owner who brings a ton of guns to the range, one that rapid firings, debates the merits of tactical rolls, proclaim that I am paranoid for wearing a ballistic vest.

As at least some officers have discovered during training is that ballistics vests do a much better job of protecting against NDs than the guns they are carrying.

Toforo
June 12, 2011, 10:47 AM
I have been unable to find body-armor that works in conjunction with my tin-foil hat.


:mad:

crossrhodes
June 12, 2011, 11:26 AM
I've worn battle rattle as a Marine and while in DHS, it all ways provided a level of mental comfort. My question is: is it illegal in some states to have body armor in your possesion????....

M-Cameron
June 12, 2011, 11:33 AM
My question is: is it illegal in some states to have body armor in your possesion????....

as far as i know....its 100% legal for anyone to buy and wear....

i believe the only exception is if you are a felon or are using it in a crime.

230therapy
June 12, 2011, 11:55 AM
I have been unable to find body-armor that works in conjunction with my tin-foil hat.

Typical Elmer Fudd reasoning. Please continue enjoying the bread and circuses.

USAF_Vet
June 12, 2011, 11:57 AM
I have some, even worn it a couple times, but not something I'd buy again.

lemaymiami
June 12, 2011, 12:37 PM
For all you armchair types.... if you do actually purchase body armor you'll find out very quickly how little fun it is to actually wear the stuff.

During a 22 year career as a cop in south Florida I bought my first vest (second chance brand) after a year on the force. It was later replaced by issue vests and I actually wore them in uniform all those years. Hot, uncomfortable, and lots of personal hygiene type issues is a normal day wearing even the lightest models.... I knew many officers (even ones in fairly high risk areas) that simply couldn't wear the stuff. On my own Department there was consideration given to make wearing them mandatory... but sensible leaders realized that it had to be something an individual could live with so we never adopted any such rule.

What many should consider is the number of officers killed each year that were wearing body armor.... Lots of important body areas aren't covered, but the stuff will cover quite a bit and it was nice to know that I might be able to last long enough to win a fight, if it came to that.... One side benefit for young officers wearing the gear was that they tended to fare much better in bad car accidents that guys without body armor..... and car crashes end a lot more law enforcement careers than injuries from hand to hand or weapons involved encounters -- hands down.

Now that we once again have lots and lots of real combat vets joining police departments, those individuals will go on to shape equipment and tactics choices for the outfits they join. That's pretty much what happened in my generation (USARV, 101Abn, 1971).

Toforo
June 12, 2011, 02:20 PM
Every man here who understands his duty regarding the militia will acquire rifle plates and appropriate tactical gear.
Typical Elmer Fudd reasoning. Please continue enjoying the bread and circuses

BIGGBAY90
June 12, 2011, 03:09 PM
i'm not a cop. I'm not in iraq. I'm not in afghanistan. I'm not even in the ghetto.

I don't really see any circumstances where body armor would be useful to me. Why bother?
i agree with that for now

ripp
June 12, 2011, 03:15 PM
no, gecko.45 is not and was not ol'GK, that much I know for a fact.

RetDep310
June 12, 2011, 03:19 PM
26 years was long enough to wear body armor.....glad to be rid of it!!!! Now I do have an old packet of Kwik Clot that I "forgot" to turn in when I retired. If I need it, it'll plug the hole until the medic arrives.........

IcemanUnlimited
June 12, 2011, 03:38 PM
I misvoted.. I don't own my own vest yet but plan on getting one since I retail them anyway.

My usual customers are just LEOs buying a duty vest. I wouldn't recommend buying a Just-In-Case vest that stays in your closet as a civilian, considering they break down after five or so years. If you wear it often, then it'll probably be worth your while. I DO carry some thinner more comfortable models but you'll be spending an extra few hundred dollars.

aryfrosty
June 12, 2011, 03:40 PM
An unfortunate "other" consideration of wearing soft armor is that it is now illegal in many of the areas where it would be most needed. Get caught wearing it and you may face an "enhanced" charge. That may be wrong but it is just the way it is. In Chattanooga, Tennessee recently a veteran Police Sergeant was murdered on the job by an armed robber who had been struck by a patrol car and shot. The career criminal/bad guy turned out to be wearing armor. (1*)
I am retired from law enforcement and I see both sides of the issue. I have an older issued armor hanging in my closet and it hasn't been off the hook in years. It is good to have friends who can pass down a set to you if their agency replaces armor but there is a serious reason for the reissue...soft armor panels DO deteriorate as they are worn...cycles of being worn and sweated in and drying hamper the ability of armor to stop rounds. Many officers won't do what is needed to protect the armor that protects them. It should be taken out of the carrier and hung in a dry and cool place on off days. The carrier should be laundered and dried properly while the panels are airing out. Many officers would take the time and do it right but they may not KNOW what is required. If it's important to you to wear armor spend the shekels and buy a good set for yourself. And you will spend some serious shekels, $500.00-$1,000.00 or more for a decent armor.
For the poster who mentioned that he would wear armor in the woods during hunting season: don't waste your time on the weight and discomfort. If you could get a set that would stop deer hunting sized rounds you'd have to have a gunbearer to wear it for you.
In a funny, (ironic), twist to this: I was shot on the job about 31 years ago and armor would not have helped me if I had been wearing it. I was shot in the hip/thigh.

(1*) Rest in peace, Sergeant Tim Chapin, Chattanooga, Tennessee Police Department.

il_10
June 12, 2011, 03:45 PM
I've got an old PASGT Flak vest floating around in my car somewhere.

The Lone Haranguer
June 12, 2011, 04:00 PM
An on duty LEO? Sure. A soldier in a war zone? Absolutely. Since I am neither, I will save my money for more guns. :D

Reasoned1
June 12, 2011, 04:19 PM
Got deployed to Desert Shield/Storm (dating myself) and thought it made sense to get a vest with ballistic chest plate to wear under my flak vest (paid $300). I do believe that combination would've stopped 7.62x39mm (certainly felt like it). Of course, most of my unit thought I was going a little overboard--how was I supposed to know we'd mostly be playing cards and GameBoy over there?! Anyway, it got stolen by one of my fellow enlisted men on the way back. I would like to get another, even though the likelihood of my having it on--even in the case of a home invasion--seems exceedingly small.

altitude_19
June 12, 2011, 04:45 PM
I have some "surplus" laying around. It's old, but the 5 year thing is not chiseled in stone. One cannot possibly believe a vest exposed to harsh field conditions (sweat, heat, and abrasion) will expire in the exact same timeframe as one that is in a climate controlled house. I've seen old kevlar shot on a couple occasions. The "never issued" stuff always takes the hit as designed, even if it's expired. As for owning IBA being overboard...well, I doubt any one of us would have objected to having good body armor during saaaaaay, Hurricane Katrina. The Missouri river about to burst its banks less than one mile from where I sit serves as the latest reminder that large scale disaster is possible anywhere, anytime and may easily result in civil disorder. I won't say anybody is crazy for having it or electing not to. Arguments both ways... But the OVER prepared guy has rarely been caught wishing he had been the under-prepared guy.

woerm
June 12, 2011, 06:08 PM
I was working 150' from an international border w/ a civil war going on on the other side of the line.

I'm blase about rifle fire, if my number is up, it's up.

I am more irked about grenades and ordnance addressed 'to whom it may concern':cuss:

kevlar works fine for that and it was cheap insurance.

Job is over but I kept the armor, hey it was paid for already.:D

r

geekWithA.45
June 12, 2011, 06:18 PM
Tactical wheelbarrow = gunkid, whose real world identity is known.
Gecko.45 is a sock puppet in jest for another person to support the gag. This person's real world identity is also known, and it is not gunkid.

GeekWithA.45 has nothing to do with either.

pikid89
June 12, 2011, 07:12 PM
Now I do have an old packet of Kwik Clot that I "forgot" to turn in

be careful with that powdered stuff...use it in the wrong kind of wound and youve got a dangerous blood clot floating around your innards waiting to stop up something important...everyday people would probably be better off "plugging holes" with a tampon or the newer Kwik Clot bandages.

Erik M
June 12, 2011, 07:28 PM
I have a Vietnam era flak jacket, but its only made of what i assume is a poly/cotton shell over ballistic nylon. I wouldn't trust it to stop a .22lr round. Did wonders back in my paint balling days though. I was playing with a guy that used to deck out in full body shielding like superbike motorcycle racers do, only to see him look up in the air and get shot in the throat from less than 10 feet away. yes, he was driven to the ER with a serious injury.

Edit: I do have a pair of slash/needle proof gloves given to me from a sheriff deputy friend, don't know if that counts as armor.

EmGeeGeorge
June 12, 2011, 07:32 PM
Forttthhh Feeld for thuth guy!

Ramone
June 12, 2011, 08:21 PM
Gecko.45 is a sock puppet in jest for another person to support the gag. This person's real world identity is also known, and it is not gunkid.

GeekWithA.45 has nothing to do with either.


Hmmmmm. I notice I never see you posting at the same time...

Vern Humphrey
June 12, 2011, 08:47 PM
Body armor is like a gun -- if you don't wear it all the time, you won't have it when you need it. Since I know I won't wear it 24/7, I haven't considered buying it.

dprice3844444
June 12, 2011, 08:48 PM
dusty,why just ya mark where the plate goes on the carrier in the back and have somebody sew a pocket in it

Travis McGee
June 12, 2011, 11:45 PM
I am simply amazed by the number of folks on this thread who think, "I'm not a LEO or soldier in combat, so I'm not ever going to buy a vest."

This is extremely myopic thinking. When the time comes that you WILL want to own body armor, is exactly when you WON'T be able to buy it: when the economy "goes Argentina" and crime goes exponential when folks are terrified and starving. You will still have to go out to find food, go to work etc, but your chances of being carjacked or otherwise bushwacked will be 100X greater than it is today. At that point, with no vest, you will be wishing you had bought one back in 2011 when you could get one delivered with just a few clicks of your mouse.

Of course, if you think it's absurd to even contemplate the American economy doing an Argentina, then you won't buy a vest. And I hope, sincerely, that America's economy never does go through such convulsions leading to social explosions.

But if it does, I'll want a vest. So I purchased one, just in case.

M-Cameron
June 12, 2011, 11:49 PM
I am simply amazed by the number of folks on this thread who think, "I'm not a LEO or soldier in combat, so I'm not ever going to buy a vest."

This is extremely myopic thinking. When the time comes that you WILL want to own body armor, is exactly when you WON'T be able to buy it: when the economy "goes Argentina" and crime goes exponential when folks are terrified and starving. You will still have to go out to find food, go to work etc, but your chances of being carjacked or otherwise bushwacked will be 100X greater than it is today. At that point, with no vest, you will be wishing you had bought one back in 2011 when you could get one delivered with just a few clicks of your mouse.

Of course, if you think it's absurd to even contemplate the American economy doing an Argentina, then you won't buy a vest. And I hope, sincerely, that America's economy never does go through such convulsions leading to social explosions.

But if it does, I'll want a vest. So I purchased one, just in case.

the chance of america going into full on chaos for an extended period of time where a ballistic vest might possibly come in handy

VS.

having a spare $400-700 in case of a real world emergency.......like your car breaking down, or unexpected bills...



my moneys on the later.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 12:12 AM
I am simply amazed by the number of folks on this thread who think, "I'm not a LEO or soldier in combat, so I'm not ever going to buy a vest."

This is extremely myopic thinking. When the time comes that you WILL want to own body armor, is exactly when you WON'T be able to buy it: when the economy "goes Argentina" and crime goes exponential when folks are terrified and starving. You will still have to go out to find food, go to work etc, but your chances of being carjacked or otherwise bushwacked will be 100X greater than it is today. At that point, with no vest, you will be wishing you had bought one back in 2011 when you could get one delivered with just a few clicks of your mouse.

Of course, if you think it's absurd to even contemplate the American economy doing an Argentina, then you won't buy a vest. And I hope, sincerely, that America's economy never does go through such convulsions leading to social explosions.

But if it does, I'll want a vest. So I purchased one, just in case.

That's why I'm keeping the one I was issued.


the chance of america going into full on chaos for an extended period of time where a ballistic vest might possibly come in handy

VS.

having a spare $400-700 in case of a real world emergency.......like your car breaking down, or unexpected bills...


my moneys on the later.

Then why even have a gun, you'll probably never need one either? Just think about another Katrina or even another LA Riot taking place some place other than LA. Society may not be as stable as some think.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 12:41 AM
I don't really see the appeal of getting body armor. It's far more practical and doable just to CC or OC a gun. Carrying a gun is somewhat understandable even to the most anti people, but wearing armor comes across as just plain paranoid.

You miss the point. It is not something most people other than LEOs or military wear every day. Re-read the last line of my previous post.

mljdeckard
June 13, 2011, 12:49 AM
I have ab IBA with plates due to a clerical error in my favor.

Having said that, no, I would never have bought a vest otherwise. I do not live a lifestyle or live in an area where I consider violence to be likely, and even if it were, vests only offer marginal protection. They have gaps, your head is still out, and remember, they are bullet RESISTANT, not bullet proof. The protection they offer is not worth the day to day discomfort of wearing one 24-7.

ny32182
June 13, 2011, 01:15 AM
The only time I could ever foresee possibly (not probably) wanting it is if I worked at a gun range, surrounded by newbies with loaded guns for 8+ hours a day, to protect against AD.

MikeNice
June 13, 2011, 01:20 AM
My wife has considerred buying me a level II because of the work I do. I haven't refused it, I just haven't encouraged her. I know the risk is out there. I also know I'm not going to wear it on every shift. So, what is the point of spending $400 on it?

wow6599
June 13, 2011, 01:27 AM
None for me.

Here is another classic from Gecko45 -

These kids want blood, and since they will have to go through me to shed any in my mall, I am constantly doging near misses and ricochets, I have taken to doubling up on my regular regimen on Body armor, as you probaly knwo.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 01:39 AM
My wife has considerred buying me a level II because of the work I do. I haven't refused it, I just haven't encouraged her. I know the risk is out there. I also know I'm not going to wear it on every shift. So, what is the point of spending $400 on it?

Check out this site before you commit to a level. Think about how comfortable a hospital stay is compared to how comfortable a vest is and don't forget, it's not just a bullet entering your body that can kill you but also blunt force trauma that can.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_Protection_Levels.shtml

If you need one for the work why skimp on the cost. Do you buy cheap tires for your car when you are planning a long trip? (rhetorical)

MikeNice
June 13, 2011, 02:09 AM
84, I don't think I need the vest. There have been maybe three incidents involving shots fired in the last ten years. The chances that any future event will happen while I am on duty is about 25%.

That means a one in four chance that I will be on duty for something that happens once every forty-two months. Then if you figure in the chances that it will happen on my post or when I am in the area, the odds drop further.

I just don't see buying a vest for something that really is probably a 3% chance of ever happening. Knowing the chances that I will wear it every night, it isn't worth it. The probability that the two events would line up wouldn't be high.

I'll save the money and play the odds. I'm more worried about needing protection against a stab or bite than a bullet.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 02:21 AM
84, I don't think I need the vest. There have been maybe three incidents involving shots fired in the last ten years. The chances that any future event will happen while I am on duty is about 25%.

That means a one in four chance that I will be on duty for something that happens once every forty-two months. Then if you figure in the chances that it will happen on my post or when I am in the area, the odds drop further.

I just don't see buying a vest for something that really is probably a 3% chance of ever happening. Knowing the chances that I will wear it every night, it isn't worth it. The probability that the two events would line up wouldn't be high.

I'll save the money and play the odds. I'm more worried about needing protection against a stab or bite than a bullet.

You'll also save a lot of money if you drop you home owner insurance, even more if you drop your car insurance as well. Don't forget to get rid of any fire extinguishers you have, refilling them can be costly. ;)

If you have a job that only remotely requires a vest, don't sell you family short by risking the odds. The cost of a vest is a lot less than the cost of a hospital stay, even if the organization you work for picks up most of it.

M-Cameron
June 13, 2011, 04:53 AM
Then why even have a gun, you'll probably never need one either? Just think about another Katrina or even another LA Riot taking place some place other than LA. Society may not be as stable as some think.

i dont have guns because i need them.....i have them because i WANT them....

i use a gun for other things besides protection........a gun isnt going to sit in my closet never being used.


and people have been successfully fighting for thousands of years without any kind of body armour what so ever, its funny to think that we all of a sudden need it now.....

if you want armour, thats fine......but its a bit much to say that people are grossly unprepared simply because they dont have it.....

.....heck, im willing to bet theres someone out there who has their own bomb shelter, a private army, 4 years of supplies, and a small army of tanks who thinks that we are all unprepared should there be another katrina incident.




You'll also save a lot of money if you drop you home owner insurance, even more if you drop your car insurance as well. Don't forget to get rid of any fire extinguishers you have, refilling them can be costly.

If you have a job that only remotely requires a vest, don't sell you family short by risking the odds. The cost of a vest is a lot less than the cost of a hospital stay, even if the organization you work for picks up most of it.

i live in an area where floods are extremely unlikely......so am i risking my house if i dont have flood insurance.....well technically yes.......but is that level of risk low enough that it justifies not getting insurance.....also yes........same logic applies to the vest.




__________________

Double Naught Spy
June 13, 2011, 09:16 AM
and people have been successfully fighting for thousands of years without any kind of body armour what so ever, its funny to think that we all of a sudden need it now.....

And people have been successfully losing fights for thousands of years without any kind of body armor. Funny thing is, body armor has been used for thousands of years and it isn't only recently that people think they need it.

Heck, people have been successfully fighting and people have been successfully losing fights for thousands of years before firearms. Do you think it is funny that we all of a sudden think we need them now?

Just because something hasn't been done for a long period of time, as indicated by your claim, does not mean that the item or task isn't valid for use now.

kozak6
June 13, 2011, 09:46 AM
I think it's interesting that so many posters give Katrina as an example of where body armor would be handy.

Body armor is expensive. That's at least several hundred dollars that won't be going towards food, water, gas, a generator, or a ticket to get the hell out before the storm hits.

Violent crime was grossly overrated. And besides, do you have rifle plates? How about a helmet?

Heavy and absorbent body armor also poses some challenges in a flooded city.

M-Cameron
June 13, 2011, 09:59 AM
I think it's interesting that so many posters give Katrina as an example of where body armor would be handy.

Body armor is expensive. That's at least several hundred dollars that won't be going towards food, water, gas, a generator, or a ticket to get the hell out before the storm hits.

Violent crime was grossly overrated. And besides, do you have rifle plates? How about a helmet?

Heavy and absorbent body armor also poses some challenges in a flooded city.

exactly.....in any emergency situation......what is going to be the most useful

$400-600 in food, gas, water, clothing, flashlights, blankets, supplies.....

or

a kevlar vest.


if the situation is really that bad...im loading up the car and getting the heck out of there......you can get pretty far with a few hundred dollars in gas.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 10:06 AM
exactly.....in any emergency situation......what is going to be the most useful

$400-600 in food, gas, water, clothing, flashlights, blankets, supplies.....

or

a kevlar vest.


if the situation is really that bad...im loading up the car and getting the heck out of there......you can get pretty far with a few hundred dollars in gas.

Why not both? By your logic why even have a gun. Just save the money you spend on it and ammo for gas and leave. Just hope you don't meet anyone on the way that wants your car.

Look, there are a lot of reasons for both arguments. I just feel being over prepared is better than being under prepared.

Vern Humphrey
June 13, 2011, 10:10 AM
By your logic why even have a gun?
A gun I can have with me, 24/7.

How many people here wear body armor 24/7?

Remember, if you don't have it on you all the time, when you need it, you won't have it.

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 10:10 AM
I'll never buy any unless my work requires me to carry. I once had a job where I worked on banking and atm telecommunication stuff. I never even considered a vest then and I still wouldn't. The security guard that watched my 6 perhaps should buy one. Sometimes "security guard" was a questionable term, I'd say %25+ of the guys who were contracted were itching for an incident...I swear ghecko45 was my guard a few times. The nights this guy was on duty I felt more comfortable without any guard at all. He was the full on body armor, "they'll never take me alive" type. You never knew who you would get, sometimes it was gecko45. Other times it was Barney Fife. A few times it was a drunken ex Delta guy who never spoke and carried a 1911 Mexican style. Anyway if I were THOSE guys, I would consider it. Me? Never.

If we're talking dollar value, spending that same amount of dough on ammo and/or a training class will benefit you more than body armor.

Aside from that, it is hot and humid down here...adding a pistol and extra ammo is enough added heft.

Carrying a concealed weapon is my right and leaves me with a "back against the wall, no where to go" plan. If I feel that I stand a high enough probability of walking into a 2 way range, I'll switch day jobs or move. But to each his own, it is a free country!

Oh...one more thing...doesn't body armor have an expiration? I'd feel kind of silly spend several hundred bucks to replenish something every few years when all it does is sit in a closet or a bug out bag. I'm cheap, I already feel bad for buying sights that contain vials of radioactive isotopes with a half life sure to expire within my lifetime (and that's only $120).

M-Cameron
June 13, 2011, 10:13 AM
Why not both? By your logic why even have a gun. Just save the money you spend on it and ammo for gas and leave. Just hope you don't meet anyone on the way that wants your car.

Look, there are a lot of reasons for both arguments. I just feel being over prepared is better than being under prepared.

i dont know about you....but i certainty dont, and im willing to bet most people....dont have a spare $600 to spend on something thats going to sit im my closet.


as for someone wanting your stuff.......a bullet proof vest isnt going to stop them from taking it......hell, they may want that too.

that is why you carry a gun.


and honestly, if you are at the point where people are going to try and kill you for your stuff......youve stuck around too long.

Heretic
June 13, 2011, 10:38 AM
Look, Guys, half the guns I own, I own because they're cool, not because they have a practical purpose. I have a IIIa vest because I think it's cool to have one. I didn't spend a lot of money for it,(in fact I traded a giant zippo for it) I also have a surplus plate carrier w. that dangly crotch thing. I don't wear the stuff, and I don't plan to wear the stuff, but isn't there an old saying that goes "better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it"?

84B20
June 13, 2011, 10:39 AM
I'm not saying we should all buy BA, just that in a SHTF situation it is better to have it than not. I wouldn't wear it either unless that arises and I'm also not sure I would have bought it if my work (news photographer during several riots) didn't require it. I did however buy my own Kevlar vest before the paper supplied me with a newer version because I have felt being prepared for disaster after serving during a war and my experiences in LA over the last 40 or so years is the way to go. But that's just me.

ClickClickD'oh
June 13, 2011, 11:40 AM
I've worn level II vests with trauma plate for a living for the last decade in fine Dallas heat... Notice I said vestS, since I'm currently on my third. Human sweat and the nasty stuff that's in it doesn't play well with most things. You just don't notice what it does to your clothes since most people don't wear the same shirt every day and get it completely soaked with sweat. If you did, it would fall apart pretty quickly. Since Dallas is great for sweat production, I retire my vests faster than the suggested rate. I've also got four sets of carriers for it since they get super nasty super fast and I'm not about to do laundry every day. It's not a cheap investment, especially when you factor in other costs like all the various powders, sprays and "miracle" products you are going to try out to keep your skin from falling off in one giant sheet, or to get rid of the rashes and sores you will develop.

If you guys want to know what it's like to wear body armor in the south... get two thick sheets of cardboard and duct tape them to your body front and back. Now, wait for the temperature outside to get to about 110 and go jogging. Yes, yes, it's not always 110 degrees out... but, wearing body armor will raise your core body temperature 10-20 degrees. So, a 90 degree day out means that your torso will be feeling like it's 110. Get a day that's really 110 out and that means your cooking. Yeah, the guys coming back from the sandbox won't be so impressed, but most people on here really never think about that.

The other thing no one ever thinks about until after they try wearing armor... it's a nasty sponge. Wear what ever expensive t-shirt you want, by the end of a shift you are a smelly soggy mess. It's like wearing a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long. And since you are wearing the nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long, you will smell like a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long... even after you've tried every spray and powder on the market and have four different carriers.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 11:50 AM
I've worn level II vests with trauma plate for a living for the last decade in fine Dallas heat... Notice I said vestS, since I'm currently on my third. Human sweat and the nasty stuff that's in it doesn't play well with most things. You just don't notice what it does to your clothes since most people don't wear the same shirt every day and get it completely soaked with sweat. If you did, it would fall apart pretty quickly. Since Dallas is great for sweat production, I retire my vests faster than the suggested rate. I've also got four sets of carriers for it since they get super nasty super fast and I'm not about to do laundry every day. It's not a cheap investment, especially when you factor in other costs like all the various powders, sprays and "miracle" products you are going to try out to keep your skin from falling off in one giant sheet, or to get rid of the rashes and sores you will develop.

If you guys want to know what it's like to wear body armor in the south... get two thick sheets of cardboard and duct tape them to your body front and back. Now, wait for the temperature outside to get to about 110 and go jogging. Yes, yes, it's not always 110 degrees out... but, wearing body armor will raise your core body temperature 10-20 degrees. So, a 90 degree day out means that your torso will be feeling like it's 110. Get a day that's really 110 out and that means your cooking. Yeah, the guys coming back from the sandbox won't be so impressed, but most people on here really never think about that.

The other thing no one ever thinks about until after they try wearing armor... it's a nasty sponge. Wear what ever expensive t-shirt you want, by the end of a shift you are a smelly soggy mess. It's like wearing a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long. And since you are wearing the nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long, you will smell like a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long... even after you've tried every spray and powder on the market and have four different carriers.
I hope you wear the special ribbed T-shirt under the vest. I know all too well the Texas heat and humidity, my wife's family is all from there. I try to visit mostly in the cooler months because of it, too much like Vietnam. :)

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 12:06 PM
The other thing no one ever thinks about until after they try wearing armor... it's a nasty sponge. Wear what ever expensive t-shirt you want, by the end of a shift you are a smelly soggy mess. It's like wearing a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long. And since you are wearing the nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long, you will smell like a nasty sponge that's been sitting in your sink too long... even after you've tried every spray and powder on the market and have four different carriers.

The summer humidity constantly hovering above %75 (often above %90) here in NC makes you sweat disproportionately to the temperature. The thought of what you just said makes me cringe. Yeah, I'll pass on the body armor since an IT job isn't exactly a high risk venture.

SSN Vet
June 13, 2011, 12:39 PM
It's a simple cost benefit analysis.

None of us have exactly the same risk profile.

Most of us don't have infinite resources to blow on "gear".

Me personally? I'll spend my next $1,000 of serious "security gear" money on a home alarm system.

But I'll probably buy a few metal working tools and a toy or two before I make the investment. :)

mokin
June 13, 2011, 12:52 PM
I've gone back and forth on buying some. Presently I don't own any. I don't plan on buying any in the near future.

Shortly after I was released from active duty (ca Desert Shield/Storm) I had armor. I also had a set of ALICE gear, an AR-15, and a 9mm pistol always loaded and ready to go. I felt I was prepared for considerably more than a home invasion.

I recognize the fragilness that our society exists in and the potential of the necessity for such equipment. The folks who say it is better to have it and not need it have a bomb proof point. But, I think there are much better ways to spend the money that would otherwise go to a vest. If you are in a situation where you are forced to stand and slug it out chances are armor wont dramatically improve your odds.

gym
June 13, 2011, 12:54 PM
Having lived through a home invasion, you won't have time to put on your body armor. They don't tell you in advance when they are going to break in. I happens in seconds. You will be lucky to get to your gun, unless you carry one all the time, as I now do. It usually happens when you are coming in or going out. Plus in FL it's so freaking hot, that the body armor may kill you before the bad guys. I think that anyone worried about protection from high powered rifles is being oner dramatic, maybe a shotgun. But unless everyone in the house has a setup like that, or you live alone, a dog and an alarm with cameras, are a better solution. No one wants to be on video.

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 12:55 PM
It's a simple cost benefit analysis.

None of us have exactly the same risk profile.

Most of us don't have infinite resources to blow on "gear".

Good point. Spending that kind of cash is a family getaway for me or money that could be better spent actually shooting with my children.

Aside from that, if I'm buying body armor for SHTF scenario....what kind of father am I if I'm not buying the whole family body armor!! The kids will be pack mules for the ammo, food and meds that I can't carry in such a situation so they will be priority targets. Now we're getting expensive. :neener:

dogtown tom
June 13, 2011, 01:13 PM
Rather than live my life inside body armor with a gun strapped on each ankle, two on my belt and an AK in my left hand with my PGO shotty in my right as I watch TV in my residential bunker..........I would move to someplace safer than downtown Mogadishu.

Seriously.....if your job is high risk or you live in a dangerous area get NEW body armor. The used stuff is a crapshoot and BA does deterioriate over time due to sweat and heat.

The day I feel the need to wear body armor while mowing the yard or on a trip to the grocery store is about the same time you'll see me wrapping aluminum foil around my head to shield me from the CIA satellites.

pockets
June 13, 2011, 01:33 PM
Yup.....+1 to what gym said and what dogtown tom said.

Besides;
1. I have not yet paid-off my armored truck and hardened bunker extension to house it.
2. I learned in the 1950's that a basic 'duck and cover' will save me from anything up to and including a nuclear device. :D

.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 01:54 PM
A lot of these arguments about not having BA sound a lot like the anti's reason why they "don't believe in guns" (my answer to them is: I don't believe in the tooth fairy, which one of our decisions is based in reality) but it just boils down to whether one wants to be prepared for a catastrophic even or not. I have long term storage of food as well as a generator. Will I need it? Hopefully not but the time to get them is when you don’t need them. IMHO

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 02:05 PM
A lot of these arguments about not having BA sound a lot like the anti's reason why they "don't believe in guns" (my answer to them is: I don't believe in the tooth fairy, which one of our decisions is based in reality) but it just boils down to whether one wants to be prepared for a catastrophic even or not. I have long term storage of food as well as a generator. Will I need it? Hopefully not but the time to get them is when you don’t need them. IMHO

There is one HUGE difference. Some of us are saying why we won't buy, wear or store body armor; but we all will agree that you can buy as much body armor as you want. Anti's will tell you that you shouldn't have it because they don't see a need. That's a pretty big difference. :)

84B20
June 13, 2011, 02:21 PM
There is one HUGE difference. Some of us are saying why we won't buy, wear or store body armor; but we all will agree that you can buy as much body armor as you want. Anti's will tell you that you shouldn't have it because they don't see a need. That's a pretty big difference. :)

I didn't say all but the tone of some seem to feel that way. I may be wrong but that's just my imression. Again, I don't advocate everyone should go out and buy some, afterall BA, as stated expires, but I feel since I have BA I feel more prepared for disaster. A lot of the times it is just that feeling that helps maintain a piece of mind.

CHEVELLE427
June 13, 2011, 02:35 PM
shtf
i could see were i should have picked something up.

but for now if a deal came along i would pick it up, did have a dealer try to trade me a vest for a gun once

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 03:23 PM
A lot of the times it is just that feeling that helps maintain a piece of mind.

Exactly, and you are free to act on that. I'm not criticizing anyone' choice, I'm just saying why it doesn't make sense for me. If it gives you piece of minds, go for it. BA stacked in my safe would give absolutely no piece of mind whatsoever, but that's just my little world. :)

My arguments against my purchase of body armor are similar an anti's approach to not owning a gun for self defense...there's a %99.999 I'll never need it. If I'm going to buy it for me, I need to buy it for my whole family. Then we're talking about a substantial investment. I just feel there's a point when I'm taking preparedness to far for my own potential needs and budget.

DAP90
June 13, 2011, 03:48 PM
I feel since I have BA I feel more prepared for disaster.

I can’t think of any real world disaster scenario where I would want to have BA; including out of control rioting. I'd much rather have greater maneuverability and endurance by not carrying the extra weight.

Jesse H
June 13, 2011, 04:20 PM
I voted Kevlar armor only because the city paid for mine. Once I'm done with my shift in the morning and peel it off, I don't want to think about that smelly, uncomfortable, heavy and expensive vest until the following night I go back to work.

I wouldn't buy one on my own dime much less wear it. I definitely wouldn't pay to replace it every 5 years as suggested by the manufacterer.

jobu07
June 13, 2011, 04:29 PM
If you want the burden of buying and storing body armor, along with the burden of purchasing and wearing it, go for it! What a great country we live in.

Been there, done that, have it, store, don't wear it. It's good stuff, but not something I want to wear every day again if I can help it.

CapnMac
June 13, 2011, 04:36 PM
Bunch of items missing in here.
'Really the calculus is quite simple: If you should be wearing a helmet, you probably should be wearing a pro-vest (which kind, at that point, might be a more cogent discussion).

The comment about generators struck a chord, though. I've spent thirty years in the design & construction industry (until our glorious Economy took that all away with Mr Peabody's coal train). One of my pet peeves is with people/organizations which buy a gen set and then never maintain it. They are always surprised when things go south and you can't just push the "easy" button.

That under-clothing pro-vest, or that "flak jacket"/plate carrier in the closet is like an unused genny. It's probably not stored right. It's probably not adjusted right either (human body dimensions cycle daily, weekly, monthly as is, add in age-related metabolic changes). But, as with all other disaster/business recovery plans, if you are not testing the plan out, if you are not exercising the system, it's like a genny with no POL. And, as potentially as dangerous--that "dryer cord" genset hook up is becoming every more illegal, from the risk of energizing downed power lines.

"But, it's so hard; it's too complicated--no body can do that Brother Bluto!" Heard this a time or two. Have to take a deep breath and explain, once again, about how I used to trundle about the ocean in big gray metal boxes. That, when they had a "fire drill" I was expected to be able to go from sound asleep to having my steel-toe boonies on, gloves, flash hood, OBA, and a red helmet on; to then check my berthing area before beating feet to the REP 3 rally point ready to take the muster from the LPO. And, it was preferred that this happen really fast. And 100% of the time. Including socks rolled over trousers and all. And heaven help you if the XO thought any were slacking off.

Humans are capable of some miraculous and marvelous things; quite a few of those requiring some concerted practice. Ok, what I used to do in 90-100 seconds might take 4-5 minutes now--but, I also know where my boonies are and that they fit, too.

It's not merely have-and-not-need; it's have-and-can-use. Do they have battery back-ups for the computers where you work? Have they tested them? Are the internet routers protected too? Tested that? 80% of the time the answer is no.

Dang it, I'm going to go check my fire extinguishers now . . .

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 05:20 PM
The comment about generators struck a chord, though. I've spent thirty years in the design & construction industry (until our glorious Economy took that all away with Mr Peabody's coal train). One of my pet peeves is with people/organizations which buy a gen set and then never maintain it. They are always surprised when things go south and you can't just push the "easy" button.

Amen, brother!

I work in IT and much of my job revolves around disaster preparation and disaster recovery.

...everything from local crashes to "OMG the building is gone!?!?!"

When it comes to disaster preparedness, people tend to view you in one of two ways:


You are a incompetent buffoon for not seeing some obscure problem happening (usually what happened was a budget getting sliced, in which case document your objections tto cover your rear when the SHTF.
Disaster strikes and everything goes smooth. You are still an incompetent buffoon because you wasted money on contingency plans for unlikely events.

You'd think that after dealing with all of that daily, I'd have some crazy setups at my house consisting of a small armory, massive generators and body armor. No, I don't. I have just enough generator to run the water pump, interior ligthing, exterior lighting and freezers. A small safe, a small pile of ammo (1000 or so rounds per caliber) and no body armor or night vision. I do have quite a few cases of bottled water on hand and I get strange looks over that more often than anything...but I work out often, drink massive amounts of water and I hate to run out. I've tried filtration systems in the past at other houses (ground water), but I was never happy with the end result.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 08:33 PM
Talk about preparation. I do have a dedicated carrier for my vest, one that is made for it by the manufacturer. And my generator is tested regularly. I have enough gas stored properly to run it for a month. If needed it can be hooked up to my electrician installed manual transfer switch in about 10 minutes. It will run all of my refrigerators and freezer incliding my well plus my server that also has a tested UPS as well as all of my critical outlets in the house. I have more but enough said. :neener:

Grey Morel
June 13, 2011, 08:36 PM
I don't know about you guys, but when something goes "bump" in the night I am either...

A) Lounging in a recliner watching TV in my den

B) In bed sleeping or attempting to sleep.

I fail to see how a vest in my closet will help me in either situation. While I do keep my house gun (S&W 6" 629, 44mag) either in the drawer of my night stand, or on the end table next to my recliner, There is just no way I would ware armor about my home.

In situation 'A', I would have to move across the length of my house to retrieve said armor, thus likely arriving too late to scare off the vermin raiding my trash cans, OR possibly encountering any intruder in one of the more exposed rooms I would have to pass though. Useless.

In Situation 'B' I would have to stumble out of bed, stagger over to the closet, put on the armor, and then move to most advantageous position... which is the bed I would have just gotten out of. Useless.

This is reality. If I'm in my chair and I hear a strange noise, I'm just going to take the revolver in my hand and move it to 'low ready' in the direction of the door. If I am in bed with my wife, and we hear a suspicious noise, then I'm going to retrieve the gun within my arms reach, and point it at the locked door adjacent.

In neither situation would it be advantageous for me to try to 'suit up' and engage the perceived enemy.

84B20
June 13, 2011, 08:44 PM
As most posts indicate, BA is not for every day home use, just for SHTF scenarios at least for me. I don't even keep it in my house. It is stored in another building on my property but I can get to it if needed.

ForumSurfer
June 13, 2011, 08:59 PM
Talk about preparation. I do have a dedicated carrier for my vest, one that is made for it by the manufacturer. And my generator is tested regularly. I have enough gas stored properly to run it for a month. If needed it can be hooked up to my electrician installed manual transfer switch in about 10 minutes. It will run all of my refrigerators and freezer incliding my well plus my server that also has a tested UPS as well as all of my critical outlets in the house. I have more but enough said.

You see 84B20, I think that is just it. I spend all day ensuring my systems are bullet proof. Phones, network, servers or whatever since I'm on a networking team. My power and UPS's are redundant, my backup generators are redundant, the network is designed so that there aren't any single points of failure, seamless failovers for equipment, seamless failovers of ISP's and heck even building failovers. You'd think a guy like me would have wicked cool systems at home, but no. Just the bare necessities. Enough generator to keep the essentials going for a couple of weeks (assuming I have enough as stored) and no electronic junk up and running save battery powered devices. I like to keep it as simple and spartan as possible. Once my kids are off and I'm retired, my dream would be to live in Alaska and survive on a woodburning stove in cabin in the middle of the wilderness where it is eat or be eaten...and never hear the terms "redundant" or "disaster preparedness" again. :)

84B20
June 13, 2011, 09:19 PM
You see 84B20, I think that is just it. I spend all day ensuring my systems are bullet proof. Phones, network, servers or whatever since I'm on a networking team. My power and UPS's are redundant, my backup generators are redundant, the network is designed so that there aren't any single points of failure, seamless failovers for equipment, seamless failovers of ISP's and heck even building failovers. You'd think a guy like me would have wicked cool systems at home, but no. Just the bare necessities. Enough generator to keep the essentials going for a couple of weeks (assuming I have enough as stored) and no electronic junk up and running save battery powered devices. I like to keep it as simple and spartan as possible. Once my kids are off and I'm retired, my dream would be to live in Alaska and survive on a woodburning stove in cabin in the middle of the wilderness where it is eat or be eaten...and never hear the terms "redundant" or "disaster preparedness" again. :)

I am retired IT so I know from where you speak. When I worked I was network/desktop support but not in charge. When I retired I did set up my system with backups and redundancy but only in a somewhat limited fashion. Just enough to get by. Since I have no kids and live in the country already and away from people I already am in that position. :D

ChCx2744
June 14, 2011, 03:50 AM
Hugs your chest so tight you get winded twice as fast, in hot weather it makes you sweat a lot more, it begins to stink really bad after a while (You LE and military folks know exactly what I'm talking about, I have to use the old freezer trick like twice a month), it begins to warp into weird shapes after a while...But besides all that, vests do have their place. I'm a firm believer that vest is not a big "S" on your chest and your death is still very possible with a vest on. Besides going out and putting your life at the mercy of a vest, advanced firearm training courses are a better investment. I would much rather be able to move and shoot properly, hide properly, use cover/concealment properly, disarm/fight properly than be able to afford expensive armor and get shot.

1858
June 14, 2011, 06:15 AM
I have a Releasable Body Armor Vest (RBAV) with soft and hard plates front and back but only because I was given it by a project manager at the end of a project in which we were testing MBAVs and RBAVs. I very much doubt that I would have bought one for myself. Kind of nice to have though.

http://nsrdec.natick.army.mil/media/fact/individual/SPEAR_RBAV.htm

mgmorden
June 14, 2011, 12:55 PM
Because you can never be too careful at the office, the bullet-proof clipboard:

http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/supplies/e769/

:)

gunsablazin
June 14, 2011, 06:54 PM
I have a NATO kevlar helmet that I bought at an army surplus stores going out of business sale. It was reduced from $100 to $45, at that price I thought it was a cool item to own, never actually used the thing. A friend of mine who works for the sheriffs dept. gave me a vest he wore as a rookie, other than to try it on I've never used it either. It's neat stuff to have, and is potentially useful, but as a printing press "operator" I'll hopefully never need it.:p

84B20
June 14, 2011, 07:16 PM
I have a NATO kevlar helmet that I bought at an army surplus stores going out of business sale. It was reduced from $100 to $45, at that price I thought it was a cool item to own, never actually used the thing. A friend of mine who works for the sheriffs dept. gave me a vest he wore as a rookie, other than to try it on I've never used it either. It's neat stuff to have, and is potentially useful, but as a printing press "operator" I'll hopefully never need it.:p

In case you missed some of the above posts, I'll repeat. If it is a Kevlar vest and it is older than 5 years don't count on it protecting you, especially if it has been worn by another person.

altitude_19
June 15, 2011, 06:39 PM
In case you missed some of the above posts, I'll repeat. If it is a Kevlar vest and it is older than 5 years don't count on it protecting you, especially if it has been worn by another person.
There is no "half-life" chemical process at work in kevlar so far as I am aware of. Body armor that has never been worn and stored under the right circumstances retains it's ballistic qualities indefinitely (not infinitely, but indefinitely). I'm not sayin you ought to trust your life to just anything, but the 5 year rule is NOT carved in stone. Think of it like your oil changes. Some say 3000 miles, but not all oils are subject to the same abuse and therefor break down at different rates.

Double Naught Spy
June 15, 2011, 07:13 PM
In case you missed some of the above posts, I'll repeat. If it is a Kevlar vest and it is older than 5 years don't count on it protecting you, especially if it has been worn by another person.

There is no "half-life" chemical process at work in kevlar so far as I am aware of. Body armor that has never been worn and stored under the right circumstances retains it's ballistic qualities indefinitely (not infinitely, but indefinitely). I'm not sayin you ought to trust your life to just anything, but the 5 year rule is NOT carved in stone.

No, the 5 year life is not carved in stone, but is when the manufacturer's warranty runs out, or used to be on the first two vests I had. For a while, I bought a bunch of vest panels on ebay for testing, usually not sets, but individual panels as they were often cheaper when not a set, but some sets as well. I used panels as old at 18 years and never had one fail to stop a round for which it was rated. I also found that such panels often still majorly exceeded their rated perforance. NIJ only has panels survive a few shots in a limited space to meet their certification. We found vests often still stopped up to 30-40 rounds with penetration so long as the rounds did not impact on the channels of previous rounds or impact the very edge areas (which are problematic in new vests as well).

Old vests may not be fully up to their origiinal standards, but if in decent shape, they will still perform very well, certainly better than not wearing them.

gym
June 17, 2011, 12:27 AM
If I tried to put one more thing in my bedroom closet, my wife would shoot me. I pass on the vest. I can''t sleep in it so it's not going to do me any good in an emergency. Also with a bad back, they are just too heavy and hard to put on. Especially if someone is breaking in your door or window. It hit 99 today, so the amount of time you could really keep one of those on in this heat is not too long, with no AC. If there was a power outage, it would cost you a fortuune in water to be able to wear one and get anything done. Too many other things to cary. Maybe a portable ground terrestial radar system that could warn you of any moving critter within a given distance, with a switch for sensitivity. Or a motion detector set in a few key spots near the house with a couple of cameras. I would rather go to high ground and let them come on in.
Bullett proof glass is probablly a better idea for the home at night. just on the area where you sleep, and the bedroom door. A high security bullet proof door. If you are buying or building it's a good idea to take that into consideration first.

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