AR Accuracy with Lake City M193


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Ohio Gun Guy
June 12, 2011, 10:26 AM
I recently completed my First AR build. It is S&W MP15 lower with a 20" SS Bull barrel, 1:8, (ER Shaw Barrel) wylde chamber. (Bushnell 24 power 40mm scope). I dont have a target trigger in it YET.

I am working on getting set up to hand load, but for now I am shooting 5.56x45 M193 / 55 grain ammunition.

I have taken this to the range now 2 times after getting the rifle sighted in. My best groups are right at 1-1/4" (5 shots at 100yds). Either I or the gun have a quirk where 3 of the five shots will be touching, the other 2 will be touching but 3/4" away from 3 shot group, hence the 1-1/4" groups. I admit I am rusty, most of my other rifles are mil-surps and between the ammo and rifle typically shoot anywhere between 2"-4" at 100 yards. I am shooting from the bi-pod on the floated hand guard, with a rear sand bag rest, typically from the prone position.

The Questions:
1. What is the best group you have gotten using M193 ammo?
2. How do I better test my set up...?
3. Am I doing about as well as possible with the standard trigger and surplus ammo? (Was really wanting to break the 1 MOA barrier)


P.S. - I see why these are addicting. I'm having more fun whith this rifle than I have had in quite a while....:D It's still fun to pack the WASR and blast dirt clods on the backstop while waiting for the break to go check targets

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Ramone
June 12, 2011, 11:01 AM
I haven't shot M193 since my uncle was giving it to me free, but I do use XM855 (62gr) as my plinking ammo.

I'd say that you are doing damn well. When I see that sort of grouping, I assume it's me- one flyer I'll put on the ammo, two touching flyers seems to me like I was doing something.

Here's some reference targets- all the same day, same rifle at 100 yards. The rifle is an M4gery, 16 in 1:8 barrel, optics are an NCstar 4X32. Shooter is a 48 year Old former Marine
Weather conditions were Optimal (77f, 46% humidity, <5 knots of wind at 6 oclock)
Positon was Prone, with sling.

XM855
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JegL93mxHsE/TP1OFcUYxRI/AAAAAAAAF_Y/ZWGNzSAVNbQ/s400/5.56_xm855.jpg

Black Hills 69gr SMK (reman)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eVN5b5Hyg5s/TP1OEcWIlWI/AAAAAAAAF_U/Ex8X3Z088GY/s400/5.56_BH69SMKa.jpg

Hand Loads with 50gr Barnes Varmit Grenades:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CttgE0jbsSM/TP1ODbT8EYI/AAAAAAAAF_Q/WH6jt_geNJw/s400/5.56_0105a.jpg

Note the grouping in that last- those two 'flyers' have got to be me.

TonyAngel
June 12, 2011, 08:13 PM
M193 is trash from an accuracy perspective. If you're getting 1.25" at 100 yards with it, you're doing better than most. I've usually seen something between 2 and 4" at 100 yards being the norm.

ripp
June 12, 2011, 08:20 PM
with no trigger job? you are shooting right at the limits of the gun and ammo. With a trigger job and match ammo, you'd still be doing just great, given a military style autoloader. Sure, some will do much better, but a lot of shooters can't demo much better.

1stmarine
June 12, 2011, 09:07 PM
Federal Lake City M193 (LC Brass) is pretty consistent loaded to NATO standards. Not stamped as nato though but pretty much the same. I would say cleaner than some of the Asian and European counterparts. The one with the Federal brass (FC brass) is less consistent.

This is some of the data I have:
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average Speed: 3,156
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average group: 0.90 MOA

XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average Speed: 3,162
XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average group: 0.85 MOA

XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average Speed: 3,228
XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average group: 0.70 MOA

NCsmitty
June 12, 2011, 09:29 PM
M193 and M855 are not exactly match ammo, but do ok for plinking. The open base FMJ bullets will never show the true potential of your rifle for group size, but you're doing well regardless.
If you have to shoot factory, try some Hornady V-max or Federal match, and put a smile on your face. You should halve your group size with quality bullets.



NCsmitty

1stmarine
June 12, 2011, 10:00 PM
Agree, no match ammo but group way below military standards. In iraq they sent a Geneva convention commission to investigate if troops were assassinating insurgents since there were so many head shots.

The National Match I posted before does .30MOA and sometimes better with Hornady match and Varget Handloads.
Do not expect this in the average M4 though.

Ohio Gun Guy
June 12, 2011, 10:12 PM
Well I feel better, I'll have to keep my eye out for some of the ammunition suggested....or hurry up and start reloading!

Thanks!

1stmarine
June 12, 2011, 10:46 PM
Try some Priv partizan and some PMC 5.56 and see your system likes it.
I try everything (no russian puffins though) and also reload.

The most accurate ARs I have are National Match, a Varmint and a 6x45 that is printing below .25MOA all day.

But the M4's and 16" midlenght printing below MOA is pretty darn good I would say for a military type carbine. No match by today's standards but super accurate nonetheless.

Cheers.
E.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 13, 2011, 10:52 AM
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average group: 0.90 MOA

You are getting sub-MOA performance from XM193 on average from a standard Delton midlength barrel? How many shots are in those groups and at what distance?

I've got a Lilja stainless steel match barrel and the best 10-shot groups I've managed with Federal XM193 are in the 2-2.5" range, with 3" being more common. I can shoot match ammo into sub-MOA 5-shot groups at 100yds, so I'd love to learn how to shoot a sub-MOA group with Federak XM193. That would sure save the ammo budget.

jon86
June 13, 2011, 12:07 PM
I've usually seen something between 2 and 4" at 100 yards being the norm.

O man thanks I feel much better. I'm using a stock carbine with irons and the best I can do is about 5" at 125 yards.

Next step, new trigger, match sights, and match ammo. Life's a project. Gotta save my pennies.

1stmarine
June 13, 2011, 11:35 PM
When I was in the service I had to qualify with 193 ammo and iron sights at 500 yards and it worked as well as it does today.

Before anything is decided here try several types of good ammo known to people.
My groups are always no less than 5 shots and no more than 10 depending on the day. Sometimes I do 3 groups of rapid fire with hunting handloads but not with this upper or ammo. Accuracy testing for any loads is normally done in relatively calm days, no rain, extreme heat or extreme cold.
Spreads are measured with RCBS Ammo-master chrono set up.
Accuracy tests are done at 100 yards otherwise indicated.
The Delton is a heavy profile 16" 1:9 Mid-length port barrel non-chromed (more accurate) direct impingement with Midwest Industries floating rail and Peak Tactical custom brake. M16 bolt and carrier. Scope is a 2-7 Burris timberline with 1.7 Sight Ht.

The results of a bad test might not mean anything wrong, simply one might need to check other factors.

Anything above above .5MOA is not considered match grade by today's standards where many off the shelve AR rifles come with a 1MOA and less guarantee tag and high end AR SPRs come with the .5MOA and less guarantee.

Cheers.
E.

dldbrandon
June 13, 2011, 11:56 PM
Do you have a news article some other link about the geneva commission investigations? I believe you I would just like to read more about it.

1stmarine
June 14, 2011, 12:18 AM
Oh boy! I read it in the news several years ago and saw in several posts. I don't think that it was a full blown investigation but they put an inquiry because they were finding many folks with the brains blown out until they figured the marines with the ACOGs where popping the insurgets like crazy.
Let me see if I can find it. Also Google it you might find it before I do.

jungle
June 14, 2011, 12:27 AM
YMMV by lot and specific weapon, but here are the standards.
----------------------------------------------------------------


"U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55
grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20
inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement
from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200
yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA).
"Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius,
which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity from an M16 rifle or
pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through
the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at
ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition is suitable for use in 1 twist
in 12 inches or faster twists. While commercial sporting rifles in this
caliber usually have one in 14 rifling, the M193 boat tailed bullet is
barely stabilized with that rate of twist at ambient temperatures, and will
not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing.

"NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain
(q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps
(q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical
velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy
requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four
MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an
M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge
SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623
yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400
yards, and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO
rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more.

1stmarine
June 14, 2011, 01:04 AM
One of these guys mention the same story towards the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdZ6WLrEnA

TonyAngel
June 14, 2011, 02:12 AM
This is some of the data I have:
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average Speed: 3,156
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average group: 0.90 MOA

XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average Speed: 3,162
XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average group: 0.85 MOA

XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average Speed: 3,228
XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average group: 0.70 MOA

1stMarine, I understand from your posts that you have extensive experience in the military and with the AR platform, but something inside of me is making me want to call BS on the above claims. I'm not trying to engage in an argument, but the OP asked a bonafide question and I feel that your information is misleading.

First, I believe that your claims of velocity obtained with the M193 ammo from a 16" barrel is rather optimistic by maybe a couple hundred feet per second. Secondly, and this is no claim that I've seen it all, but I've never seen any rifle shoot sub MOA with any sort of consistency with M193. I've seen flukes, but no two or three five shot groups in a row. If your claims of accuracy are true, there are thousands of guys across the country wasting their money on the likes of Krieger, Pac Nor and Lilja to get barrels that will consistently shoot sub MOA. They are also wasting countless hours loading premium projectiles for ammunition that will allow their expensive barrels to really shine.

Of course, I could be wrong and you could very well have three, off the shelf rifles that can shoot crap ammunition with sub MOA accuracy. If this is the case, I'd suggest that you hang on to them, because they certainly aren't representative of what is the norm.

Personally, I've put blood, sweat and tears into a few of my AR builds just so that I can say that I built an AR that will shoot sub MOA all of the time (provided that I'm up to the task). I've also spent a butt load of time working up loads for those rifle and a lot of money feeding them.

Like I said, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just don't want the OP sitting there and wondering why his AR won't give him sub MOA groups with milspec ammo.

1858
June 14, 2011, 02:34 AM
1stmarine,
I also have a hard time believing your "average" group size numbers using XM193.

Here's what I typically get with 10-shot groups at 100 yards shooting XM193 out of a 16" gas piston AR using a 1.5-5X scope set on 5X and shooting off a bipod. The smaller squares are 2" x 2". This is acceptable accuracy and good enough for home defense or 2-gun matches. If I want better, I shoot 77gr SMK reloads that will produce 10-shot groups that are easily under 1 MOA at 100 yards.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/rifles/pof/p415/photos/pof_p415_02.jpg

madcratebuilder
June 14, 2011, 08:21 AM
You are getting sub-MOA performance from XM193 on average from a standard Delton midlength barrel? How many shots are in those groups and at what distance?

I've got a Lilja stainless steel match barrel and the best 10-shot groups I've managed with Federal XM193 are in the 2-2.5" range, with 3" being more common. I can shoot match ammo into sub-MOA 5-shot groups at 100yds, so I'd love to learn how to shoot a sub-MOA group with Federak XM193. That would sure save the ammo budget.


2 or more moa is what I see from 193 with 16" and 20" 1/9 twist rifles. I may see a random group under that but it's not repeatable. A 30rd mag generally makes a 3" hole in paper.

sansone
June 14, 2011, 10:02 AM
for the OP..
the moa barrier is accurately described.
I get frustrated with my shooting buddy sometimes because I struggle to get sub moa groups from my pet boltie.
If your AR is shooting 193 ammo @ 1.5 then you and your rifle are doing GREAT.
don't delay your reloading intentions, it adds a whole new dimension to shooting pleasure

jackpinesavages
June 14, 2011, 10:50 PM
Try the SS109 and/or the M855. I personally prefer 62-75 gr stuff.

1stmarine
June 14, 2011, 10:55 PM
I went to my files and posted the info that I have measured from my spreads that I store with lots of work and patience. These are not the standard AR's. They are more accurate than the average AR and obviously the barrels love these loads.
I do not consider this match loads but they are good very CONSISTENT loads.
Handloads with Match barrels are below 1/3MOA and better. I use lothar walter and Shilen barrels with wylde camber. Also have one RRA barrel with the wylde chamber as well.

Other AR's I have that do very well with other loads do not like these so much but even the keltec SU-16 that I do shoot occasionally none of them prints above 2MOA anyway with that specific LC ammo. I would say they all are in the 1.5 MOA area.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing for the OP.
Federal XM193AF
Ball M193 55gr MC-BT
10RD clips
LCAAP Rifle
These come in one case of 900 rounds in cases of 3x10clips ready to push in the magazine. I buy around 10 cases/year at discount for $270/case at a distribution center with discount for LE/Mil/Vet personal.
The ones I have been shooting are LC09 and LC10 stamped. Lot# is not printed in the case for whatever reason.

To be fair to the OP he should expect 1.5 ( no more than 2MOA ) that I would say is very good for a good AR with a ML or M4 std barrel chrome lined 1:7 rate.

I would also try Hornady TAP, Corbon 62gr DPX, and Barnes TSX 70gr for hunting white tail, hogs and black bear if hunting is in the menu.

But if you handload then only the sky is the limit in the .224 bullet department.

Cheers,
E.

Sam Cade
June 14, 2011, 11:03 PM
Ive never had XM193 go into better than 1.5" groups at 100,

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

Federal claims:
3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00" mean radius maximum average at 200 yards

1stmarine
June 14, 2011, 11:11 PM
Look I will try to dig out some targets from the folders for these systems but in the mean time read this link a friend sent me almost 2 years ago about another of his friends that was helping with this testing.

See the average spread info they were getting. Something tells me you might be using another ammo as you are not getting these spreads.

Also a couple of the example targets they posted (on zero) are from the
XM193 below MOA. Of course they have their systems strapped to the bench.

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?66619-Top-Tier-AR15-Accuracy-Challenge

Also I forgot to tell you guys the brake systems I developed are designed by me in a joined effort with Peak Tactical and they HELP A LOT with any platform. Stay away from fancy muzzle devices that can screw up your systems' potential accuracy.

taliv
June 14, 2011, 11:19 PM
1stmarine, what part of the country are you in? I'd like to come watch you shoot some of these groups.

I can't say that i shoot m193 for groups much, but when sighting in a rifle, i can't recall it ever being sub-MOA

nipprdog
June 14, 2011, 11:29 PM
Ive never had XM193 go into better than 1.5" groups at 100,


Same here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/nippr/web/DSCN3437w.jpg

Older BM, standard HG, PA 1x4 scope.

1stmarine
June 14, 2011, 11:34 PM
I would say not bad for standard bushmaster.

Chrome lined & Rate of twist?
Atmospherics?
How are you shooting, fast, slow. Bench, prone, etc??

Bartholomew Roberts
June 15, 2011, 10:15 AM
Also a couple of the example targets they posted (on zero) are from the
XM193 below MOA. Of course they have their systems strapped to the bench.

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?66619-Top-Tier-AR15-Accuracy-Challenge

According to that webpage:

"Initial sighting and zero was accomplished with Federal XM193 ammunition.
Final target sighting was accomplished with Black Hills reloaded .223 ammunition."

So that doesn't appear to be Federal XM193 in those targets.

1stmarine
June 15, 2011, 07:32 PM
The friend that sent me the link told me the guys used a couple of he sample targets that were from the baseline.

Before we talk about the targets you were concerned about the speed I was getting. I am also concern you might not be using the same ammo.
Can you confirm is the same ammo we are talking about? ...otherwise something is wrong. I do not understand why anyone with a 16" Barrel should be getting anything very different. As I already mentioned the spreads I measure with an RCBS ammo master that has been a very reliable Chrono. More accurate than another Chrony brand I have.

I save most of my targets and keep a code in my files for future reference so this week I will go to some big folders I keep in my basement and try to find the targets for these loads and dates, make pictures and post them here. Also if you have any questions about the AR's setup let me know. If you are not interested let me know. Last thing I want is arguments about your load vs. mine, your AR vs mine and you accuracy vs. mine and all the non sense that we see everywhere that leads nowhere and nobody really learns anything.

So what you called BS lets clear that one out in good faith. Lets start with the speed. Go and look for other references.

Thanks.

1stmarine
June 16, 2011, 11:17 PM
Bartholomew,
Did you check the speed to make sure we are in the same page? No BS there right?

buttrap
June 17, 2011, 12:44 AM
I never can get past 1.5-1.75 at 100yds with the stuff myself.

nipprdog
June 17, 2011, 06:54 AM
I would say not bad for standard bushmaster.

Chrome lined & Rate of twist?
Atmospherics?
How are you shooting, fast, slow. Bench, prone, etc??

Chrome lined 1/9.
Wind 10-15
Fast, bench.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 17, 2011, 08:53 AM
Bartholomew,
Did you check the speed to make sure we are in the same page? No BS there right?

You've got me confused with someone else who replied as I never raised any issue with the speed. I am just surprised at the accuracy you report as that is way, way, better than I've ever seen Federal XM193 shoot from any barrel.

TonyAngel
June 17, 2011, 04:24 PM
uh, that might be me he's talking too. I called "BS" on his claims of both velocity and accuracy with the M193 ammunition out of an 16" barrel, although I don't have as much of a problem with the velocity claim and I do with the accuracy claim.

I mean, M193 is spec'd to give ~3200 fps out of a 20" barrel, right? How can you get the same velocity out of a 16" barrel. I'm thinking that you're having a problem with your chrony.

Sam Cade
June 17, 2011, 04:31 PM
I'm thinking that you're having a problem with your chrony.

Calipers might be a little off too. :D

jackpinesavages
June 17, 2011, 05:14 PM
One thing I've learned from 30 years of shooting and racing motorcycles: there's ALWAYS somebody faster, better, or more accurate. Listen to what he has to say and you might learn something.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 17, 2011, 06:49 PM
One thing I've learned from 30 years of shooting and racing motorcycles: there's ALWAYS somebody faster, better, or more accurate.

If anybody can show me how to make XM193 shoot sub-MOA out of the barrels mentioned, I am definitely interested in learning how that works. However, I am having a hard time figuring out how that works since M193, which is also produced by Federal, is 3-4 MOA ammo out of an Army test fixture.

1stmarine
June 18, 2011, 01:25 AM
A) A good speed out of a 16" should be in the 3,156 ~ 3,162 fps otherwise
you are not shooting the same ammo or YOUR chrono is broken, not mine.

B) A match grade accurate AR should give you below MOA and a good std.
AR should not give you a lot more just above MOA ...1.2MOA max.

There is nothing broken chrono or math or anything here, everything is done by the book. Use this, or don't use this, whatever you want to do.
I don't invest more time in explaining anything if nobody is interested. do whatever you want.

notasfancy
June 18, 2011, 02:12 AM
Marine
your data is accurate. Leave the kids alone.
Keep shooting straight and don't piss against the wind.

Sam Cade
June 18, 2011, 02:22 AM
However, I am having a hard time figuring out how that works since M193, which is also produced by Federal, is 3-4 MOA ammo out of an Army test fixture.

I really want to know this too since it would save me a fortune.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 18, 2011, 09:16 AM
B) A match grade accurate AR should give you below MOA and a good std. AR should not give you a lot more just above MOA ...1.2MOA max.

Well, I've got a Lilja stainless match barrel. It will shoot Hornady and Black Hills sub-moa; but I've never been able to shoot a sub-moa 5 round group of Federal XM193 out of it. And out of a regular barrel, 1.5 MOA would be an exceptional 5 round group.

Since I can shoot some types of ammo sub-MOA, I know I have the skill level necessary to shoot sub-MOA, so I do not understand why I have never seen that kind of performance out of XM193 if the ammo is capable of it. And in this military study evaluating the accuracy of M193 (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0772939) the best group they saw was 3.2 MOA, so I don't understand why new factory ammo would show more than twice the extreme spread of rejected components of that same ammo reassembled on the same machines.

And I think we are all interested in learning more from you. I know I would love to learn how that works and how you are having such success with M193.

jackpinesavages
June 18, 2011, 09:40 AM
Since I can shoot some types of ammo sub-MOA, I know I have the skill level necessary to shoot sub-MOA, so I do not understand why I have never seen that kind of performance out of XM193. And in this military study evaluating the accuracy of M193 the best group they saw was 3.2 MOA, so I don't understand why new factory ammo would show more than twice the extreme spread of rejected components of that same ammo reassembled on the same machines.



First, you will have to be more open to some new things. That RIA study you are referring to is going on 40 years old. I'm not sure WHY you are referring to data and research that is almost 40 years old, particularly a government study, but just barrel metallurgy and ammo. components alone have changed significantly since then. If you would like to restrict your shooting accuracy to those data, that has been your DECISION.


Second, match your variables to 1stmarine's stated variables.

Third, vaguely related to #1, if you believe you wil never shoot 193s sub MOA you NEVER will. Coaching by 1stmarine will not help.

Fourth, I mean these things in the nicest possible manner. In firearms training the biggest hurdles and limitations I see with students is themselves, and not the firearms or the ammo.. YMMV.

1stmarine
June 18, 2011, 11:26 AM
Lets try something constructive...


1stMarine, I understand from your posts that you have extensive experience in the military and with the AR platform, but something inside of me is making me want to call BS on the above claims. I'm not trying to engage in an argument, but the OP asked a bonafide question and I feel that your information is misleading.

First, I believe that your claims of velocity obtained with the M193 ammo from a 16" barrel is rather optimistic by maybe a couple hundred feet per second.


As an example the velocity is obtained from 16" barrels is: 3,156 ~ 3,162 fps.
The speed spreads are measured using at RCBS ammo master chrono. I have a chorny too but I use the RCBS as it has been more accurate on average. Ocasionally we shoot same ammo through several chronos including some pretty sophisticated setups some bench rests shooters use at one of the clubs we shoot to make sure THEY ARE TRUE and stay TRUE measures. This is paramount to build ballistics charts for long range shooting. W/o accurate speeds you got nothing. 16" ARs is not in the menu but I also like to document what factory ammo can do and share with folks for their knowledge.

Since I got no reply on this subject I have to assume the person doing the testing is: A) using another ammo by mistake. B) His/her chrono is not working properly. C) Made other mistake.


Secondly, and this is no claim that I've seen it all, but I've never seen any rifle shoot sub MOA with any sort of consistency with M193. I've seen flukes, but no two or three five shot groups in a row. If your claims of accuracy are true, there are thousands of guys across the country wasting their money on the likes of Krieger, Pac Nor and Lilja to get barrels that will consistently shoot sub MOA. They are also wasting countless hours loading premium projectiles for ammunition that will allow their expensive barrels to really shine.

Of course, I could be wrong and you could very well have three, off the shelf rifles that can shoot crap ammunition with sub MOA accuracy. If this is the case, I'd suggest that you hang on to them, because they certainly aren't representative of what is the norm.

Personally, I've put blood, sweat and tears into a few of my AR builds just so that I can say that I built an AR that will shoot sub MOA all of the time (provided that I'm up to the task). I've also spent a butt load of time working up loads for those rifle and a lot of money feeding them.

Like I said, I'm not trying to start an argument, I just don't want the OP sitting there and wondering why his AR won't give him sub MOA groups with milspec ammo.



Accuracy:
Regarding accuracy and among many other things, there are a few facts that are very important to know:

A) AR Match barrels are extremely accurate many times going mano a mano with the best bolt systems.

B) A match barrel is not guarantee of extreme accuracy with a particular load, commercial or not. What we commonly hear as "my barrel doesn't like this load".

C) Heavy barrels in 16" are also extremely accurate, even "low-tier" systems (Whatever that means). All other things being equal, a short barrel is more accurate than a long one. You loose a tad speed but that is a different subject. This doesn't mean a long barrel can be more accurate than a short one with a specific load. Many times they are but what I mean is a simple matter of physics.

D) Non-chrome barrels are more accurate than chromed ones.

E) A good bench rest setup to test the carbine's accuracy potential (not the shooter's ability) is paramount.

F) Federal XM193 LC brass is a good consistent, clean burning load ideal for a 5.56 or wylde chamber. It is an affordable good load but not a match load. Match load accuracy potential starts below 1/2MOA by today standards.


I keep good track of all my loads in excel (mostly match stuff) but I also have lots of data of commercial load testing.
I keep most of my targets, specially anything I measure for accuracy, but I have dozens of folders accumulated in the basement.
If anyone is interested I will find targets for this load and I will post them here. I welcome anyone to join a Saturday afternoon to do some shooting and discussion with anything I have. Same I have been doing for 20+ years after I retired from the service. Send me a PM to see if you are close by if you are interested.

Cheers.
E.

Hobie
June 18, 2011, 04:38 PM
In all the years I ran ranges we seldom saw an M16A1 that couldn't shoot 2 MOA (many would do better even with only that old 3X Colt scope mounted on the carry handle) and if one shot 4 MOA we knew there was something wrong with it. We HAD to use M193 with the M16A2s when they were issued to us. Those guns came from the 82nd and still, they would do 2.5 MOA or better. The truth is that a gun that shoots 2-3 MOA is very usable. It isn't a match gun but if that is what you want, spend the money and build one!

Bartholomew Roberts
June 18, 2011, 05:57 PM
First, you will have to be more open to some new things.

I am open to new things. After all, I am here listening to you and 1stmarine tell me that it is possible to shoot XM193 sub-MOA at 100yds, even though I've been shooting AR15s and M16s for over 20 years now and have never accomplished or even seen that feat performed with anything more than a 3-round group.

That RIA study you are referring to is going on 40 years old. I'm not sure WHY you are referring to data and research that is almost 40 years old, particularly a government study, but just barrel metallurgy and ammo.

Yes, it is 40 years old because the accuracy standard for M193 was established as part of MIL-C-9963F in 1976 and hasn't changed since then. In fact, MIL-C-9963 hasn't been amended since 1999 when the accuracy standard was the same as 1976 - an average mean radius of 2.0" at 200yds, which would give an extreme spread much higher than what 1stmarine reports. And that is from a test firing fixture - which pretty much eliminates all human error.

Federal XM193 is an M193 clone manufactured from the same components as M193 and in the same plant in many cases. So it should be very similar to M193.

However, since the results of that test are pretty much inline with every accuracy test of M193 (or M193 clone) ammo I have ever seen, there are plenty of more recent examples if you would like to see them. Here is an excellent test of M193 clones by Molon at AR15.com (http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=511804) (as a bonus it has a picture of a test firing fixture so you can see what that looks like). He used a 16" Colt HBAR. The best performing M193 clone load had an average extreme spread for 10 rounds at 100yds of 2.79" - which according to 1stmarine is almost twice what he should expect from that barrel.

Second, match your variables to 1stmarine's stated variables.

I've got a little over 20 years experience owning, building, and shooting AR15s and M16s. During that time, I've never personally fired or even seen any M193 or M193 clone shoot a sub-MOA extreme spread for any group of more than 3-shots.

Fourth, I mean these things in the nicest possible manner. In firearms training the biggest hurdles and limitations I see with students is themselves, and not the firearms or the ammo.. YMMV.

Based on the quality of your commentary thus far, I think having you as an instructor is probably your student's biggest limitation; but I mean that in the nicest possible manner.

A) AR Match barrels are extremely accurate many times going mano a mano with the best bolt systems.

B) A match barrel is not guarantee of extreme accuracy with a particular load, commercial or not. What we commonly hear as "my barrel doesn't like this load".

I think everybody here understands that. We have a fairly good group of shooter who do actually get out and shoot. The problem I am having is that I've never seen that kind of performance from any barrel - EVER - in 20 years of shooting and watching others shoot. And you are telling me you've got four different barrels that are nothing particularly special that all perform that well. So I am having a difficult time reconciling my own personal experience with what you are saying.

C) Heavy barrels in 16" are also extremely accurate, even "low-tier" systems (Whatever that means). All other things being equal, a short barrel is more accurate than a long one. You loose a tad speed but that is a different subject. This doesn't mean a long barrel can be more accurate than a short one with a specific load. Many times they are but what I mean is a simple matter of physics.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm using a 16" Lilja stainless steel match barrel with a hybrid chamber. It is a medium profile at 32oz. It will shoot Hornady 55gr boattails sub-MOA. it will shoot pretty much any match ammo sub-MOA. The best it has ever shot any XM193 load is a 5-round (not 10) group of around 2.5" at 100yds. It meets every single one of the criteria you have named as necessary (unlined, short barrel, heavier profile, hybrid chamber, match barrel).

Yet I'm not seeing sub-MOA. I'm not even seeing the groups you state I should get from a chrome-lined 1:7 standard run of the mill AR barrel.

Apparently, I can shoot sub-MOA with other ammo, so I am mystified why I am not seeing that performance with XM193 if it is capable of it.

zeke
June 18, 2011, 09:14 PM
Actual Chrono data from no name full lenght AR 16 inch of actual rifled barrel, several years ago. Exact date and temp not recorded. This was with open sights, the small peep sighted into 1 hundred yards.

Fed XM193 Lot-10 , 02 headstamp. Avg vel 4 rounds = 3155 fps. Accuracy listed as very good, and remeber this being very accurate out of rifle.

Win Q3131A, lot TB71 looks like 01 head stamp. Av vel 6 rounds = 3112 fps
Accuracy listed as good potential about 1.5 in @ 100 yards

Win USA223R1VP, unknown lot, avg vel for 3 rounds = 2955 fps



From diifferent chrono, specific date and time not listed

Q3131A Lot TB71, av vel 3 rounds 3029 fps. Could easily be temp/distance to chrono/barrel heat etc. related


Recently aquired a RRA ATH, and it is extremely accurate. Next time i have it out to range , will take some of the M193 with and try it. Wouldn't be at all suprised at less than MOA. (bipod and rear bag, max 4x at scope)

1858
June 18, 2011, 10:15 PM
Hmmm ... lots of talk but no targets showing tiny groups with XM193, but quite a few posts showing typical groups with that ammunition. I can post a bunch of targets showing what my 24" stainless fluted DPMS barrel does with my reloads and Black Hills 55gr reman ... consistently under 0.5 MOA. And yet that same rifle won't consistently shoot under 1.5 MOA with XM193. Typically, 5 and 10-shot groups will range from 1.5 to 2 MOA. As far as I'm concerned, it has to be the ammunition. I'd be one happy camper if that rifle would do better but it doesn't. I use XM193 in my carbine for 2 and 3-gun matches, plinking and SD ... not a big deal really.

1stmarine
June 19, 2011, 12:18 AM
First, I believe that your claims of velocity obtained with the M193 ammo from a 16" barrel is rather optimistic by maybe a couple hundred feet per second.


I am going to look for some targets in some old folders I have archived and then scan them and post them here. in the mean time CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME AMMO?....

How can this be the same ammo and shoot 200fps slower? M193 is well known to be pretty consistent and clean burning ammo.
I bet not even in the north pole one could get this variation of 200fps out of the M193.

Mine were tested in pretty standard conditions
400ft elevation Temp:40-50 3-5mph 90dg. wind.

1858
June 19, 2011, 12:52 AM
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME AMMO?....

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm talking about this ammunition ...

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

From the link ....

• ACCURACY: 3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00" mean radius maximum average at 200 yards

Sam Cade
June 19, 2011, 02:15 AM
I can't speak for anyone else but I'm talking about this ammunition ...


Yup, that is specifically the ammunition he mentioned in post #4. I posted the same link in post #22.

TonyAngel
June 19, 2011, 03:02 AM
Since I got no reply on this subject I have to assume the person doing the testing is: A) using another ammo by mistake. B) His/her chrono is not working properly. C) Made other mistake.

1stMarine, you really shouldn't go assuming things like that. Quite frankly, I give up. This isn't even a discussion because your claims are so far off from what is KNOWN to be true.

Let me ask you this, anyway. How many rifles have you built? I've built a lot of them and I know what it takes to make an AR shoot straight. I learned a lot of it through trial and error, but I do have a good idea. I also know that a rifle built with the best components won't shoot worth a darn unless you feed it good ammunition.

When was the last time that you took a random sampling of M193, pulled the bullets and weighed the components to see how consistent they were? Did you ever measure the projectiles from the base to the ogive? I have. Some lots weren't too bad. Some lots were pretty bad. The point is that M193 isn't as consistent as you are proclaiming it to be. True match grade bullets vary VERY little in all specs that matter. Consistency is what makes accuracy and M193 just doesn't have it.

jackpinesavages
June 19, 2011, 09:26 AM
Mr. Roberts: Based on the quality of your commentary thus far, I think having you as an instructor is probably your student's biggest limitation; but I mean that in the nicest possible manner.


I can appreciate that.

I was not being sarcastic when I inferred being nice. This is The High Road where we are trying to assist one another, rather than belittle each other. However, if you would like to take the low road that again is your decision.
When you transfer this negative energy in searching out how other people are wrong, into asking better questions or finding solutions in that same research time, your shooting will improve and so will your rifle builds.

Excellent thread example for Instructors as well as shooters of 193. Carry on 1st marine-thanks for your excellent contributions.

zeke
June 19, 2011, 08:05 PM
jackpinesavages-From the city of the annual Jack Pine Savage festival? Maybe this year, i will buy a t-shirt?

1stmarine
June 19, 2011, 09:08 PM
TonyAngel,
I built or help build more than 250 systems in my life this without counting the ones I helped my brother or my father built. Not all for me but helped many folks build match winning systems and long range surgical systems for hunting. Always researching and learning how to make them better and, if possible, for less so it is affordable for the average working american. I also mentor young kids in both rifle and skeet and proper marksmanship routines and safety above all. In the service I was a DM in my unit but this really doesn't mean anything since most average shooters with a few days of good training can achieve amazing results.

I never mentioned that M193 is considered match ammo so I don't know where that is coming from.

A side note:
I keep learning every day from everyone. Sometimes from good fellow members in this forum.

I posted my data here in good faith and you quickly replied declaring this data BS. That is a very mature and professional approach I have to say.

I see this every day. 9mm vs. 40cal, AK vs. AR, 6.8 vs grendel, slugs vs buckshot, and the list goes on and on... All very boring and sad. MINE VS YOURS, just like little kids.

This is just simple load data man. nothing else.

..............

One day when one of the students asked Morihei Ueshiba (the founder of the Aikido Martial Art) Master, how does it feel to be such a great expert, knowing and mastering every technique? he simply replied.... I am another student son, the day I stop learning, that day I am dead. He was 82 years old.

1stmarine
June 19, 2011, 09:13 PM
... and I forgot...

I fabricate some pieces from scratch for my ARs and other systems. If I cannot fabricate a piece in my lathe I send the CAD design to a reputable firm and they take care of cutting it for me.

Cheers.
E.

1stmarine
June 19, 2011, 11:55 PM
For those M193 infidels. After my skeet practice today I stopped by the range to test some 6x45 handloads and I also brought a couple of uppers and a few rounds of M193. It was late and I was going fast so the barrel was on fire but in any case this is a good example of what this nifty factory round can do. No measuring, no weighting, no nothing. open a few boxes and bang bang...

Open the box...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/XM193.jpg

Also a few from the bulk case...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/xm193_2.jpg


Target at 100...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/RRA_NAnr2_100yds_fathers_day.jpg


Delton 16HB#2 upper...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6841b.jpg

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6844b.jpg

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6849b.jpg


RRA NM 20"#1 upper...
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6845b.jpg

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6847b.jpg

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6848b.jpg

Another decent group with the delton...

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/AR15/100_6851b.jpg

As you can see nothing close to 2 or 3 moa as some claim here.
There is no "secret" about this. The federal is a very good round, consistent, clean, great brass for reloads, we could not ask for anything else for a price range of $240-290 for 900 rounds.

Again, this is not match ammo. It will never be. So don't say things I never said.


This is match ammo. ..1/4MOA....
6x45 SGK 90gr with 27gr of varget. LC brass, nice! ... one .223 round there in the middle.

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/6x45/6x45vs233_1.jpg


3x Rapid fire hunting loads inside the dime....
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/6x45/16da74a2b0e0.jpg

I have .223 rounds but I am don't have them scanned and uploaded. That's enough for today and this non-sense.

jbkebert
June 20, 2011, 12:03 AM
Good pict's and nice shooting.

1858
June 20, 2011, 01:32 AM
1stmarine, I really don't know what to think of this. The next time I go to the range I'll shoot some XM193 with my sub 0.5 MOA DPMS and also some 77gr SMKs and will post those groups. I'll even video the impacts on target for you. Maybe you'll be able to tell me why I don't get anything close to your results. Out of interest, how do those ARs shoot with your handloads, and what handloads do you use?

M1key
June 20, 2011, 12:08 PM
Great job 1st Marine! Take that all you skeptics.

I often get the similar grief when I make accuracy claims on the internet.

Everyone seems to want proof of accuracy claims, just cuz they aren't getting as good results as you...

M

dom1104
June 20, 2011, 01:09 PM
Marines are so awesome.

They can truly make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

You are awesome 1stmarine.

1858
June 20, 2011, 02:27 PM
Everyone seems to want proof of accuracy claims, just cuz they aren't getting as good results as you...

When 9 out of 10 shooters aren't getting the results that 1stmarine has shown, is it surprising that there are skeptics (me included). When the company that makes the ammunition only claims "3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00" mean radius maximum average at 200 yards" is it unreasonable to expect more than just numbers? That's MEAN RADIUS MAXIMUM in case you hadn't noticed. If you're implying that the explanation for the discrepancy is simply down to shooter ability then you clearly haven't been paying attention.

TonyAngel
June 20, 2011, 02:45 PM
1stMarine, this is what you first posted....

This is some of the data I have:
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average Speed: 3,156
XM193 in Delton 16" ML - average group: 0.90 MOA

XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average Speed: 3,162
XM193 in RRA 16" M4 Adams Piston - average group: 0.85 MOA

XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average Speed: 3,228
XM193 in RRA 20" National Match - average group: 0.70 MOA

Note your claims of average group sizes. According to your claims, all three of those rifles are solid sub MOA shooters with M193. What that means to me is that they will shoot that way ALL of the time.

In those pics that you posted above, I do see the groups that you are directing our attention to, but I also see a bunch of groups that are more representative of what you can expect from M193. As I noted before, it wouldn't surprise me to get some really good groups out of that ammo sometimes, but it isn't going to happen with any consistency.

This is what consistency looks like....
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0005-2.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0006-2.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0007.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0008.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0003-1.jpg

I would call this rifle with those loads a consistent sub MOA shooter, because it will do it every time, not just every once in a while.

M1key
June 20, 2011, 07:11 PM
Handloaded heavy 308 match in a 5 mph wind?

1stmarine is shooting military reject 5.56 in a 3-9 mph wind.

The claim from most here is that they NEVER achieve anything close to moa groups.

I think 1stmarine has effectively made his case

Unless ALL of you are lying. :D

Peace out,

M

1858
June 20, 2011, 07:27 PM
I think 1stmarine has effectively made his case

For the ammunition or for his rifles ... or both? Many of us here shoot regularly, shoot well and have quite a bit of experience with both factory ammunition and handloads. It's not as if we wouldn't be happy if we had similar success with XM193. I'd be VERY happy if I could buy a case of 1,000 for $350 and have it shoot this well out of my rifles. Who could ask for better for a carbine? This thread has me scratching my head.

TonyAngel
June 20, 2011, 07:40 PM
M1key, you've obviously missed the point. The point I was trying to make is that the above rifle showed a level of consistency with certain ammunition that would live up to a claim that it was a sub MOA shooter. 1stMarine has proven no such thing. I've seen no evidence of his claim that he, his rifles and the ammunition are capable of AVERAGE groups in the sub MOA range.

All I've seen is a few cherry picked groups.

To be honest, I truly do wish that 1stMarine was right. As 1858 mentioned, I too would LOVE to be able to pick up a case of 1000 rounds for under $350 and have it shoot to even MOA, which is more than good enough for most short range matches, barring those of the benchrest variety. I find reloading to be a PITA and wouldn't do it, if I didn't need to.

M1key
June 20, 2011, 07:45 PM
I have shot XM193 out of a floated barrel Colt SP-1 and probably got close to 2MOA+ with irons and maybe a little better with a 4x scope...but that was a long time ago when my eyes and memory were better.

FWIW, when I make accuracy claims, it is usually what the ammo, rifle, shooter are capable of under ideal conditions. And no, not every single group is going to meet that mark. Mainly because this shooter is the biggest variable.

Tony, I guess we have different standards. It's all good...happy shootin'.

M

1stmarine
June 20, 2011, 10:59 PM
Guys Keep quoting me all you want. I am not playing that game.
Those systems with heavy barrels shoot submoa all day. Not federal "all the time" though and I never said that no matter what you imply. But I know I can rely on that ammo for more than pliking as some try to portray here.

I love firearm enthusiasts. Always so opinionated... but sometimes it gets in the way.

I see this thing now diverting a little by little into something else so I am out of here with this final note for the OP:

- M193 is a good consistent, clean, great brass ammo capable of submoa.
- Is it match ammo? - NO ...I already said this several times.
- Does every barrel love Lake City loads - NO!... I have a few of those too.
- Can produce very respectful groups and submoa - hell yes!

Now lets rewind a bit...

The OP Questions:
1. What is the best group you have gotten using M193 ammo?
- I posted mine some others posted theirs and their BS concerns on my data too.

2. How do I better test my set up...?
System:
- If you only have one barrel/upper work with it.
- Do not need a huge $'s glass but something reliable.
- Muzzle devices preferably well designed and preferably of much less density as the same section of barrel. Not a determined factor but it is not a bad idea to test several.
- 5.56 chamber is the adequate but wylde (or other match) chambers sometimes do better.
- Free Floating handguard is paramount although short heavy barrels are more forgiving.
- Try shots in cancel mode. If you do not have cancel then get a cheap gas block or a brass ring clamp and try single shot (no gass) to see what the barrel alone can do.
- 2 stage trigger might help. not a determining factor. Use a crisp trigger that you like that is for sure.


Setup / operation:
- Well supported. Sandbags both in the front and back or whatever bench rest setup you can find if this is to test your system's accuracy and not your skill.
- Do not start cold bore.
- Start with a dirty barrel. Not a clean one. Not filthy, just wight a few previous shots.
- Do not overheat. Heat throws the groups out.


3. Am I doing about as well as possible with the standard trigger and surplus ammo? (Was really wanting to break the 1 MOA barrier)

MOA barrier is not that hard for an AR. Even 1/2MOA is expected by many. Lesbaers certifies their systems 1/2MOA guaranteed. That is with Corbon and Blackhills ammo though.
Just try a few boxes of all types of ammo and see what your barrel likes best. NATO is going to be very consistent but not match. Corbon, Federal Match, Hornady and Black-hills make very good ammo, some expensive though. Again, find what you barrel likes best. You barrel might shoot better with Priv, FC, PMC, etc.. than Federal and for others is the other way around.

Surplus ammo can be very accurate. I find this with most 90's NATO ammo.
The groups I tested is with ammo I buy 'fresh' every year. I get round 10 boxes which is 9K rounds all from same batch possibly but not sure. I never really check.
Stay away from Russian puffins unless you shoot pumpkins or cans.
They are more expensive in the long run, they are less consistent and pretty dirty. I have a few and save them for those guns and some weekend fun, not to do any serious shooting.

Everything starts and ends with the bullet, hopefully a good one.
Everything else, the firearm, the case, the powder, the scope, the technique, is just a delivery method. ...just like the FEDEX guy. lol!

So ... "do not think like a rifle, think like a bullet".

1stmarine
June 20, 2011, 11:03 PM
1858,
Try some of the system "options" I posted for the op. Always heavy barrel. But do not give up because of federal try other budget packs like FC, Priv, PMC, etc...
With handloads they shoot closer to the 1/2 MOA. only the national match shoots below 1/2 MOA consistently with the 69SMKs, Hornadys 75s and Berger 77grs.
It loooovesss the hornadys 75 with varget and lapua brass. I am actually developing a load for a friend that is going to camp perry.
The key is that handloads are consistent results ALL THE TIME. I can keep the spreads with differences into the single digits. That is key.

The thing with the AR is that when you try 6mm there is no turning back. I have my eye in a couple of Whitley's uppers next.

1stmarine
June 20, 2011, 11:04 PM
M1key,jackpinesavages and others,
Thanks for trying to bring a positive approach to the thread.
Cheers.

1stmarine
June 20, 2011, 11:11 PM
TonyAngel,
Amazing groups you got up there.
Sorry I don't like the "Quote&roll" game.
Cheers.

Ohio Gun Guy
June 20, 2011, 11:19 PM
Thanks for the replies and all the effort. I tried some commercial PMC and got a little smaller group. I'll get out and get a good sampling of ammo and try to get some match ammo also.

Since my original post, I've been back to the range 2 times. I think a new trigger is needed also. it has a mile long creep and is a little stiff. I'm not saying it's all the trigger, but It not helping. Practical accuracy is there. I can shoot and hit small targets (1-2") off the backstop at 150 all day. It's just getting 5 to stay together....

jackpinesavages
June 21, 2011, 10:38 AM
jackpinesavages-From the city of the annual Jack Pine Savage festival? Maybe this year, i will buy a t-shirt?

That's the place brother! Heaven above Hwy 8.

Nice shooting Marine. Get some.

zeke
June 21, 2011, 07:11 PM
"That's the place brother! Heaven above Hwy 8."

jackpinesavages-liked it enough to move here bout 15 years ago, lifetime member of IRPC

HKGuns
June 21, 2011, 09:38 PM
Nice shooting First Marine. I've found the XM193 to be more accurate than me with that platform....So let the doubters doubt. I don't get why it matters so much anyway.

dom1104
June 21, 2011, 10:11 PM
Exactly man, I mean comon....lets be honest, the whole "match ammo" industry is a crock, as is reloading, in the end.

People who buy match ammo, or reload, just cant shoot well enough.

All you need is some LC xm193 and a inexpensive AR and you have sub moa match winning performance.

God bless America.

Bennybone
July 11, 2011, 11:37 PM
I am constantly in awe of what fantastic shooters (TonyAngel and 1rstMarine) can be reduced to as a result of the Internet, specifically where time spent on pondering/checking messages/looking through archives/etc etc..., when this discussion could have been over in a day if 1rstMarine would have simply gone to the range, shot a group, snapped a photo, and posted it.

In the end when you have someone post a grouping and the response from the ney-sayer is "well you didn't refer to the group size that I see in adjacent groupings on the targets", I mean come on....

I hate placing "asteriks" next to a great many feats in life, we do it in Sports/Politics/Relationships, I think it is humanity's achilles heel BUT the Internet only seems to pronounce the detriment.

Again I am in awe of you both from a shooting standpoint, this other noise was not worth the time, in my opinion.

FUNNY STORY -

While everyone here is talking about M193's groupings, I was ignorant up until I stumbled upon this thread. So much so that I sold a gun within the last year because I was getting consistent 3 - 4 inch groupings and ended up blaming the gun. I now see that I wasn't informed of what the average user yeilds from shooting this round.

I don't feel remorse but rather joy that The High Road served a purpose to educate an ignorant yet willing to learn individual (ME) today.

Later guys,

BB

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