LMT vs DPMS


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DammitBoy
June 12, 2011, 10:30 PM
Can somebody convince me why the LMT at $2700 is so vastly superior over the DPMS at $1600? $1000 dollars better?

I'm speaking of the LMT LM308MWS vs the DPMS RFLR308 AP4, which for all intents and purposes appear to be the same weapon in regard to components, finishes, and quality.

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taliv
June 12, 2011, 10:41 PM
not sure but offhand it looks like it has a $200 SOPMOD stock, a quadrail worth probably $300, a 2-stage trigger ($150?), a great charging handle ($40), etc

LMT also has ambi controls, which may be a big plus

still, i don't see the price justified there

Apocalypse-Now
June 12, 2011, 10:43 PM
i don't see the justification either. i'd probably grab a SCAR .308 for less than $2,700 rather than LMT.

get the dpms if you like it, not many folks have close to 3 grand to drop on a rifle. i know folks that really like their dpms's too :)

Z-Michigan
June 12, 2011, 11:02 PM
I'm speaking of the LMT LM308MWS vs the DPMS RFLR308 AP4, which for all intents and purposes appear to be the same weapon in regard to components, finishes, and quality.

Is this a joke? It's basically like saying a Ford Crown Victoria and BMW M5 are the same car in regard to components, finishes, and quality, so why pay more for the BMW?

The LMT has far superior materials:
7075 upper and lower vs. 6066 upper and 6061 lower
4150 CMV barrel vs. 4140 barrel
chrome lined barrel vs. unlined

Processes:
forged upper and lower receivers vs. DPMS extruded upper and milled lower
cryo treatment on barrel
MPI/HPT on bolt and barrel
shot peened bolt

Quality: derives from the above, the manufacturing process, and the reputation of each.

Name any militaries that are using DPMS .308 rifles. The UK is using the LMT 308 with excellent results.

Disclosure: I own a DPMS LR-308. I have firsthand experience with it, and it's not military grade.

crossrhodes
June 12, 2011, 11:15 PM
Well. I guess like most people on this forum we are here because we enjoy shooting and all the good things that come with it. What I mean is that we are not all operators currently humping the hills or the bad lands or waiting for the zombies to attack, nor are most of use shooting more then 5000 rounds a year, hence a $2500 rifle is nothing but bragging rights and justifying the $$$ to the wife. So I think buying the DPMS would be prudent on your part and you won't be disappointed. I have the LR308C (7.62 chamber) and the AP4 in 7.62 and have put over 5000 rounds down the tube in each and no major malfunctions.
I clean after 1000 rounds and keep some extra extractor springs on hand just in case. Buy the DPMS and use the $$$ you save to buy extras or ammo.
I'm retired and like to shoot so I use a lot of wolf ammo...No problems

Z-Michigan
June 12, 2011, 11:24 PM
What I mean is that we are not all operators currently humping the hills or the bad lands or waiting for the zombies to attack, nor are most of use shooting more then 5000 rounds a year,

No argument on that, but just because the Crown Vic is adequate for 99% of buyers doesn't magically turn it into an M5, which is what the OP seemed to be claiming.

crossrhodes
June 12, 2011, 11:37 PM
I agree and wouldn't even entertain a conversation with some one saying the DPMS is equal...it's not or it would cost $2500. But for the average range queen it's not a bad deal. I know what my M16 A1 and A2 (I'm dating myself) went through when I was in service and I wouldn't want anything less then milspec. But for us retired gents, (we don't run so hard now a days)LOL. the DPMS would do....but I sure wouldn't mind that BMW sitting in my drive way.

JustinJ
June 13, 2011, 10:53 AM
The LMT is hands down a better gun. The DPMS is more than good enough for hunting and/or plinking. If my life could potentially rely on the gun i'd go LMT without a doubt. Or if you just like having top of the line as i do. In that case though wait for the HK MR762A1.

wally
June 13, 2011, 10:58 AM
we are not all operators currently humping the hills or the bad lands

Aren't the guns of real operators supplied by their employer?

As I've said before, blind obedience to "mil-spec" is why taxpayers' money is spent on $600 hammers and $400 toilet seats!

Z-Michigan
June 13, 2011, 11:35 AM
In that case though wait for the HK MR762A1

The LMT 308 and HK417 were two of several entries in the UK's competition for a .308 DMR/light sniper setup, and the LMT won. In other words, I don't see that the HK MR762 has anything on the LMT MWS 308.

Aren't the guns of real operators supplied by their employer?

You mean the gun shop kommando was lying when he said that he had sold the SEALs the very Desert Eagle (50 AE, gold plated) that was used to kill OBL?

Details, details.

Zerodefect
June 13, 2011, 12:39 PM
The LMT's price will make more sense around $2200.

Anything over $2500 is too much IMO.

Sopmod-$250
Rails-$300
Trigger- $150
Ambi selector -$30
Stainless barrel -extra $100 (allthough cheap DPMS barrels seem really acurate)
Bolt Carrier Group- $170 (way better stuff in the LMT)

DammitBoy
June 13, 2011, 01:09 PM
Is this a joke?

The LMT has far superior materials:
7075 upper and lower vs. 6066 upper and 6061 lower
4150 CMV barrel vs. 4140 barrel
chrome lined barrel vs. unlined

Processes:
forged upper and lower receivers vs. DPMS extruded upper and milled lower
cryo treatment on barrel
MPI/HPT on bolt and barrel
shot peened bolt

Quality: derives from the above, the manufacturing process, and the reputation of each.



No, it's not a joke - it was an honest uninformed question in the hopes of becoming more informed. I wasn't claiming they were equal. :rolleyes:

For the record though, the DPMS I'm looking at for $1600 has a chrome-lined barrel and has an upgraded bolt, stock, trigger and the 4 rail handguard. You can get an DPMS .308 AP4 for less than $1600, so I wasn't comparing the base model to the LMT.

Thanks for some interesting information about the processes that go into the LMT.

Z-Michigan
June 13, 2011, 01:44 PM
OK. Are you looking at the DPMS that R Guns has listed? Or can you provide a link?

Anyway, two other items that I left off my list and everyone else did too:

-The LMT MWS has an easily detachable/replaceable barrel. Undo two bolts, slide the barrel out, slide a new one in, reinstall the bolts with a torque wrench. Best if you use a bolt matched to each barrel. This is a user-serviceable, in-the-field barrel change or replacement feature though. Few if any other ARs have that.

-The LMT upper and rail system is a monolithic forging. Most rail systems are separate pieces that attach to the barrel nut, and the few other monolithic systems (Mega makes one) are to my knowledge billet. I don't know if there's anyone else offering a monolithic forged upper/handguard setup.

Those two features are hard to price since they are essentially unique.

FWIW, I have an LMT SOPMOD stock, and while it's a very nice stock, I would not pay $200+ for one. The VLTOR Emod and Magpul ACS are fairly comparable for less money (though neither is cheap).

On some other points, the LMT barrel is supposedly from Rock Creek barrels (I've read that, not certain) and is going to be a premium barrel. The DPMS barrel, unless otherwise stated, is going to be from an adequate but unexceptional maker like Shaw or Wilson. The DPMS standard 308 barrels (not chrome lined) actually shoot quite well, and my LR-308B is one of the most accurate guns I own. But I wouldn't expect the same durability or reliable accuracy from them, especially in chrome-lined flavor.

LMT makes some of the best AR bolts made by anyone, with modifications to the shape to improve durability. Unless DPMS is sourcing the bolt from LMT or KAC, it's not going to be as good as the LMT bolt. I strongly suspect it's just their ordinary 8620 bolt with some chrome plating, unless there is a specific statement of other improvements and source.

JustinJ
June 13, 2011, 02:38 PM
"The LMT 308 and HK417 were two of several entries in the UK's competition for a .308 DMR/light sniper setup, and the LMT won. In other words, I don't see that the HK MR762 has anything on the LMT MWS 308."

Bah, what do the Limey's know? Just kidding, Brits, if there are any here. I would expect the LMT to be slightly more accurate given that the HK is piston driven. I haven't seen results of the tests but it is my undrestanding that the Brits were looking for a DMR type rifle. I'd be surprised if the LMT beat the HK anywhere but accuracy but again, I haven't seen the trial results but would like to if anyone has a link. Also, don't know if cost was a factor but the point is military trials don't necessarily prove one firearm to be superior to another. And rumor has it that american special ops are using HK 416s. Either way, I'm an HK guy but think the LMT rocks too, just a little less.

Edit: Btw, I've handled the LMT and it was awfully front heavy from the barrel and monolith receiver i suppose. Haven't handled the DPMS yet.

DammitBoy
June 13, 2011, 02:53 PM
OK. Are you looking at the DPMS that R Guns has listed? Or can you provide a link?



No, and no link as this is a locally for sale custom ordered from DPMS that somebody decided they didn't want.

As far as I am aware, the barrel and bolt are standard DPMS product that has been chromed by DPMS or provided by DPMS. It has a 14.5" barrel chrome-lined w/ a perm attached flash hider to make it 16", it has the LMT sopmod stock, the JP trigger, ergo grip, ambi safety selector, tactical latch charging handle, and a A3 flattop w/ 4-rail free float tube. New in the box with two 19-round mags.

The serial number on the box designates the model as RFLR-GPS1 .308 - I checked on the DPMS website and found no such model listed.

Z-Michigan
June 13, 2011, 03:38 PM
As far as I am aware, the barrel and bolt are standard DPMS product that has been chromed by DPMS or provided by DPMS. It has a 14.5" barrel chrome-lined w/ a perm attached flash hider to make it 16", it has the LMT sopmod stock, the JP trigger, ergo grip, ambi safety selector, tactical latch charging handle, and a A3 flattop w/ 4-rail free float tube. New in the box with two 19-round mags.

Thanks. I know DPMS does a wide range of special order models.

My 2 cents - if you want a nice .308 AR staying well below the price of an LMT, I would take one of the following paths:

1) Start with an Armalite AR-10A4 carbine. Change muzzle device and grip if you want. Install a good optic. Replace the buttstock if you want, probably with an VLTOR Emod as a the best quality/features/value telestock (IMHO). Install a BCM Gunfighter .308 sized charging handle, which is better than the tactical latch options from anyone else (including LMT). If you want a free-float tube, get a Troy TRX .308 model; if you want a quadrail, get a MI drop-in quadrail system (sized for the Armalite).

2) Start with a DPMS .308 in one of the basic sub-$1k models, depending what kind of barrel and buttstock you want. I would personally suggest the 308t as offering good features at a nice price. Replace the trigger with a Geissele SSA or SDC. Change muzzle device and grip if you want. Install a good optic. Replace the buttstock if you want, probably with an VLTOR Emod as a the best quality/features/value telestock (IMHO); with a fixed stock I'd leave the A2, but if you want to change it look at the EFX-A1, or the Magpul PRS (overpriced IMHO). Install a BCM Gunfighter .308 sized charging handle. Get a bunch of aftermarket mags, since the DPMS mags aren't very good. While C-Products mags are usually poor, their .308 mag is actually quite good in my experience, and I prefer it over the Magpul .308 Pmag.

rogertc1
June 13, 2011, 07:30 PM
I's just get the Taurus Ar15...same thing...

DammitBoy
June 13, 2011, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the input Z, I appreciate the advice.

whoneedsnumbers
January 22, 2012, 09:30 PM
No comparison can be made between these 2 guns. I recently purchased the LMT 308 MWS and there's a reason why I saved money an additional 3 months to purchase the LMT over a DPMS or RRA. Overall quality and accuracy can't be matched...and to who said that the quad rail was worth roughly $300 on the LMT: its a monolithic rail platform. The complete upper, which includes the quad rail is made of a single stock of steel. I got mine for $2400 and will have this gun for the rest of my life. Nothing against the other 308's, but I just wanted to buy my dream gun and I sure got it! I would recommend the LMT to anyone wanting to buy a quality 308.

DoubleMag
January 23, 2012, 09:36 AM
DPLMTS rifles rule!!

there...everyone can be happy on every topic on every upper and every lower on every AR15 AR10 rifle

No comparison can be made between these 2 guns. I recently purchased the LMT 308 MWS and there's a reason why I saved money an additional 3 months to purchase the LMT over a DPMS or RRA.... who needs.... did you consider that Match grade AR10 by Armalite??

bob barker
January 23, 2012, 09:52 PM
I have a DPMS that out shoots a buddies LMT!! Its a great gun with the JP trigger upgrade. I have $1500 in it and he has $3100 in his, I am no doubt a better shot. If you have the disposable income and want the best range toy, go for it. I could have bought either, but opted for the DPMS. I am not crawling through sand, swimming through rivers, or climbing mount everest with my rifles. They go hog hunting on my 500 acres, and bench shooting off my deck. The DPMS has never let me down.

charlie echo
January 24, 2012, 01:37 AM
Is the LMT more reliable then the LRB Arms M25? Accuracy's about same?

madcratebuilder
January 24, 2012, 09:32 AM
I own Noveske and ArmaLite, spent a lot of time shooting a LMT and DPMS. All of them are accurate rifles. There are minor differences in fit and finish, the monolithic upper on the LMT stands out as being the most different but it functions the same as the others. Add a few upgrades to even the cheapest DPMS and it shoots and feels like any of them.

I'll add my Noveske well out shoot every .308 platform AR on the planet because it's special:neener:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/AR10/AR10noveske02.jpg

DammitBoy
January 25, 2012, 10:17 PM
That was my original thought madcrate. I think I can build a dpms from the factory for right at 2k that will perform as well as and be of a similar quality to the 3k+ boutique ebr's.

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