Thin 9mm w/ Shorter Trigger Pull than Kahr


PDA






averagebear
June 13, 2011, 07:58 PM
I have not been able to shoot accurately with my Kahr CW9. The long trigger pull is distracting. Is there a pistol the size of the Kahr with a much shorter trigger pull? I'm a lefty, so any suggested pistol needs to be lefty-friendly. Any action type would be acceptable, if it has a - better for me - trigger.

If you enjoyed reading about "Thin 9mm w/ Shorter Trigger Pull than Kahr" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Dean1818
June 13, 2011, 08:35 PM
Practice.......Practice.......practice

You will learn the trigger of the Kahr, which IMHO.... is a GREAT choice for IWB CCW

Zerodefect
June 13, 2011, 08:39 PM
HK PSP P7

Lefty approved, super light trigger. Expensive, but no more than a fancy 1911.

FCastle88
June 13, 2011, 08:46 PM
The Kahr trigger pull isn't really that long, especially compared to it's main competition, the Kel-Tec PF9 and Ruger LC9. The Walther PPS has a Glock-like trigger, but it's a bit larger than the CW9, and more expensive. The Springfield EMP has a nice SA trigger, but it's a lot more expensive. That's pretty much all I can think of.

usp9
June 13, 2011, 08:47 PM
Walther PPS

MCgunner
June 13, 2011, 09:23 PM
If you can't shoot a Kahr and you're unwilling to practice, consider Karate. :rolleyes: Can't shoot your leg in karate. I'd not even recommend a single action condition one without a lot of practice...for safety, not necessarily for shooting skill.

jbr
June 13, 2011, 09:32 PM
I had the same problem - bought a taurus pt 709 and love it - takes about three mags to get the feel for the trigger . I shoot it much more accurately. I did like the Kahr better than the Ruger. Everybody keeps saying - practice, practice etc... but i didn't like the trigger - it was much different from all my other guns - and i did not want to have to concentrate that hard to pull off a shot - if it comes to it, i may be occupied with other things. Everybody with a Kahr thinks they are the end all be all of CC guns but mine wouldn't load from a slingshot - "feature" and i just didn't like the trigger. Theat's why they make different kinds - have fun trying them all out

ATBackPackin
June 13, 2011, 09:33 PM
I also have a Kahr CW9 and think it's a fantastic carry gun. I will admit that the trigger pull is a bit long, but it is extremely smooth. It can take some getting use to, I know it did with me, and only you know if you have given it a fair chance. Once I got really comfortable with it, about the end of the break in period, I found it to be super accurate and I really dig the bar dot sights. It is light, slim, unbelievably easy to conceal, and for its size has great control.

However if you find it really isn't the gun for you, the Walther PPS is another fantastic carry gun for a couple hundred dollars more.

Good luck.
Shawn

averagebear
June 14, 2011, 11:11 PM
The pistols you recommended will be checked out! Thank you all. With 60 years of shooting under my belt, I still find that I have limited my view.

Cards81fan
June 14, 2011, 11:37 PM
The PPS is what came to mind for me. Also has a trigger guard mag release, which makes it ambidextrous in that regard. As slim as the Kahr, perhaps a bit longer grip than the PM series.

KAS1981
June 14, 2011, 11:49 PM
The Kahr trigger really isn't very long. It's much shorter than my Ruger LC9.

The only other 9mm in that size range that has a better trigger IMO is the Taurus 709.

71Commander
June 15, 2011, 08:49 AM
Springfield EMP in 9mm. :)

harmon rabb
June 15, 2011, 08:56 AM
The only other 9mm in that size range that has a better trigger IMO is the Taurus 709.

the taurus 709's trigger pull is long though, even though it's all slack until right at the end.

Springfield EMP in 9mm.

Well, that's definitely the best trigger you'll find on a concealable single stack 9mm, but it's a larger gun than the kahr.

WRGADog
June 15, 2011, 09:12 AM
one of the slimest pistols available, and has a very good trigger.

FIVETWOSEVEN
June 15, 2011, 11:12 AM
Dry fire is your friend, as I tell others. Pick a target with your unloaded gun, steadily pull the trigger back while keeping the sights level, if they go off then pull it back back while retaining a steady trigger pull. As you do this, you'll be able to do this faster while retaining a good sight picture. This is the best way to get good with heavy long triggers.

VA27
June 16, 2011, 01:54 PM
The only trigger pull shorter than the Kahr that I can think of is the Glock/SmithM&P type, followed by something 1911ish.

The Kahr has about half the length of pull compared to any DA revolver, Sig DA or Smith 39 based guns.

The Kahrs I've had were excellent shooters and very accurate, due in part to their smooth and short trigger pulls.

All you need is some serious practice time and possibly some coaching from someone who knows what to look for in your technique.

TonyT
June 16, 2011, 08:05 PM
Being an old revolver shooter I look at the Kahr trigger as close to ideal. It resembles an ultra smooth and light DA trigger pull on a revolver.

Lefty Wright
June 16, 2011, 09:30 PM
Had a CW9, PM9 and a PPS. All nice guns, but they don't hold a candle to a 3" or 4" 1911 in 9mm. Go for a Kimber Ultra CDPII or Pro Carry II in 9mm. Easier to conceal, super trigger and much more comfortable to shoot.

Apocalypse-Now
June 16, 2011, 09:50 PM
SA emp40 :)


the kahr trigger pulls are actually longer than they used to be, and they were seriously long to being with. not sure if it's all models, or just the one i looked though.

by the time you get done pulling the trigger, the police will be there to save you from the robber :eek:

Ben86
June 16, 2011, 10:48 PM
The best trigger of the thin 9mms out these days goes to the Taurus 709 slim IMO. It has a SA/DA trigger. The pull is mostly weightless take up and then a crisp, light break. Only if you pull the trigger again on a dud does it revert to DA which isn't bad either. You ought to check it out.

The Kahr trigger pull can take some getting used to. I like though, to me it's like a finely tuned DA revolver trigger. You ought to give it some more time, Kahrs are great guns.

wow6599
June 16, 2011, 11:09 PM
the kahr trigger pulls are actually longer than they used to be, and they were seriously long to being with. not sure if it's all models, or just the one i looked though.

by the time you get done pulling the trigger, the police will be there to save you from the robber

I'm betting you're in the minority with this statement. Kahr's (IMO) have the best DAO triggers on the market today. Maybe you got a hold of a bad one?

Pilot
June 17, 2011, 07:12 AM
The Kahr's trigger as well as other DAO triggers are what keep me from buying them. I am sure I could get used to it, but then I'd be trained for something different from ALL my other pistols.

I echo the recommendation on the HK P7. Bite the bullet and spend the $600 - $700 for a nice, used surplus PSP, and get a good holster for it. You will be amazed. Either that, or a Walther PPS for about the same $$$, should work nicely, and will be a bit easier to carry due to less weight.

usp9
June 17, 2011, 07:32 AM
the kahr trigger pulls are actually longer than they used to be...

That statement is not accurate. Until recently all Kahrs except the K series had the same trigger. The K9 and K40 did come standard with a longer pull and was offered with the standard shorter pull trigger as an option. That feature has now been reversed, with the standard trigger now the norm and the longer pull as the option. This applied only to the "K" models.

So now, all Kahrs are produced with the shorter pull trigger as the standard.

rellascout
June 17, 2011, 08:50 AM
Springfield EMP 9mm would fit the bill. Pricey at around $1000 depending on your market but it is a quality 1911 like pistol built from the ground up for the 9mm and 40 S&W round.

kokapelli
June 17, 2011, 09:49 AM
Get what works best for you but I purchased a PM9 because of the trigger and it works great for me.

Skylerbone
June 17, 2011, 10:54 AM
In my oversized hands the CW9 seems to have a longer pull than it should. Reality tells me my hand simply wants more LOP. It's the same sensation when I pick up a 1911 with a short trigger exacerbated by the Kahr's small frame.

Considering its intended use and the distance involved I feel if you can get a secure grip on it and see the sights it will work well enough. My wife's first trip to the range involved my father instructing her to shoot as fast as she could at the 7 yard line into the target. She put 6 shots (DA .357 mag. revolver) inside 6" in an estimated 6 seconds.

The Kahr is more than accurate enough even for those who struggle with the trigger a bit and when you factor in reliability, cost and concealability there's no need to seek out a pocket pistol that you can shoot tiny groups with. Use your range time with it to draw, present and shoot quickly.

averagebear
June 17, 2011, 08:03 PM
Skylerbone, you called it. I am expecting a longer LOP and my hand just isn't finding it. I have dry-fired about a thousand times and put 400 rounds downrange and the CW9 does not fit me. After a lot of trigger time with full-size pistols, my hand/memory thing is looking for a larger LOP and a larger grip. My previous EDCs have been a Sig 239, several flavors of 1911s and a Glock 23. They all feel superb, but I want to downsize. If there was a lightweight version of the Sig, now that would be the ticket.

Apocalypse-Now
June 18, 2011, 12:26 AM
That statement is not accurate. Until recently all Kahrs except the K series had the same trigger. The K9 and K40 did come standard with a longer pull and was offered with the standard shorter pull trigger as an option. That feature has now been reversed, with the standard trigger now the norm and the longer pull as the option. This applied only to the "K" models.


i see, so they dumped the ridiculously long pull. smart move.

usp9
June 18, 2011, 08:46 AM
Great Point About LOP

Perhaps one of the commonly available grip sleeves would help fill your hand and improve the feel of the gun. It helps me get a more comfortable and natural feeling grip. The Hogue has a fair palm swell incorporated in, so maybe it would be worth trying before dumping your CW9.

Johannes_Paulsen
June 18, 2011, 08:58 AM
Just curious -for the people recommending the EMP, what is the trigger action on that like? Is it a smooth pull like the Kahr?

Apocalypse-Now
June 18, 2011, 12:24 PM
Just curious -for the people recommending the EMP, what is the trigger action on that like? Is it a smooth pull like the Kahr?

around 4lbs, and MUCH short pull length. same as most other 1911's. :)

Skylerbone
June 18, 2011, 03:20 PM
Comparing the EMP isn't really playing fair. For those not familiar with the 1911 trigger picture having two small sticks in front of you. The first is dried out and when you attempt to break it, it snaps crisply. The second is a bit green and bends to resist your effort but eventually yields just the same.

A 1911 should snap crisply with little movement before or after and generally speaking with less than 5 lbs. of resistance. When properly set up, that weight seems somehow much lighter than what the scale indicates.

If you're familiar with rifle triggers it's a close comparison.

siggy
June 18, 2011, 04:55 PM
It is funny hearing all the complaints about a kahr trigger. I made my decision on the Kahr over the Sig 239 because of the trigger. I think that my k40 has one of the smoothest triggers I have ever used. The general view is that the Kahr has one of the best DA triggers in the business and I tend to agree. I have the elite trigger so I do not know what the longer pull triggers are like so I can only comment on mine. I am still not sold on any plastic guns but if I were to get one it would be the p40 in the blackened stainless. (with the elite trigger)

larryh1108
June 18, 2011, 06:01 PM
I'm with the group that loves the Kahr trigger. For a DAO, nothing beats it. Maybe I'm nuts, but don't you pull the trigger thru the break, not creep to it? It seems like a lot of shooters slowly pull the trigger until they feel the resistance before the break (staging). IMO, that takes too long, especially in a SD situation. If you want a range gun then you buy a totally different gun for that purpose. For a SD pistol, their triggers are as good as it gets for a DAO. I also like the slip on sleeve for my XL hands.

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/Kahr%20Arms/KahrPM9right1.jpg

gofastman
June 18, 2011, 06:09 PM
Taurus 709 slim

I dont really care for DAO triggers

hardluk1
June 19, 2011, 10:07 AM
I also so like the DA pull on the kahr but i can see for people with large hands or SA only shooters it might be to small or just not work well for them. I grew up shooting SA/DA revolvers and carried a small revolver for 22 + years so for me I think it is a very good trigger. We all have to find what works best. Both of my Kahrs triggers break between 5 and 5.6 oz now and thats fine. I own both a CW9 and CM9 model

Skylerbone
June 19, 2011, 10:33 AM
It's not so much a complaint about the Kahr trigger but switching from an S&W L Frame to the lost it in my palm CW takes some practice. I suppose a leather heel and a wrap might do the trick for those of us who cannot shrink our hands.

If you cannot picture what is happening then picture the opposite. Imagine a 4 year old trying to reach the trigger on a 686.

Sox
June 19, 2011, 10:57 AM
The PPS is currently available as thin, shorter reset. Voila!

Coming soon: the Bersa BP9cc and also in .40. Go to Bersa's website and scope them out. They are due soon, just waiting on ATF's approval. These should be fantastic if its like other Bersas.

The Caracal Subcompact, next year. This is going to be 23.5mm wide, in subcompact format, yet hold 13 rounds with a flush fit magazine, and with adapter, it will be able to accommodate the full size mags as well. This has the absolute shortest reset I have every encountered. It specs as an 8mm pull, but that is initially. This gun will rock.

The HK P7 really shouldn't have been included, as it is too dated. Yeah in the 70's and 80's it was trim, but by today's standards it is clunky, heavy, nothing special.

usp9
June 19, 2011, 11:21 AM
The HK P7 really shouldn't have been included, as it is too dated. Yeah in the 70's and 80's it was trim, but by today's standards it is clunky, heavy, nothing special.

So when the OP said;

"Is there a pistol the size of the Kahr with a much shorter trigger pull? I'm a lefty, so any suggested pistol needs to be lefty-friendly. Any action type would be acceptable, if it has a - better for me - trigger"

...he really meant something else?

Rail Driver
June 19, 2011, 11:22 AM
+1 on the EMP. I don't own one, but it's probably the nicest 9mm I've ever shot.

hardluk1
June 19, 2011, 02:13 PM
Skylerbone I understand. It takes some time to find just the right handgun for each person. I grew up shooting revolvers and then staterted carry'n a small frame taurus. Take a while to like it. if your a big tall guy would can hide about any handgun on your body. You might want onlt a sa 1911 or there new again 10mm delta pistol. Just got to try till your find what each likes best. I still hunt with a DW 44 mag and 357 but now carry a nice small pistol. But I do have 26 years of carry'n small guns and one thing has never changed for me. Double Action only. Being profisient with different types of handguns is just takeing time to shot.

9mmepiphany
June 19, 2011, 04:18 PM
So when the OP said;

"Is there a pistol the size of the Kahr with a much shorter trigger pull? I'm a lefty, so any suggested pistol needs to be lefty-friendly. Any action type would be acceptable, if it has a - better for me - trigger"

...he really meant something else?

I'm reading this and thinking he should be looking at a H&K P7 too...it's grip would certainly help fill his hands. If the PSP or M8 are still too small, the M13 should be perfect

Skylerbone
June 19, 2011, 05:45 PM
A few reference photos for fun. I haven't had to master the Kahr, bought it for my father but I have put roughly 50 rounds through it. The target was mortally wounded but it wasn't my finest hour. Pops kept it to a 3" group at 15 yards and preferred it to my Smith both trigger wise and shooting wise.

Colt Govt. 1911 and Kahr CW9
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=135128&d=1296282226

S&W M&P 9c and Kahr CW9
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=134622&d=1295665205

The M&P is shown with the large insert making it look much fatter than the Kahr but it does slim down a tad bit with the smaller one.

I still say keep it, train out to 15 yards and so long as you're on paper it will get the job done. More practice, smaller paper.

averagebear
June 20, 2011, 12:35 AM
I've sent something north of 500,000 rounds downrange, many of them thanks to US taxpayers. Looking back, most of the triggers were single action. My action order of preference is single action, traditional double action, striker double action, then double action only.

Now, I think something like a Walther P99c or Taurus 709 could be the way to go. These pistols may be small enough to suit my size requirements. My favorite pistols that we currently have are a Beretta PX-4, Taurus 1911, Kimber 1911, a Sig P239, and Taurus Millenium Pro.

If it was slimmer and didn't have batwing, fingerbiting safeties, the TDA Beretta PX-4 would be a great choice. Oh, hell, there are so many almost-right pistols for me. Damn. Decisions, decisions.

Skylerbone
June 20, 2011, 01:09 AM
Here's a reference pic of what's happening with us big mitt guys. The Kahr's trigger breaks very close to the frame so picture how far we have to scrunch up that trigger finger. It almost qualifies as a bayonet!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=144211&d=1308546046

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2011, 02:34 AM
Your fingers aren't that much longer than mine (less than the length of the slide lock notch in the slide)...I have my trigger finger slightly curled
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_2060.jpg

With your arm at you side, is the middle of the slide in line with your elbow? The Kahr seems slightly rotated outboard.

If you extend you index finger slightly away from the side of the frame, your trigger finger won't be as cramped

Skylerbone
June 20, 2011, 06:29 PM
Used my phone for the pic at stretched arms length, that's why my nails were turning color. My wrist was bent to nearly 90 degrees to get the shot (not the best form).

Still strongly considering buying one for myself, especially at the price. I wouldn't use it for hostage rescue but that's my shooting and no fault of the pistol. I think I would consider a sleeve of some sort if it comes to that though I normally prefer nothing that might interfere with function be it mag release or mag changes.

usp9
June 21, 2011, 06:46 AM
I think I would consider a sleeve of some sort if it comes to that though I normally prefer nothing that might interfere with function be it mag release or mag changes.
Here's a picture of the Pachmayr sleeve which is short enough that it won't interfere with the mag release or mag changes. There are several styles of sleeve available. So long as it's the proper size it shouldn't be a problem. That's a P9, same size as the CW9.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Kahr/002.jpg

gotigers
June 21, 2011, 08:44 AM
Walther PPS. I've had mine 16 months and put 1200+ round thru it. No issue. It is accurate and i can shoot it all day. Very comfortable compact to shoot.

Mudinyeri
June 21, 2011, 03:24 PM
If you're used to striker-fired pistols like Glocks, XD variants and the like, you'll probably like the Walther PPS more than you will the Kahr. The PPS is a nice quality gun with a very slender profile.

With that said, let's talk about accuracy for just a moment. Exactly how inaccurate are you with the Kahr? Are you able to put a full magazine +1 into a 6" circle at 7-10 yards? If so, that's what I would call "battlefield expedient" - meaning, you'll be able to stop a threat in a self-defense scenario.

On the other hand, if you're trying to shoot the bullseye out of an NRA pistol target at 25 yards, there are some techniques (some discussed in this thread) that can help you improve your accuracy when shooting a double-action trigger.

Andrew Wyatt
June 21, 2011, 04:44 PM
you're probably SOL unless you want to pay a lot of money or compromise on your thin requirement.

The Browning Hi Power and the G19 have shorter trigger pulls than the Kahr.

the BHP can be got with ambi safety, and the G19 is a glock.

Pilot
June 22, 2011, 07:52 AM
Walther PPS. I've had mine 16 months and put 1200+ round thru it. No issue. It is accurate and i can shoot it all day. Very comfortable compact to shoot.


That is good to hear, and I have heard similar reports from many others. The PPS is on my short list. What sticks in my craw is that it is $200 more than a comparable Kahr.

If you enjoyed reading about "Thin 9mm w/ Shorter Trigger Pull than Kahr" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!