[GrandmasterB]

If you had a chance to pick up a S&W 99 in .40 S&W for $300, or a Gen 2 Glock 22 for $325, which would you get and why? Both would come with 2 mags.

[REAPER4206969]

Glock 22, no contest.

It doesn't even need an explanation.

[AZ Hawkeye]

Glock 22, no contest.

It doesn't even need an explanation.
Agreed. I'd pick that G22 up in a heartbeat.

[Apocalypse-Now]

g22.

[Scimmia]

SW99. I'm not a fan of the Glock trigger system, I prefer a DA/SA setup.

[towboat_er]

SW99!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shaolink9]

Im stuck in the same boat !!! I kinda am leaning towards the smith simply because everyone else has a glock...

[Taurus_9mm]

The G22.

[Tape]

Glock 22

[ugaarguy]

SW99 has the 19 degree grip angle found on almost all handguns except Glocks, but it has that funky trigger guard mag release only found on HK & Walther pistols. Glock has a conventional mag release, but has the funky 17 degree grip angle found on almost no other pistol. Pick your poison. I don't even like Glocks, but I'd take the conventional mag release it offers. It'll also be easier to sell if you don't like it.

[REAPER4206969]

Everyone else has a Glock for a reason.

[ugaarguy]

Actually, if it was me, since I'm pretty sure I know whereyou're looking, I'd take the very underrated S&W 4046 for $295. But that's just my preference.

[Doxiedad]

Glock 22 without a doubt

[AZ Hawkeye]

Everyone else has a Glock for a reason.
Truth. ^^

[lechiffre]

I would (and did) get a SW99.

Better trigger, more comfortable more pointable more accurate (for me).

[Smaug]

I bet the folks who are voting Glock 22 have never even tried a Walther P99/ S&W SW99. (same gun) It is not a re-worked Sigma, which have tough triggers, by all accounts. It is a P99 with slight cosmetic changes. It is a big difference, but only someone open-minded enough to try it would ever find out.

These are a best buy in used guns these days. That is the great thing about previous generation S&W pistols: they may no longer be stylish, but they are always solid and reliable.

In the case of the SW99 vs. Glock, in my experience, the ergonomics and trigger are FAR superior on the SW99.

[vaherder]

Agree w/Smaug. A SW 99 is superior to any Glock pistol. Not even close.
Same can be said about the P99AS, PPQ, P99C AS and PPS. And yeah I have shot every Glock made and everything Walther has put out since the end of WWII.

How many of you Glock fan boys had any expereince with SW99 or P99AS?

[wild cat mccane]

SW99 all the way, but remember the .40 is reported to be flippy.


The AS trigger on the P99 I had was fantastic. The glocks I have shot have zero feedback on their triggers.

Also the AS single action trigger has almost zero reset. You have to try it to understand.

[fastbolt]

Personally, having already faced that decision some years ago, I went with the SW99. I don't regret the decision ... but ...

That was before S&W helped Walther finally identify the magazine issue which was involved in the premature slide lock occurring with a number of the P99 & SW99 .40's (which resulted in a magazine body and follower design change), and before they started polishing their extractors, so I had to work through the changes and revisions. S&W did make some interesting changes and improvements to their own barrels, too.

On the other hand, at about the same time the G22 was receiving its magazine spring revision so it would function better with weapon-mounted lights, and the magazines and followers were being improved (upgraded, etc).

Glock parts were more easily obtained and cost less, although S&W was very liberal with providing LE armorers with any repair parts at no cost. Walther parts are not exactly inexpensive if bought retail. The sear housing block, in which the ejector is molded, costs about $100 to replace once the Walther 1-year warranty expires if it has to be replaced for a broken ejector. for example.

I carried an issued SW9940 for a few years once they ironed out the minor bugs, and I still have a SW9940 of my own. I've fired many thousands of rounds through SW99's, mostly chambered in .40, although I've fired upwards of 11,000 rounds through my SW999c.

As an armorer and owner of both ... I prefer both guns made in 9mm instead of .40 S&W ... but that's just me.

The 99 design is not quite as easy to repair from the armorer's perspective, perhaps.

A rolled steel pin holds the locking block in place, which in turn holds the slide stop spring in place. The sear housing block can disassemble itself to the extent one of the pins can fall out if it's tipped the wrong way during a detailed disassembly (or when the housing block is shipped separately as a repair part :banghead: ), and a lever & spring can be a bit tricky to reinstall if that happens. The barrel lock spring can be installed incorrectly and damage the edge of the spring hole in the frame, as well as allowing the spring to become kinked. The original rear sight base design could be a bit loose, being held in place only by the ears of the sight base plunger, and those plunger ears were sometimes susceptible to impact damage. There is a potential dimensional variation among the trigger bar guides used in the different models. Little things.

I prefer the grip angle of the 99 series, although the rudimentary grip backstrap inserts weren't nearly as friendly, ergonomically, as later efforts in other guns.

Either gun, if in good condition and normal repair, ought to be fine for its intended purpose, though.

I also have a preference for the original 99 trigger (now called the Anti-Stress), myself, over the Quick Action or the DAO. Then again, I tend to prefer a good traditional double action (DA/SA) trigger design right behind a good single action trigger (1911) in a working pistol. The 99's typically seemed to settle in to a great trigger in that respect as they became "worn in" from use.

I can't speak to what either gun might cost in any other geographical area market.

Luck to you in your decision.

[AZ Hawkeye]

Agree w/Smaug. A SW 99 is superior to any Glock pistol. Not even close.
Same can be said about the P99AS, PPQ, P99C AS and PPS. And yeah I have shot every Glock made and everything Walther has put out since the end of WWII.

How many of you Glock fan boys had any expereince with SW99 or P99AS?
Blanket statements are always cool, especially when it's a subjective topic...

How many militaries, special forces and law enforcement agencies are using Walther?

How many of them have been torture tested to 100,000 rounds? How many were run over by trucks or soaked in salt water, mud, sand, rain, extreme cold, extreme heat, etc., etc.

If I was so worried about having "perfect" ergonomics, I'd be carrying my HK P30 every day, as the P30's ergonomics are in a league of their own; in my opinion, the P30/HK45 has the greatest ergonomics of any pistol ever made.

Does that make it a "far superior" pistol to the Walther P99? In my opinion, who cares... There are far more law enforcement agencies using the HK P30 than all Walther pistols combined.

You can call us fan boys, or whatever other insult you want, but saying that a Walther (especially most any Walther) is "superior to any Glock pistol" is silly.

[Scimmia]

I always laugh when Glock fans boast about how many LE agencies use them. McDonald's sells untold number of hamburgers every day, does that make them any better?

[HK Jake]

I always laugh when Glock fans boast about how many LE agencies use them. McDonald's sells untold number of hamburgers every day, does that make them any better?
...And? Does it make them any worse?

Glock bashers are so boring. It's the same old crap all the time, and the best part is there is no real insult you can throw at a Glock because they are a wonderful tool and perform as well or better than any autoloader ever made.

Sure, you can say you don't like the trigger, but it's a subjective argument.

You can say it's ugly (and I'll agree, but I also think XDs and M&Ps are ugly, and this P99 sure is a weird looking gun), but it's a subjective argument.

You can't call it unreliable or complicated, you can't fault their innovation as without Glock, we wouldn't have near the variety of the excellent polymer pistols that we currently have.

The truth is this: Glock pistols are so reliable and so durable, that countless military special forces groups use them. Some "special" American military personnel are given Glock 19's for concealed carry purposes while deployed. The German GSG-9, an elite counter-terrorism and spec-ops unit, carries the Glock 17, which deeply pains me, as they should be carrying an HK!

Comparing Glock handguns to McDonald's cheeseburgers is, well, seriously bro? In every test I've seen performed by federal agencies (yes, they test all options before choosing one), Glock always performs the best, followed by M&P in second.

So, continue with all your empty insults, because there is no possible way you can prove a Walther is a better firearm than a Glock.

[Scimmia]

...And? Does it make them any worse?

When did I ever say they were worse? All I've said is that I don't like the Glock trigger system and the childish "everyone is doing it" argument is best left to 5 year olds. You can argue reliability, I have no problem with that, but claiming they're better just because everyone uses them is a joke.

[HK Jake]

When did I ever say they were worse? All I've said is that I don't like the Glock trigger system and the childish "everyone is doing it" argument is best left to 5 year olds. You can argue reliability, I have no problem with that, but claiming they're better just because everyone uses them is a joke.

I never said you did, but comparing Glock to McDonald's in the context you presented is construed as an insult.

It always, always, always depends on the reason as to why "everyone is doing it."

Do people buy Toyota vehicles because "everyone is doing it," or because they are usually very reliable?

I would bet it can be one or the other, or a little bit of both. It makes it neither childish nor stupid...

[Strykervet]

I'd get the Smith for one reason only: That Glock is a 2gen .40 weapon. That is the model with the most problems with the unsupported chamber --they fixed it in the 3rd gen. models, or at least changed it some. That said, I like my 2gen G17. 9mm doesn't really have that issue.

[Scimmia]

I never said you did, but comparing Glock to McDonald's in the context you presented is construed as an insult.

I wasn't trying to imply that Glocks are similar to McDonalds, I was just trying to convey that popular does not necessarily mean better.

[jawn]

Glock: Over a billion (rounds of ammunition) served.

[Doxiedad]

Let's try and avoid personal attacks so this thread doesn't get locked...

[Apocalypse-Now]

That Glock is a 2gen .40 weapon. That is the model with the most problems with the unsupported chamber

i have a $1,000+ 1911 with less chamber support than any glock, including gen2. i've only heard one case of someone blowing one up with bad reloads on 1911 forum.

you can have "match grade" chamber dimensions, or utter reliability with anything. you can't have both. shoot quality ammo through it, you'll be fine.

[TonyT]

I shoot the S&W99 in 9mm and I am impressed with it's reliability and accuracy for such a short barreled pistol. I actually prefer the unique ambidextrous mag release of the S&W99/WaltherP99 over the standard mag release. I also shoot a Glock 17 in 9mm but prefer the trigger pull and ergonomics of the S&W99.

[REAPER4206969]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with GEN2 .40 Glock's. Hundreds of PD's still use them, including the DEA.

Also, I'm not saying the 99 is bad, all I'm saying is that for the same price, choosing a mostly obscure half breed pistol over the industry standard may not be the wisest choice.

[Quentin]

I'd go with the Glock 22 Gen2. In fact I just did a month ago, a LE trade in for $350. Excellent pistol, accurate, reliable and has working night sights. It has quickly won my trust and now is my HD gun.

Sixteen rounds of .40S&W in a reliable gun does it for me. And that's a few more rounds than the SW99 carries.

[B_Li_Ber_Tar_Ian]

I've owned a g19 and a 990l. I'd take the 99 all day long. For me the ergos of the 99 were far superior. YMMV.

[jon_in_wv]

How many of them have been torture tested to 100,000 rounds? How many were run over by trucks or soaked in salt water, mud, sand, rain, extreme cold, extreme heat, etc., etc.



:rolleyes:

And how many of those test were done side by side with the competition?? Most pistols do just as well at those tests. Its hype for people who don't know better.

[Chris Rhines]

I would avoid pre-Gen4 .40 Glock pistols. There have been many well-documented cases of premature parts breakage and functioning problems, limited to the .40 guns only. There's no guarantee that you'll get a bad one, but the odds are greater.

So of the choices you mention, I'd take the SW99, which seems to be a pretty serviceable gun. But I'd take a Gen3 Glock 17 over either...

-C

[Apocalypse-Now]

There have been many well-documented cases of premature parts breakage and functioning problems, limited to the .40 guns only. There's no guarantee that you'll get a bad one, but the odds are greater.


plz provide us with some of this documentation.....

[Chris Rhines]

The reliability and parts breakage problems with .40S&W Glocks were related to me, verbally, by three different professional firearms instructors. They all said roughly the same things:

- They've seen thousands of Glock pistols fire hundreds of thousands of rounds in their classes.
- The .40S&W Glocks had a significantly higher malfunction rate, and more parts breakages, than the 9mm Glocks, or than service pistols taken as a whole.

-C

[group17]

Both guns are great pieces.
Would come down to what feels best in hand or which was in better shape with less wear. I own the G27 and Walther P99c and love them both.

[AZ Hawkeye]

I would avoid pre-Gen4 .40 Glock pistols. There have been many well-documented cases of premature parts breakage and functioning problems, limited to the .40 guns only. There's no guarantee that you'll get a bad one, but the odds are greater.

So of the choices you mention, I'd take the SW99, which seems to be a pretty serviceable gun. But I'd take a Gen3 Glock 17 over either...

-C
The Gen 3 Glock .40 cal handguns are perfectly fine. I own two of them, and I have a few instructors who own and carry them as well. One of those instructors is a Glock armorer, and he can't recommend any better duty/carry handgun than the Glock 22/23. They had issues very early on, but they were few and far between. They are even more scarce now. I know a guy who hasn't cleaned his Glock 22 in over 5,000 rounds, and it still functions perfectly fine. (The majority of those rounds were also shot in the desert, so it wasn't a "clean" indoor range type environment).

Even had I not known the above, your post bugs me for a couple of reasons.

1) The .357 SIG Glocks are virtually identical to the .40 S&W Glocks, the only real difference being the barrel.

2) .357 SIG places more stress on a handgun than a .40 S&W due to the higher operating pressures. .357 SIG operates at ~ 40,000 PSI, whereas .40 S&W operates at ~ 35,000 PSI.

3) Considering the above, and if we took your post at face value, we'd expect to see the same or similar issues in the .357 SIG Glocks, and we'd expect to see them with increased frequency due to the higher operating pressures. We, however, do not see these "issues" in Gen 3 .357 SIG Glocks.

I won't deny that the .40 S&W Glocks may have slightly more issues per capita than the 9x19mm Glocks, as the 9x19mm Gen 3 Glock 17 and 19 are two of the finest autoloading pistols ever made in terms of reliability. However, your post suggests your "professional instructors" have some statistical analysis of "service pistols as a whole," and I'm sure most of us would love to see this. You can't just say, "The .40S&W Glocks had a significantly higher malfunction rate, and more parts breakages, than the 9mm Glocks, or than service pistols taken as a whole," and not have some type of evidence to back it up.

I could say exactly the same thing because I often shoot with or around peace officers from the Phoenix area and surrounding suburbs who nearly ALL carry Glock 22 or 23 and a backup 27. Considering this, it would be easy for me to say that I've seen more malfunctions in Glock 22/23/27 than any other handgun because I see only these guns 95% of the time.

(FWIW, I have yet to see a Glock 22 or 23 have a part breakage or major malfunction, and I shoot twice a week around these guys).

[Chris Rhines]

While I'm certainly glad that your personal .40S&W Glocks are running well, I stand by both my statement and my recommendation. Note that I have personally owned three .40S&W Glock handguns myself, and they were nearly 100% reliable over the course of three years/50,000 rounds.

That said, the instructors that I referred to have a much greater sample size than you or I, by far. If someone who has had over a thousand .40 Glocks run through his classes says that they tend to be less reliable, and another someone who works as a purchasing coordinator for a large west-coast police department says the same thing, I tend to take them at their word.

I said nothing at all about any statistical analysis. I doubt that any such data exists, save maybe for current issue U.S. military issue weapons. What my instructors described was the personal observation of a trend.

You can take me at my word, or you can ignore my advice, or you can do some additional research of your own if you feel the need. I truly don't care, one way or the other.

-C

[AZ Hawkeye]

While I'm certainly glad that your personal .40S&W Glocks are running well, I stand by both my statement and my recommendation. Note that I have personally owned three .40S&W Glock handguns myself, and they were nearly 100% reliable over the course of three years/50,000 rounds.

That said, the instructors that I referred to have a much greater sample size than you or I, by far. If someone who has had over a thousand .40 Glocks run through his classes says that they tend to be less reliable, and another someone who works as a purchasing coordinator for a large west-coast police department says the same thing, I tend to take them at their word.

I said nothing at all about any statistical analysis. I doubt that any such data exists, save maybe for current issue U.S. military issue weapons. What my instructors described was the personal observation of a trend.

You can take me at my word, or you can ignore my advice, or you can do some additional research of your own if you feel the need. I truly don't care, one way or the other.

-C
I look at it this way: If you start driving a new Jeep, you tend to feel or notice that there are more Jeeps on the road than you've ever realized. (I've driven over 100 different makes and models of cars, and this always, always, always holds true). There isn't actually more Jeeps on the road, it's just that you've begun to notice and recognize them whereas before you may not have noticed. It's subconscious bias.

The same is true in this situation. I brought up the Phoenix and suburbs PD's because almost all of them carry Glock 22s and 23s. The "purchasing coordinator" for the Phoenix PD is likely to say that there are more malfunctions in Glock 22s and 23s because that's all they've carried since the early 2000's.

I did not mean to suggest your or they were lying, as I also believe 9mm Glocks have less issues than .40 S&W Glocks. The Glock 17/19 is one of the more reliable autoloaders ever made. It's just hard to say that one is having "significantly" more issues without having some type of data to go along with it, especially per capita data.

However, if we are speaking about Gen 4 Glocks, it's the exact opposite. According to a poll on another forum, 30% of Gen 4 9mm owners have had some type of issue with their firearm compared to only 5% of Gen 4 .40 owners.

(Now that I've written all this, I'm not sure why I even care! Haha! Sorry if I offended you in any way as that was not my intent!)

[Apocalypse-Now]

And how many of those test were done side by side with the competition?? Most pistols do just as well at those tests. Its hype for people who don't know better.

find me another pistol that can handle 328,228 rounds (fired by hirtenberger) and still run, like the gen1 g17 that is on display at glock's austrian factory. ;)

[REAPER4206969]

When .40 Glock's are the most common LE pistol on the continent, of course you're going to see more problems with them.

[REAPER4206969]

compared to only 5% of Gen 4 .40 owners.

Oakland, CA PD just recalled their GEN4 22's and went back to their GEN3 22's due to problems with the new guns.

[jon_in_wv]

find me another pistol that can handle 328,228 rounds (fired by hirtenberger) and still run, like the gen1 g17 that is on display at glock's austrian factory.

Wow, now all you have to do is pretend that its the highest round count of any pistol in the world and none of the 1911s shooting millions of rounds in competition all these years are capable of anything like that. Or any of the other manufacturers pistols which are similar could possibly do the same. Like I said, they put out a press release, make a big deal out of it, and people who don't know better lap it up.

[Walking Dead]

Glock, if I wanted a Walther I would buy a Walther.

[Apocalypse-Now]

Wow, now all you have to do is pretend that its the highest round count of any pistol in the world and none of the 1911s shooting millions of rounds in competition all these years are capable of anything like that. Or any of the other manufacturers pistols which are similar could possibly do the same. Like I said, they put out a press release, make a big deal out of it, and people who don't know better lap it up.

plz show us an example of a 1911 that's had "millions" of documented full power rounds through it with no major parts failures, so we can "lap it up" like you. ;)

[fastbolt]

Glock, if I wanted a Walther I would buy a Walther.

Pretty sensible answer, allowing for the brand names to be switched around to suit the preferences and desires of the potential purchaser. ;)

Brand loyalists used to puzzle me, but now I generally just ignore them when they go on and on about why their preferred choice is "better" or "best". Everyone is certainly entitled to spend their money as they see fit. Why not?

Having been a firearms instructor for over 20 years, and having been to a fair number of various armorer classes for different firearms (17 factory classes, and a couple of non-factory classes, including many recerts), I've seen my fair share of things occur on live-fire ranges, and off the range, with most of the guns used for common defensive use/service.

I've also listened to my fair share of other instructors and armorers discuss their experiences, as well as having listened to many armorer instructors, repair technicians, gunsmiths, engineers, sales reps, folks who proctored "tests" of various makes/models, vendors & LE distributors, etc, listening to their experiences over the years.

It can be rather surprising sometimes to consider the range of experiences which can be heard from a lot of different instructors and armorers over time, too. It's not hard to find examples of the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" outlook when getting together in a room filled with firearms instructors and armorers. Quite often you can find folks wanting to trade out of one brand/model to something being used by another agency ... who is just as interested in getting rid that make/model and going to what the other agency is wanting to get rid of. :scrutiny: :neener:

If I felt someone made an ideal, perfect, does-it-all type of handgun which was infallible and would be perfect for all my needs, that's the only make/model I'd own and use.

I own and use a number of makes & models, though ...

I remember when my former agency was preparing to replace our existing, aging inventory with new guns. I carefully remained away from the actual selection process, leaving it to a pretty diverse group of folks chosen to conduct test-fire and evaluation, and the folks who evaluated their results and made the actual decision. I dodged all questions about my personnel preferences and remained impartial when helping proctor the T&E sessions. I made it fairly well known that I had no concern which make/model/caliber(s) were eventually selected. My only concern was that I had the training, tools and parts necessary to maintain, support and repair whatever was finally chosen. It didn't matter whether it was line level staff or command/admin staff asking me about my opinion. I basically told them to pick whatever they felt best met the needs of our whole agency, and I'd be on board with using it myself, as well as helping maintain, support and repair it, as may be necessary. (It became almost a mantra for a while. ;) )

I stopped being what amounts to a "brand loyalist" a number of years ago, myself. Doesn't much bother me if other folks are that way, though. Different strokes ...

[jon_in_wv]

plz show us an example of a 1911 that's had "millions" of documented full power rounds through it with no major parts failures, so we can "lap it up" like you.

First show me where I said one 1911 had "millions' of documented full power rounds through it and I'd be happy to. Until then I don't think I need to prove things I didn't say. Strange that you can make any claim you like with no documentation but anyone else has to document everything. Why don't you document your claims first if we are required to document our responses. That shouldn't be too much trouble right?

[jon_in_wv]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/985

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2186

http://pistol-training.com/

Oddly enough the Glock has 4 more stoppages in 19,000 rounds than the M&P did is 62,000 and is catching up on what the P30 did in over 70,000. The fact is these test don't prove a whole lot for the average shooter who won't shoot a fraction of that amount of ammo through their weapon. The idea a Glock is SOOO much better because of tests like these just hasn't played out in reality, objectively that is.

Either pistol the OP is looking at is just fine. You really need to figure out which on fits you better and pick the one you want. What others prefer is really pointless in this case.

[Apocalypse-Now]

^^that's not proof of a 1911, or any other gun that's had 328,000 rounds through it.


another thing you failed to mention, all of tod greene's gen4 issues were resolved with a simple extractor change, which i had to do on my gen4 & gen3 as well. it's been well documented that glock's been putting out bad extractors for a while now, but it's only a $10 part, and an easy fix.


fail.

[jon_in_wv]

Neither have you proven a Glock had that either, FAIL. Nor have you proven a P99 or other pistol in that exact same test couldn't do the exact same thing. Double fail.

I'll give you one more chance.

[Apocalypse-Now]

Neither have you proven a Glock had that either, FAIL.

orly?


here ya go! (as documented by hirtenberger and on display at the glock factory) ;) :

http://www.cybershooters.org/IWA2000/Glock17.JPG


you all done now with your baseless argument? LMAO

[Apocalypse-Now]

:D:D

[jon_in_wv]

No, my original argument was and still is, though you choose to ignore it, whether a Glock did whatever the hype of the day claims does NOTHING to prove whether or not any other weapon is capable of the same thing. Glock torture tests are not done head to head for a reason. Glock says, "our gun was frozen and still fired" or "it fired underwater" or "it fired after being in the snow" and the people who don't know better ASSUME no other gun can do the same. I provided links where a Glock was subjected to the same test its competitors were subjected to and fared NO BETTER. To you it makes my claims baseless because I don't ASSUME the results you do. So be it.

[jon_in_wv]

:banghead::banghead::banghead::p

See, emoticons didn't make me any more or less correct either.