Kahr P380 VS Sig P238


PDA






bimmerland
June 20, 2011, 06:36 PM
OK... Last question... Kahr weighs 9.97oz and Sig weighs 15oz. Which one would you pick for the lightest recoil. That's all I ask of you.

Thanks

If you enjoyed reading about "Kahr P380 VS Sig P238" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
dogtown tom
June 20, 2011, 06:50 PM
It's not as much an opinion as it is a fact.
Same cartridge, same operating system (locked breech) and being heavier and larger means the Sig238 will have less felt recoil.





Edited to add:

I have a Colt Mustang (the Sig 238 is a copy) and Government Model .380's.......love them. But given a choice between a Kahr P380 I'll take the Kahr any day. The Sig 238 is just too big for a micro .380.........it's larger/heavier/fatter than the P380 and pretty much identical in size/weight to the Kahr PM9 (a 9mm).

9mmepiphany nails it regarding the design flaws of the Mustang/Sig 238. Which is a shame. They LOOK like cute little 1911's but aren't.

bimmerland
June 20, 2011, 07:24 PM
@dogtown tom - thank you for an honest answer. I was very disappointed in comments made by handgunworld.com on their comparison. In Feb they liked the P238 then made a turn around in April. I just don't like waffling from so called experts.

camper
June 20, 2011, 08:29 PM
Have both, much prefer the P380 and the recoil is not that much greater.

LightningMan
June 20, 2011, 09:36 PM
I also have both, and the differance in felt recoil is small, but does favor the Sig P238. FWIW I carry the Kahr P380 nearly 100% of the time and when wearing a bit more clothing the Kahr PM9 is my primary and the P380 becomes a backup, but seldom carry my Sig P238. LM

bimmerland
June 20, 2011, 10:58 PM
@LightningMan - thanks

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2011, 11:14 PM
The addition weight of the 238 dampen muzzle flip...which is what you perceive as recoil. The Kahr counters it's lessor weight by sitting lower in your hand...due to it's patented lower mounting of the barrel. It's lower bore axis, causes the muzzle to flip less than a comparably weighted pistol.

bimmerland
June 20, 2011, 11:23 PM
@9mmepiphany - great advice.. now it helps me with my decision..thanks

9mmepiphany
June 20, 2011, 11:33 PM
If reliability will weigh into your decision...

I have a friend who has been referred to by Michael Bane (Outdoor Channel) as God's own gunsmith, who has been smithing and shooting handguns competitively (including for the H&K and Sig Sauer Pistol teams) for 40 years. His take on the 238 is that he won't work on them, because he guarantees his work for life and his advice when folks ask about them is, "there are a lot of other really nice .380s available (he is very polite). He will say the the 238 has a functional track record, in it's 3 previous lives (FI, Excam, Colt), which has not been comforting. Take it for what it is worth to you

71Commander
June 21, 2011, 07:17 AM
Judge for yourself.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/ksig-02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/ksig-03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/ksig-06.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/ksig-04.jpg

bimmerland
June 21, 2011, 09:10 AM
@71Commander - Thanks for the pics. What am I judging? Recoil, Reliability, CS, Fit, Finish, Accuracy? If I am going to make a decision I need more than pictures to sway me. Looks are not the major factor in my decision. Looks don't save me in a SD situation.

71Commander
June 21, 2011, 09:32 AM
Size.

As to reliability, the Sig will digest any and all ammo without problems. On the other hand, the Kahr only likes ammo with Federal primers. I've sent it back to Kahr two times. I talked to the CS rep and was told that some of the P380 don't like certain brands of ammo. Fortunately I reload.

Jbabbler
June 21, 2011, 10:24 AM
If the Sig was DA/SA it would be the clear choice in my opinion. Fumbling with a thumb safety on a gun that small doesn't interest me a bit.

kokapelli
June 21, 2011, 12:13 PM
What design flaw in the P238? If you take the time to read through the threads related to the P238 you are going to find that most P238 owners love the pistol and have little or no problems with them since the redesigned recoil spring became available.

The P380 is a little smaller and it is lighter and if that is what you want then go for it, but if you want less felt recoil and a 1911 style trigger the P238 is the way to go.

Considering the small number of P380 that have been sold they have had their problems just like the rest of the early micros have had.

bimmerland
June 21, 2011, 01:11 PM
@kokapelli +1 on the Sig P238.

Just got back from the range and put 150 rnds thru it with no issues at all!!! Also bought a second mag which was a colt mustang mag modified the front corner and it performed flawlessly even slide opening after last round every time!!!

An old fart like me cannot stand major recoil and this thing was a kitty cat!!!

Take down is easy and laser took about 15 shots to zero in but after that it never moved for the rest of the time. It does get a little dirty over then lens but a simple swipe of the cloth fixed that. It does not have a pulse setting but that does not bother me. Uses off the shelf batteries (CR1/3N lithium) that you can get for about $3.00 or less if you buy 10 on ebay. Laser must have been on for over an hour today and still has a strong beam.

All in all a fun gun that is not bad for SD.

YMMV

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb408/bimmerland/Mynewtoy001.jpg

kokapelli
June 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
Nice! I like the laser.

mopar92
June 21, 2011, 01:46 PM
I had both and I was sick of the picky ammo of the Kahr. My Sig has 3,000 rounds through it. It's used in CCW classes as well as my summer carry. I log rounds at the classes, so that is not a guessed number. It runs and runs. I still think it's a matter of opinion! Love my Sig, and I have owned and shot both of the guns mentioned...

wally
June 21, 2011, 01:58 PM
As to reliability, the Sig will digest any and all ammo without problems

Not a chance. Mine doesn't work with Wolf at all. My Ruger LCP and S&W Bodyguard 380 both are fine with it.

The the size and weight of the P238 is such that I'd rather carry my Kahr PM40 which is too close in size and weight to settle for carrying only a .380.

The P238 is the best of the mouse guns at the range, no arguments, but its not left hand friendly and when I carry a mouse gun its often for left handed usage.

Recoil only matters at the range, the two folks I know who've fired shots in a SD situation both report never even hearing the gun fire -- let alone be aware of recoil!

Big_John1961
June 21, 2011, 02:09 PM
I agree with other posters; I also have both pistols, and while the Sig may have slightly less felt recoil, the P380 is a very easy shooter as well. It's small, flat profile also lends it to easier pocket carry.

357 Terms
June 21, 2011, 02:47 PM
I dont know anything about the Kahr, but the sig I bought my ex chewed up the brass casings and jammed way too much. She got it in the divorce...... heh heh!
when it shot it shot good, just not even close to reliable enough for my standards.

Prorock
June 21, 2011, 03:01 PM
Never shot the Sig buy my P380 is really a pleasure to shoot (for a micro .380). I have put 150 through it in one range visit with no discomfort at all.

safebustr
June 21, 2011, 05:20 PM
Have the 238 and now over 500 down the pipe with no problems, is it heavy-yes does it work-yes, do I trust it-yes.
Do I carry it every day, no, but I did, am now trying out a LCP for EDC.
I will let you know but for now looks like I will be going back to the 238 because I like the feel of it better.

i loves my gun
June 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
ive had the hots for the 238, but with all this talk about the colt and other relatives having had there problems, has anyone ever had problems with there sig? maybe sig got the drawings and fixed the problem..the man himself might not know that answer..

bimmerland
June 21, 2011, 11:07 PM
@i loves my gun - take a look at my post today #15. Sig was awesome.

9mmepiphany
June 21, 2011, 11:48 PM
ive had the hots for the 238, but with all this talk about the colt and other relatives having had there problems, has anyone ever had problems with there sig? maybe sig got the drawings and fixed the problem..the man himself might not know that answer..
The problem with early 238s was that they used the original design and the recol springs were battering themselves to death...the recoil spring tunnel wasn't long enough and the slide was too light for the amount of travel available...and causing feed problems when the spring was outside it's operating window (as little as 300 rounds).

Sig started making changes to the springs installed to lengthen their lives...however there was nothing that can be done about the slide velocity unless they make it heavier (read wider)

Even with the new springs, their operating window is still pretty small. Your choice is to not shoot it much...and hope it will work when you might need it...or stock up on springs and change them well before their expected useful life is up.

Granted, many folks will never put more than a box of cartridges through their .380 based on the cost alone (that is why I usually recommend a 9mm)...but wouldn't it give more peace of mind to start with a platform that is based on a more optimized design?

kokapelli
June 21, 2011, 11:56 PM
The problem with early 238s was that they used the original design and the recol springs were battering themselves to death...the recoil spring tunnel wasn't long enough and the slide was too light for the amount of travel available...and causing feed problems when the spring was outside it's operating window (as little as 300 rounds).

Sig started making changes to the springs installed to lengthen their lives...however there was nothing that can be done about the slide velocity unless they make it heavier (read wider)

Even with the new springs, their operating window is still pretty small. Your choice is to not shoot it much...and hope it will work when you might need it...or stock up on springs and change them well before their expected useful life is up.

Granted, many folks will never put more than a box of cartridges through their .380 based on the cost alone (that is why I usually recommend a 9mm)...but wouldn't it give more peace of mind to start with a platform that is based on a more optimized design?
My P238 must have not heard this fairytale because it just keeps on shooting without any problems and I see no signs of battering.

i loves my gun
June 21, 2011, 11:57 PM
@9mm - shame they cant get it right, its a great looking pistol and youre right 9mm is the way to go but ive never owned a .380

Edit: reminds me when they first came out with the p22 and it was having problems, sold that one aswell

bimmerland
June 21, 2011, 11:58 PM
@9mmepiphany - according to Sig CS the new flat springs are good for 2000 rounds before replacement. They guy I talked to gave me an extra spring when I ordered my Sig holster with a 20% discount from Sig. In reference to ammo prices there are several vendors that are offering 1000 rounds of .380 for about $240 which is not much more than 1000 rounds of 9MM. If I could find a 9MM as compact and as comfortable as my P238 I would like to stick to one platform.

9mmepiphany
June 22, 2011, 12:43 AM
If I could find a 9MM as compact and as comfortable as my P238 I would like to stick to one platform.
Have you compared it to the Rohrbaugh R9 or even a Kahr PM9?

bimmerland
June 22, 2011, 12:56 AM
@9mmepiphany - not yet but a 9MM that weighs less than a pound might have a very healthy recoil. My G26 is just about at the limit of comfortability but is a little to big for deep conceal.

mopar92
June 22, 2011, 12:59 AM
I too wonder what people do to their guns. I have 3000 rounds of factory loaded police grade ammo and I have maybe had 3 FTF or FTE. I have a very early model, and nothing is battering it to death at all....

Ben86
June 22, 2011, 10:19 AM
@9mmepiphany - not yet but a 9MM that weighs less than a pound might have a very healthy recoil. My G26 is just about at the limit of comfortability but is a little to big for deep conceal.

You might think so, but I can tell you that the pm9 is a joy to shoot. The great ergos and stout recoil spring really soak up the recoil. You should really try one out. If I lived close I'd let you shoot mine.

Big_John1961
June 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
You might think so, but I can tell you that the pm9 is a joy to shoot. The great ergos and stout recoil spring really soak up the recoil. You should really try one out. If I lived close I'd let you shoot mine.

+1 The PM9 is very manageable in the recoil department. I put 200 rounds through mine the other day with zero fatigue and no malfunctions. Fine little pistol.

m2steven
June 22, 2011, 11:03 AM
I have both and shoot them a lot. The sig has a bit less recoil than the kahr. If the SIG were as reliable as the Kahr it would be my preferential SD carry pistol. On occasion it becomes intolerant of most ammo. I don't know what the problem is, it's probably dirt or some other similar problem. It's super accurate and easy to shoot. Plus, it has a safety which is easy on and off. You need it because it really does have a 1911 quality trigger.

However - the Kahr has a different, yet great trigger and the recoil is not worth mentioning in comparison to most little 380's. It's pleasant to shoot, very accurate, and it's smooth and light. It's built like a Swiss Watch. To be honest - so is the SIG.

I think SIG had magazine issues and a guide rod spring problem. Those have probably been resolved. I think mine gets dirty somewhere and usually after a good takedown and spray bath - it shoots very well for a while. However, you never know when it's going to start being choosy. It's still a great pistol though.

bimmerland
June 22, 2011, 12:59 PM
@m2steven - when you say that the recoil of the Kahr P380 is not worth mentioning does that mean it is fairly comfortable compared to my P238. I would like to say with the same platform so a Kahr PM9/CM9 would be my choice. Which one is similar in size to the P380. Also how manageable is the 9MM recoil compared to my G26.

BTW - Sig replaced the coil spring with a flat spring that should last about 2K rounds. They even sent me a spare. I have gone thru 150 rnds so far without any issues.

Thanks all for the help

Ben86
June 22, 2011, 03:43 PM
Also how manageable is the 9MM recoil compared to my G26.

I have a Glock 26 and pm9. Of course the Glock 26 has less recoil because of it's larger size and heavier weight. The wider grip of the Glock really spreads the recoil out over your palm so you don't feel much. That said the pm9 does not have much more recoil. If anything I'd say it's a little more flippy. Much lighter shooting than you would believe by judging by it's small size and light weight. I'll never sell mine.

i loves my gun
June 22, 2011, 03:56 PM
but what if you want single action option o.O? ,cant do that with pm9's, glocks, and some of the other little polymer dudes,.. then you can get into striker fire or not, many things come into play.

m2steven
June 22, 2011, 06:42 PM
Bimmerland: Yes, the Kahr p380 is comfortable to shoot. I have a few 380's that just plain hurt. The Ruger LPC is one of them. I carry it sometimes because it's reliable and accurate. But I never shoot it for fun other than to get it dirty so I can clean it :)

Ala Dan
June 22, 2011, 08:28 PM
Once again, my choice would be the Kahr~! :uhoh: ;) :D

If you enjoyed reading about "Kahr P380 VS Sig P238" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!