[ktmhk53]

Greetings,
The time has come to update my rifles and I am in need of your assistance. I have decided to purchase both a .308 and a .338 Lapua rifle that will see rough, and heavy field use.
Can the $2500.00 price difference between a Sako TRG22 & TRG42 and the more expensive Accuracy International AWP & AWSM be justified? I know that other rifles and makers may be better bargains, but these are my choices. Please help me make in informed and justifiable decison between these two brands.

ktmhk53

[cheygriz]

You get what you pay for.

[sasnofear]

to be honest with you i dont see the point in a tatical .308 AND a .338

but you seem to be in the same sort of position im in, as I reallly want a tatical rifle and am considering, Sako, AI and Sig any of which are really a 'weapon for life'

personally i really like the AI rifles as they seem to be the best and you certianly get what you pay for personally i'd go for the .308 as my shooting would be sub 1200yrds but if u want to go out to 1600 with the .338 thats fine, as long as you have the skill to back it up.

unfortenatly as a student i cant afford a AW.308 & S&B scope and all extras, so im going to settle for a .308 single shot semi-custom gun to got out 2 1000yrds, hopefully below £1000

my advice is buy the best you can afford! so i believe your on the right track!

best of luck
Adam

[sasnofear]

also i forgot to inclued that th AI is the british army sniper rifle and to get that it has beaten of compatition, so it must be the best, anyway the sako is very ungainly.

note: this is not from personal experience as i have neither shot an AI or tatical Sako, im only going by my research into these rifles!


:confused:

happy hunting

[Steve Smith]

I must say that most of us could not appreciate the difference, if any. ktmhk53, do you truly have the experience in ultra-high grade firearms to tell the difference? I'm not doubting you, just wondering.

While I love fine food, I know that my palate is not cultured enough to accurately judge plates from the top five chefs. I would be the same way with a rifle, methinks, and a $1500 one would suit me just as well.

[cheygriz]

Since this is a lifetime investment, if you can afford the AI, then I wouldn't even consider anything else.

If you can have the absolute best, why settle for less?

Most people who drive Lamborghinis aren't professional race car drivers, but they can still appreciate fine craftsmanship, beauty and performance.

[cratz2]

I've never shot any of the AI rifles but have handled a couple. Very impressive. On the other hand, you are really paying a chuck for them. I think if you're experienced enough of a shooter to be able to extract the capabilities of the 338 Lapua, then a 700 action that's tuned and tweaked and lapped and squared with a big bolt handle and a cryo'd Lilja or Walther barrel and a HS or McMillan stock with a Jewell trigger will serve you super plenty fine. And probably cost less than half of the Accuracy International.

I'd borrow a friends quality rifle, go out and put 10 rounds into each of 10 targets it at 600 yards. If 95% of you're shots are within 10 inches or even 12 inches and the pattern is generally round, then the Accuracy International may be exactly what you need. If they range from 12" to 20" and they're all over the target then a lesser rifle will serve you just as well.

No offense intended. If you are a shooter of vast experience and can hold MOA groups out to such distances, you have my appology and certainly my respect. Just a very very small percentage of shooters are so capable. The British sniper training team no doubt rejects many fine shooters that are just not 'good enough'. I seriously doubt that I would have a chance in heck of getting it. :D

[Steve Smith]

I'm back. I am very curious, and I'm sure someone will help me with this.

What is the difference between the AI and the top match guns on the planet, like the Tubb2K? Granted, we're talking about a scoped rifle vs. a rifle with aperture sights, and different calibers, but as highly tuned as the T2K is, how much better would the AI be, and why aren't the top competitors using it instead?

Surely some of you will be offended by the logic in my post, but I'm really not trying to cause a rukus or incite a "you wouldn't understand" war. Really, just wondering.

[trapshooter]

by saying that I am very familiar with the TRG-42. Fine rifle. Don't understand the 'ungainly' comment, compared to an AI, as they would be about equal in that department, I think. Never held an AI, though, so I could be wrong.

There aren't many people in the world who would know the functional difference between the two, if any. But the price difference is pretty easy to figure out. Cheesoid Brits over-charge for everything they can't own anymore.

If you want to talk about your seven thou rifle, though, and can afford it, why not just have Ronnie Barrett whip an M82 on you? May not be as gnat shooting accurate as the other two, but it'll sure get someone's attention further out. If I had that kind of money, that's what I'd do, just for grins.

Let me add this:

Both the AI and Sako products are advertised as sub-moa. I think AI even says 1/2 moa. Don't know about the AI stuff, as I said, and I've only seen one TRG-42. Mine. And it is sub-moa, out of the box, with my first set of 'good' handloads for it (Lapua 250gr Scenar, Lapua brass, 86gr of N-560, Fed 215 primer. YMMV, and the usual cautions apply. I worked up to this load, even though I got it from Sierra, who used the matchkings, of course). I hear less powder is even more accurate than what I used. My dealer has a guy who wants to trade for the Sako. Guess what he wants to trade? Yep. AWSM, and I give him a few hundred to make him feel better.. I passed.

Also, if you are serious about the 'rough' field use, why not buy two Sako's for the same money as one AI. It's nice to have a backup gun if you screw one up in tough places.

[makdaddy03]

I love the SAKO.

[Skullboy]

Steve Smith, you really can't compare the AI to a match rifle.The AI is designed as a military sniper weapon system, and it is consturucted to withstand the abuse of a battlefield enviroment.Even thou the Tubb2K is probably a very accurate and high quality rifle, I doubt it would stand up to the abuse the military subjects thier weapons to.I think at one time AI offered a 300 meter match rifle, but I can't find any info on it on their website.The designer of the AI rifles is Malcom Cooper.He was an internationally ranked olympic target shooter.

SKBY.

[Art Eatman]

And so if one is contemplating offering one's expertise to the military as a sniper, showing up with an AI is a Good Thing? And if one anticipates some other line of work, an AI is a case of gilding the lily since for less money there are equally accurate critters out there...:D

Obviously, if one has the bucks and wants one, get it. :)

Art

[Steve Smith]

I see what you mean, but surely the difference in ruggedness doesn't constitute a $4k price hike. Of course, I'm a cheap bastid.

[Skullboy]

Steve, I'll be the first one to agree with you that a lot of these Tactical/Sniper weapon systems are overpriced.I have no idea what the Tubb2K rifle would go for,or includes, but a lot of the prices quoted for the AI rifles include the Shmidt and Bender scopes,aluminun transit cases, and extra mags, and accessories.

But it is amazing what the military will pay for gear.$600.00 toilet seats/coffee makers come to mind.;)

Art, I lot of people will buy them just to have a completely milspec weapon,and some just buy for the cool factor.

I put my 700PSS action in the AI chassis kit.Their kit was a little bit more money then buying a regular stock, but I liked the feel of the AI kit, and their mag system is excellent.Plus I never liked the H-S precsion police stock, and I thought the AI looked cool.

SKBY.

SKBY.

[sasnofear]

yes, AI 4 ruggedness, target aint.

you could get a great custom gun for the price but the AI just seems so good! and its basicly a custom gun in its self due 2 adjustable trigger stock etc

[sasnofear]

trapshooter--

point 1= brits overcharging? i think your american *** is just jealous of our superior gun making capabilitys

:p

point 2 = COME ON! the sako looks loke a brick with a barrel & bolt attached, not the smooth distribution of weight & well put together rifle that is the AI!

AI is superior to sako wether its worth it or not, so don't slag off what you cant afford! :o

AI has TONS of extras as well.

[Soap]

sasnofear- Have you ever even handled a TRG-42? When I handled it I thought that the balance was just fine for a rifle that size. YMMV.

[MonkeyMan]

I just took a quick turn through AI's website. Nice looking hardware. Interesting typo though, where they refer to

Feral Excise Tax:what:

I'm sure that's purely accidental.

Stay safe.

[Steve Smith]

Feral is not far from the truth.

[trapshooter]

last time I checked, Malcolm (or whatever the AI founder's name is) isn't Irish. Being descended from emerald stock on one side myself, that's a distinction of little real importance, but I like to point it out occasionally. (Scot on the other, a fine mix). As you may have noticed, we ex-colonials have a hard time choking down baseless assertions of superiority, sometimes. Must stem from the shortage of starch in our ancestor's diets, or something.

Second, what features does the AI have that the Sako does not? The Sako's scope mount system is, IMO, superior. The stocks are, in the end, about equal. The TRG-42, BTW, has an exquisite two-stage trigger. The Finn mil shooters don't seem to have any trouble lugging the TRG-42 around.

Three. Affordability is not an issue, trust me. Gouging is. I refuse to pay extra to help fund the socialist nanny-state programs currently in vogue in the UK. I help fund enough of those, here, already.

Finally, parochialism aside, I think the folks at Sako are just as capable as those on the other side of the channel, when it comes to putting rifles together. They just don't overcharge for them. Maybe that's because they have a larger customer base. AI hurt themselves early on, restricting sales to military and law enforcement only. Too bad for them. Political correctness has a price. It's too late for them (AI) to catch up. They are far behind the marketing curve, and outside the price points already acceptable in the market for the rifles they have, in any caliber. As noted (by others here, not just me), equally capable products (or superior ones) can be obtained from numerous manufacturers at less than half the cost.

[JG]

I was very close to buying an AWP, a hair's breath away (credit card in hand).....but at the very last second I thought it over and decided to go custom.

After doing a fair amount of research, the general consensus that I got was that AI were fantastic guns but extremely overpriced and a bit too heavy, for my tastes anyway (the AWP comes in at 14.3 pounds). So, I decided at that last second, not to go ahead buying the AI. Despite my findings, I was convinced this was the gun I needed and was close to buying it.

They are proven guns, but do you know what you could get for $4k?

I had GA Precision build me a gun for $3k and had money left over for killer optics.

But out of your choices, I would go Sako (that's a nice gun).

http://www.fototime.com/{ABA6B2DF-E97E-48AD-B202-FA0E875BC85C}/picture.JPG

[Schmit]

ktmhk53

Head on over to FFF and check this same topic you posted as I replied there.

For those here....

I happened to be lucky enough to get a "heads up" from a friend that knew I was looking for a precision rifle at the time that Gunsite was starting to import AI and got one of the first 50 in-country. Bought it sight unseen on his recommendation.

Haven't regreted that decision in the least! I wouldn't trade my AI for any other rifle. Have had both "novices" shoot sub-MOA groups first time behind the rifle and "professionals" say they would give their current rifle and one appendage for one after shooting it.

Now, having said all that you may want to take a look a the Blaser R93 LRS2 in .338 and then get the bolt head, barrel, etc in .308 (and/or .223 - .300 WM). You could probably get the R93 in both chamberings (have to order in .338 and "retrofit" down (can't "retrofit" up with the system)) for around the current* price of an AI. Two rifles for the price of one.

* I'd tell you the price I paid for my AI in 94 :o but it would just make everyone sad :banghead:

[trapshooter]

Gunny,

No dispute at all about the quality of AI products. Right up there with anyone, in the target market for the gun(s). It's just what you have to pay to get it, versus the other options available. If I had it all to do over, who knows? Rather than buy a TRG, I might have gone custom, and bought a couple more handguns with the extra money, or gotten ahead of the curve on another (heavier caliber) rifle. Having said that, my Sako ain't for sale, ever.

(Maybe one of these days, I'll bring it to Fla. again, if you want to poke a hole in some paper with it. I'll trade you shot for shot, if you let me try the AI. I get down there annually. I'll buy the ammo. Little head-to-head trial.).

[Schmit]

Trap,

I know what your saying exactly. When I got my AI the cost difference btwn one of the "custom" 700 out there and the AI wasn't all that great. If I were doing all over again right now there would be a Blaser LRS2 in my safe along with a few different barrels for it (.223, .308 & .338 (short, medium, and long range :o )

Your on. The only range that is close to me is a public 100 yard. We can do paper or start with 12 gauge hulls and work our way down through caliber cases (30-06, .308, .223 and then :what: .22LR) :D

[TargetShooter2]

Greetings ,

There's no doubt of the rifles listed as well as JG "Custom " should fit the needs of most user's , when you say rough, and heavy field use both the AI & Sako's are current SWS if they wasnt worthy they wouldnt be in the fields today . on cost it one thing to have one issued to you and another if you are buying it yourself , even in the field you protect your weapon !! i have not held a AI myself either , so i cant give you a hands on report on it , customs rifles yes , Sako TRG yes as i have both, on Custom rifles i have to believe that you can get one to shoot just as good as either the AI or Sako's for less money , just this time around i wanted something alittle different than another Custom Remmy.
i have nothing bad to say about the TRG , if you have pulled fine triggers then this one will fit in as one of the best , the fit and finish as well as the bolt is excellent , my Sako is a sub - moa rifle
my cold bore shot is right where i want it to be time after time .
also both of the rifles are built on the rail system also .
if i was you and i was going to spend the kind of money you are talking about for two rifles i would want to spend alittle trigger time behind them iam sure you can find a dealer or training center that can do that for you .

TS2
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p1b56b60623448b53513e50ad2a00f298/fcef27a3.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pfbf0edddfd349537d4d12fc2e3f708bf/fcee0d4f.jpg

[sasnofear]

TRAPSHOOTER- i never said he was irish i said AI was made by 'brits' , now last time i checked 'irish' wasn't spelt as "brits"

Edited by Art, removing extraneous nonsense.

[trapshooter]

Sas,,

I think you missed my point. Obviously, I hacked you off. Sorry. I call 'em like I see 'em.

Gunny Schmit,

I'm going to send you a PM. I'm serious.

[Mute]

I have shot both and yes IMO the AI is better. Better stock, better bolt, better trigger. That said, if I had that much money, I'd rather send it to George Gardner (http://www.gaprecision.net/indexr.html) to make me a rifle. But, I know exactly what I like or don't like on a precision rifle.

[sasnofear]

no worries trapshooter, i like talking to people who say it as it is. no hard feelings or nothing.

am more than happy to recive a PM from you . look forward to it.

-- looking @ the picks of the sako from a diff angle it dosent seen as ungainly as i remembered, however the AI seems more streamlined & prob better balanced. I was thinking it over today and to be honest if you are a civilian i think its money better spent on a custom job or a Sako/sig. however personally if i could easily afford AI i woud buy it, but i think most ppl out there would rather have a rifle build the way they want it than an of the shelf AI (though there are options with them)

all in all there isnt that much seperating the AI and sako. the AI is the better rifle but for the price of the difference i'd rather go custom or the sako as you can get a good scope with left overs. though if you have the money...buy the best! as long as your up to the challange, well are ya punk? ;) go ahead, make my day!

Adam

[trapshooter]

If Gunny Schmit and I can get together, we'll let him have the last word, as he'll have the chance to shoot both, in the same day. He has an AI, but I think he will give us the straight...well, you know, ;), uhhh, professional opinion.:D

I'm ready to concede that the AI has an edge in several areas (it does have more eye appeal, for instance, just to start). I agree on the stock, and thus the balance may tip in it's favor. Not having examined one directly, it's hard for me to say anything about 'feel' of the action, etc., which means a great deal about how I view the ultimate worth of a gun. Heck, maybe they are worth that much more.

In the end, I'm probably quibbling about the price/performance difference between a Vantage :cool: and a Corvette, also:cool: .
Performance is roughly equal (if the 'Vette is a Z06), but the Vantage has the edge in areas that go beyond performance (although it wins there, too). I'd take either one. Same with the rifles.

[Zak Smith]

To resurrect an old thread...

I've shot the TRG42 (338), AI-AWM300, and I own an AI-AWP (308). I've handled but not shot the Tubb rifle. (And of course I have experience with conventional Rem700's and Win70's.)

The AW/AWM/ASM series has a "field replaceable" barrel system, and the parts are made such that you can take a bolt from any other same model drop it right in. Of the TRG and the AI, both will shoot half-minute or better from the box with no load development. The consensus on SH and SP.com is that the AI is a "tougher" rifle which will put up with more abuse. The bolt seems to run more "on its own" on the AI vs. the TRG (for me).

If I were to buy a 338 or 300, my choice would be the AI-AWM. It's probably the most well thought out field-worthy precision rifle.

Comparing the Tubb to either the AI or the TRG isn't really appropriate. The Tubb is an extremely focused design for shooting from defined positions, not for humping all day across the Wyoming or NM high plains and engaging targets from improvised positions. That super adjustable Tubb stock just doesn't work very well shooting from weak-shoulder, for example. Is a 25oz Anschutz trigger reliable when the rifle is caked with sand dust?

In response to Steve's question, "Why aren't the top competitors using it?" -- They are, but you're looking at a different game. The AI's win or fare well (depending on the shooter) in IPSC/USPSA "MOR" (manually operated rifle) class and in the "sniper/tactical" or "practical precision rifle" matches.

$4k price hike? Let's say we're comparing a $4500 AW to a $800 Rem PSS. With the AW, you get a superior action permanently bonded to the frame substructure, fully adjustable stock ergos, field replacable parts & bbl, optics rail machined into receiver (albiet the AI rail), a great adjustable 2-stage trigger, a magazine system that actually works when dirty, and a whole sytem that will shoot half MOA or better with basically any match quality ammunition. You can forget finding the load your rifle "likes" and doing painstaking load development, just pick any decent match ammo.

Yes, a $3000 GAP gets you real close, but you're still "stuck" with the limitations of the Rem700 action.

Of course, this may be a moot point if AI's post-buyout management makes drastic changes.

-z

[Bunkerbuster]

Seems like this is a popular topic. I posted this topic on Glocktalk and did not get too much response.

:)

[siholden]

Interesting discussion. I've got a TRG22 (.308) as well as a Tubb T2K (.243). (Would love an AI AW but think the Mrs might go nuts if I turned up with yet another rifle.) Both are superb rifles in every regard. The Tubb is fractionally more accurate than the TRG22, (we're talking maximum of 2mm difference at 100 yards for a 5 shot group, so it's not really worth talking about unless you're in a crazily serious competition). I wouldn't tramp the Tubb T2K around in the wild for anything though. It's gorgeous and is incredibly well built, by McMillan Bros, but it's not built for serious outside dragging through hedge rows etc. I like my TRG a great deal too. It's beautifully built, is easy to use and shoots like a dream. With the brake on it, recoil is quite low but can still thump a bit if you dont keep it tight enough into your shoulder. The triggers are both wonderful but the Tubb is marginally better. The TRG22 is easier to hold level while prone or benched than the Tubb T2K because of the design of the rear of the stock. I know a couple of people with the AI AW (.308) and they love them too. I guess what it comes down to is when you're paying serious cash for a weapon like these, you can't really go wrong. It's just personal preference.

[SlamFire1]

"Comparing the Tubb to either the AI or the TRG isn't really appropriate. The Tubb is an extremely focused design for shooting from defined positions, not for humping all day across the Wyoming or NM high plains and engaging targets from improvised positions. That super adjustable Tubb stock just doesn't work very well shooting from weak-shoulder, for example. Is a 25oz Anschutz trigger reliable when the rifle is caked with sand dust?"

Don't own a Tubb. Have shot with a number of High Masters who have one.

A Tubb rifle is a specialized rifle, specifically designed to win Highpower Matches. As previously stated, it is adjustable in all dimensions, including time and space. The guys who own them tell me it takes a while to figure out all the adjustments. It is a reliable rifle, but only in the context of a rifle match. You put these things back in a case, maybe fabric, maybe plastic, and you carefully carry it to the next firing point. At the end of the day, you put it away in a stronger case. These are precision instruments and are not to be dropped or bounced around like a service rifle.

If you want to go four wheeling, don't buy a sports car. If you want to run stock car, don't get an Indy car. These are special purpose items.

[Medusa]

Comparision of TRG-42 and AI-AWSM (http://demigodllc.com/articles/military-338-lapua-rifles-trg42-awsm/)

[Fosbery]

My 2p:

The Sako is a superb rifle but the AI is just about perfect in my opinion. The trigger pull is the best out of the box I have ever experienced, bar none. The bolt is the like liquid silk. The grip just feels better in the hand and is also more suited to left hand and off hand shooting in my opinion. The mag release is much easier to access too, and the bipod is more user-friendly.

I've not had much experience with the Sako though, so my advice is only worth what you paid for it ;)