Finnish Army marked Carcano carbine


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hso
June 26, 2011, 10:46 AM
I found a nice little Finnish Army marked Carcano carbine at the Las Vegas ginshop near the airport. If I didn't already have one in my collection I would have snapped it up. Good luck to anyone who is a fellow Finn Revolution/Winter War/Continuation War collector.

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CornCod
June 26, 2011, 02:30 PM
Been seeing a lot of Carcanos lately in the hands of the Libyan Rebels; some with ammo and some without. Could it be the Carcano's final appearance on the stage of war? The rifle has been an implement of conflict since 1891, quite a record.

goon
June 26, 2011, 07:32 PM
Didn't know that the Finns had any Carcanos, but it's an interesting bit of information on that story.
I wrote a paper about the Winter War last year - probably one of the most interesting historical events I've ever studied.

hso
June 27, 2011, 12:53 AM
The Finns used captured Mosin Nagant rifles, Japanese M97, 02 and 05, and Winchester M/1895s as well has having purchased Carcanos after the revolution since they knew the only way they'd be getting any more Mosin Nagants was if they were in the hands of Russian invaders.

Vaarok
June 27, 2011, 01:39 AM
Wrong.

The Finns were nominally Axis-allied, or at least friendly, so the Italians were obligated to give at least some equipment to them. As their re-armament program had failed due to a shortage of 7.35 ammo, and subsequent return to only using 6.5, they dumped the now-nonstandard rifles on the Finns, taking care of their obligation while also not compromising their war effort by giving away useful equipment. In much the same way, the Germans gave the Finns Chauchat machine-rifles captured from France and some Lewis guns captured from the British at Dunkirk.

The Finns were awash with more Mosins following the Russian Revolution than they knew what to do with and they were much too poor to be buying new Carcanos.

Sam Cade
June 27, 2011, 01:50 AM
the Germans gave the Finns Chauchat machine-rifles

I wonder if they tried to give them back?

Vaarok
June 27, 2011, 10:41 AM
No, they were grateful to get whatever they could, and by all accounts used them for antiaircraft and second-line defense.

The Chauchat in .30-06 was crap. The Chauchat in 8x50R Lebel was teething in WW1 but did work, and by WW2 the kinks had been ironed out and it was a dated but functional machine rifle.

Jeremy2171
June 27, 2011, 11:00 AM
The Chauchat in .30-06 was crap.

Not to divert the thread too much (I hope!) but the big problem was the .30cal version was not made to the correct dimensions. Several years back an MG collector had a "mint" .30cal (go figure since they didn't work) and went about making it work. Turns out the chamber was not reamed to .30cal correctly and the groove for the extractor was too shallow basically "locking" a case in the chamber. He corrected these issues and then it ran like a champ!

Be thankful the .30cal version sucked so bad as there was serious movement to abandon the M1918 BAR and adopt the Chauchat as standard..the failure of the .30cal version allowed the BAR to rule for the next 50 years!

Back to your normally scheduled thread....... :neener:

clamman
June 27, 2011, 01:55 PM
Shot my first deer with a 7.35

Cosmoline
June 27, 2011, 02:11 PM
Vaarok--are you positive about the Carcanos being some kind of Axis lend/lease? The info I've found is that they were sold as surplus by Italy to Finland in 1940, before Finland was engaged in the Continuation war and the ill-fated alliance with Germany.

At the same time Finland had a serious shortage of rifles (and all other military equipment) during Winter War, so when the Italians offered new M/38 rifles the Finns immediately got interested. Negotiations took a lot of time, but finally in April of 1940 deliveries begun and 94,500 of ordered 100,000 rifles arrived to Finland in summer of 1940.

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES6.htm

Vaarok
June 27, 2011, 09:34 PM
The Italians were obligated to provide material support, from what I understand, in some form, and the rifles not only didn't consume valuable raw resources, finished materials needed for the war effort, or drain production capacity, and also meant that the Italians got paid, helping fund their own war effort.

hso
June 27, 2011, 10:54 PM
Vaarok,

I've seen statements both ways, that the Finns received the Carcanos as aid in '40 and that the rifles were sold to them at a reduced cost during '39/'40. The MosinNagant site has both statements, but that may be parsing the point too finely since selling/dumping the rifles on the Finns at a bargain price and calling it aid may be the same thing at the time. Regardless, it is no surprise that they couldn't get quantities of rifles from any source other than the original revolution captures and then Axis sources since they were co-combatants with the Axis against the Russians once Hitler attacked Stalin.

Cosmoline
June 28, 2011, 12:42 PM
That was only after Stalin became Uncle Joe in 1941. Before that FDR, Churchill and the rest of the west was rooting for the plucky little Finns against the bloodthirsty Russian bear. The dispute tore up the League of Nations. Our tune changed when the Hitler-Stalin pact fell apart and we needed to work with the Soviets.

apple
March 12, 2013, 06:33 AM
Apologies for the thread necromancy. But, joined the forum just to correct some massively incorrect statements made in this thread

The Finns used captured Mosin Nagant rifles, Japanese M97, 02 and 05, and Winchester M/1895s as well has having purchased Carcanos after the revolution since they knew the only way they'd be getting any more Mosin Nagants was if they were in the hands of Russian invaders.

While it's true that the majority of Moisin Nagants used by the Finnish Army were captured rifles manufactured in Russia, Finland made 10's (perhap 100's I don't know the exact figures) of thousands of new Moisin-Nagants. Also, perhaps the majority of the captured rifles were, sometimes heavily, refurbished using Finnish made parts.



The Finns were nominally Axis-alliedTalking about the Axis is misleading for the period when the Carcanos were sold to Finland i.e. 1939-40.
, or at least friendlyIn this case, you're not being so much misleading as willfully incorrect. The Nazis and the Soviet had agreed that the Soviet Union could occupy Finland in the Winter War. Finland's main allies during that period were the British and the French, not the "Axis" which didn't even exist then
, so the Italians were obligated to give at least some equipment to themThere was no obligation.The Finnish government paid the Italians cash for the Carcanos, Fiat G.50 fighter planes and torpedo boats
. As their re-armament program had failed due to a shortage of 7.35 ammo, and subsequent return to only using 6.5, they dumped the now-nonstandard rifles on the Finns, taking care of their obligation while also not compromising their war effort by giving away useful equipment.The Fiat fighters were better planes than the planes most of the Italian airforce were flying
In much the same way, the Germans gave the Finns Chauchat machine-rifles captured from France and some Lewis guns captured from the British at Dunkirk.

Were did you hear this? The French govt. sold/ gave, their allies, the Finns all sorts of weapons. Some (very, very few) Lewis guns in 7.62*54 were captured in the Finnish Civil War. Am unaware, and I'm not going to believe you, that Finland made any use of Lewis guns in 0.303. LMG's were perhaps the only weapon the Finnish Army wasn't short of


The Finns were awash with more Mosins following the Russian Revolution than they knew what to do with and they were much too poor to be buying new Carcanos.Cash could be found for weapons once the Winter War started


Vaarok--are you positive about the Carcanos being some kind of Axis lend/lease? The info I've found is that they were sold as surplus by Italy to Finland in 1940, before Finland was engaged in the Continuation war and the ill-fated alliance with Germany.
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES6.htm

You are correct, Cosmoline. Don't listen to anything Vaarok says.

Regardless, it is no surprise that they couldn't get quantities of rifles from any source other than the original revolution captures and then Axis sources since they were co-combatants with the Axis against the Russians once Hitler attacked Stalin.

The Finnish army got huge numbers of Mausers from Sweden during the Winter War. Like the Carcano, these were in a non standard calibre and weren't used much.

You probably can talk about Finland being an Axis country after Finland invaded the Soviet Union. But, as I was indicating before, they'd had previous issues with Hitler. Germany wasn't selling and had stopped some arms exports to Finland, for example from the Netherlands, during the Winter War. But, later they sold huge amounts of material to Finland

RPRNY
March 12, 2013, 03:49 PM
apple. Welcome on board. Your clarifications add to the information available on the subject. Below is some suggested reading given your first post was a little, strident shall, we say?

http://www.thehighroad.org/announcement.php?a=20

stubbicatt
March 12, 2013, 04:49 PM
Apple. What is your source of authority for your statements?

Thanks.

Regards,
Stubb

7mmman
March 12, 2013, 06:23 PM
I too have Finnish Army marked Carcano 91/38 that I bought new in 1958 right out of the crate for $14 with my paper route money.. Been shooting it now for almost 55 years.

I have had many other rifles over the years but as this was the first I bought with my own money I've kept it. Now days I make my own 7.35 mm ammo to shoot it and it still does just fine.

I can still ring the gongs at 200 yards with my 68 year old eyes so I'm still enjoying it..

backbencher
March 12, 2013, 06:45 PM
Hmm, I was thinking there were no Finnish manufactured Mosin receivers. They refurbished tens of thousands of Mosins, and both manufactured & contracted barrels - which gives the Finn an excellent reputation for accuracy among Mosins. Truly, a holy grail if the Finns manufactured some previously unknown receivers.

meanmrmustard
March 12, 2013, 06:49 PM
I wonder if they tried to give them back?
Probably couldn't pay enough to get them to take the Shoe-Shoe back.

Ash
March 12, 2013, 07:44 PM
Vaarok knows quite a bit regarding this subject. The Finns made Mosins, true, but they generally did not make Mosin actions. Indeed, they made no receivers nor most bolt parts (extractors and some cocking handles were about it). They generally did not make rear sights except for 28/30's or m39's. Finns were really Mosin Modifiers, though their trigger work was superb and I'd take any Finnish Mosin over most Soviet/Russian Mosins - and I have owned quite a few Finns (about 70 rifles).

caribou
March 13, 2013, 06:45 AM
The Finns never, ever, manufactured a Mosin Nagant reciver. Ever.
They made every other part and assembled some of the best made Mosins ever.
SAKO made Mosin variations for the Civil Guard and Valmet made them for Finnish 'Suomi' Army. When war came the Civil Guard filled out the Army.
They bought them all over post WW1 Europe, as well as haveing many incountry because they were a break off state of the Civil War torn Russian empire. Red and White armys fought in Finnland during the Red October Revolution, and Finnland defeated the Communists and set up their own Country.

When the Soviets invaded, and again in the Contenuation War,They issed anything they could get, including Swedish M-96 mausers, Berdan Rifles, Winchesters and Carcanos to rear eschlon troops.

During the era of "Soviet/Nazi Non agression pact", Hitler and Stalin divvied Poland, Hilter was given free rign for Czecloslovakia, Austria and such, while Stalin took on Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Finnland. Finnland alone stood up to Stalin, in the Winter War.
The US and France, Sweden, England and others backed Finnland, but not very much materially.
Later, during the Contenuation War, England declared war against Finnland for allying with Germany, but America refused to follow suit.

Hilter approched Finnland and had them cooperate with the Axis against the Soviets to recover the lands lost to the Soviet invation of Finnland when Germany attacked the Soviet Union, and it was called by the Finns "The Contenuation War".........."The enemy of my enemy is my friend" kinda came into play here, and the Finns refused to attack Lenningrad or occupy anything more than a better foot hold in the Soviet Union that would allow them to better defend Finnland.
When the tides of War changed, and the Nazi's retreated , Finnland founght viciously for a peace agrement and withdrew from the war, returning the lands to the Soviets thet were lost in the first war, and expelling the Nazi's from Finnland.

Basicly alone against the Soviets , the Finns showed what a well aimed rifle and stiff defence can do for a small country. They were also the only country Stalin tryed to invade who fought them off and remained souvern after the war.

apple
March 13, 2013, 06:46 AM
apple. Welcome on board. Your clarifications add to the information available on the subject. Below is some suggested reading given your first post was a little, strident shall, we say?

http://www.thehighroad.org/announcement.php?a=20

Sure, I just edited my initial post.

Apple. What is your source of authority for your statements?

Thanks.

Regards,
Stubb

Modern Nordic History is my minor subject at the University of Tampere, where I'm studying on exchange at the moment. Although, most of what I've read about Finnish Army small-arms comes from the jaegerplatoon.net site Cosmoline mentioned

Hmm, I was thinking there were no Finnish manufactured Mosin receivers. They refurbished tens of thousands of Mosins, and both manufactured & contracted barrels - which gives the Finn an excellent reputation for accuracy among Mosins. Truly, a holy grail if the Finns manufactured some previously unknown receivers.

Yeah, good point. I was being misleading when I talked about Finland manufacturing Moisins.

ApacheCoTodd
March 13, 2013, 10:42 AM
One thing about them thar Finns... They did what they had to politically, militarily and materially and while their records are iffy at best they are also deliberately fuzzified in many cases.

I think quoting "gospel" where Finnland's bad years are concerned is pretty murky and evidence based supposition holds about as much water as the so-called facts floating about.

Never forget that many of these facts had the opportunity to be re-written by several parties in the last century To their own third party ends) while the Finns themselves often remained silent for political expediency.

ball3006
March 13, 2013, 11:25 AM
To learn more about Finn rifles, go here... http://7.62x54r.net/ chris3

Carl N. Brown
March 13, 2013, 11:36 AM
It is my understanding the Finns used the Italian 91/38s to arm maintenance and support type rear echelons to free up standard arms for front line troops.

hang fire
March 13, 2013, 11:45 AM
In the three month Winter War (1939-40) against the Soviet invasion, the Italians sent considerable arms and material to Finland. Several other nations (to include the US) also sent same, but most arrived too late to help the Finns. But the Soviets got a very bloody nose, Nikita Khrushchev his memoirs wrote the Soviets lost one million men. One Finnish sniper using only a iron sighted rifle, had over 700 confirmed kills in the 3 month conflict.

IMO, Talvisota, (English subtitles) 1989 movie about the Winter war is one of the best war films ever. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&rlz=1R2NDKB_enUS517&sclient=psy-ab&q=talvisota+english+subtitles&rlz=1R2NDKB_enUS517&oq=Talvisota&gs_l=serp.1.2.0l4.177460.177460.0.181041.1.1.0.0.0.0.207.207.2-1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.2.5.psy-ab.CIUfJow4kck&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=90d91c4868abcf15&biw=1152&bih=476

The Winter War makes for a very interesting David versus Goliath read, (Fire and Ice PBS documentary http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR2FqMUVZzc )

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=nikita%20Krueshive%20&pq=fire%20and%20ice%20winter%20war&cp=12&gs_id=5y&xhr=t&q=the+winter+war&es_nrs=true&pf=p&rlz=1R2NDKB_enUS517&sclient=psy-ab&oq=the+winter+w&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWc&fp=90d91c4868abcf15&biw=1152&bih=476

voicomp
May 4, 2013, 01:21 AM
so, now, i feel completely clueless except for feeling compelling to look for Carcanos w/ the Finnish SA as an added agenda item for gunshows. Damn you, I had been deluded that collecting Finn WWII might be easy and affordable....

toivo
May 4, 2013, 02:22 AM
The Winter War is a fascinating subject. As I understand it, there are several reasons the Finns were able to hold off the Russians for so long.

One is that Stalin had recently purged his officers corps of those who were "politically undesirable," which included some of his best and most experienced officers. What he ended up with was a crew who were loyal and politically correct, but not necessarily competent or experienced at warfare.

Another factor is that the Finns were fighting on their home turf in the middle of a very brutal winter. While the Russians were freezing in tents and scrounging for shelter, the Finns had wood-heated bunkers scattered around the forests, where their troops could rotate in and out to get warm and sleep.

The Russians also had a lot of difficulty moving their armor through the rough, wooded terrain of Finland. Often they were strung out on single-lane roads through dense forests. A Finnish tactic was to attack and disable the front and rear of a column, thereby trapping the rest to be encircled and picked off at leisure. The Battle of the Raate Road is a famous example of that tactic.

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/tomi245/Raate_Road_1940_Finland_zps9222f7cf.jpg

http://heninen.net/raatteentie/kuvia/274.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o293/Snippersly/Finn-Aftermath.jpg http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/cons/mm03/112_1247.JPG

The Finnish Army was made up primarily of reservists who were called up to defend the homeland, but they were mostly country people who already knew how to shoot, how to ski, and how to live in the woods. In many cases, they were fighting in their own home areas, so it was their own woods. Big advantage.

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