Serbu "Super Shorty"


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TechPrepper
June 26, 2011, 01:25 PM
My wife and I like to do a lot of backpack camping. We always carry our CCW's with us (Her a Glock 19 and me a 17). I've often thought about carrying a shotgun as well, but even with a pistol grip they are quite large and heavy.

While researching short barrel shotguns I came across the Serbu "Super Shorty"

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

It is classified as an AOW instead of a SBS which would make picking it up a lot easier ($5 tax stamp). The size is ideal for inside a backpack or even strapped to the side of the leg for easier access.

Does anyone have experience with this firearm? Is it a gimmick or actually useful? In your experience, what is it best suited for and why did you get one?

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Joe Demko
June 26, 2011, 01:37 PM
If you search this site for threads on pistol grip shotguns or on the term PGO, you'll find a huge number of threads debating their utility. FWIW, people whose opinion I respect very much don't think very highly of such shotguns.

oneounceload
June 26, 2011, 01:44 PM
The Serbu is not cheap, but it is compact, and as a bear-defense type gun, should work well. PGOs have their own quirks when it comes to handling, and as you lighten the gun and shoot hot loads, the recoil can be brutal to some. Whether changing the pistol grip style for a birdshead might makes handling a little easier

Rail Driver
June 26, 2011, 01:44 PM
I can see them being devastating as a short range defensive weapon against man size or smaller attackers when using buckshot. With slugs, I'd consider it a last resort weapon defending against a bear attack maybe... a small bear...

Youngster
June 26, 2011, 03:19 PM
You'd be lucky to get 1100 fps with slugs, 1000 fps with buckshot, out of so short of a barrel, at the price of utterly stunning muzzle blast.

I've got a 12.5" barrel and trust me, that's as short as you'd want to go regarding ballistics and shooting comfort. Also, it's so darn short and handy that you aren't gaining much by going shorter anyway.

VA27
June 26, 2011, 05:13 PM
Back when I was young and dumb, I had an Ithaca 'Stakeout', 10 3/4" barrel, two in the mag one in the chamber. It was handy for warrant service, but that was about all. It was NO fun to shoot, but it was fun watching others shoot it. Of course this was years before the reduced recoil loads were on the market. I sold it to a collector who was thrilled to get it and I don't miss it a bit.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd pay the 200 bux for an SBS with a folding stock. That way practice would be a little more enjoyable.

oneounceload
June 26, 2011, 05:22 PM
You'd be lucky to get 1100 fps with slugs, 1000 fps with buckshot, out of so short of a barrel

Do you really think you would need more at close range? This isn't for bean field shooting

Fred Fuller
June 26, 2011, 09:16 PM
I wouldn't consider it for any serious purpose. Not that Mark Serbu doesn't do good work- he most certainly does. Interesting, yes - entertaining, yes - practical, I just don't see it in a shotgun that short, unless you plan on a wardrobe shift to white linen suits, pastel shirts and a job fighting the drug trade in 1980s South Beach... :D

http://carpetbaggery.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/miami-vice_l1.jpg

lpl

pikid89
June 26, 2011, 09:24 PM
i dont know a whole lot about shotguns but i always thought the Serbu would be awesome if converted to a SBS with an AR type stock

memphisjim
June 26, 2011, 09:28 PM
It's cool for sure I know you need an aow tax stamp but is it technically a handgun? By that could you carry it with a TN handgun carry permit?

Quiet
June 26, 2011, 09:46 PM
A couple of my friends have them.
They have it because it is the closest thing to a SBS that they can legally own. One lives in CA and another lives in WA.

Shooting slugs through it is not a fun experience.
I can shoot about 20 rounds of 00 buck shot through the Serbu before I'm done with it.

Kinda like the Safety Harbor Firearms KEG-12 better than the Serbu Super Shorty. It's the same thing just slightly less expensive.

But for an AOW, I really want the Cadiz Gun Works Saiga-12 AOW. :evil:

kingpin008
June 26, 2011, 10:10 PM
It's cool for sure I know you need an aow tax stamp but is it technically a handgun?

If you need an AOW tax stamp it's an AOW. If it were technically a handgun they'd classify it as a handgun.

Youngster
June 27, 2011, 01:16 AM
Do you really think you would need more at close range? This isn't for bean field shooting

You might, buckshot out of one of these is probably giving the kind of velocity you would expect at 50ish yards from a regular length shotgun, at the muzzle. Buckshot isn't exactly noted for its effectiveness at 50 yards.

Energy wise you're running right between what some .410 buck loads can do in a Judge and a proper .410 shotgun, hardly worth it considering the negatives.

As far as the slugs go, I'm sure they'd still be good to go on people but they might start to get "iffy" for animal defence, and between the reduced power and other negatives I'd rather carry a magnum revolver at that point instead.

Mainsail
June 27, 2011, 12:30 PM
What is so frightening in Southwest Florida that you want to carry a shotgun on a backpacking trip? The 9mm might be marginal, but that's a pretty big jump!

Justin
June 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
I've shot one.

Even with birdshot the recoil was noticeable, though not downright unpleasant. it wouldn't be very useful past extremely short distances, and the capacity is very limited.

They are neat, though. :D

If you need a dedicated backwoods gun, I'd suggest looking at a handgun chambered in 10mm, .357, or .44 Magnum. Such a gun would likely be lighter than the Serbu, carry at least twice as much ammunition (if not four times as much in the case of something like a Glock 20) and holsters are readily available.

TechPrepper
June 27, 2011, 01:52 PM
What is so frightening in Southwest Florida that you want to carry a shotgun on a backpacking trip? The 9mm might be marginal, but that's a pretty big jump!

We backpack all over the United States actually and rarely in Florida. We like the mountains the most. That said, it is a big jump from a 9mm. The Glocks were our preference for a CCW. We didn't have anything else and we were comfortable/proficient with our Glocks, so taking it hiking was a no-brainer. Honestly we are more concerned about predators on two legs rather than those on four. But if we ever crossed paths with a large predator it would be nice to know we had a tool for the job. I was hopeful that the Serbu with a few slugs would do the trick. I guess I'm looking in the wrong direction. I always wanted to get a S&W 500 :D

MrM4
June 29, 2011, 12:03 AM
I had one and sold it, the Novelty of the Serbu wares off fast.

Lightsped
June 29, 2011, 03:24 PM
I enjoy mine. I get the most fun out of letting my friends fire it... It also gets alot of attention at the range. Alittle bit brutal, but a fun gun to own none the less. Here's a video of one of my non-gun (not anti, just not really exposed to guns) friends firing mine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqX_F1FEJjs&NR=1

Strykervet
June 29, 2011, 03:48 PM
I wanted one, I sort of still do, but I just can't see what job it would fill. It is heavier than a handgun, but not as efficient as a shotgun...

dprice3844444
June 29, 2011, 04:54 PM
lee.nice pic. that shotgun held by tubbs is a wilson arms executive protection shotgun by wilson arms company of brunswick ga.wilson also makes the witness protection shot gun used by the us marshalls service and was also seen in the early grocery store scene in the stallone movie cobra. the serbu is a clone of the executive protection shotgun

ForumSurfer
June 29, 2011, 05:04 PM
The Glocks were our preference for a CCW. We didn't have anything else and we were comfortable/proficient with our Glocks, so taking it hiking was a no-brainer. Honestly we are more concerned about predators on two legs rather than those on four. But if we ever crossed paths with a large predator it would be nice to know we had a tool for the job.

Perhaps one of you should buy a 10mm glock? It'll do for any north American predator. Outside of that, I'd go for a large bore revolver that is easier to carry and similar in price, not to mention far more practical while still being just as lethal...if not more.

Prince Yamato
June 29, 2011, 07:25 PM
Alternatively, you could buy a used Norinco double barrel shotgun for $300, cut it down to an sbs for $200, still come in under the price of a Serbu, and still have what you want.

GoingQuiet
June 29, 2011, 08:13 PM
My wife and I like to do a lot of backpack camping. We always carry our CCW's with us (Her a Glock 19 and me a 17). I've often thought about carrying a shotgun as well, but even with a pistol grip they are quite large and heavy.

While researching short barrel shotguns I came across the Serbu "Super Shorty"

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

It is classified as an AOW instead of a SBS which would make picking it up a lot easier ($5 tax stamp). The size is ideal for inside a backpack or even strapped to the side of the leg for easier access.

Does anyone have experience with this firearm? Is it a gimmick or actually useful? In your experience, what is it best suited for and why did you get one?
Easier is only in financial terms, paperwork is the same - just $195 less.

Dan Forrester
June 30, 2011, 12:49 PM
I have the factory 870 MCS AOW and would have to say for practicality I really canít think of any situation where I would grab my 870 AOW over my Glock 21 with Surefire X300. If you really want one, have them SBR it and put a top folding stock on it. If it were me and I was looking to increase my firepower from what "you" currently have I would upgrade to a Glock 20 or 21 with a couple spare magazines, some good night sights and definitely put an LED rail mounted light on it. My Surefire X300 is absolutely amazing when out in the woods at night.

Dan

dprice3844444
June 30, 2011, 06:29 PM
if your going to cut down a double barrel,find a nice verticle double with good auto injectors.more compact to hide and quicker relaods in tight situations.

also,the determination of short barrel shotgun or aow is determined on how the receivers are aquired by the title 2 manufacturer.if useing rem or mossberg,if they get them fully assembled like the public gets them,it's a short barreled shotgun, 200 tax stamp.if they get the gun receiver only,then it's aow 5 bucks.that makes the title2 dealer the end manufacturer.

ATCDoktor
June 30, 2011, 08:18 PM
Mines not a SERBU, it's a Safety Harbor Firearms KEG 12.

Essentially it's the same gun, 7.5 " barrel, 3 shot capacity, 2.75 and 3' magnum capable.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/000_0004.jpg

I carry mine in the holster pictured above and have used it to take small game out to about 50 paces.

Long shots were made with Federal 3 inch magnum #2's using a control flight wad (and a litle bit of luck).

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1111.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1110.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1108.jpg

Using buck shot the patterns tend to open fast with mine.

Here's a 5 yard pattern with 2.75" number 4 buck (spead is about 8 inches):

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1096.jpg

10 yards with the same load:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1097.jpg

3 rounds of number 4 buck at 12 yards:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1099.jpg

1 ounce slugs at 15 yards firing it with a two hand hold (like a conventional handgun). Holes at the bottom of the target are from the wads.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c307/ATCDoctor/100_1100.jpg

I like mine and shoot it quite often.

That said, as much as I like it, it's not a replacement for a conventionally stocked shotgun (or a handgun for that matter).

You would be hard pressed to keep all the pellets from a round of buckshot on a silhouette at 15 yards.

That said, inside 10 yards it'll turn a man into a bloody pile of rags with three quick strokes of the VFG.

Southern But Mobile
July 2, 2011, 09:38 AM
I read here a lot as well as other forums, but haven't posted on THR before today. It seems to me like a really big risk to be traveling state to state with either an AOW or SBS.

Even if you paid the $5 AOW or $200 SBS/SBR fee and got the paper, you may suddenly be carrying an illegal weapon when you cross the state line or city limit. The tax stamp is "federal", but states and municipalities can - and some do - have possession laws that trump the BATFE "permit to have". You have to notify BATFE - within 30 days I think - if you relocate with your AOW or SBS.

If you get stopped driving through or have a wreck in a city where NFA weapons are illegal to possess, then what?

Also, even 000 from a short barrel is a great way to piss off a bear, that's about it. For years and probably still, AK Dept of Fish and Game's official statement was 'no handgun should be considered adequate defense against a bear attack'. A shorty is effectively a handgun in terms of ballistics.

BBroadside
July 2, 2011, 02:06 PM
I've often wondered how short-barrelled shotguns and AOWs would have developed in the total absence of legal interference. Anyone know if there are any countries that don't have special regs for these weapons? I was wondering what home-grown equivalents to the Serbu there were - not for import to the US of course, but to satisfy my own academic curiosity.

ATCDoktor
July 2, 2011, 02:17 PM
I read here a lot as well as other forums, but haven't posted on THR before today. It seems to me like a really big risk to be traveling state to state with either an AOW or SBS.

There's no more risk traveling with properly owned NFA items as there is with Title 1 firearms. It is the Travelers responsibility to determine legality of the items at the end destination.

The advantage of owning an AOW over an SBS (when travelling) is that an ATF form 5330.20 (Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Firearms) need not be processed to transport them.

Copied from the ATF Form 4:

Interstate Movement: If the firearm identified in item 4 is a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device, the registrant may be required by 18 U.S.C. ß 922(a)(4) to obtain permission from ATF prior to any transportation in interstate or foreign commerce.

For Suppressrs and AOW's there's no need to secure permission from ATF to transport them interstate.

If you get stopped driving through or have a wreck in a city where NFA weapons are illegal to possess, then what?

With respect to Federal Law, if your end destination is a Non Ban state your covered by the FOPA of 1986 (Firearms Owners Protection Act).

The act specifically allows bonafide travellers whose end destination is outside a ban State, to transport Title 1 and Title II firearms through Ban States to their destination. If you have wreck in a ban state/city, your covered.

Fedral Law is going to trump state law for the bonifide traveler as long as the weapon is stowed and transported within the spirit of the law.

An example of not following the spirit of the Law would be me transporting my AOW (on my person) in the shoulder holster pictured above (not locked up or similarly secured) through a Ban State and I get in a wreck or similarly interact with law encorcement. The FOPA would not apply in this case and I could be charged for possession of a banned firearm.

Properly stowed and secured you're good for travelling through ban states/cities per the FOPA.

Insayn
July 2, 2011, 03:11 PM
We use those for breaching doors, locks and cages with various frangible rounds. We also have to run through an annual 5 round qualification course at 15 yards. For there size it serves its purpose as we use them for.

TechPrepper
July 3, 2011, 01:13 AM
Thanks for all the great feedback everyone! I feel as though I have a really good idea of the weapons strengths and weaknesses. It may not be the perfect weapon but it is an interesting one. I've placed an order and I'll post back once I've had a chance to use it personally.

dprice3844444
July 3, 2011, 01:38 AM
have the barrel threaded for a choke.that will tighten the pattern.

kd7nqb
July 6, 2011, 10:43 AM
I like the Serbu's as a fun gun but your talking about taking it all over for backpacking, transporting NFA items across state lines is a pain in the ass. I think a large revolver is exactly what you want. I would go with .44mag or even something like the Ruger Alaskan in .454c or .45lc heck go with a .500s&w magnum if you wanted to

TechPrepper
July 6, 2011, 04:49 PM
I like the Serbu's as a fun gun but your talking about taking it all over for backpacking, transporting NFA items across state lines is a pain in the ass. I think a large revolver is exactly what you want. I would go with .44mag or even something like the Ruger Alaskan in .454c or .45lc heck go with a .500s&w magnum if you wanted to
Another great point. I'm a Gun Addict and it doesn't take much to get my interest going in obscure weapons like this. Add to that the fact that the Government doesn't want to make it easy for me to own one makes me want it that much more (sad I know). I've ordered the Super Shorty, and I'll be glad to own one. But given the feed back I certainly won't be taking it on our hikes. Perhaps this is the excuse I needed to go and get a S&W 500 or even more exotic ... a Desert Eagle 50 Cal :D

MasterSergeantA
July 6, 2011, 06:46 PM
I would recommend the Desert Eagle over the S&W. Much more pleasant (in a relative sense) to shoot.

Strykervet
July 6, 2011, 07:13 PM
The Deagle doesn't compare to the Smith .500. Not even close. Now the .44mag is the same, but the .500 is more comparable to the .50 Beowulf AR rifle than it is the Deagle. In fact, some rounds are more powerful than the Beowulf. That .500 is no joke. At close range, I bet it would do more damage than that Serbu would with slugs, AND you get two extra rounds.

mr.scott
July 6, 2011, 08:38 PM
Have you tried the centurion 2" buck shot in this? It should give you an extra round to fit in it

jmorris
July 6, 2011, 11:20 PM
If you didn't want to pay $700 for one that is an AOW you can build one on a form 1 as an SBS off a base $200 870 but the stamp is $200 at that point. If you have the skills you still are money ahead.

JShirley
July 7, 2011, 02:33 PM
I think you'd have less hassle and more utility with a 4 or 5" barrel stainless revolver in .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, or .454 Casull.

You could go with a Ruger Redhawk (http://www.gunreports.com/gow/handguns/44-Magnum-Redhawk-Ruger-Wheelgun-Revolver_46-1.html), a sweet-shooting Ruger Blackhawk (http://www.gunsamerica.com/968684814/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Pistols/Ruger-Single-Action-Revolvers/Blackhawk-Type/Ruger_Blackhawk_KS_45N_44_mag_Stainless_Steel.htm) (both would be practically indestructible), or you could go with the classic S&W 629 (http://www.gunsamerica.com/970778713/Guns/Pistols/Smith-Wesson-Revolvers/Model-629/SMITH_AND_WESSON_MODEL_629_4_44MAG_NE.htm).

I have 3 4" N Frames, so you can see which way I'd be inclined to lean. ;)

John

Joe Demko
July 7, 2011, 03:49 PM
I concur with JShirley, but I'd go so far as to say that a even 10mm or .357 would be generally more useful. However, I don't want to derail this into (yet another) discussion of the indestructible nature of bears and other mythical creatures.

jmorris
July 9, 2011, 09:59 AM
[QUOTE][I think you'd have less hassle and more utility with a 4 or 5" barrel stainless revolver in .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, or .454 Casull./QUOTE]

Maybe but anyone can do that. Also, if you already have at least one of each of the above, why not?

JShirley
July 10, 2011, 04:49 PM
True, but you have no evidence that's the case here.

Prince Yamato
July 11, 2011, 01:08 AM
I think you'd have less hassle and more utility with a 4 or 5" barrel stainless revolver in .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, or .454 Casull.

True, but he wouldn't look as cool. :neener:

Cop Bob
July 11, 2011, 08:30 PM
I too think that a pistol or revolver would be more practical. However the Serbu would be a neat novelty... I took a CNC programming class from the guy who does all of Serbu's programming.. we had a great time once we figured out we were both gun guys.... I was my understanding from speaking with him, that it was originally designed or intended as a breaching gun and dignitary protection piece.... Never shot one THAT short, i would imagine that the muzzle blast, especially at night would be a little discerning..

jmorris
July 12, 2011, 09:27 AM
As a rule shotguns use fast pistol powders, not as much blast as you would think. Nothing like a 7" .223.

45-ACP
July 14, 2011, 11:48 PM
...

jmorris
July 15, 2011, 12:59 AM
Exellent right up for your first post but it is the NFA fourm, good or bad its the only time that for $200 under 18 is OK.

45-ACP
July 15, 2011, 01:14 AM
...

45-ACP
July 15, 2011, 01:19 AM
...

subguns69
July 17, 2011, 07:09 AM
Great shooter have a Mossberg model muzzle blast isn't that bad. Every time I take it out people are curious about it let them shoot it and they love it.

Ironman
July 17, 2011, 05:05 PM
I have one and its great for its intended purpose. To put big holes in things at close distances. I found that the Winchester PDX1 self defense shells hold a good pattern and do the best job in terms of self defense within 50ft. I keep mine in th 2nd drawer of my night stand and a handgun in the top drawer. I like having options.

I shoot it towards the end of this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQzyjGwbI0M

waywar
August 17, 2011, 04:50 PM
I use mine for backpacking and another for my BOB. Compact & light enough for what it is and I have no issues with range & different loads. The shotgun is the most versatile weapon you can own. It's really personal choice. Now, I will admit, I'm 6'4" and weigh in at around 280lbs so the recoil is not really an issue unless you load the serbu with 3" mag loads not using the knoxx recoil absorbing grip. Your hand will pain! I carry 30-90 rounds depending on where I'm going. For home defense I use a 9 shot 00, for the woods I carry 3 different types of shells including the one mentioned, plus #4, 7-1/2 shells all 2-3/4". I disagree with the fact that the handguns rule with this issue. Unless your well qualified and accurate with the handgun the scattergun will/can save your life. Of course I'm talking "ass to risk" scenarios. Here's a few pics of my shotties...and yes, I'm a shotgun guy...most of the time.
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG1474.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/100_2623.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/DSC01699.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/20110206212544s90img250.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/8701_full_right_1.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG1487.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/S12andBuddys.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/DSCF0142-1.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG1481.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG1166.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG0730.jpg
http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne
[IMG]http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad327/Wayne_Warner/My%20Guns/CIMG1009.jpg

:cool:

armoredman
August 17, 2011, 05:28 PM
Nice to see a couple of rifles there at the end, was getting worried. :)
I like the pump with the birds head - that is NFA as well, correct? I confess, I don't even own a single shotgun, but a SXS 20 for my wife is one thing we have thought about. For the scenario of backpacking, I might even consider a Mad Maximized SBS as OH-NO bear medicine. That Serbu looks like murder - that Knoxx grip almost looks like it slides? IS that a single point sling attachment at the back of it?

waywar
August 17, 2011, 06:19 PM
Some of them are NFA guns. I have the Winchester police defender in a 20ga as well, although not a true defender it's the most pleasure to shoot. The serbu fires like a 44mag and the knoxx grip takes about 50% of the recoil away, and yes, it does slide but you don't notice it. It handles great with one hand or two. I have the standard grip on both at the moment and honestly the recoil doesn't bother me. Yes, the knoxx breacher grip also has a single point sling attachment on the back. They are great little guns.

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